The Classic Doctor Who Thread (1963 to 1989/1996)

[By Jove its holmes]

Fact of the Day: Tom Baker was the first DW series lead who wasn’t a veteran of the Second World War. He had the mercy of a late birth.

Topic

[Technopeasant]

I mean, they could still ask for some of the old hands back if the BBC does find a production partner.

[Flap Jack]

[Technopeasant]

He means Robot Holmes. We have the technology.

[Professor Flibble]

Been listening to all the Classic DVD commentaries in serial order, listening to The Dalek Invasion of Earth one rn.

The ones that are moderated are much better, particularly with Toby Hadoke, I find. The Aztecs one suffers from extended moments of silence where they just watch, and some of the same anecdotes and points get reiterated. I guess that’s inevitable when you’re bringing in these people 40-50 years after the point to commentate on separate stories across about 10-15 years. I think it’s about 3 times so far William Russell’s talked about the DeGaullek newspaper cartoon.

The Davison era commentaries tend to be the most entertaining, though that’s if you can handle their constant derision of the show. Tom Baker commentaries can be funny but also a bit frustrating with his absolute lack of memory or care of the production of the stories, especially past the Hinchcliffe/Holmes era.

[Rushy]

Terrance Dicks was an absolute godsend for DW audio commentaries.

[Ben Saunders]

The Greatest Show in the Galaxy is phenomenal, except when the actual Gods of Ragnarok are revealed to just be statues that kind of sit there and throw bolts of lightning who are then easily defeated by Sylvester McCoy doing shite magic tricks. But that’s only like 5% of the runtime. They still could have done anything else. But a brilliant story otherwise, truly.

[Rushy]

The Greatest Show in the Galaxy is phenomenal, except when the actual Gods of Ragnarok are revealed to just be statues that kind of sit there and throw bolts of lightning who are then easily defeated by Sylvester McCoy doing shite magic tricks. But that’s only like 5% of the runtime. They still could have done anything else. But a brilliant story otherwise, truly.

Does anyone else think Captain Cook is a bit underrated as a villain? The Chief Clown gets all the roses, but Cook is the one that really creeps me out. 

[Technopeasant]

And rather shite that it coopted the word Ragnarok before doing an actual Viking myth serial next year.

[Ben Saunders]

Does anyone else think Captain Cook is a bit underrated as a villain? The Chief Clown gets all the roses, but Cook is the one that really creeps me out. 

He’s good too, but the clown is on a whole other level. Maybe in another, clownless episode he would be the standout. All of the performances are great, really. I even like the rapping ringmaster, for its kitsch value. 

[Asclepius]

I was eight when I watched Greatest Show. Can you imagine the thrill of being that young, seeing those images and being so submerged into something so terrifying? Those last two McCoy series (and Paradise Towers) were just outstanding. Especially for me at the age I watched them. But they do stand up, too.

[Warbodog]

Can you imagine the thrill of being that young, seeing those images and being so submerged into something so terrifying?

Things that stood out as affectingly bizarre in my youth were Bill & Ted’s Bogus Journey and Beetlejuice (The Addams Family to a lesser extent), which I watched a lot around age 6 to 8. Not conventionally scary, but a bit unsettling in their weirdness and probably their humorous morbidity. Naturally I went on to love Red Dwarf.

[Dave]

Things that stood out as affectingly bizarre in my youth were Bill & Ted’s Bogus Journey and Beetlejuice (The Addams Family to a lesser extent), which I watched a lot around age 6 to 8. Not conventionally scary, but a bit unsettling in their weirdness and probably their humorous morbidity.

It was a good era for that kind of thing. Batman Returns is another that’s surprisingly weird for such a mainstream movie.

[Professor Flibble]

Rewatched Season 16, the first four stories are absolutely fantastic, the last two are…eh. 

[Rushy]

Rewatched Season 16, the first four stories are absolutely fantastic, the last two are…eh. 

I’m right there with you!

(with the asterisk that Pirate Planet part 4 is kinda eh)

[Professor Flibble]

Oh I don’t mind Part 4 of Pirate Planet, but then I don’t usually separate individual episodes from their serials. What makes that final episode weaker for you? 

[Rushy]

I liked the Pirate Captain as a villain on his own merit as a character. I wasn’t really compelled by the plot reveal that he’s virtually a figurehead for a strange alien queen. 

