Doctor Who – Series 12

[Dave]

Well, that was a lot of fun, I thought. One of the good things about the show is that it can support so many different styles of story, and I thought they did a Bond-esque spy romp quite well (with a touch of X-Files thrown in).

Everyone seems a little more comfortable in their roles now and there’s a bit more meaningful character development than last series.

Plus, I liked the late reveal, which I didn’t see coming at all.

(And the ‘hiding behind the sofa’ gag made me chuckle.)

As good as anything from the last series.

Topic

[Ben Saunders]

Considering how livid sections of the fanbase were over just the War Doctor and Moffat daring to SHOW the First Doctor doing shit, not even directly contradicting anything, the fallout from introducing pre-Hartnell Doctors would be immense, and I don’t really want that to happen. We actually see Hartnell steal the TARDIS in I think Name of the Doctor, so it would be a huge retcon if Chibnall was to attempt that. Placing Doctors anywhere between Hartnell and now would also fuck with the regeneration limit thing from Time of the Doctor, unless there’s some bullshit where the Time Lords decided to give them a very specific number of regenerations extra, as opposed to a whole new cycle. I would find it funny if they attempt to canonise The Morbius Doctors, which I saw described as an “unexploded continuity bomb” yesterday. But ultimately I don’t really want them to make Ruth a past Doctor, because that’s a bit silly, and they’ve already done that with the War Doctor – it would be too much of a retread. I’m going alternate universe for now, since Gallifrey also exists.

And yeah, Jack was just used as an answering machine this episode, and every other line he had was a sexual innuendo or reference, a bit of a flanderisation of his character – like, we get it, he used to go on about sex a lot, but come on man.

[Ben Saunders]

Throwing a whole ‘nother regeneration into Season 6b would also annoy me, since that is explicitly Troughton, but I don’t think they’ll do that anyway. It’s a bit too complicated to try and explain that to a modern audience who haven’t even seen Troughton/Pertwee. “Oh, by the way, just before the second Doctor was forced to regenerate by the Time Lords and exiled to Earth, which happened by the way, the Celestial Intervention Agency employed him as a special operative in order to…. bringing back his companions who had their minds wiped… teamed up with the Sixth Doctor… and…. then….. plus……”

[Paul Muller]

I’ve been casually dipping in and out of this series, but I enjoyed this one mainly on the basis that it was set and filmed in my home town, even if it was a sort of Bizarro world version of Gloucester that isn’t covered in shuttered shop windows, bored groups of teens, and seagull shit.

[si]

The companions had some stuff to do which was nice.

They remembered that Yaz was in the Police.

And glad its not Sheffield

I’m not.

[Ben Kirkham]

https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2020-01-28/doctor-who-jo-martin-parellel-doctor/amp/

Oh fuck.

[Ben Kirkham]

I hope this is a case of “the showrunner lies” that Moffat was so good at, just to throw people off the scent.

[Dave]

I think it probably is that, yes.

[si]

Someone’s lying.
Is Chibs lying that ‘Ruth’s The Doctor? Is Jodie lying that she’s staying? Was Jodie lying as a ruse so that we didn’t suspect that ‘Ruth’ is The Doctor? Will both Doctors go round Time and Space together? Why is Ruth’s TARDIS interior so much nicer than Jodie’s? And how does John Barrowman’s Cardiff apartment actually look?

[si]

The fact that Chibnall said that she was “definitively” The Doctor, as opposed to ‘Definitely’ The Doctor. Is there really a difference, or am I reading too much into it?

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

That’s just Chibnall bad at writing

[si]

That’s just Chibnall bad at writing

Whatever, it’s still better than s11.

[Ben Saunders]

Speaking of, I have absolutely no expectation or faith in the rest of the series being anywhere near as “good” (interesting) as what we just got. I’m open to being surprised, but there are couple roots this could go down which would just deeply annoy me.

[Ben Saunders]

routes.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

So that was ok. A better way of doing a social commentary on the environment without just having to have a big speech about it all. It all tied in quite nicely.

Quite enjoyed it. Was coherent. The companions, though split up again, largely had stuff to do. Especially Yas, who should some competence.

Not an episode I’d be rushing to re-watch but haven’t come away regretting that I have which is nice.

And glad The Doctor has finally realised her TARDIS can be used to actually go and save people in imminent danger.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I also quite liked how slowly everything felt like it was unravelling too. Was really the last 10mins that things fell into place, before that it was just the characters caught up in a story for 40mins plodding along which gave us time to sit and watch and think about it without having to try and keep up with too much stuff.

[Dave]

Yeah, I thought it was fine. The environmental aspects were much better handled here than earlier in the series, the globe-spanning aspects worked and the dramatic moments landed for me. It also made use of the larger TARDIS team quite well.

