Doctor Who – Series 12

[Dave]

Well, that was a lot of fun, I thought. One of the good things about the show is that it can support so many different styles of story, and I thought they did a Bond-esque spy romp quite well (with a touch of X-Files thrown in).

Everyone seems a little more comfortable in their roles now and there’s a bit more meaningful character development than last series.

Plus, I liked the late reveal, which I didn’t see coming at all.

(And the ‘hiding behind the sofa’ gag made me chuckle.)

As good as anything from the last series.

Topic

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

but that would contradict S01 E02 and Doctor Who never likes to contradict itself.

[Ben Saunders]

Well, that was the single best episode of Doctor Who we’ve had since The Doctor Falls.
Still a bit formulaic, heavy handed message, lots of nitpicks. But it was funny, and the writing just felt a lot more cohesive than in recent times.

They literally already did the “desolate alien world turns out to be a far-future Earth underground station thing in Trial of a Time Lord: The Mysterious Planet. Literally the same revelation.

[Ben Saunders]

>It really seems like Chibnall’s who is going with Bill and Ted logic of, as time passes from your perspective, so does time elsewhere. So on the Doctor’s personal timeline Gallifrey is fucked and she can’t do sod all about it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_of_the_Daleks

[By Jove its holmes]

Still mad at being lectured like a 10 year old from the last episode.

we must be thankful that they did not have Swedish Greta guest star.

[Dave]

This week’s was alright I thought. All the alien stuff was fairly run-of-the-mill but the historical aspects were ok. Hard to get really excited about it though.

[Pete Part Three]

And…I’m done. I’ll be back when Chibnall fucks off. Whittaker could be great if she had some decent writing behind her… and I like the opening titles. Nothing else holds any promise whatsoever to convince me to keep watching. It’s just a lifeless chore.

I started watching Classic Who earlier this month. I’ve seen a few bits and pieces before (including the entirety of The Five Doctors) but not a huge amount. I watched Episode 2 of The Daleks earlier today. Is is ploddingly slow, Hartnell fluffs pretty much every other line, and I want to strangle Susan…but it holds my attention throughout.

[Ben Saunders]

[Ben Saunders]

That episode was alright. I liked Tesla – just the right amount of social awkwardness without going too far into comedic territory, it felt very natural. I liked him a lot. The villain looks just like the Racnoss, though, to the point that when I saw her in the trailer I thought she was just that. Also – the Doctor’s plan is to shoot at them? What happened to “no guns, Ryan”, which happened about two minutes previous?

Racnoss for reference:

[Ben Saunders]

The Five Doctors is fucking dire in places, and The Daleks is really slow, but it also really sells the desperation of the whole situation, the fatigue, the heat, all that stuff. It is SO grim. It’s really effective.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I have few problems with this weeks episode. That, to me, could have come from any series in the last 15 years. Really well done, good use of guest characters, interesting and enjoyable story with lots going on. The Doctor being the Doctor etc. Telsa was brilliant, played really well. The aliens had a motive even if they don’t look all that original.

I will say though, sack off the 3 companions. The Doctor is better without them. She keeps finding a new companion each week that serves the story better. Just do as the 2010 specials did and have her travel on her own meeting new people each week. Wouldn’t make any difference to the episodes.

Anyway, I’ve been enjoying this series mostly (definitely more than the last one) and this was probably the best of the lot so far.

[Lily]

I didn’t even post last week I was annoyed with how crap it was.

This week, I guess it’s perfectly serviceable Who. It did feel a little wikipedia’ish at points when they’re gushing about Tesla. Would have been nice if they’d showed us him being an amazing inventor instead of just telling us.

I didn’t hate it, so that’s a step up from last week.

[Dave]

I thought it was The Racnoss returning from the trailers too.

[Dave]

It did feel a little wikipedia’ish at points when they’re gushing about Tesla. Would have been nice if they’d showed us him being an amazing inventor instead of just telling us.

See, I don’t mind this too much as it’s clearly aiming for the kids with these sections, and spelling it out clearly (as with Ada Lovelace and Rosa Parks) is probably needed.

[Nick R]

This was shaping up to be probably my favourite historical figure episode since Vincent and the Doctor… until the Scorpion Queen alien showed up. Even so, it’s definitely one of the strongest episodes of the Chibnall era so far.