[Professor Flibble]

I liked the Pirate Captain as a villain on his own merit as a character. I wasn’t really compelled by the plot reveal that he’s virtually a figurehead for a strange alien queen. 

Tbf I do get that, he becomes sidelined a bit past that reveal. Can I just say I don’t think Bruce Purchase’s performance as the Captain gets acknowledged enough as one of the all time great Doctor Who performances?

[Rushy]

Can I just say I don’t think Bruce Purchase’s performance as the Captain gets acknowledged enough as one of the all time great Doctor Who performances?

I agree. I think it’s because the Williams era in general is kind of overlooked, with the exception of City of Death. 

[Professor Flibble]

Yeah honestly my hot take is I’ve always preferred the Williams era to the Hinchcliffe era. 

[Rushy]

I probably prefer Hinchcliffe, just for how slick the production is. Those stories are really well put together, and capture the Hammer horror aesthetic so well. 

Williams is much more ambitious, but his productions are kind of chaotic, so it’s a bit harder to see the vision there. 

[Professor Flibble]

I think I just tend to enjoy Williams era stories more, there’s a warm, comforting vibe to them and lots of fun side characters. Maybe it’s because the universe feels like it’s more full of vindictively nasty people in the Hinchcliffe era, but then that’s truer of the Saward era, if anything. 

[Rushy]

I think I just tend to enjoy Williams era stories more, there’s a warm, comforting vibe to them and lots of fun side characters. Maybe it’s because the universe feels like it’s more full of vindictively nasty people in the Hinchcliffe era, but then that’s truer of the Saward era, if anything. 

Have you ever watched the original 1960s Lost in Space? It’s kinda the same vibe. Very colourful, and thanks to Jonathan Harris’ involvement, erudite. The only sci-fi show where you’ll see aliens paraphrase Dickens for shits and giggles. 

[Professor Flibble]

No I’ve never watched it but will give it a go at some point. Only recently watched an episode of Thunderbirds for the first time, which was fun, while feeling a bit plotless. Incidentally, it was the first episode.

[Warbodog]

I’ve been enjoying the classic Taiwan Tony dub of Monkey (1978).

[Ben Saunders]

The thing about the Pirate Captain is that he’s a kind of really annoying bastard for 3 episodes, and then the reveal at the end sort of retroactively makes his performance genius. It’s such a good twist, I actually had forgotten about it before I watched the story again this year and so was able to experience it authentically a second time, and it’s so brilliant. Tom Baker is still capable of really Performing by that time too (he never actually loses it completely), and his “what’s it for?!” speech is really good stuff. The production/direction is a little not-so-great, but I do love Pirate Planet.

The Ribos Operation is wonderful, and I really like Androids of Tara actually, I think it’s the Williams era really firing on all cylinders and genuinely succeeding at what it’s going for. Power of Kroll is shit because Holmes was phoning it in, and Armageddon Factor is shit because of who wrote it.

[Ben Saunders]

No I’ve never watched it but will give it a go at some point. Only recently watched an episode of Thunderbirds for the first time, which was fun, while feeling a bit plotless. Incidentally, it was the first episode.

Thunderbirds is brilliant, it’s just so slickly made and once they start doing a little bit of characterisation and humour it really becomes something special. The first episode is probably not the most interesting in retrospect.

[Dave]

I always loved Thunderbirds and watched a lot of it during its resurgence in the 90s. I do wonder whether it would seem slow-paced to today’s viewers though.

[Warbodog]

The Pirate Planet’s in my top 10, but I thought I was being weird.

Thunderbirds was my favourite thing when I was in Year 1 (90s repeats that I didn’t notice were so old). I got the comic and pored over the detailed cross-sections. Didn’t have any toys or make a Tracy Island though.

[Professor Flibble]

Power of Kroll is shit because Holmes was phoning it in, and Armageddon Factor is shit because of who wrote it.

I thought Armageddon Factor was dull because of how it was paced. Too many bits that linger like K-9 talking in computer language to Mentalis, and it’s a bit of an underwhelming conclusion to the season.

[Ben Saunders]

The Pirate Planet’s in my top 10, but I thought I was being weird

Not top 10 for me by any means but only because it’s got such fierce competition. I would have to think pretty hard about a top 10. Power of the Daleks, Tomb of the Cybermen, The Enemy of the World, The Invasion, The Seeds of Death, Carnival of Monsters, Genesis of the Daleks, Warrior’s Gate, The Visitation, Enlightenment, The Caves of Androzani, perhaps.
The Rescue and the Time Meddler, The Time Warrior, The Greatest Show in the Galaxy and, no joke, The Invasion of Time are honourable mentions.

