The Classic Doctor Who Thread (1963 to 1989/1996)

[By Jove its holmes]

Fact of the Day: Tom Baker was the first DW series lead who wasn’t a veteran of the Second World War. He had the mercy of a late birth.

Topic

[Professor Flibble]

The Two Doctors is an odd case where I feel Holmes was too restrained in some areas (forcing the Sontarans and Seville into it), but also far too unrestrained in others. 

I think Seville was a mandate by JNT cause he wanted another story set abroad. Holmes wanted it to be set in New Orleans originally, but it was too expensive

[Rushy]

One of Rushy’s favorites I presume.
Hey, I like them too!

They have many functions, including predictive behaviour technology. The woman wearing them is able to guess how we’re most likely to behave in any given situation. 

[Professor Flibble]

I’ve heard a few people call Peri annoying and idk, I only feel sorry for her. Half the time, she’s being lusted over, the other half she’s with this man who’s constantly criticising the way she speaks

[Rushy]

Like Adric, she was best suited for the Doctor she had initially, and spent far too long with the one she wasn’t suited with. 

[Professor Flibble]

Like Adric, she was best suited for the Doctor she had initially, and spent far too long with the one she wasn’t suited with. 

It’s funny because Tegan suited Colin far more.

As in, the Doctor, not her cousin.

[Ben Saunders]

I think my first Colin was The Mysterious Planet, by which point they’ve gotten more of a rapport with each other and aren’t constantly putting the other down. But the very worst of it is in The Twin Dilemma, for sure, which is just so genuinely horrendous it did permanent damage to the program.

[Ben Saunders]

Such a cunty Sontaran.

[Doomitron]

I think Seville was a mandate by JNT cause he wanted another story set abroad.

Yellow Fever and How to Cure It was also going to be set in Singapore as another mandate by JNT, there’s also theories that Holmes was a eugenicist from the talk of the Androgums in The Two Doctors in some circles, I don’t know how true that is but it is worth pointing out the most racist episode of Classic Who is The Talons of Weng-Chieng and he was also going to write an episode called…Yellow Fever and How to Cure It, so its not a huge stretch.

[Ben Saunders]

Doctor Who in general is a little eugenicist, all the talk about primitive species vs. civilised races etc is quite common in a lot of stories, given that the show is made in post-colonial Britain, it strives to be above all that stuff but it’s still written by people who were brought up in the Great British Empire and a lot of those attitudes are unconscious and difficult to stamp out completely. The Doctor is an Edwardian gentleman going through the galaxy civilising lesser races, and this is most evident with Leela where that was the whole idea. Talons is a curious script because again the Doctor seems to present himself as above all of this racism stuff and rather disapproving of it at times, but in other cases seemingly goes along with it. He offers a very non-confrontational “is it really” sort of response to somebody saying something racist if I recall, but how much of that was Tom Baker (who previously looked quite dodgy as the villain in The Golden Voyage of Sinbad) vs. Robert Holmes or the director I don’t know. The script would still be somewhat questionable without the white actor in yellowface as the villain, but we might be able to have more of a discussion about tropes and the trappings of “yellow peril” fiction that was popular at the time had that not happened. There’s a good documentary on the Talons DVD about it.

Pat Troughton at some point wanted to “black up” for the second Doctor. And there has been the odd example of black/yellowface in the black and white era. This stuff is fairly ingrained in the DNA of the show, the idea that science/enlightenment is inherently good and primitivism and religion and tradition is all bad is a very 1900s White British attitude. I don’t go so far as to say DOCTOR WHO IS RACIST but all of that stuff is in there, deep down.

[Rushy]

I’ve always seen the Doctor’s aristocratic origins as being integral to his character. Hartnell at the start would fit right in with the Time Lords we see in the War Games. 

Sure, what really matters is that he earnestly tries to be more than that, but it absolutely is a huge chunk of who he is and how he sees the world. 

I also disagree with the notion that the Doctor – and the show in general – has to be of the densest moral fiber. It’s not Superman. And even he has his flaws. 

[Professor Flibble]

I have an issue with people problematising the idea of a posh, Edwardian-style Doctor as though it’s an outdated idea. Like something we should move on from. No, it’s a vibe. I love all those waistcoats and cravats and things, the character is supposed to be timeless. It doesn’t even need to be a white man wearing them.

[Professor Flibble]

I have an issue with people problematising the idea of a posh, Edwardian-style Doctor as though it’s an outdated idea. Like something we should move on from. No, it’s a vibe. I love all those waistcoats and cravats and things, the character is supposed to be timeless. It doesn’t even need to be a white man wearing them.