Once the aliens were revealed, I struggled to buy the central idea that a spacefaring alien species would think that Tesla would be of any use to them at all as an engineer. (I’m sure I’ve been bothered by this in earlier stories a historical scientist or artist has been vital to a Doctor Who alien’s plan, though I struggle to think of any specifics.)

But I liked the way the episode contrasted Tesla’s mind for innovation against the aliens’ status as scavengers who don’t invent anything (therefore paralleling the aliens with the popular, but simplified, depiction of Edison as a credit/patent thief).

Was anyone else distracted by the fact that Tesla, his assistant Dorothy Skeritt, and Edison were allowed to retain knowledge of their adventures, whereas just two episodes ago Ada Lovelace and Noor Inayat Khan had to have their memories wiped? The norm is for Doctor Who to handle it the way this episode did, and so I usually accept it. But because the Spyfall episode aired so recently, the difference jumped out at me – and unfortunately it came across as if the famous men were allowed to keep their memories, but the famous women weren’t.

I’ve seen people justify it by saying that in Spyfall, Lovelace and Khan had time travelled, whereas Tesla, Skeritt and Edison had not. But I’m not sure I accept that late-19th century inventors knowing about a teleporting phone box and the existence of aliens would be any less disruptive to history than an early-19th century mathematician knowing about WW2.

[Ben Saunders]

I assume the argument would be that Tesla et al are viewed as crackpot inventors and that nobody would believe them even if they did write about that stuff. Isaac Newton was really into the occult, and everybody just ignores that aspect of his work. Pythagoras, as well, was nuts.

My least favourite part of the episode was when the supposedly menacing scorpion aliens had a comedy chase scene, where they bump into each other and get mad at each other like they’re the three stooges, and then one of them CRASHES INTO A FRUIT STAND

[Dave]

I took the mind-wipe/non-mind-wipe discrepancy to be more about not making it seem like Spyfall was crediting the Doctor and the time-travel experiences for Ada Lovelace’s later inventions.

With Tesla and Edison they were visited later in their lives, after their major inventions had already taken place, so these wouldn’t be affected by meeting The Doctor in the same way.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

It is incongrious, considering that a) the Doctor hasn’t really wiped minds before and b) she does it to two people and then two episodes later doesn’t do it to another two.

There could well be an explanation, like Dave suggests, and had we been given that we wouldn’t really be complaining. Like, in Spyfall “sorry I have to wipe your mind, you’ve seen too much and I can’t let that affect your life or your inventions you are yet to create”

[Ben Saunders]

I believe they kind of cover it in The Shakespeare Code(?) by saying that Shakespeare will die in like two days anyway

[Ben Saunders]

That or the Dickens one

[Dave]

There could well be an explanation, like Dave suggests, and had we been given that we wouldn’t really be complaining. Like, in Spyfall “sorry I have to wipe your mind, you’ve seen too much and I can’t let that affect your life or your inventions you are yet to create”

I’m sure there was a line hinting at that in Spyfall.

Looking it up, she says to Ada something like “you don’t need a preview, you’ll figure it out before anyone”, which must be where I got the idea.

[Dave]

Well, that was all a bit exciting!

Good episode, some decent mysteries set up (if very little resolved) and a nice surprise with the return of that character. Tying in with the spoiler discussion in several other threads at the moment, it’s nice to have this stuff kept quiet and not leaked in advance.

[Lily]

SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEE

*ahem* long time since I’ve done that, but fuck me was that unexpected and the other thing is so cool and I’ve not been so genuinely excited for the show in a long time. I would say can’t wait for next week but this looks like it’ll take the rest of the series to sort out.

[Nick R]

I was expecting an entertaining but insubstantial rehash of “Smith and Jones” (humans get caught up in the Judoon’s pursuit of a monster of the week), and the first part of the episode seemed to be going that way. I’m please that it turned out to be something a lot more interesting!

(That time period had to be a lot longer than 4 minutes and 30 seconds, though.)

[Dave]

Yeah, feels like there are some big ideas at play here.

But even before those big ideas took over, this was a decent, well-made episode that had my attention and made me want to keep watching. One of the best, if not *the* best, of the Chibnall era.