I thought Armageddon Factor was dull because of how it was paced.

Pretty much, and the big villain being Spooky Skull Man in such a black-and-white evil way is quite a letdown. I know we bashed on her previously, but Elizabeth Sandifier’s pieces on The Key to Time are really quite good, talking about how despite it being set up as a very black-and-white, good-vs-evil kind of plot, Holmes and Adams and Fisher do enough to subvert and critique that sort of idea and cast it in a much more nuanced and interesting light, then Baker & Martin come in to finish it off in a rather turgid, old-fashioned way. The general plot is fine and it’s not the worst story by any means, but as a conclusion to an epic arc it’s pretty dull, and it doesn’t know how to fill its six episodes.

[Professor Flibble]

Not top 10 for me by any means but only because it’s got such fierce competition. I would have to think pretty hard about a top 10. Power of the Daleks, Tomb of the Cybermen, The Enemy of the World, The Invasion, The Seeds of Death, Carnival of Monsters, Genesis of the Daleks, Warrior’s Gate, The Visitation, Enlightenment, The Caves of Androzani, perhaps.
The Rescue and the Time Meddler, The Time Warrior, The Greatest Show in the Galaxy and, no joke, The Invasion of Time are honourable mentions.

I’ve always found it difficult to make a Classic Who top 10, but I know the following stories would be contenders. I mean there’s around 20 of them here but essentially if I halved it then put it in order of preference, I’d probably have my top 10. Tbf, a couple of these are on here probably because they should be more than anything. Like, it’d feel weird not to consider Earthshock, even though it’s not typically one I’d outright call a personal favourite, it’s just really good.

The Web Planet, The War Machines, The Enemy of the World, The Seeds of Death, The Curse of Peladon, The Green Death, The Time Warrior, The Ark in Space, Genesis of the Daleks, Planet of Evil, The Brain of Morbius, Horror of Fang Rock, The Stones of Blood, City of Death, Nightmare of Eden, The Leisure Hive, Earthshock, The Five Doctors, Frontios, The Happiness Patrol, The Greatest Show in the Galaxy, The Curse of Fenric

[Technopeasant]

I wonder if the fact that there was already a complete DVD set is why they haven’t put Season 16 on Bluray yet.

The Web Planet, The War Machines, The Enemy of the World, The Seeds of
Death, The Curse of Peladon, The Green Death, The Time Warrior, The Ark
in Space, Planet of Evil, The Brain of Morbius… The Stones of Blood… The Five Doctors, The
Happiness Patrol, The Greatest Show in the Galaxy, The Curse of Fenric

My favourite Classic Who serial is also The…

[Ben Saunders]

Skipped Remembrance because I’ve seen it so much, but went back and watched it there. Lovely to see Peter Halliday. I don’t know if the stuff about Mike giving the Hand of Omega to Ratcliffe is very well presented, or if I just wasn’t paying attention, but I don’t remember him actually doing it. The “no coloureds” scene is great, but then Ace doesn’t really mention it or anything until after Mike betrays them. Was she still willing to give him a chance, in an “I can fix him” sort of way?

I can’t get over how any time we’re shown Dalek on Dalek action post-Resurrection, they just awkwardly stand in a line four feet from each other and continually miss. It’s so lame. I feel like nobody really knows how to direct the Daleks once they switch to colour, or maybe they just look shit in colour. But by the new series they suddenly get better at it, so it can’t be that. The special weapons Dalek is always cool.

It’s interesting how Remembrance works so well as a finale to all Dalek stories for Classic Who – the Daleks are wiped out, Skaro destroyed, the Renegade vs. Imperial plot tied up, everything put to bed with a neat bow on top. Obviously they didn’t know they were going to be cancelled at that time, but it’s as if they did. 

[Ben Saunders]

McCoy’s performance starts to get a little ridiculous when he starts trying to do the epic, shouting, authoritative stuff. It always put me off Battlefield because of it, but I noticed he does it a little towards the end of Remembrance as well. I just don’t believe him as that sort of person, he’s much better in the quieter, more calculated or warmer moments. I’m convinced much of his reputation is filled in from retroactively applying what people liked from the books to what we got in the show.

