The Classic Doctor Who Thread (1963 to 1989/1996)

[Ben Saunders]

The worst it gets is the female companion is occasionally made to make some tea, honestly. Doctor Who has always been very progressive and very left. Barbara is a pretty strong character and even Susan is given time to shine in The Sensorites. Once Susan left the showrunners really didn’t know what to do with the companion role all that much and it all gets a bit sketchy, they burn through them like wildfire towards the end of Hartnell’s run. Any time a female character gets talked down to she typically has something to say about it.

We start getting overtly feminist companions in the 70s, 1969 if you count Zoe, and even Jo, who was specifically brought in to be more of a “typical companion” damsel-in-distress-type really comes into her own and ends up a total badass. You do sometimes end up with the female companion breaking her ankle or having to be rescued, but that’s more down to shitty writers and the 25-minutes-and-a-cliffhanger format than any kind of sexism.

[Ben Saunders]

One of my favourite lines in Classic Who is from The Dalek Invasion of Earth. The Doctor and co. are seeking refuge from The Daleks and find an underground resistance group, who are low on supplies and wary of outsiders. To prove that she has something to offer, Barbara mentions that she cooks. The leader responds: “Oh, good. And what you do, Susan?” Susan snaps back: “I eat.”

This from the same serial as the infamous smacked bottom line.

[genericnerdyusername]

My young cousins laughed their heads off at the smacked bottom line.

The bit before the Doctor goes into the TARDIS to regenerate, between his companions disappearing and him going inside, I found that moment poignant. I don’t really know why, and I don’t care to know. The rest of the episode was worth it for that.

[genericnerdyusername]

Sorry, just remembered this is meant to be about Classic Doctor Who. Damn.

[(deleted)]

Doctor Who has always been very progressive and very left.

I think that this is a retrospective and irresponsible myth, to be honest, that is becoming a bit of a ubiquitous received opinion. There are times when it *was* overtly leftist, but probably more times when it was overtly conservative and plenty of times when it sat in the middle. Politically it was a real chocolate box which is about correct for what the show should be. It’s never stood consistently on any soapbox, even in the Cartmel years – maybe the gay lib themes of the RTD era (but I’d argue that’s not necessarily a left-wing issue – our side’s saviour complex and imagined monopoly on emancipation is a disagreeable burden to carry) perhaps?

The modern show only gets toecurlingly embarrassing when it goes cringingly on the nose about current politics (“massive weapons of destruction”, the ISIS/Zygons trainwreck and its abominable quote-me-quote-me speech – the Belgrano stuff in Christmas Invasion is quite good, mind). It’s *not* a political format, by design or by execution, and those that write it as though it is are rather building up their part. The odd reference to a crap PM or allegory to something out of the headlines doesn’t make it a left-wing show any more than a handful of original songs over 56 years makes it a musical.

[Ben Saunders]

Oh, don’t.

[Ben Saunders]

Next up: Star Trek was never a liberal show

[Flap Jack]

The question of “Was the first Doctor a racist/sexist/homophobe etc.?” is a little tricky. Because obviously nobody writing, directing or producing the show was actively trying to craft a racist character, but given the time it was made and the people who made it, that doesn’t mean he didn’t end up racist regardless.

I mean, the guy literally referred to Native Americans as “Red Indian” and described them as savages in episode 1 of the entire series. That’s clearly racist by the standards of the 1860s, let alone the 1960s.

I sympathise with Steven Moffat’s desire not to sanitise the first Doctor and the real world context of the show’s inception, but unfortunately he did overcorrect by making One’s bigotry so blatant in Twice Upon A Time, so in the end in just seems like he’s patting himself on the back for not making the Doctor an overt bigot in his episodes, which is like the bare minimum you should do.

Also, I agree that Doctor Who’s politics were always a bit inconsistent even if they generally trended progressive. The Green Death is pro-environmental, The Sun Makers is anti-tax, The Happiness Patrol is anti-Thatcher, the Pertwee era is (broadly) pro-military etc. It’s all over the place, really. The Doctor will be a revolutionary in one story and fighting to maintain the status quo in the next. Nothing wrong with that necessarily! But it is wilful misremembering to say that Doctor Who is by default an anarchic, leftist show.

