The Classic Doctor Who Thread (1963 to 1989/1996)

[By Jove its holmes]

Fact of the Day: Tom Baker was the first DW series lead who wasn’t a veteran of the Second World War. He had the mercy of a late birth.

Topic

[Ben Kirkham]

Anybody working on reconstructions or animations (official or fan-made) always understands that when/if the originals are found, they outrank everything else. You’re making them as substitutes for the originals. His mind works in the most bizarre ways.

He’s the sort of person who’d receive a gold ingot and then discard it for the paper mache version he made in the 2nd year of Primary School. He made it so in his kingdom it’s the best, regardless of what the world thinks. It’s like the Emperor’s New Clothes.

Similar mentality to a bloke across the pond, really…

[Ben Kirkham]

Anyway, I’m tremendously pleased about this discovery and I really hope it paves the way for more in the not-so-distant future.

[Stephen Abootman]

A Levine ‘get in there and make it about you’ post is the cherry on top of today’s news.

[Ben Saunders]

Phillip Morris is a prick too. Maybe the missing episodes of Dr Who are cursed and turn you into a hateful bastard if you come into contact with them.

[Flap Jack]

Levine is clearly deluded if he thinks that anyone is going to do a side by side comparison between his AI recons and the real broadcast episodes and conclude “wow, they’re almost perfect!”.

Even if his recons genuinely were that good, somehow, him acting like the return of the real episodes is only mildly exciting because he and his small clique of paying sycophants already have access to recons they’re satisfied with is nauseatingly selfish. He can pretend his reconstructions are perfect replacements or he can keep them to himself, but not both.

[Jonathan Capps]

Levine is clearly deluded

A statement true for at least the last 40 years

[Technopeasant]

And no Technopeasant, it’s now at 5/12 episodes recovered. We already had episodes 2, 5 and 10, and now we have 1 and 3.

The BBC was being misleading…

The intervening episode, Day of Armageddon, was found in 2004 by a former BBC engineer, meaning fans now have the first three instalments of The Daleks’ Master Plan arc.

I was aware there is a well regarded fan staging of Mission to the Unknown though.

Can’t say I am unhappy to be wrong though.

[Technopeasant]

I have felt the best way to do the reconstructions would have been to just commision an animated spin off series called The Past Doctor Adventures (or something less shit) and mix them in with new material voiced by surviving Doctors ala Big Finish. Then we’d have gotten a set amount each season, the style and quality would be consistent, and the funding would not be entirely at the mercy of the shrinking if diehard home market.

[International Debris]

Phillip Morris is a prick too. Maybe the missing episodes of Dr Who are cursed and turn you into a hateful bastard if you come into contact with them.

Levene has done amazing things for Who – he pretty much single handedly recovered the first Daleks serial, and was the first champion for recovering lost stories; and while it was abysmal, Doctor in Distress came from a good place – but lives in his own deranged mind and has some typical-for-his-age bigotry.

Morris is a truly abhorrent human being with elevated levels of bigotry, and has taken far, far more credit for lost episode recoveries than he actually deserves. He makes Levene look like a pleasant, reasonable guy 

[International Debris]

I always get the surnames of Ian Levine and New Adventures editor Bex Levene mixed up, but I’m not going to edit my post because editing always fucks up the paragraph formatting. When are you going to sort that out, Cappsy?

[Jonsmad]

I’m not as big a fan of doctor who as I am of Red Dwarf, because predominantly I am a comedy fan and thats my watch time. So therefore I’m not massively into who fandom as a thing either, and the many issues it has, because I feel really I’m at the very edge only occasionally looking. But yeah of course I’m aware of some this ^ persons attitudes/rants and some of those who are invested more in who fandom reactions to that, and I want to say early I’m not posting about that in either regard. I’m only perhaps controversially, (but not intentionally) posting about the fact I personally don’t find AI a complete abomination in this regard as many do. For sure it grates elsewhere a tiny bit, I don’t defend as much as  I just have a truth that it’s given me enjoyment in completing this (more minor than most) interest I have in this show in its entirety.


