Red Dwarf VIII?

[Jawscvmcdia]

It has been more than fifteen years since Red Dwarf VIII was first shown British television, but how well does it hold up?

Given its change in direction, as well as cast of new characters from Bird Man to Chopper, the series has been isolated as a ‘backward step’ but is this the case? One could suggest that it was a brave new step for a series that, by Series VIII, had gotten stale and repetitive. Even by Series VI, the cracks where beginning to show when the writers, Naylor and Grant, had to effectively write out the main ship in the series to come up with new ideas. Eventually by Series VII, this premise had too worn itself out, so a decision to bring back the ship, this time with its original crew, was a risky move but understandable.

Lister’s original mission was to get back to Earth and buy a farm on Fiji with Kochanski. Whilst he did eventually get back to Earth on three occasions, it was obvious to anybody that his plan was far-fetched at best. Getting back to Earth when three-million-years into the future, with a woman who was out of his league, and start a farm in a tropical country in the middle of nowhere wasn’t the smartest of ideas. The whole idea that Lister is supposed to be the last human alive is one that has been thoroughly explored, so isn’t it time for it to be put to resolved?

Topic

[Ridley]

I was a Simpsons addict until I saw the episode with Kid Rock when the family went to Florida. Not sure what season that is but I remember how disappointed I was. At least the movie was good and a recent episode set in Iceland was good too.

“Kill the Alligator and Run”. It’s my Worst. Simpsons. Ever.

Pretty sure I only ever learned the name of it for a thread here.

[Ridley]

Learnt?

[International Debris]

VI is my least favourite of Rob & Doug Dwarf, with action taking precedence over character stuff a bit too much for my taste (I can’t help feeling Rimmerworld would have actually been explored in more depth a la Terrorform in earlier series, rather than it just being the climatic five or ten minutes of the episode), and bringing back three elements of earlier episodes in Emohawk. I also miss the more run of the mill / everyday life aboard ship stuff, which had, admittedly, almost gone in V. I don’t mind some of the formulaic running gag elements of it, though, as they’re pretty much all gags that work well. And, crucially, I still enjoy watching it and find it very funny, which are the most important things.

I do wish they’d left in the original ending of Out of Time, though, largely because VII would have been better set on Red Dwarf – partially because it would have got rid of the nonsense of Starbug being somehow massive on the inside now. And it would have meant no video camera gag. And VIII would have been different. Etc.

[Jonsmad]

Renagade Bob Said… “Maybe I’m a snob, but every time I read that a lot of people really liked VIII and considered it a return to form and all that, I don’t get it. Can someone explain to me how the people who enjoy VIII are able to enjoy it? Is it just that they hated VII more? How is VII not leagues ahead of VIII?

I’d actually be interested in that perspective; if I ever watch VIII again, I’d be stoked to watch it from a different angle, a more positive one, but I just can’t latch onto anything positive. So what am I missing?”

You are looking too close at it’s detail and questioning it, not going along for the ride and laughing.

I enjoyed all of series VIII on broadcast. More than I enjoyed the experience overall of watching VII.
That remains my preference now that VIII is better than 50% to 60% of VII is to me, though my perspective is massively different now to how it was on those shows in the 90s. Some of my hate for parts of VII has faded a little and my love of VIII has massively eroded as it’s many clear faults have been explained online irrefutably so in many cases or have shown up on re-reviewing.

My hate for things in series VIII on first viewing was pretty much just 3 things. A couple of gags I thought were dumb or flat (the post joke, flours joke, dot to dot book joke and there was stuff in VI I hated similar to that before to be honest), secondly Krytens beard (why are we doing a Beadle parody in the late 90s when he wasn’t doing that sort of TV show anymore on tv?? it felt pathetically late to target that as an idea) and thirdly I hated the “Smeg it is” text ending to the series as much as I hated polymorph remastered typing a script on screen at us, as if that’s good enough when you’ve no more time or money to show us something. That was just a few weak points for me in a series I otherwise enjoyed on broadcast.

Coming into series VIII, Red Dwarf had entertained solidly as a well plotted, character driven, 30minute audience sitcom in space for six series, twice In that time presenting a radical twist (the jump from II to III+kryten and series VI being set starbug only, and I managed to jump with them ok both times. Still felt it was a strong show.

VII then I had to suffer that dynamic between cast and LIVE audience missing, especially in ship based scene this impacts most heavily, Then the departure of Chris Barrie, Then the emergence of whining Kryten, kochanski changing actress and having a massive role now, even lister getting wimpy by the end about claustrophobia then losing an arm. And also my then flat mates not liking the changes either and slagging the show off for the first time I was watching with an unappreciative audience. Lot of heartbreak as a fan as some episodes of my favourite show I now agreed with the flat mates on they were shit, other episodes I liked more I had to watch on video when they were out. But Duct Soup (I detest it’s my all time zero point show) and to a lesser extent Epideme and Nanarchy fail mostly as whole shows for me, little bit’s of other shows.