Btw this isn’t to say I’m against them not doing it, but I do sort of miss that interpretation of the character these days. The proper professory vibe.

[Technopeasant]

[Professor Flibble]

Unironically, yes

[Ben Saunders]

It’s not the garb that’s problematic, it’s the idea that Europeans are “civilised” and those from the outer colonies are “savage”. You can wear a crevat if you want to.

[Professor Flibble]

It’s not the garb that’s problematic, it’s the idea that Europeans are “civilised” and those from the outer colonies are “savage”. You can wear a crevat if you want to.

Oh yeah, no, just I do see people make out the idea of an old-fashioned Doctor is in and of itself a bit old hat. I want a Doctor who calls people “my dear” again.

[Ben Saunders]

The Doctor gets in not one, but TWO Bond one-liners over Shockeye’s death.

[Ben Saunders]

Timelash? More like expositionlash.

[Unrumble]

Timelash? More like expositionlash.

I’ll never not be reminded of The Completely Useless Encyclopaedia informing me that Timelash is an anagram of ‘lame shit’.

11 year old me was thrilled.

[Technopeasant]

“There are no perfect, standard English anagrams that use all 8 letters of the word TIMEWAVE. However, you can form several smaller words by rearranging subsets of its letters.”

[Ian Symes]

Meat View?

[Flap Jack]

Meatview will be Doug Naylor’s Deltarune.

[Ben Saunders]

I beg your pardon?

[Doomitron]

Colin’s doing, he liked throwing words out like that so kids would have to find a thesaurus to decode what he had said. It’s probably why he was a fan of whenever Pip and Jane Baker were writing an episode for him.

[Rushy]

I fucking love Darrow so much. I’m terribly sad I never got to meet the man. 

[Ben Saunders]

I said “save your breath for the time lash, Doctor, most people depart with a scream” along with him like I was singing an old song. He is delectable. Once they get all the insane constant exposition out of the way this story is actually pretty enjoyable. I like HG Wells and the amulet lady gives a very interesting sort of detatched, airy performance.

[Rushy]

I said “save your breath for the time lash, Doctor, most people depart with a scream” along with him like I was singing an old song. He is delectable.

[Ben Saunders]

This lady barely even touches the rope but she’s all “help him! pull! he’s falling!”, useless woman

[Ben Saunders]

Kind of fucked up how the Doctor defeats the Borad by calling him an ugly lil mfer nobody could possibly love because he’s so ugly. It’s always felt a little mean. After they both re-appear via two deus ex machinas, only one of which they bother to explain. What a story.

[Ben Saunders]

Revelation of the Daleks… never liked this one. Roy Skelton not one of the better Dalek voices. The DJ is cringe.

[Doomitron]

Don’t just say “the DJ” like that isn’t Mr. Balowski you’re talking about. Yeah, I’ve always thought Revelation was a bit overrated, I do like it but it’s pretty heavily carried on vibes.

[Ben Saunders]

Colin’s doing, he liked throwing words out like that so kids would have to find a thesaurus to decode what he had said. It’s probably why he was a fan of whenever Pip and Jane Baker were writing an episode for him.

I really liked “another expedition into the realms of duplicity”, which was apparently the actor’s contribution. 

Eric Saward is very funny in the behind the scenes stuff, “oh look I’m blaming the producer again”. He does a very good job of deflecting blame for anything away from himself, he really makes you believe that this stuff is somehow bad just because of JNT or the director or the inexperienced writers, things are only ever “it might have been me” at a push. I do like his honesty though, saying The Two Doctors is solid but not Holmes’ best work, and that even the greats can falter. His point that bad stories come to be viewed as worse than they are and good stories come to be viewed as masterpieces largely because it’s easy to build upon a pre-concieved reputation is very salient. A lot of the bad stuff isn’t as bad as people say, though some of it is, and even Caves of Androzani has that pointless monster in it (apparently Saward’s idea funnily enough).

[Technopeasant]

Honestly a lot of the 80s making of documentaries feel rather one sided because JNT died before they could interview him.

[Warbodog]

Roy Skelton not one of the better Dalek voices.

Impossible to unhear as Zippy if over 35, and presumably at time all the Zippy Dalek episodes were broadcast.

[Doomitron]

I really liked “another expedition into the realms of duplicity”, which was apparently the actor’s contribution.

“There’s nothing you can do to prevent the catharsis of spurious morality!” from The Ultimate Foe is my “The quest is the quest.”

