What happened afterwards…?

[Asclepius]

The radiation leak happens. A flash of light. Hollister goes ‘Argh’. Rimmer says ‘gazpacho soup’. All die.
We know what happens to the cats and the Cats.
We know that Holly has enough time to read everything ever written and accelerates the ship away.
And we know that about 3,000,000 years later, he revives Rimmer.
What about the very first bits? What happens to MacIntyre? He must witness everyone dying. How does he feel about that? Does Hollister automatically replace him as Highest Ranking Hologram? Or is it down to Holly to replace him. Or not? When does Holly decide to switch off MacIntyre? Does he tell him beforehand? Or does MacIntyre ask to be switched off, having just witnessed the death of everyone? Including Joe’s wife?

Topic

[Rushy]

The hologram only exists for the benefit of living crew. It’s been said at least once that if Lister were to die, Rimmer would be turned off immediately. And as much as we like to think they’re alive, the world of Red Dwarf strongly implies that holograms are treated like any other resource onboard. 

I have no issue believing that Holly (especially in his pre-senile condition) would switch MacIntyre off mid-sentence without further ado the very second after the crew died. 

After that, Holly most likely contacted the JMC for instructions, and was told to take the ship away from populated space. 

[Rushy]

I don’t think there’s any scenario where Hollister would be brought back as a hologram, unless only he and the other senior officers died, and the junior crewmembers needed someone with experience to take charge of the ship. 

[RunawayTrain]

I actually think turning MacIntyre off the second the rest of the crew died would be the kindest thing.  In a Star Trek future this would be the subject of extensive ethical debate, but certainly in this situation where he’d be alone apart from Holly (who despite his IQ we assume is probably not trained as a ship’s counsellor) and heading away from home for what turned out to be millions of years, having just witnessed the deaths of his friends and colleagues, I can’t imagine keeping him on and leaving it as his decision whether to stay on or off would be the kind thing.

[Flap Jack]

I don’t think it’s beyond the realm of possibility that Holly kept McIntyre switched on for a time, or swapped him out for a different crew member. Holly may have had protocols in place regarding what to do in the circumstance of a catastrophic radiation leak, but he’s still not technically the top authority on the ship. So after the fact he could well have consulted the Captain’s hologram about what to do next. Plus even pre-senility Holly is still sentient, so he could have just activated a hologram because he wanted to. It was obviously much later, but in the novel Holly activates Talkie to be his friend, so it wouldn’t be so weird if he’d activated a hologram for the same reason.

Also, the status of holograms might be more complicated than just them being considered resources, given the lore about holograms existing outside of emplyment obligations, and a TV channel having a hologram as a newsreader is seen as them being modern and progressive, not cynical capitalists just trying to continue profiting off a popular presenter who’s passed away.

[Warbodog]

the status of holograms might be more complicated than just them being considered resources, given the lore about holograms existing outside of emplyment obligations, and a TV channel having a hologram as a newsreader is seen as them being modern and progressive, not cynical capitalists just trying to continue profiting off a popular presenter who’s passed away.

That’s the consumer-facing front, they’d train their AIs to be callous when no one was watching, as today. Depends how much free will and personality Holly had at that point.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Given the JMC likes to just hurl its ships into suns at every opportunity, I wouldn’t be surprised if Holly overrode whatever the actual protocol was. 

Realistically the kindest thing to do is just turn him off immediately so he dies (again) with everyone else. That’s if the blast didn’t knock him offline first. 

[Asclepius]

[Asclepius]

Lots of opinions here. It’s an interesting one, and was a late night thought of mine the other night. I think it boils down to – does Holly have the authority to do whatever he wants? Or does he need to consult with the Captain or JMC before making a decision? Is he allowed to make massive decisions like “Turn this guy off” or “Accelerate out of the solar system” without consulting with a high ranking human?

[tombow]

maybe George’s light bee got burned in the incident 

[Asclepius]

maybe George’s light bee got burned in the incident 

They didn’t have light bees back then though, did they? It was all discs and hologram projection suites. None of the tech got damaged during the explosion.

[tombow]

oh yeah I was trying to remember that. I feel like Holly has a certain humanity about him that he’d say “sorry old boy, suppose we’d better turn you off till we figure out what to do”

[International Debris]

McIntyre was still on right up to Lister being let out of stasis, at which point he was replaced by Rimmer. Of course, by this point he was stark raving mad.

Actually, that’s a point, in Me2 it’s clear that a disc needs to be used to start up a hologram. How did Holly do this? Skutters seem too inept (or is that just a ruse to piss off Rimmer?)

[sleepey]

There might be a disc changer mechanism or something for the official hologram, & the 2nd one is more basic because they’ve cobbled it together themselves.

[Flap Jack]

To be fair, Holly did have literal eons to prepare for Lister’s awakening, so I think even the skutters would have managed to get the disc swap done in that amount of time.

Skutters’ ineptitude is dynamic anyway. They flail about uselessly if it’s funny – or really, if an actual skutter robot is on camera – but in IWCD the skutters carried out the repair work on the Nova 5 fine, and in Pete (ugh) Bob was very adept at getting Lister his contraband.

[Rushy]

Lots of opinions here. It’s an interesting one, and was a late night thought of mine the other night. I think it boils down to – does Holly have the authority to do whatever he wants? Or does he need to consult with the Captain or JMC before making a decision? Is he allowed to make massive decisions like “Turn this guy off” or “Accelerate out of the solar system” without consulting with a high ranking human?

I think pre-senile Holly would ask for instructions, whereas post-senile Holly seems to do whatever’s necessary to keep Lister sane, (relatively) safe and occupied. I did really appreciate that idea from Back in the Red, that Holly deliberately engineered some of the situations to give him something to do. Marooned in particular ties in really well with that idea. 