I own classic who on dvd, so it has been a journey and some are faves and the majority have been more one watch tick list viewing for me and I’ve never yet got around to watching the show in order, like I know our Ian S  has done with a brilliant blog. I may do that one day. I may read much more of that blog too if it’s still around. 
Some of the stuff pre baker definitely bored the arse off me, was ropey, drawn out, laughable or at least by the time I saw it so late in the day, I wasn’t so able to embrace any of it the way Toby Hadoke say did on bbc breakfast this week, clearly such a big thing in his life! He gets it in a way I never will.


Dr who was always a mixed bag I think most would agree. Even those with this deeper love of the show and its creatives. But despite the freaky weirdness of AI, I was at a point where cartoon efforts were slowly undeniably reinventing the experience of utilising soundtracks, with commercial uncertainty of approaches and timescales the result. Great as they were on the watch tick list, I still to this day havnt got around to owning all of those ones.
neither was the audio narrations enough  of a draw, for what are many lesser interesting stories.  I enjoyed the invasion animation etc but the toy maker certainly wasn’t what I wanted from that story, based on trailers, and it was one I had bothered to buy an audio CD of  as it peeked my interest during the era i bought these dvds. 


Then the internet gave the previously VHS guarded world of loose cannon to fans in full but I still couldn’t manage to sit through all their brilliant static attempts to add visual story telling back through tele-snaps and more. Respectful ad they were and I do applaud them. AI may be worth the fear in future employment worlds and i fully get some reactions of it looking like dogshit when over used online in clips to some people who are demanding it now looks as good as real video, with all the subtlety of direction, actor nuance and such. Of course it doesn’t do that. But as a tool to just lift atmosphere of story telling and bring a vague sense of moment of movement to a lost element in real time, in the same way subtiltes tell a story quickly on screen etc. I found it good enough to complete my history of once watching this tv. 


I can suspend reality with some dodgy movements just as much as I had to with a hand covered in bubblewrap being some really important disease say.  I’m a Douglas Adams fan much bigger than I am the rest of doctor who he didn’t touch so AI Shada is probably my fave version to be honest, and that’s a story than along with red dwarf I care about so much I had it quoted at me wedding 


So it’s wonderful wonderful news that two more episodes will be viewable again in the best possible way this April. When it feels like a much better revisiting for me of that story that’s because a lot of elements including AI gave me a familiar sense of it before I viewed these discoveries for the first time. I think there is an inevitability to this approach and although I’ve not yet seen it in red dwarf fandom etc.* I think some year soon a fan will do Bodysnatcher etc. 


( * in fact amusingly I saw a red dwarf commodore 64 game go online today, isn’t that the mostly timely counterpoint to this.) 


I think Dalek masterplan is an excellent romp of a story and fan service of the show first time since the second Dalek story Returned a fave enemy. 

[Dave]

Highly amusing.

*irony meter explodes*

[Flap Jack]

Haha, yes, I saw this too. Apparently there’s been a newer version of Levine’s recon since this one, but still, the difference is so stark it’s laughable that he would try to sell it as a 1:1 recreation.

The lighting, the positioning, the movement… it would be extremely generous to say the AI recon even has direction. Just the one shot where the Doctor says “Daleks!” says it all. The original has a dramatic pan right from the daleks to The Doctor hidden in the darkened foreground as he quickly turns away from them; the recon has a hard cut to The Doctor brightly lit and in the dead centre of the frame with no visual indication of where he is in relation to them. The real Doctor looks legitimately shocked, the AI Doctor looks like “daleks” is just something he exclaimed in mild frustration while trying to squeeze out a particularly stubborn turd.

