The Classic Doctor Who Thread (1963 to 1989/1996)

[By Jove its holmes]

Fact of the Day: Tom Baker was the first DW series lead who wasn’t a veteran of the Second World War. He had the mercy of a late birth.

Topic

[Ben Saunders]

One of my favourite lines in Classic Who is from The Dalek Invasion of Earth. The Doctor and co. are seeking refuge from The Daleks and find an underground resistance group, who are low on supplies and wary of outsiders. To prove that she has something to offer, Barbara mentions that she cooks. The leader responds: “Oh, good. And what you do, Susan?” Susan snaps back: “I eat.”

This from the same serial as the infamous smacked bottom line.

[genericnerdyusername]

My young cousins laughed their heads off at the smacked bottom line.

The bit before the Doctor goes into the TARDIS to regenerate, between his companions disappearing and him going inside, I found that moment poignant. I don’t really know why, and I don’t care to know. The rest of the episode was worth it for that.

[genericnerdyusername]

Sorry, just remembered this is meant to be about Classic Doctor Who. Damn.

[(deleted)]

Doctor Who has always been very progressive and very left.

I think that this is a retrospective and irresponsible myth, to be honest, that is becoming a bit of a ubiquitous received opinion. There are times when it *was* overtly leftist, but probably more times when it was overtly conservative and plenty of times when it sat in the middle. Politically it was a real chocolate box which is about correct for what the show should be. It’s never stood consistently on any soapbox, even in the Cartmel years – maybe the gay lib themes of the RTD era (but I’d argue that’s not necessarily a left-wing issue – our side’s saviour complex and imagined monopoly on emancipation is a disagreeable burden to carry) perhaps?

The modern show only gets toecurlingly embarrassing when it goes cringingly on the nose about current politics (“massive weapons of destruction”, the ISIS/Zygons trainwreck and its abominable quote-me-quote-me speech – the Belgrano stuff in Christmas Invasion is quite good, mind). It’s *not* a political format, by design or by execution, and those that write it as though it is are rather building up their part. The odd reference to a crap PM or allegory to something out of the headlines doesn’t make it a left-wing show any more than a handful of original songs over 56 years makes it a musical.

[Ben Saunders]

Oh, don’t.

[Ben Saunders]

Next up: Star Trek was never a liberal show

[Flap Jack]

The question of “Was the first Doctor a racist/sexist/homophobe etc.?” is a little tricky. Because obviously nobody writing, directing or producing the show was actively trying to craft a racist character, but given the time it was made and the people who made it, that doesn’t mean he didn’t end up racist regardless.

I mean, the guy literally referred to Native Americans as “Red Indian” and described them as savages in episode 1 of the entire series. That’s clearly racist by the standards of the 1860s, let alone the 1960s.

I sympathise with Steven Moffat’s desire not to sanitise the first Doctor and the real world context of the show’s inception, but unfortunately he did overcorrect by making One’s bigotry so blatant in Twice Upon A Time, so in the end in just seems like he’s patting himself on the back for not making the Doctor an overt bigot in his episodes, which is like the bare minimum you should do.

Also, I agree that Doctor Who’s politics were always a bit inconsistent even if they generally trended progressive. The Green Death is pro-environmental, The Sun Makers is anti-tax, The Happiness Patrol is anti-Thatcher, the Pertwee era is (broadly) pro-military etc. It’s all over the place, really. The Doctor will be a revolutionary in one story and fighting to maintain the status quo in the next. Nothing wrong with that necessarily! But it is wilful misremembering to say that Doctor Who is by default an anarchic, leftist show.

[Ben Saunders]

>The Pertwee era is (broadly) pro-military
For the most part, The Doctor really isn’t “pro-military”, he is very often disdainful of violence and The Brigadier’s methods. Doctor Who and the Silurians, anybody? This is muddied, however, by the very popular serial The Daemons, in which for some reason or other the Doctor suddenly has a boner for authority and tells Jo to listen to The Brigadier because he outranks her. Since The Daemons is so popular, this is the attitude that seems to prevail, even though it is inconsistent with Three’s characterisation in other episodes.The Doctor bows to authority when it suits his ends, to be honest, and uses it to do things as he sees fit.

Claws of Axos has one of my favourite Pertwee moments, which more accurately encapsulates his politics, I believe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61y_ci48HEQ

[Ben Saunders]

This idea that Three was actually some pro-authority, boner-for-the-military, Tory voting wine enthusiast is unfortunately perpetuated by the people writing the comics line, including I think Paul Cornell. It seems to be based more off people’s memories/cultural perception of the character, rather than them having actually seen any of it recently.

[(deleted)]

FWIW, no, Star Trek was never “a left-wing show” either, and for similar reasons. It has nominally progressive anti-war ideals, yes, but its abolition of capitalism was always more of an idea than it ever was an ideal, and like Doctor Who its prominent left-leaning episodes are more than balanced out by the opposite. It’s a show about American patriotism, except in space.