I would have to rank him at the bottom alongside Davison pre-Frontios, Whittaker, Gatwa and (sit down for this one) Tennant at his worst. Ranking a favourite Doctor is nearly impossible because 1, 2, 3, 4, 9, 11 and 12 are all so brilliant, but my least favourite would have to be 7 or 13. Revisiting 7 did nothing to change my mind, but maybe if I ever revisit 13 they’ll come out better for it. We didn’t spend enough time with 15 for me to really have an opinion on him. He’s obviously quite a good actor, as is Jodie Whittaker I gather, from other stuff she’s in. Davison also is a good actor, he’s just playing a wet sock for most of his run.

[Dave]

McCoy’s performance starts to get a little ridiculous when he starts trying to do the epic, shouting, authoritative stuff. It always put me off Battlefield because of it, but I noticed he does it a little towards the end of Remembrance as well. I just don’t believe him as that sort of person, he’s much better in the quieter, more calculated or warmer moments. I’m convinced much of his reputation is filled in from retroactively applying what people liked from the books to what we got in the show.

Don’t underestimate the effect of him being some people’s first Doctor, as he was for me. I’ve always liked him as a result.

[Unrumble]

I think he’s so good at the quieter stuff, that for me it excuses the few moments where he goes OTT. 

[Rushy]

The writing for McCoy overshadows any of his shortcomings. He has one of the most consistently brilliant and inventive TV eras of any Dr Who.

And as Unrumble says, he is wonderful for the quieter stuff. And for the wacky running around. He’s one of the best Doctors for me, and I didn’t grow up with him.

[Ben Saunders]

I think there’s a secret sauce to the first four Doctors that they never quite manage to ever recapture the essence of, when Doctor Who was groundbreaking and revolutionary, like nothing else and so itself, as opposed to trying to play catch-up with Star Wars and Alien and Buck Rogers. They do seriously step things up a gear immediately starting with Paradise Towers, but it never really captures that weird and wonderful experimental frontier feeling of the 60s and 70s. Greatest Show and Fenric are standouts, but it’s a different show by that point.

[Ben Saunders]

This behind the scenes photo from Red Hot Chili Peppers’ video for Give It Away looks like a modern remake of The Chase

[Professor Flibble]

The writing for McCoy overshadows any of his shortcomings. He has one of the most consistently brilliant and inventive TV eras of any Dr Who.
And as Unrumble says, he is wonderful for the quieter stuff. And for the wacky running around. He’s one of the best Doctors for me, and I didn’t grow up with him.

I grew up with every Doctor from Hartnell to Smith simultaneously and for a long time I kept telling people I didn’t have a favourite because I couldn’t put one above the other. Nowadays, I’ve realised my favourite is either Troughton or McCoy. And it bothers me that people say McCoy is the worst actor in the role. 

[Ben Saunders]

He certainly has his fans, that’s for sure. And I’m happy that others find magic in him, he’s just not for me. Troughton on the other hand, possibly my favourite. The bumbling fool persona that’s actually secretly always one step ahead of you is really quite special. I was thinking about The Ice Warriors the other day, just for no real reason, how he gets himself caught by them and is seemingly at their mercy, but it’s really a reconnaissance thing with him checking on Victoria, gathering data about the Ice Warriors and relaying information back to the base. It’s all a big ruse, a master plan, but he plays the fool so well he could convince anybody.

And then there’s Tomb of the Cybermen which is much more overt and obvious, he straight up gets them into that situation on purpose, letting Klieg’s perverse lust for knowledge/power take the attention away from his machinations, and using him to revive the Cybermen for him, cold-bloodedly letting him die in the process after deciding he’s truly evil/deranged. Good shit.

[Dave]

Troughton on the other hand, possibly my favourite. The bumbling fool persona that’s actually secretly always one step ahead of you is really quite special.

[Ben Saunders]

The man with the dirty mag who discovered America?

[Unrumble]

Was it dirty because it was stained with cinzano bianco?

[Flap Jack]

[Technopeasant]

And why not just clean it?

[Dave]

[Warbodog]

After learning it from a six year old’s homework, anyway.

[Dave]

Particularly impressive given that he wasn’t born until 1868.

And he invented both the Mackintosh and Rennies, what a week that must have been.

[Warbodog]

Whoops!

[Author]

Replies