Of course it’s not fair to expect a recon to perfectly match the real episode when it was made without the real episode as reference (or at least it wouldn’t be if Levine didn’t suggest that it would), but animated efforts both official and unofficial try their best to actually recreate the staging, direction and cinematography. It’s sad that IL would convince himself that this way was better just because it technically has a live-action look to it. As an upgrade to basic telesnap recons the output is genuinely pretty decent (if you can get over the uncanny quality to the facial expression and mouth movement), but I’m pretty sure even the maligned Web of Fear Episode 3 animation runs rings around this.

[Technopeasant]

I think AI does have potential for enhanching the telesnap reconstructions but you’d need to actually train it on existing episodes first, actually learn Hartnell and Troughton’s mannerisms. In that sense, the more recovered the more viable it could become.

[Nick R]

 *irony meter explodes*

I couldn’t see the comment in that screenshot, but this one is still there:

[Dave]

Maybe he can use AI to create a pram that still has his toys in it.

[Technopeasant]

If anything it’d have been a bit awkward if it was the two missing episodes of The Crusades that were recovered, if only for making the Season 2 Bluray out of date.

[Ben Saunders]

I hope they find that, because I really enjoy the first episode, but just can’t get into the recon.

[Ian Symes]

If anything it’d have been a bit awkward if it was the two missing episodes of The Crusades that were recovered, if only for making the Season 2 Bluray out of date.

Either way, there’s blacking up involved.

[Warbodog]

Levine could have done all of this decades ago with the same effect if he’d got someone to paint their face grey and overlay their mouth lip-syncing to the actors.

[Ben Saunders]

Either way, there’s blacking up involved.

Mavic Chen is a bit yellowface-y in Daleks Master Plan as well, he doesn’t do the accent but his skin is coloured and his name is Chen. Luckily it’s in black and white so you can pretend he’s red or something.

[Flap Jack]

I’ll reserve judgement until I see Mavic Selby.

[International Debris]

Why does it look like Levine’s trained the AI on David Bradley’s performance of the First Doctor rather than Hartnell’s?

[Unrumble]

I’ll reserve judgement until I see Mavic Selby.

Let’s see Ian Levine do BITR: Redux, using AI to include Mark Williams. At least then he could say it’s something ‘new’ and different to the original. 

Now I’m wondering what Remastered would have looked like had Doug had access to 2026 technology…

[Rushy]

Now I’m wondering what Remastered would have looked like had Doug had access to 2026 technology…

He has a lot less money now. The BBC supported him for Remastered, did they not? 

[International Debris]

He’d still try and push beyond whatever budget he had probably. But it would be interesting to see a remaster in line with the Dave era.

[Technopeasant]

The AI recon shown there is actually better than I expected but that is because I had realistically low expectations. And yes, not that better than just animating mouths over much of it. I am sure comparing one of the animated recons to a recovered episode would also prove jarring though.

[Asclepius]

I was so psyched to wake up to this news!
And no Technopeasant, it’s now at 5/12 episodes recovered. We already had episodes 2, 5 and 10, and now we have 1 and 3. Animating 7 episodes for a release would be a big ask, but they did do it for The Evil of the Daleks, so maybe? It would be a bit different though because for most animation releases they animated every episode including ones that didn’t need it, just for consistency.
Honestly I was optimistically assuming they’d animate all missing episodes eventually anyway, but this definitely helps things.

Always look at the serials that *haven’t* been animated yet. As it suggests that people ‘high up’ may know of the existence of certain episodes. That’s why I’m holding out how that the Smugglers exists in some form or other, with it not having been animated yet…

[Asclepius]

Ian Levine, then. A prick, yes. Worse than Morris? No. Levine’s been positive about most of the modern show, and even some episodes of Jodie and Ncuti. Let’s look at his credit.