Horribly effective makeup/effects for the alien disease too.

And yes, we were shouting at the screen for her to rescue him with the TARDIS at the end so we were pleasantly surprised when she did.

[Dave]

Well that was a load of old guff I thought. I can see what some of the ideas were aiming at, but as a whole it was pretty incoherent.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Funnily enough, for a generic story/monster of the week I thought that was pretty decent.

I like the ideas of ancient aliens feeding off of fear and nightmares. All the companions had a bit to do again which was nice. The Doctor was really pushed to work on her own a bit more this episode and it gave Jodie a time to really show herself being The Doctor.

“You get me an A-Z of the universe and I’ll be able to stick my finger straight on … no I’ve got no idea” is the funniest line in Doctor Who for a long time. I actually legitimately laughed out loud at that.

Interesting that the Doctor’s nightmare (at the moment) is the Timeless Child, when Matt faced his biggest fear in that hotel room (though we didn’t see what it was) so presumably it’s changed since then.

And there was an honourable mention to everyone’s favourite Red Dwarf episode ‘Timewave’ in there so, you know …

[Dave]

Didn’t we find out later that the Eleventh Doctor’s biggest fear (that he sees in that room) was Amy’s crack?

In fairness, this Doctor only just found out about all the Timeless Child stuff so it makes sense it would be her current preoccupation.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Was that was it was meant to be? I don’t remember if that is made explicit, though it would make sense.

[Ben Saunders]

I don’t think we were shown definitively what his fear was, it’s not really the point of the scene, to have it spelled out to you “this is what the Doctor is looking at”, is it? If we are eventually shown it in Time of the Doctor then it’s a sort of retcon.

Just read a forum post from after the episode aired, and people are still debating what it was, so I don’t think we’re told explicitly. It’s easy to assume it was the crack, but my favourite theory is that it was the War Doctor, although I’m pretty sure that would also have to be a retcon. My initial idea was that he saw himself, possibly Nine (or Eight). But War makes sense in hindsight.

[Dave]

Yes, I’m pretty sure Amy’s crack is explicitly revealed later on – I can’t remember exactly when, it might be in Smith’s final episode (which rushes through a lot of that kind of tying-up of dangling loose ends, so could be easily missed.)

[Veni]

You’d think the Doctor would be more than happy to see Amy’s crack.

[Dave]

The joke, there.

[Pete Part Three]

I’ve now fallen asleep watching the last two episodes. Now, this may have something to do with the time of day I’m watching them, but the fact I haven’t been in line to look into how they developed past the twentieth minute probably speaks volumes.’

I might come back to laugh at how bad the finale is at explaining the stuff in Episode 5.

[Pete Part Three]

*inclined, not “in line”.

[Dave]

Very enjoyable this week, I thought. Good and scary in places (my kids had to look away from the screen during some moments) and I liked the way the Cyberman was tied to Frankenstein. Plus it makes for good setup for the two-part series finale.

I also thought Whittaker was better than usual this week, possibly because the material gave her more to work with. It feels like the outburst at the end of the episode about the team has been a while coming.

[Pete Part Three]

Well, I managed to not nod off the week, so things are looking up!

[si]

Best episode of the series for me.

[Veni]

Ben come back, this one’s apparently good again

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

It’s a pretty low bar for being a good episode (that isn’t completely turning the fandom upside down with Ruth and Jack etc) but it was ok. I wasn’t really engaged until the Cyberman turned up, and even once he did it took a bit too keep my attention.

I just felt that so much of the episode I’ve seen in other places. Spooky houses re-arranging themselves, disembodied hands, “ghosts”, and then a broken Cyberman that’s trying to do a different take on it and making it somewhat interesting but ultimately just moving further away from what Cymbermen are about.

I guessed that the lone Cyberman would inform Frankenstein, but its a cool if not obvious idea.

Agree with Dave that Jodie was quite good in this.

There’s some stuff I’ve come away confused about that may have been explained in the episode but wasn’t clear … which is odd because the show has a habit of just exposition dumping everything in dialogue, and this episode felt like no exception.

I imagine for kids, this would be a great, fun, scary episode so that’s something.

Looking forward to the two parter, just hope we’re not let down … though also will quite sadistically sit back and watch the internet implode at whatever inevitably pisses everyone off.

[Ben Saunders]

They’re nine years late on the Frankenstein/Cybermen connection, Big Finish did it already, and even had Mary Shelley travel with the Eighth Doctor for a while. https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/The_Silver_Turk_(audio_story)

That episode was alright. I don’t care anymore. Just as things were heating up towards the end, my mates wanted to play Halo, so I got in a call with them and started setting up the game while the last few scenes played. I’m really excited for Chibbers to completely destroy Doctor Who as we know it with the next two episodes. I hope he burns it to the fucking ground, in a way that makes right wing video essayists have a collective heart attack.