[Dave]

Thinking about it, this felt a lot like an RTD episode in some ways, and like a Moffat episode in others, while still being very much of the current era. Kind of a ‘best of’ the rebooted show.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

ARRRRGHHHH that was soooooo fucking good!

To echo Dave, right at the start I was thinking this felt very RTD, with Ruth and Lee and their lives and her job and everything and it all seemed to be working really well. Now I know its a shame to have to say the best episode of an era that is shit is only good because it feels like a previous era, but holy hell did it not disappoint when it really got going.

I don’t even know where to start really. Every twist and turn and mystery had me excited and on the edge of my seat. I haven’t felt this way since “INTRODUCING JOHN HURT AS THE DOCTOR” – which is probably quite apt considering what happened.

And what did happen? – I’m going to speculate that our crew have somehow ended up in another universe. At some point during or after Spyfall they’ve crossed over into somewhere else. As that species from Spyfall was dicking around in a lot of different universes.

As for everything else, so glad to see Jack back, and have it teased that he’ll return. He’s definitely returning right. This story isn’t resolved yet and won’t be until later in the series.

THe writing was absolutely spot on. The companions had some stuff to do which was nice. And not a minute of a line of dialogue was wasted.

It was written by Vinay Patel and Chris Chibnall. I’ll speculate that Chris came up with the story and Vinay wrote the bulk of the script. In which case I think that maybe the way to go in the future. Chris has the grand idea and passes it off to someone who can write. We have another writer + Chris next week so we’ll see how that pans out.

I cannot wait until next week now. And will definitely be rewatching this episode before then. Maybe even right now!

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Oh I tell you what. I was chatting with Lily as I was watching this (she’d already seen it and was re-watching with me) and as “Ruth” broke the glass, i was in the middle of typing something along the lines of “has she done a pocket watch job from Family of Blood on herself???” And then before I could hit send she delivered that massive reveal!

Blood marvellous

[Pete Part Three]

I saw a bit of a hubbub on Twitter and decided to tune in and…it just kind of irritated me that it wasn’t a cohesive story, and was just a succession of mystery-box moments. I mean, well done Chibnall for actually learning how to generate a bit of excitement from some fanwank…but when are we actually going to get an episode that doesn’t rely on teasing mysteries to generate excitement?

Still baffled why they’re persisting with this three companions thing. What did they have to do this week? Listen to a warning from Jack. And then deliver that warning to the Doctor. They are basically serving the same purpose as an answerphone message. And there’s three of them. Their dialogue is utterly interchangeable. For the love of god, kill one of them off.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Interesting details. Ruth’s mirror is hexagonal, like the shapes in the TARDIS

[Dave]

I agree with the alternate universes thing. Funnily enough during the first part of Spyfall (where they showed all those different maps of Earth) we speculated in our house as to whether they were all Earths of different universes, and if so whether each universe had its own Doctor…

[Dave]

Interesting details. Ruth’s mirror is hexagonal, like the shapes in the TARDIS

That leapt out at me even on a first watch. So I knew something funny was going on.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

The old lady outside the Cathedral is knitting a 4th Doctor scarf, nearly.

Lee says “humans” in a sarcastic fed up way when the cafe owner is dicking him about. So presumably he is Galifreyan too? Especially as he had the same training as the woman track down Ruth.

I also really love the location work in this episode. It’s beautiful. And glad its not Sheffield, London or Cardiff again.

It’s just all really nice

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I agree with the alternate universes thing. Funnily enough during the first part of Spyfall (where they showed all those different maps of Earth) we speculated in our house as to whether they were all Earths of different universes, and if so whether each universe had its own Doctor…

I’m pretty sure something went through my own mind!

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

The ship Jack is on is definitely a TARDIS of some description. That console is very “TARDIS” which I picked up on first time around, but the floor is also made up of hexagonal tiles.

[Dave]

Yeah, they lingered on the hexagon floor there didn’t they?

[Nick R]

When Ruth said that she moved to Gloucester in December 1999, it reminded me that the 1996 TV movie (which I’ve never seen) was was a Master story set around the 1999-2000 New Year. I wonder if there will end up being some connection to that?