1978: Ian Levine organised a trip to the film vault at Villiers House in London, He found 79 episodes, most of which didn’t exist in the newly formed Film & Videotape Library. Ian’s quick reactions saved these film prints from destruction, as, according to the story, they were sitting there just waiting to be junked. Ian had located An Unearthly Child 1 2 3 4, The Daleks 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, The Edge of Destruction 1 2, The Keys of Marinus 1 2 3 4 5 6, The Aztecs 1 2 3 4, The Sensorites 1 2 3 4 5 6, Planet of Giants 1 2 3, The Dalek Invasion of Earth 1 2 3 4 5 6, The Rescue 1 2, The Romans 1 2 3 4, The Web Planet 1 2 3 4 5 6, The Space Museum 1 2 3 4, The Chase 1 2 3 4 5 6, The Ark 1 2 3 4, The Gunfighters 1 2 3 4, The Mind Robber 1 2 3 4 5 & The Seeds of Death 1 2 3 4 5 6.

Some of these already existed in the archives. So what he’d found were unique prints of: The Daleks 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, The Edge of Destruction 1 2, The Keys of Marinus 1 2 3 4 6, The Aztecs 1 2 3 4, The Sensorites 1 2 3 4 5 6, Planet of Giants 1 2 3, The Dalek Invasion of Earth 1 2 3 4 6, The Rescue 1 2, The Romans 2 4, The Web Planet 1 3 4 5 6, The Space Museum 1 3 4, The Chase 1 2 3 4 5 6, The Ark 1 2 4, The Gunfighters 1 2 3, The Mind Robber 1 2 3 4 5 & The Seeds of Death 3 5.

How many of these had dupe prints found in the years to come? Well, probably better to do vice versa. Of these 79 that Ian found, how many have *never* had a dupe found?
The Daleks 1 2 3 4 6 7, The Edge of Destruction 1 2, The Keys of Marinus 1 2 3 4 6 (a dupe was found of this Ep 6 – but it was by Ian. And it mightn’t be real), The Aztecs 1 2 3 4, The Sensorites 1 2 3 4 5 6, Planet of Giants 1 2 3, The Dalek Invasion of Earth 1 2 3 4 6, The Rescue 1 2, The Romans 2 4, The Space Museum 3 4, The Chase 1 2 3 4 5 6, The Ark 1 2 4, The Gunfighters 1 2 3, The Mind Robber 1 2 3 4 5 & The Seeds of Death 3.

So, in the grand scheme of things, I’ll cope with his crap. Far outstrips Morris’ own hauls. Imagine not having The Daleks, for starters…

 

[Dave]

Levine’s been positive about most of the modern show, and even some episodes of Jodie and Ncuti.

I thought he said the show was dead to him after they cast a woman.

[Warbodog]

At least we didn’t play into his game and make the recovered episodes discussion mostly about him.

[Dave]

1978: Ian Levine organised a trip to the film vault at Villiers House in London, He found 79 episodes, most of which didn’t exist in the newly formed Film & Videotape Library. Ian’s quick reactions saved these film prints from destruction, as, according to the story, they were sitting there just waiting to be junked.

[Flap Jack]

When all is said and done Ian Levine’s contributions to Doctor Who in the past (as exaggerated and not fully verified as they may be) will hopefully outweigh his more recent bad behaviour, but doing good things doesn’t entitle you to be a shit.

Right now his position in the missing episodes preservation community is basically this:

[Rushy]

Even if his contributions happened today, they would not make bad behaviour acceptable. It is sad how many people sabotage themselves by thinking they have the right to be an ass, when in fact that kind of attitude will cause others to ignore them even if they’re right about something. 

[Stephen Abootman]

Of these 79 that Ian found, how many have *never* had a dupe found?The Daleks 1 2 3 4 6 7, The Edge of Destruction 1 2, The Keys of Marinus 1 2 3 4 6 (a dupe was found of this Ep 6 – but it was by Ian. And it mightn’t be real), The Aztecs 1 2 3 4, The Sensorites 1 2 3 4 5 6, Planet of Giants 1 2 3, The Dalek Invasion of Earth 1 2 3 4 6, The Rescue 1 2, The Romans 2 4, The Space Museum 3 4, The Chase 1 2 3 4 5 6, The Ark 1 2 4, The Gunfighters 1 2 3, The Mind Robber 1 2 3 4 5 & The Seeds of Death 3. 