VIII then was a return to form, because that live audience dynamic came back, Chris and Rimmer came back, Red Dwarf came back, lister and rimmer two handed scenes came back, Norm Holly had already come back and was staying, Mac was also back in the twist, and a token Listers mates scene too, Kochanski was a smaller role but for my liking had two funnier set pieces to get involved in this time, if not three plots, some times she was in jeopardy in the gang a bit more against the crew or prison nutters, she felt in the team not the outsider she felt in VII, even if she was marginalised to far less lines or character, I now liked Chloe in the role more. Kryten was back or at least whining much less. At a surface level this was all very much better. We had just got a big wide screen TV for the first time and I was back in the family home, laughing with more casual viewing parents. With the starbug explosion, rat joke (at the time for cgi then, not now), dancing ships, big dinos it all felt pretty exciting and dazzling on the big dolby sound tv and it was more gag, gag, gag again now, so the laughs kept coming, rather than VII’s plots which sometimes felt exposition heavy or relationship/affliction moany. It was a successful space/prison comedy gang runaround romp. Different, Unique to other sitcoms still. Holding 8 million viewers each week. I went along with it, Red Dwarfs third or fourth maybe big jump of what it was. It’s funny like a Bilko/Porridge emulated way, they no longer have a home they control or any power and don’t massively focus on themselves for once because they’ve a world in which conflict is happening to them weekly form outsiders. Performance wise they are still making An audience laugh. A studio audience, and a more general TV comedy audience perhaps. It may have even been by design, that Doug wanted to popularise the series again to make the movie audience large and so went a certain way to try and achieve that, in getting 8 million etc he achieved something like that.

Where it all falls down into a big fat despised dino turd is in looking closer, and questioning, and comparing it to what series 1 to VI delivered. So much of the previous main character is gone or the usual expected interplay or backstory revealing, subtle style of humour is now pantomimed farce most of the time, the sci fi ideas there are a few time travely type bits about future or past or evolution, nanobots, or parallel dimensions but nearly all of that feels like it’s been done before somewhere and is so secondary to “not in front of the boss” worry set ups. Episode structure is all over the fucking place all series. Rather than one twist “The crew is back” we get two twists of “the prison floor” maybe even a cake and eat it third twist of “the canaries” makes an uneven situation for the series with so much potential in it you are forever questioning “but what if they had done it like this.” or stuff like “Where’s Peterson”. It’s full of holes.

If you didn’t once, and naively so perhaps, enjoy series VIII superficially, you are unlikely to ever get it/enjoy it. You could try watching it with people in the room who’ve never seen the show. But if you are a hardened dwarf fan who looks deep your more likely to enjoy the shows you love, and want to moan when you see through series VIII in the context of the whole show history it’s very low ranking and multiple differences and flaws to pick at. I hate Duct Soup, epideme, nanarachy and a few other bits of series VII and even with the intro cast and such have different opinions on those etc I find it still impossible to really engage with those episodes to any great enjoyment.

[Phil]

“Bart to the Future” is what killed The Simpsons for me. The first time I felt truly baffled was The “Principal and the Pauper,” but overall the rest of season 9 was pretty good. I was glad to view it as an exception.

“Bart to the Future,” for whatever reason, just convinced me it was over. And while I know there have been a few truly good episodes after that, they were infrequent enough that I’m convinced I got out at the right time.

[Renegade Rob]

> You are looking too close at it’s detail and questioning it, not going along for the ride and laughing.

First of all, it’s Renegade Rob. Renegade Bob is my cousin, we’re not on speaking terms.

Second of all, I get your point about not taking it too seriously, and to some extent, yeah, you have a point. I’ll even admit that, having had a drink or two, I’ve put in VIII and laughed more than once.

But here’s the thing: it’s not about just looking at its detail and questioning it. I do indeed do that a lot; it’s part of being a geek. But even on a first watch, classic Red Dwarf was always something that took itself seriously and had a coherent plot and well-drawn characterization. Those things aren’t aspects that you consider by picking something apart too deeply; they’re just basic competence. These things are largely absent in VIII. Even on a cursory, non-serious, non-sober viewing of VIII, it just doesn’t hold together. There’s not really a ride to go on. The tracks don’t connect.

Maybe I can see that VIII has a sense of “fun” that VII lacks. Sure, okay. And yes, the audience is better. And sure there are bunkroom scenes. The highs of VIII might even rival or surpass the highs of VII. But the lows… Jesus. (of Caesarea)

Your explanation is helpful. I still can’t find it in myself to ignore the lows, because holy shit. But yes, the “sense of fun,” misguided as it is, is there. I still prefer a more dour tone because that’s sort of where Series I began from, finding comedy from a serious sci-fi setting. The bunkroom and audience… those ARE things to grab onto and enjoy. So thank you. I’ll never really enjoy VIII, but your explanations have given me a slight foothold to possibly, with the proper lack of sleep and substance intake, seeing what entertainment value it potentially has. Maybe it’s not zero. It might even be one over infinity.