[Warbodog]

I did really appreciate that idea from Back in the Red, that Holly deliberately engineered some of the situations to give him something to do. Marooned in particular ties in really well with that idea. 

It makes Holly’s absence in Quarantine less of an oversight/annoyance too. Possibly in addition to being annoyed about getting increasingly forgotten about and siding with Rimmer against Kryten.

[Rushy]

Future Echoes were just holograms all along.

(They wouldn’t take up nearly as much power if they’re just recordings and not sentient)

[Asclepius]

Future Echoes were just holograms all along.
(They wouldn’t take up nearly as much power if they’re just recordings and not sentient)

Ooh, I like that!

*But* the purpose of the holograms is to persuade Lister to not go into stasis. What’s to be gained by that? Is Holly prioritising his own sanity by doing this, maybe…?

[Rushy]

Holly most likely kept track of humanity’s progress, and knows exactly what happened to Earth. He just refuses to take Lister back home, because it gives him another goal to live for. 

[Flap Jack]

While I really don’t think that “I create these little diversions to keep him occupied” was Doug trying to suggest that many or all of the previous episode plots were all just schemes by Holly (because that would make no sense whatsoever and retroactively ruin the stakes of those episodes), I hate the implications of it anyway. Holly is a doofus but he’s meant to be a good guy! He shouldn’t be concocting schemes against the crew and he definitely shouldn’t be putting them in danger just to keep Lister busy FFS. There’s clearly a huge gulf between “I need to give Lister things to do” and “I should Truman Show him”, and in general I don’t like it when characters lie to and trick their friends for “””moral””” reasons. It’s why I hate Stoke Me a Clipper.

Queeg is an acceptable exception though, because Holly had a specific personal motivation in that episode, he never put the crew in any danger, and he revealed the joke relatively quickly.

Also, if Holly had revealed that kind of betrayal, it doesn’t feel right to me that everyone would just let that slide. I feel the same way about Orac in that one episode of Blake’s 7. If I were Avon I would given Orac the Talkie Toaster treatment, I can tell you that much.

[Rushy]

Also, if Holly had revealed that kind of betrayal, it doesn’t feel right to me that everyone would just let that slide

Meanwhile, Rimmer: 

[Rushy]

If I were Avon I would given Orac the Talkie Toaster treatment, I can tell you that much.

He gets payback in the Lucifer novels. Avon programs Orac to explode the second that his own heart stops beating. Orac’s desperately trying to keep him alive from that point forward lol

[Flap Jack]

Meanwhile, Rimmer: 

Haha, of course Rimmer is forgiven unrealistically easily for that too, but at least it’s correctly treated as a villainous turn in the episode. Holly making his own nanobots and resurrecting the crew is just treated as a garden variety Holly fuckup rather than anything malicious – and the implication about past incidents also being his doing is essentially ignored.

He gets payback in the Lucifer novels. Avon programs Orac to explode the
second that his own heart stops beating. Orac’s desperately trying to
keep him alive from that point forward lol

Interesting, good to know Paul Darrow and I were on the same page. Well, not the same page but the same chapter at least.

[Rushy]

Holly making his own nanobots and resurrecting the crew is just treated as a garden variety Holly fuckup rather than anything malicious – and the implication about past incidents also being his doing is essentially ignored. 

He’s a father figure to them. At least, that was my reading of the first two series. Even in his senile state, I felt that they looked up to him a bit and were willing to look past some of his faults because his presence reminds them of when they were still in the old world. 

[Ben Saunders]

and in general I don’t like it when characters lie to and trick their friends for “””moral””” reasons

boy do i have a show for you

[Flap Jack]

Funny thing is that Camille wasn’t even really a great example of the noble lie. Kryten decides that it would be better for Camille to leave in spite of wanting her to stay, and he convinces her, but I’m not even sure what the lie was meant to be. He doesn’t tell her that he doesn’t actually love her or anything like that, and he must genuinely believe that her leaving is the best outcome or he wouldn’t be trying to achieve it. It’s less a lesson in noble deceit, more a lesson in sacrificing your own happiness for the sake of others.

But if he did lie, then it does count as the kind of thing I was talking about – Camille going with Hector may be the best decision, but she should be allowed to make that decision with all the facts.

Ultimately I did put “moral” in triple scare quotes for a reason. On the occasions where lying genuinely is the moral choice, like if doing so will save a life (key example – The Last Day), then that’s obviously fine. I’m talking about “but they’re happier not knowing” type horseshit.

[Rushy]

I’m the opposite. I like a lack of such nobility in my heroes. It keeps them human. Especially a show like Blake’s 7, where the crew’s moral degradation through the seasons is evident. They start out as a Robin Hood gang, and by the end you have Avon trying to murder Vila to save his own skin. People are fickle, and rarely sacrificial no matter how good they are. 

[Flap Jack]

To be clear, I’m not actually against morally grey or outright immoral characters (unless it doesn’t fit with their prior characterisation), I just think that when a character does immoral things the other characters and the story itself should at least acknowledge it as an immoral thing. And if acknowledging it breaks the story, then it was a bad choice to make them do whatever it was.

Like it would make Blake’s 7 a lot worse if Avon behaved so ruthlessly in order to survive and win the day, but the story treated him as if he was this Superman-esque figure who would never dream of killing anyone.

[Technopeasant]

Pete (ugh) Bob

[Rushy]

Like it would make Blake’s 7 a lot worse if Avon behaved so ruthlessly in order to survive and win the day, but the story treated him as if he was this Superman-esque figure who would never dream of killing anyone.

Interestingly, I think this is the exact reason why Chris Boucher introduced moral ambiguity to Blake’s character (who in season 1 had been something of a space Robin Hood). 

[Author]

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