Not that it makes too much difference to anything but as confirmed by FiF here https://filmisfabulous.org.uk/statement-on-doctor-who/ they also found The Daleks Episode 2, The Daleks Episode 3, The Web Planet Episode 1, and The Chase Episode 1 alongside the 2 DMP episodes. I’m sure Levine will be delighted if they are better quality versions.

[Technopeasant]

So, in the grand scheme of things, I’ll cope with his crap. Far outstrips Morris’ own hauls. Imagine not having The Daleks, for starters…

I quite like The Sensorites.

[International Debris]

I suppose someone has to.

[Asclepius]

1978: Ian Levine organised a trip to the film vault at Villiers House in London, He found 79 episodes, most of which didn’t exist in the newly formed Film & Videotape Library. Ian’s quick reactions saved these film prints from destruction, as, according to the story, they were sitting there just waiting to be junked.

Lol at your picture quote. I’d taken the quote from the amazing timeline hosted by ‘Destruction of Time’. I’d actually taken a lot of the guff from the quote, but now you can have it in full as you mocked me so.

Once the restrictions for purchasing old Doctor Who episodes had been lifted, Ian Levine followed up on a rumour that more Dr Who episodes existed elsewhere, and organised a trip down to the film vault at Villiers House in London, where BBC Enterprises kept all their footage for overseas sales. What Ian found was a staggering 79 episodes, most of which didn’t exist in the newly formed Film & Videotape Library. Ian’s quick reactions saved these film prints from destruction, as, according to the story, they were sitting there just waiting to be junked. Ian had located…

[Asclepius]

Levine’s been positive about most of the modern show, and even some episodes of Jodie and Ncuti.
I thought he said the show was dead to him after they cast a woman.

I think he may have. But he’s a temperamental toddler type, and carried on watching. I remember him liking Rosa and Fugitive of the Judoon for starters.

[International Debris]

Yeah, he’s one of those people who dislikes most of the modern series but keeps not watching it, not through hate watching, but because he actually wants to like it, which is kind of admirable.

I mean he’s still a pompous twat who’s gone down a bit of an anti-woke rabbit hole so he can fuck off, but yeah, he’s still leagues above Morris in the terrible human being stakes.

[Asclepius]

Yeah, he’s one of those people who dislikes most of the modern series but keeps not watching it, not through hate watching, but because he actually wants to like it, which is kind of admirable.
I mean he’s still a pompous twat who’s gone down a bit of an anti-woke rabbit hole so he can fuck off, but yeah, he’s still leagues above Morris in the terrible human being stakes.

He’s always been pretty transparent about what he’s found too, seemingly. And that’s borne out over 45 or so years of doing that. Morris found 12 episodes, and one went ‘missing’. And then the place where they were found burnt down. It’s all just…odd.

If you think Levine’s a bit bad on the old ‘woke’ issue, then don’t even begin to read anything relating to Zionism etc. You could be dealing with Luke Akehurst.

[Ben Saunders]

but because he actually wants to like it, which is kind of admirable

This is unfortunately what keeps me going, the fact that there’s really nothing stopping somebody from just making something good. It wasn’t worth it for Chibnall’s era, but I’d say it was worth it for RTD2 up until The Reality War, episodes like Lux and uh… others were pleasant enough.

Anyway, Classic Who. I like The Sensorites. I even like The Keys of Marinus. I cannot imagine I’d like a telesnap reconstruction of either.

[Warbodog]

I only watched the 2023 RTD2 specials (I was going to say they were 2024 until checking). I liked the space station one, others served for the 2008 vibes they were probably going for, but I didn’t feel inspired to carry on with the proper series, especially with the general reaction (and because I’m a racist).