[Flap Jack]

You don’t care? Well, I’m certainly convinced.

Call me an optimist, but I think that if Doctor Who can survive the 80s, the TV Movie, the Time War, River Song, the War Doctor, Hell Bent, and Clara Oswald being directly responsible for The Doctor’s entire life of heroism in multiple ways, then whatever reveals are coming up regarding Gallifrey/The Timeless Child/the Ruthless Doctor will barely register.

[Ben Saunders]

I’ve watched every single episode of Doctor Who, the TV movie, Scream of the Shalka, Dreamland, listened to loads of Big Finish audios, read a few books, a couple comics. I can say with confidence that Jodie’s tenure is the most consistently boring the show has ever been. Even in Colin Baker’s era we got stuff like Vengeance on Varos. The second most boring stint of Who is Davison’s first two seasons, if you’re interested.

>Clara Oswald being directly responsible for The Doctor’s entire life of heroism in multiple ways
People only believe that’s what happened in Name of the Doctor because they want to. The Doctor was a hero all on his own. THEN The Great Intelligence went in and fucked everything up, THEN Clara went in and stopped him. And it was all just an excuse to somehow show clips from Classic Who in the buildup to the 50th anniversary.

[Ben Saunders]

(I can’t really say that with confidence, I’d be very interested in hearing from people who think this era is really exciting)

[Flap Jack]

I’d say the worst of the Chibnall era has been uninspired and predictable, but I can’t agree that it’s ever been so extremely dull that the show is at risk of irreedemably damaged. That’s just hyperbole.

People only believe that’s what happened in Name of the Doctor because they want to. The Doctor was a hero all on his own. THEN The Great Intelligence went in and fucked everything up, THEN Clara went in and stopped him.

I do get that this was the intention, but it was very poorly communicated. Clara was just saving him from random incidents that The Great Intelligence seemed to have nothing to do with (like the literal cliffhanger in Dragonfire). But the part that annoyed me most – even though it wasn’t about heroism – was the part where Clara told the Doctor which TARDIS to steal. Tying such a major part of the backstory of the main character into Clara Oswald (who btw is much less engaging on average than any of the current companions) was just such unearned arrogance.

And of course I wasn’t just talking about Name of the Doctor, but Listen too. Because I guess The Doctor would never have learned not to be cruel or cowardly without Clara terrorizing him as a child. That was greater harm in 1 episode that Chibnall’s managed in 19 for sure.

[Spaceworm Jim]

Listen might have done “harm” (although, personally, I think that’s nonsense) but the acting, writing and direction are better than anything produced for 2019.

Name of the Doctor is fine. It’s FINE. John Hurt!

[Ben Saunders]

The Doctor always chose that TARDIS, though. She was just being a fan, and showing Hartnell/Susan/that moment was just fanwank for the 50th. People’s opinions on this stuff and Hell Bent etc seem so intrinsically linked to whether or not the like Clara. Who, incidentally, I thought was fantastic. The fact that so many people dislike her so much almost makes me like her more. I don’t care that Clara did something potentially a bit important in Listen, because she is great and that episode is stellar.

At no point did I link my point about the show being irredeemably boring to my point of Chibnall potentially ruining everything in the finale. If I were to do so, I would say that I am so bored of the show at this point that I genuinely hope he fucks everything up, to the point of it getting cancelled, so we can try again in 19 years time.

[Flap Jack]

Well, when I say that Listen did “harm” I am speaking in relative terms. It didn’t really matter much in the end, just like it won’t matter if the Series 12 finale has some seismic twist in it. Doctor Who’s canon is flexible and resilient (or non-existent, depending on who you ask), which is part of why it’s such an enduring series.

The Doctor always chose that TARDIS, though. She was just being a fan, and showing Hartnell/Susan/that moment was just fanwank for the 50th.

Yes, I do understand the bootstrap paradox at play here. The episode establishes that The Doctor “always” chose that particular TARDIS because Clara suggested it. Undeniably fanwank, just not the good kind.

Unless you mean that it isn’t a bootstrap paradox, and Richard E. Grant is just off screen in that scene saying “No Doctor, pick that other TARDIS! That one works just as well but is “less fun” and if you have less fun my victory will be assured!”. I can’t deny, if the episode had actually shown that, it might have circled around to being good again.

People’s opinions on this stuff and Hell Bent etc seem so intrinsically linked to whether or not the like Clara. Who, incidentally, I thought was fantastic.