[Pete Part Three]

> You are looking too close at it’s detail and questioning it. You are looking too close at it’s detail and questioning it, not going along for the ride and laughing.

Don’t really understand this. Red Dwarf was never supposed to be “switch your brain off and enjoy”. I hated VIII in 1999 and hated it when I last mustered up the courage to watch it . I’ve no inclination to ever watch it again.

I’d “go along for the ride” if it made me laugh. It does not.

>“Bart to the Future” is what killed The Simpsons for me.

Saddlesore Galactica did it for me. By the time Homer got raped by a panda a season later, I wasn’t even paying much attention.

[International Debris]

The problem with the bunkroom scenes in VIII is they’re shit. The early bunkroom scenes usually explore something about Rimmer and Lister’s characters and their interactions with each other – they even have moments of poignancy. The ones in VIII are almost all whimsical, often with Lister playing a far stupider character than anyone in a believable programme would (dot-to-dot, Petersen planning his own funeral, etc.). They’re usually just a chance for a bunch of very weak gags: something VIII is full of, but by putting them in a bunkroom, the comparison with previous series is actually accentuated – like when a band have past their prime and do shitty re-recordings of their classic songs and end up highlighting just how far they’ve fallen.

[Ridley]

–“Bart to the Future” is what killed The Simpsons for me.

Saddlesore Galactica did it for me. By the time Homer got raped by a panda a season later, I wasn’t even paying much attention.

The rest of Season 10 after “When You Dish Upon a Star” was where my enjoyment of the show trailed off. Treehouse of Horror IX was the first warning sign (the Jerry Springer one) as the first three episodes of season and Dish – episode five – are from the season nine production block/code/whatever.

I like The Principal and the Pauper by Ken “‘The Devil’s Hands are Idle Playthings’ and ‘Meanwhile'” Keeler.

[peas_and_corn]

The DVD is worth buying if for no other reason than to hear Ken explain what exactly he was trying to say when he wrote the episode.

[Stephen R. Fletcher]

> The DVD is worth buying if for no other reason than to hear Ken explain what exactly he was trying to say when he wrote the episode.

And how almost pissed off he seems to sound as the commentary goes on.

Like Series VIII of Red Dwarf, I enjoyed the later seasons of Simpsons more when I saw them first air, and didn’t really notice the flaws till going on the internet a few years later. I can’t really recall a particular episode of The Simpsons which first made me feel the decline in quality was noticeable and there was no going back, but I can recall the one episode that truly pissed me off when I first saw it – and it still makes me really angry the few times I’ve watched it since. It was the episode “The Boys of Bummer” in Season 18. Possibly the cruelest episode they’ve ever done. It made me REALLY hate the townspeople of Springfield. The way they treat Bart in the episode after he loses a Little League game is shocking! It truly baffles me how the writers thought ANY of it was funny and not just completely fucking cruel.

[Phil]

“I like The Principal and the Pauper by Ken “’The Devil’s Hands are Idle Playthings’ and ‘Meanwhile’” Keeler.”

I thought I responded to this but I guess I didn’t.

Just want to say that I love Ken Keeler. He wrote some awesome stuff, especially when he graduated to Futurama, where his hit-rate was incredible.

I have nothing against him, but Principal and the Pauper is indeed shit.

P&C is right, though: it’s worth watching with the commentary.

[Ridley]

Owning seasons one through ten on DVD has been on the to-do list but other stuff gets in the way.

[Stephen R. Fletcher]

Better hurry up. Sadly, FOX has decided to stop making any more Simpsons DVDs. I don’t know if that means they’ll also stop making more copies of the previous releases, but with FOX, you never know.

[Ridley]

Thanks for the heads-up.

[International Debris]

I remember my first ‘er, what?’ Simpsons episode (other than The Principal & the Pauper which, satire on reset buttons aside, is shit) was Screaming Yellow Honkers, although looking back at season 10 now, I remember Bart the Mother, Kidney Trouble, Mayored to the Mob, Viva Ned Flanders, Mom and Pop Art and Thirty Minutes Over Tokyo also left me pretty cold on first viewing – some good jokes, but they definitely left me with a feeling of ‘this isn’t the same programme’. They just break with the reality of the show a bit too much (particularly stuff like ending the episode with Homer flooding the whole of Springfield)

Yeah, I stand by Seasons 2 – 9 being the period of the show I like. Eight series, not much in the grand scheme of how long it’s been on.

[Pete Part Three]

190 episodes is still a pretty amazing achievement.

[Ridley]

P&C is right, though: it’s worth watching with the commentary.

Have now watched the episode with and without commentary. Does anywhere have the lines that were cut?

Laughed at “I’d sure hate to get a dozen crapweeds for Valentine’s Day. I’d rather have candy.” for the first time. Which was nice.

[Pete Part Three]

I watched Some Unenchanted Evening with the commentary on recently, but had to switch it off as there wasn’t nearly enough apologising about it.

[Pete Part Three]

Some *Enchanted* Evening. What happened to the edit button?

[Jawscvmcdia]

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