[Ben Saunders]

Honestly a lot of the 80s making of documentaries feel rather one sided because JNT died before they could interview him.

He was interviewed shortly before he died and he does get some say in some of them. The story behind him trying his damndest to get Greatest Show in the Galaxy made is very impressive. It’s not like he didn’t care about the show. Though he did want out numerous times and the BBC either would cancel the show in that case or simply wouldn’t let him leave, which is all very fucked up. And he did fire Colin Baker over the phone, which lacks tact. He did make a lot of questionable decisions in hiring, costuming, going off to conventions and doing pantos with your two main leads instead of letting them attend rehearsals despite Nicola Bryant protesting, etc. The decisions remain, we just don’t get to hear them rationalised by his talking head on a DVD. 

[Rushy]

In my mind, the only real problem with JNT is that he was forced to stay long past his time. 

Despite his eccentricities, JNT was an old-school producer who climbed the ranks and was largely faithful to what came before. And he was also smart enough to quit alongside his lead actor. Just like his predecessors. If he’d left with Davison like he wanted to, I think he would be remembered with fondness. 

Having his career stalled for a decade at the threat of his favourite show being cancelled can only have caused massive disillusionment, perhaps even depression. So it’s hardly surprising that his decisions became erratic. He was also older and losing his grip on the zeitgeist. 

The best decision he ever made was hiring Andrew Cartmel and going largely hands off for McCoy’s run. 

[Technopeasant]

The story behind him trying his damndest to get Greatest Show in the Galaxy made is very impressive.

Definitely the one which put him in the best light yes.

It’s honestly a lot like Rick Berman where he gets blamed for killing Star Trek after spending a decade making Star Trek. And sure for making dubious decisions but those will inherently pile up with time.

Certainly more explicable than whatever the hell happened with Russel T. Davies…

[Ben Saunders]

This Revelation stuff is just deeply unpleasant, horrible shit. What the hell was Eric Saward’s problem?

[Ben Saunders]

Doctor look out, about 25 grams of obvious polystyrene is about to split in two near you!

[Doomitron]

JNT deserves far more respect than he gets, and I find it deeply stupid when people try bringing his name up as some kind of lame scapegoat defense for RTD2.

[Rushy]

JNT dominates over every modern showrunner, including Moffat

[Doomitron]

Wouldn’t go that far now, he’s certainly better than Chibnall and RTD2 though.

[Ben Saunders]

They keep doing the “you know how hard it is to find good staff these days” gag this season. In fact I think they did it twice in Revelation.

[Ben Saunders]

Tasambeker is an atrocious performance. The DJ isn’t very good either. The effects are so shit I don’t even know what’s really supposed to be happening. This story makes me unhappy.

[Doomitron]

Judging off your reactions, am I to take it Revelation is your least favorite of 22? That’s pretty interesting since most people would call it the best and normally crap all over the rest of it.

[Ben Saunders]

Attack of the Cybermen, Mark of the Rani and Timelash are all quite flawed but enjoyable. Attack moves at pace and has a confidence to it, Mark has Ainley and O’Mara and all that ridiculous dialogue (and I love Peri’s dress), and I actually think Timelash is alright, the Borad, HG Wells and Paul Darrow especially. The Two Doctors is also flawed, weirdly racist and unnecessarily violent but it has Two, Jamie and Robert Holmes at work so there are almost unavoidable moments of greatness. Revelation of the Daleks is just Saward at his worst, nihilistic and sadistic like his other stories but without any of the excitement or fun. He’s really huffing his own farts at this point with his double acts and his sidelining the Doctor and his black humour. Pointless violence again that isn’t even staged well. Graeme Harper did a brilliant job on Androzani but appears to have lost it here. No need for the Daleks to even be in it, really, it doesn’t say anything about them and the voices are shit. The white and gold look is magnificent, though, they haven’t looked so good since the black and white days. Davros could easily be somebody else.

I forgot to mention Vengeance on Varos, but we all know that one is quite good. Especially Sil, and the meta cliffhanger.

[Ben Saunders]

Listening to Slipback for the first time, which was made during the hiatus before Trial of a Time Lord. Why I’m subjecting myself to more Saward I don’t know. But I like the computer in this one.

[Ben Saunders]

This is a little lightweight, but it’s quite pleasant. Nicola Bryant sounds like she’s playing slightly younger, higher pitched.

An “it all looks the same” gag from Peri on radio! Innovative.

[Doomitron]

But I like the computer in this one.

I had to turn it off after so long because the Betty Boop voice drives me up the wall.

[Author]

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