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

YES! It reminded me of that too. It can’t be a coincidence. This is an episode where everything has been considered in detail, that date will have been picked for a reason.

OOOOOOOH! I wonder if Lee is The Master protecting the Doctor in this universe for whatever reason.

Gatt says they had a touching and moving funeral for him. The TV movie opens with The Doctor transporting a dead Master back to Gallifrey.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

The lighthouse looks like the top of the Police box/TARDIS

And at 29mins, there’s a shadow over Ruth’s shoulder that looks like a TARDIS

There is soooo much in this episode that is there if you know to look for it.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

More possible evidence this is a different universe

Re Cybermen “empire in ruins, brought down to nothing, finally” definitely suggests its quite recent. As if its another history, i.e. a different universe

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Ok so this miiiiight be a stretch.

The Beetle Ruth and The Doctor are driving in sort of reminded me of the Third Doctor’s little yellow car for some reason. This might all be a coincidence but it’s an old 1970 J reg Beetle, the same year the Third Doctor appeared on TV.

[Lily]

The lighthouse is just up the road from Cardiff and the owner is a Who fan. I saw it on an old episode of Hotel Inspector a few weeks ago.

He’s got his own tardis on the roof and a life sized dalek in the front hall. Having this filmed there must have been ultimate heaven for him.

http://www.westusklighthouse.co.uk/gallery.html

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Whatever this is, alt universe or different timeline, I’m now leaning on The Darkest Timeline/Mirror Universe. Everyone is a bit bad and evil. Ruth’s Doctor is a fighter who isn’t opposed to using guns. Gatt says she works for “the glory of Gallifrey” …

[Ben Saunders]

Re-solder my circuit boards and call me Gerald. A good episode of Doctor Who.

[Ben Saunders]

The Irish man in the café reminded me of Rory/Arthur Darvill. I was annoyed when he died, I quite liked him.

Some actual funny humour in this episode! I agree that it seems to have been majoratively scripted by Vinay Patel rather than Chris Chibnall, since Chris Chibnall cannot fucking write.

I like Jodie showcasing her PTSD, crying on the Judoon ship, her confused and traumatised by the events she’d just witnessed by the end. This is the first episode in which I haven’t been annoyed at them making Jodie do something Tennant-esque because the writers are too unoriginal to actually give her anything else to do.

Chibnall has to be a Star Trek fan, all these references to anti-matter drive, transporting, matching shield harmonics, etc.

One stupid moment is when the Judoon have to take a recording of a woman speaking in order to decipher that the language is “human.” For a start, if one language was “human” it would be Mandarin, and two, you fucking went to EARTH and have clearly had encounters with this fugitive before, ignoring the events of SMITH AND JONES you should AT LEAST know what fucking planet you’re on and what fucking species they are, and what language they would use, ffs.

I like the Doctor not really knowing what her psychic paper says and being surprised by it – I think they did this once with Eleven, weird that it would suddenly become a “thing” but it’s funny so I don’t care.

Humanity have seen aliens so many god damn times by this point that they really shouldn’t be so shocked by Rhino men stomping around. There aren’t even any cracks in time to make people forget things. UNLESS this really is an alternate universe, and this is first contact for THESE humans.

One should not that Captain Jack does not know that the Doctor has ever been a woman – I won’t say this rules out her being a past Doctor or this being an alternate universe, but Jack’s inclusion in this story makes those possibilities seem slightly less likely.

Loved Jack mistaking Graham for the Doctor – this actually annoyed me in Spyfall because they didn’t do anything with it other than a shit “I’ve had an upgrade” joke, but more is done with it here.

Jack is supposed to be immortal but he looks old lol.

John Barrowman flirting with Mandip Gill feels wrong, she looks about 17. Turns out she’s… THIRTY-FUCKING-TWO?! No way.

If the Judoon’s field is down, why can Jack STILL not get a lock on the Doctor?

Jodie is still quite rude and demanding which makes me question why people would listen to her, follow her and like her, but she’s getting better.

Is scanning graves ethical? It isn’t in Star Trek.

The music when Ruth reveals herself to be a Doctor is very similar to an Angels and Airwaves song called Parasomnia. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Lbn7IYUOSA

They made a black woman the Doctor without making a black woman “The Doctor”, which is very cheeky.