[Ben Saunders]

As horrendous of an idea as bringing back David Tennant as his THIRD canon regeneration of the Doctor was (and likely bringing him back AGAIN this Christmas), those episodes were quite good in my book. They satisfied the nostalgia remit and left me hopeful for the future. Oh how young I was.

I liked Church, Space Babies was OK actually, Devil’s Chord was a travesty, a few other episodes were alright. It’s mainly the finales and the lack of any character development that brings it down. Maybe if the episodes were given a few extra minutes they could actually have the characters emote and react and grow and all that shit they used to have them do.

[Rushy]

As horrendous of an idea as bringing back David Tennant as his THIRD canon regeneration of the Doctor was (and likely bringing him back AGAIN this Christmas), those episodes were quite good in my book. They satisfied the nostalgia remit and left me hopeful for the future. Oh how young I was. 

I felt the same way. There was a sense of grounding after the Chibnall era seemed so aimless. But as soon as I saw Church, I knew it wasn’t the great revival Russell had promised/hoped for. Eccleston and Tennant had at least brought a gravitas and pathos to the part that allowed the show to paper over a lot of cracks. With Gatwa, this “safety net” was lost. 

My prediction is that the Christmas special will be spent on reuniting Tennant (as the 14th Doctor) and Rose (somehow possessing the main Doctor’s body mid-regeneration). And it will end with Rose either returning to Pete’s World or both of them dying to finish the 15th Doctor’s regeneration. 

And if that’s the case, I will be fine with this modern era being over. It really has been a case of diminishing returns, with each Doctor’s era being a little worse than the one before it (albeit for very different reasons). 

[Dave]

Is it really rumoured that Tennant will be back again at Christmas? I hadn’t heard that. That would feel like a real admission of failure.

For me, overall, Smith is still the high point of NuWho, but either way we can agree the show’s best days of the modern era are quite far behind it at this point.

(I was also enthused by the initial RTD2 specials with Tennant and initial few Gatwa episodes, but the enthusiasm died out considerably by the end of his first season.)

Having said all that, it’s true that all it will take to make the show great again is someone to write fun stories with a charismatic lead. It’s definitely possible that the show will become good again, even quite soon, but for me I think that’s going to have to mean RTD stepping down and handing over to someone else entirely.

[Rushy]

Is it really rumoured that Tennant will be back again at Christmas? I hadn’t heard that. 

It’s the only remotely logical outcome to Piper’s return. 

[Warbodog]

For me, overall, Smith is still the high point of NuWho

A magical time when the children’s show I enjoyed with reservations suddenly felt like it was, ridiculously, aimed directly at me (or the 12 year old barely below the surface of 24 year old me). It felt like pretty much all the writers and guest stars of series 5 were from the world of sitcoms, so not surprising that it’d click with Red Dwarf fans on a deep level.

[Asclepius]

Levine is clearly deluded if he thinks that anyone is going to do a side by side comparison between his AI recons and the real broadcast episodes and conclude “wow, they’re almost perfect!”.
Even if his recons genuinely were that good, somehow, him acting like the return of the real episodes is only mildly exciting because he and his small clique of paying sycophants already have access to recons they’re satisfied with is nauseatingly selfish. He can pretend his reconstructions are perfect replacements or he can keep them to himself, but not both.

The paying thing is odd. I joined his Facebook group for a time, and he’d get so exciting about his recons that he’d end up posting them there anyway. I was curious about what they looked like…until I watched a few.

[Dave]

 A magical time when the children’s show I enjoyed with reservations suddenly felt like it was, ridiculously, aimed directly at me (or the 12 year old barely below the surface of 24 year old me). It felt like pretty much all the writers and guest stars of series 5 were from the world of sitcoms, so not surprising that it’d click with Red Dwarf fans on a deep level.

Yeah series 5 was just superb. Peak Who.

[Author]

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