[International Debris]

Doctor Who has such a varied history with such a huge number of writers that it’s hard to classify it as having any particular leaning – there are always ’60s artefacts that jar, and even Moffat asked Gatiss to write Churchill as the cuddly hero rather than the racist, war-loving cunt that he actually was. But on the whole, the character has always been an anti-authoritarian peace-lover who fundamentally believes in the good in people to get themselves through things. He’s an anarcho-communist if anything.

Star Trek is programme about how positive humanity could be if we put our differences, greed and violence behind us. TNG onwards much moreso, admittedly, but the universe of the Federation is about as close to utopian left-wing politics as fiction ever dares go.

[cwickham]

It’s also a bit rich of the man responsible for the Ponds not giving a shit about their abducted baby or that awful “squeezed into a skirt that’s just a little bit too tight” line to take the Sixties to task for casual sexism.

[Ben Saunders]

Let’s Kill Hitler is a bit shit but I don’t see how it’s sexist

[Flap Jack]

I don’t think Three himself is actually especially right wing, but it’s inevitable that if your status quo for 5 seasons is “The Doctor works for a military organisation to fight off alien threats to Earth” then inevitably your show and main character are going to have a much more pro-military vibe.

[Ben Saunders]

He is very reluctantly forced into that role, and is constantly butting heads with The Brigadier. He does grow somewhat fond of him and especially the others, but he is still constantly trying to run away from it all and absconding scolding the Brig for his shoot first, ask questions later approach.

[International Debris]

Yes, he only really stays with UNIT because he’s using their scientific equipment to try and repair his TARDIS. He’s always critical of the military, even if he becomes fond of the regulars on a personal level, and as soon as his TARDIS is fixed he fucks off and only really comes back to Jo and / or Sarah.

[Flap Jack]

It doesn’t really matter what the specific details were. Of course The Doctor was frequently butting heads with UNIT and was ultimately not happy to be there, but regardless UNIT were allies to The Doctor in every episode and were co-heroes of the show. You physically *can’t* make a TV series with that set up without said series being pro-military. Even if the Producer is a Buddhist hippy.

Got to remember that the politics of Doctor Who itself is separate from the politics held by The Doctor personally, but even for the latter it’s still very inconsistent. The Doctor is so OK with the Brigadier’s military involvement that he salutes his corpse inside a cyberman, but in that same series he basically sees Danny Pink as a child killer for having been a soldier, before he even has the opportunity to find out that he actually did kill a child.

[Ben Saunders]

Wow it’s like you missed the whole entire point

[Flap Jack]

Oh man, I often expect to miss the whole point, but the whole entire point? That’s just upsetting to hear.

[By Jove its holmes]

In “The Web of Fear”:

The Great Intelligence is ranting about his plan and the characters cling to each other in fear. Except for Chorley, who, trying to hold Victoria from behind, and not remembering that A) she is a woman and B) that she is braless, accidentally touches her breast, and quickly adjusts his hand.

[Ben Saunders]

“Accidentally”
That kind of thing happens a good few times in Who tbh, it also happens when the infected are trying to grab Tegan from behind in Terminus

[Stephen Abootman]

2 episodes of The Dalek’s Master Plan recovered and on iplayer at Easter

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g7kwq1k11o

[Technopeasant]

I’d say animate the rest but that’s still only 3 of 12…

[Flap Jack]

I was so psyched to wake up to this news!

And no Technopeasant, it’s now at 5/12 episodes recovered. We already had episodes 2, 5 and 10, and now we have 1 and 3. Animating 7 episodes for a release would be a big ask, but they did do it for The Evil of the Daleks, so maybe? It would be a bit different though because for most animation releases they animated every episode including ones that didn’t need it, just for consistency.

Honestly I was optimistically assuming they’d animate all missing episodes eventually anyway, but this definitely helps things.

[ReddiShadow]

I forget where I read it, but they’ve mentioned Masterplan and Marco Polo as stories they won’t animate. Too many characters to build animation rigs for, too much action. Evil was 7 eps, but nothing really happens in it til the back half of Episode 7.

If stories like Meglos were missing they’d be quids in cos it’s one consistent cast standing around talking for four episodes, and one of them is a copy-paste of other cast members.

Personally I’d like to see The Massacre done, but considering it’s a historical with no marketable monster (when The Wheel in Space is sitting right there), I’m not holding my breath.

[Ian Symes]

A record time to go from the first missing episode discovery for over a decade, to complaining about what’s yet to be animated. Textbook Doctor Who fandom.

What an incredible discovery, the likes of which will be rarer and rarer as time goes on and film stock deteriorates. The clips look sensational, they’ve done an amazing restoration job. And I love the story of Peter Purves being lured to a cinema in Leicester under false pretences. The Daleks Master Plan is pretty close to the top of my wishlist of missing stories to be found, so I couldn’t be happier.