[Ben Saunders]

>The Pertwee era is (broadly) pro-military
For the most part, The Doctor really isn’t “pro-military”, he is very often disdainful of violence and The Brigadier’s methods. Doctor Who and the Silurians, anybody? This is muddied, however, by the very popular serial The Daemons, in which for some reason or other the Doctor suddenly has a boner for authority and tells Jo to listen to The Brigadier because he outranks her. Since The Daemons is so popular, this is the attitude that seems to prevail, even though it is inconsistent with Three’s characterisation in other episodes.The Doctor bows to authority when it suits his ends, to be honest, and uses it to do things as he sees fit.

Claws of Axos has one of my favourite Pertwee moments, which more accurately encapsulates his politics, I believe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61y_ci48HEQ

[Ben Saunders]

This idea that Three was actually some pro-authority, boner-for-the-military, Tory voting wine enthusiast is unfortunately perpetuated by the people writing the comics line, including I think Paul Cornell. It seems to be based more off people’s memories/cultural perception of the character, rather than them having actually seen any of it recently.

[(deleted)]

FWIW, no, Star Trek was never “a left-wing show” either, and for similar reasons. It has nominally progressive anti-war ideals, yes, but its abolition of capitalism was always more of an idea than it ever was an ideal, and like Doctor Who its prominent left-leaning episodes are more than balanced out by the opposite. It’s a show about American patriotism, except in space.

[International Debris]

Doctor Who has such a varied history with such a huge number of writers that it’s hard to classify it as having any particular leaning – there are always ’60s artefacts that jar, and even Moffat asked Gatiss to write Churchill as the cuddly hero rather than the racist, war-loving cunt that he actually was. But on the whole, the character has always been an anti-authoritarian peace-lover who fundamentally believes in the good in people to get themselves through things. He’s an anarcho-communist if anything.

Star Trek is programme about how positive humanity could be if we put our differences, greed and violence behind us. TNG onwards much moreso, admittedly, but the universe of the Federation is about as close to utopian left-wing politics as fiction ever dares go.

[cwickham]

It’s also a bit rich of the man responsible for the Ponds not giving a shit about their abducted baby or that awful “squeezed into a skirt that’s just a little bit too tight” line to take the Sixties to task for casual sexism.

[Ben Saunders]

Let’s Kill Hitler is a bit shit but I don’t see how it’s sexist

[Flap Jack]

I don’t think Three himself is actually especially right wing, but it’s inevitable that if your status quo for 5 seasons is “The Doctor works for a military organisation to fight off alien threats to Earth” then inevitably your show and main character are going to have a much more pro-military vibe.

[Ben Saunders]

He is very reluctantly forced into that role, and is constantly butting heads with The Brigadier. He does grow somewhat fond of him and especially the others, but he is still constantly trying to run away from it all and absconding scolding the Brig for his shoot first, ask questions later approach.

[International Debris]

Yes, he only really stays with UNIT because he’s using their scientific equipment to try and repair his TARDIS. He’s always critical of the military, even if he becomes fond of the regulars on a personal level, and as soon as his TARDIS is fixed he fucks off and only really comes back to Jo and / or Sarah.

[Flap Jack]

It doesn’t really matter what the specific details were. Of course The Doctor was frequently butting heads with UNIT and was ultimately not happy to be there, but regardless UNIT were allies to The Doctor in every episode and were co-heroes of the show. You physically *can’t* make a TV series with that set up without said series being pro-military. Even if the Producer is a Buddhist hippy.

Got to remember that the politics of Doctor Who itself is separate from the politics held by The Doctor personally, but even for the latter it’s still very inconsistent. The Doctor is so OK with the Brigadier’s military involvement that he salutes his corpse inside a cyberman, but in that same series he basically sees Danny Pink as a child killer for having been a soldier, before he even has the opportunity to find out that he actually did kill a child.

[Ben Saunders]

Wow it’s like you missed the whole entire point

[Flap Jack]

Oh man, I often expect to miss the whole point, but the whole entire point? That’s just upsetting to hear.

[By Jove its holmes]

In “The Web of Fear”:

The Great Intelligence is ranting about his plan and the characters cling to each other in fear. Except for Chorley, who, trying to hold Victoria from behind, and not remembering that A) she is a woman and B) that she is braless, accidentally touches her breast, and quickly adjusts his hand.

[Ben Saunders]

“Accidentally”
That kind of thing happens a good few times in Who tbh, it also happens when the infected are trying to grab Tegan from behind in Terminus

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