Perhaps that’s true. I haven’t run a survey. But as far as I’m concerned, those aspects of NotD/Listen/Hell Bent wouldn’t work even if it was Sarah Jane in that role. The thing I appreciate about The Doctor’s backstory is that she wasn’t a hero from the get-go. She was (by Time Lord standards) a regular person who fled society out of selfishness, but then over time became a hero through circumstance, which we see occur over the Hartnell era. So establishing that the universe via Clara was grooming The Doctor into being a hero since birth is just incredibly lame. It’s like anti-fanservice.

Clara in general is… fine, I guess. The overall quality of the episodes or companions wasn’t really the point anyway, just the audacity and stupidity of the major reveals and plot turns, which I assumed is what you were expecting Chris Chibnall to potentially “fuck everything up” with, not tedium.

At no point did I link my point about the show being irredeemably boring to my point of Chibnall potentially ruining everything in the finale. If I were to do so, I would say that I am so bored of the show at this point that I genuinely hope he fucks everything up, to the point of it getting cancelled, so we can try again in 19 years time.

Yeah, spite is definitely not the most helpful emotion.

[Ben Saunders]

>The episode establishes that The Doctor “always” chose that particular TARDIS because Clara suggested it.
Nah, he chose it because he chose it, then 50 years worth of adventures happened, then Clara took the opportunity presented to her via being thrown into the Doctor’s timestream to go back to that moment and convince him to do something he was going to do anyway, is my take. Again it’s justt some fun for the 50th anyway.

>Yeah, spite is definitely not the most helpful emotion.
Do try to have some fun for once, I’d much rather the show just got better than got cancelled, I’m beiing hyperbolic

[Hamish]

This *is* fun! Are you mad?

[Flap Jack]

Nah, he chose it because he chose it, then 50 years worth of adventures happened, then Clara took the opportunity presented to her via being thrown into the Doctor’s timestream to go back to that moment and convince him to do something he was going to do anyway, is my take. Again it’s justt some fun for the 50th anyway.

OK, you seemed so sure about this that I was beginning to doubt my own memory. Thanks to whomever decided that all of NuWho should be semi-permanently on iPlayer for how easy it was to check this. Quoth Ms. Oswald:

Doctor?

[The Doctor is already halfway through the entrance of a TARDIS]

Sorry. But you’re about to make a very big mistake.
Don’t steal that one, steal this one.
The navigation system’s knackered, but you’ll have much more fun.

I hope you also take a moment to appreciate how absurdly out of character it is for a pre-Season 1 Doctor to follow the suspicious advice of a complete stranger to deliberately choose an apparently already majorly damaged TARDIS to steal, on trust that “fun” will ensue. XD

Do try to have some fun for once, I’d much rather the show just got better than got cancelled, I’m beiing hyperbolic

Fair enough, but you must know that discerning the difference between earnest hyperbole and lighthearted hyperbole in forum text posts is not so easy.

And hey, I don’t need to resort to cancellation fantasies for fun. The show itself is already fun enough. ;-)

[Veni]

Are we watching the same stuff

[Flap Jack]

No, because I’m from the Berenstein Bears universe, where Doctor Who is a great show and Rob Grant has been the sole writer of Red Dwarf since 1997.

Modern Red Dwarf is significantly lower quality over there, but our Series IX was actually called Series IX, so it balances out.

[Veni]

We actually get to see the Cat-Polymorph sex scene in that timeline, surprisingly more arousing than you’d think. Too bad that timeline’s fandom keeps posting gifs replacing the pipe with a dick

[Ben Saunders]

Well that was no Army of Ghosts, but I’m excited to see how they balls it up next week.

[Dave]

You’re still watching after all, then?

I thought that one was ok, but after setting a lot up quite quickly it felt like they didn’t really do a huge amount with it this episode. I thought it was a mistake not to tie in the ‘mystery’ plot strand with the main story more strongly, and I thought the cliffhanger with the Master was far too vague to really propel things forward into the big finale.

I guess I was hoping for more. There are ingredients there for a decent story, but not enough really happened this week. This one will be easier to judge once we have both parts of it and can see how it works as a larger two-parter.

[Ben Saunders]

>You’re still watching after all, then?
While on my phone discussing it with Quinn and not really invested in what’s going on, yeah

Yeah, it was all fine, I guess (although one Cyberman is a lot more interesting than 10,000), but they didn’t really give us anything to sink our teeth into and get us really hyped up for the finale. I guess the Gallifrey thing is supposed to be that? But that moment was immediately deflated for me because The Master turned up, and I don’t like him

[Ben Saunders]

I completely forgot about those flying Cyberman heads lmao what the fuck was the point of that, it looked so silly

[Dave]

I was reminded of Magrathea and Slartibartfast towards the end.

[Author]

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