[Ben Saunders]

I couldn’t believe my fuckin eyes when I woke up this morning. Master Plan is the holy grail, second only to Power of the Daleks and Tenth Planet 4. I’m vibrating right now.

for most animation releases they animated every episode including ones that didn’t need it, just for consistency

Yeah they started doing this because I think BBC America (?) who finance and broadcast them demand it for the sake of continuity. You’d think it would be cheaper to just animate the episodes actually missing, but since they’re the ones fronting the money that’s the way it goes.

[Ben Saunders]

What an incredible discovery, the likes of which will be rarer and rarer as time goes on and film stock deteriorates

Those in the know have referred to these as “bonus episodes”, ie not the ones that it has been known Film Is Fabulous have been in the process of securing for some time now. So there are at least two other episodes out there, I think (plus Web of Fear 3 which was stolen), which is very exciting. But it’s an excruciatingly slow process.

[Flap Jack]

[Warbodog]

I tried watching an animation once (Power of the Daleks) but it was like watching Red Christmas. I’d rather have the bare audio or read the book.

[Ben Saunders]

Some of the animations are very good – The Invasion (the first one they did!) is a standout. Did you watch Power of the Daleks when it first released, or the special edition they released a couple years later because the initial version was a shit rush job?

[Warbodog]

It was on Dailymotion or somewhere, so probably the first one.

[tombow]

I’ve only seen modern Who, but remember the Capaldi episode where he scolds an alien political radical, and says something like “your type are so childish, you never stop to think that after you’ve won…who will make all the violins?” Was that episode/scene considered conservative? I remember thinking he sounded a bit humorously fuddy duddy and Daily Mail ish in that scene.

[Dave]

Is that the Zygon Inversion anti-war speech? I think that’s widely regarded as one of Capaldi’s best moments. 

[Ben Saunders]

No, you could only possibly view The Zygon Inversion as conservative if you were being deliberately obtuse. Kill The Moon, on the other hand…

[Stephen Abootman]

An interesting note here (24:30) that they actually found 6 episodes in this collection but 4 already exist which they’re going to return to the BBC in case they’re better quality than what is held already.

[Ben Saunders]

It was on Dailymotion or somewhere, so probably the first one.

I was underwhelmed by Power after watching the first animation, but after watching the improved version I realised how incredible it really is. It’s a holy grail for lost Doctor Who not just because it’s Patrick Troughton’s first story, but also it shows the Daleks at their most conniving, scheming and sadistic. The scenes of the Daleks slaughtering everybody must be glorious, and the shots of them building more of themselves.

[Unrumble]

[Rushy]

I’m very excited. William Hartnell is by far my favourite Doctor and to have two new episodes with him is very special. Especially the Daleks’ Master Plan. 

[Rushy]

Is that the Zygon Inversion anti-war speech? I think that’s widely regarded as one of Capaldi’s best moments. 

From an acting standpoint, yes. From a writing standpoint, it was almost comedically inept and completely missed the nuances of why war happens in the first place. Basically a glorified version of “can’t we all just get along??” 

[International Debris]

This is really lovely news. Even if we only get telesnap reconstructions of the rest, it’ll make the eventual Blu-Ray that bit more enjoyable. And as season 3 is pretty much guaranteed to be the last one they do, that gives them a lot of time.

[ReddiShadow]

Apologies, I’d delete my comment if I could

[Dave]

This is pretty fucking funny.

“I’m not as interested in finding lost Doctor Who episodes now that I’ve started dicking around with AI slop”

[Unrumble]

This is pretty fucking funny.

“I’m not as interested in finding lost Doctor Who episodes now that I’ve started dicking around with AI slop”

There’s almost, almost a tone of “how dare you find these episodes that were thought lost forever now, when I’ve spent so much time over recreating them in an uncanny and wonky fashion. The insensitivity that my feelings are not top of everyone’s priorities is staggering!”

[Dave]

There’s almost, almost a tone of “how dare you find these episodes that were thought lost forever now, when I’ve spent so much time over recreating them in an uncanny and wonky fashion. The insensitivity that my feelings are not top of everyone’s priorities is staggering!”

I genuinely think he might believe his versions are better.

[Rushy]

 I genuinely think he might believe his versions are better.

Christ almighty

[Warbodog]

Because he was definitely going to leave them alone after three.

[Ben Kirkham]

This is pretty fucking funny.

“I’m not as interested in finding lost Doctor Who episodes now that I’ve started dicking around with AI slop”

”There will always be 110/ 105/ 97/ 95 (delete as appropriate) missing Doctor Who episodes.”

I love you, Ian. I hope you know that.

[Dave]

Because he was definitely going to leave them alone after three.

[International Debris]

He’s so detached from reality that he’s ambivalent about two episodes from one of the most sought after stories being returned. I mean yeah, he’s put a lot of effort and time into his abysmal reconstructions, but to start prioritising those over the originals is actually deranged. 

[Author]

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