Did the Judoon not once scan the Doctor? Our Doctor, which would give them a positive match?

Will this episode stand the test of time and be as good as we think it is now, removed from the shock of the twists?

Two Time Lords CAN occupy the same space and time. They do it a lot.

Contact is a Vulcan mind meld now.

Another “secret Doctor” mystery, only seven years after the last one.

Lee was just misdirection, I think, especially his “humans” line. You’re supposed to think he’s the fugitive, so that they can pull the twist on you right after. The TARDIS-y ship, as well, possible misdirection I should think. Ordinarily I’d think calling back to the movie like that would be far too much of a stretch, but Chibnall seems to be really plundering canon this series, with a ridiculous amount of references, callbacks and returning characters, etc.

[Dave]

Plus, the whole moon/lagoon rhyming thing was funny.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Humanity have seen aliens so many god damn times by this point that they really shouldn’t be so shocked by Rhino men stomping around

Yet time and time again it is shown we sort of just forget about it within the who universe. Moffat went to great lengths to basically undo RTD era to explain why humans don’t remember, he then on more than one occasion shows humans just forgetting/ignoring alien invasions after they happen.

But equally, what you say is right, if it is another universe this could be the first time they’ve encountered aliens.

Two Time Lords CAN occupy the same space and time. They do it a lot.

Yeah, this annoyed me. Especially as 13 Doctors have all been in the same place at the same time. That said, if this is another universe, maybe they haven’t seen anything like it before. Maybe whoever these Timelords are have all been taught the universe will implode as a way to prevent multiple of the same Timelord teaming up in whatever is going on that demands the “glory of Gallifrey”

Lee was just misdirection, I think, especially his “humans” line.

What do you mean by this? It is heavily implied he is from Gallifrey, same training as Gatt with some sort of war medal. He isn’t a “faithful companion” to Ruth’s Doctor in the same sense we know companions to be, i.e. a human along for the ride.

[Flap Jack]

Yeah, I enjoyed this one a lot! I even correctly predicted that Ruth was the real fugitive, and that there was a chameleon arch in play (though I thought it would be Lee’s medal box), but that didn’t hamper my enjoyment because the twists were just that wild. I definitely didn’t see the final twist coming either. Pour one out for all the fan theorists desperately hoping that one day a mysterious female character in Doctor Who will actually turn out to be Susan or The Rani.

This episode will live or die based on how much they screw up the conclusion. It could be great, but we could also end up with another A Good Man Goes to War on our hands.

As far as criticisms go, my only major one I have is how completely separate and superfluous the Captain Jack stuff felt. Fun to see him again to interact with the new companions, yes, but he was just there to tease future episodes, not to actually contribute to this one.

It’s also not a great sign that the best episodes of this series are the ones where Graham, Ryan and Yaz are separated from the plot for most of the episode and do something inconsequential while The Doctor carries the story.

[Ben Kirkham]

I pray to God that this is an alternate universe (like Big Finish’s Unbound series) and that Chibnall isn’t introducing pre-Hartnell Doctors. That would seriously piss me off. I actually love the idea of a whole alternate universe of different Doctors, but I’d hate Chibnall to create a huge retcon of the series. I think they got away with it with the War Doctor because it was plausible (and it’s John Hurt so why not). But to contradict the classic series would be vandalism, as far as I’m concerned.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I’ve seen a lot of comments suggesting it could be “pre-Hartnell” and I honestly just cannot see Chibnall messing with lore that much. It seems too big of a thing to re-write/add to.

Alternate universe/timeline seems much more plausible, and gives him the freedom to do whatever he wants without upsetting anyone at all.

It really feels as if he is sticking to and drawing from continuity a lot in this, so to then go a big a big fuck you and change a lot of it would be pretty bold.

The War Doctor works because a) it is plausible b) we all understood the reasons why it needed to happen c) it was happening in the 50th anniversary year where a big change like that can come without too much upset and d) it was John fucking Hurt and everyone was on board with that.

For anyone to try that again they’d have to be mighty brave, or mighty stupid.

[Dave]

Yeah, while I’m sure that part of the point is to tease people with the possibility, I don’t see them going with pre-Hartnell Doctors.

[Author]

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