How Series VII should have started

[gerrydelasel]

I never liked how at the beginning of series VII they just wave away the previous cliffhanger. “Yeah they killed us but we’re alive again now” is lazy writing. Not just that, they also added an extra clip of future Starbug shooting present Starbug, which didn’t actually add anything to the narrative. Then when I learned they filmed an alternate ending that could have been borrowed, I got even more ticked off! So I made my own edit: How Series VII should have started. Now, you’ll have to excuse me, I’ve already said too much.

 

Topic

[Dave]

Isn’t this more “how Series VI should have ended”? It would have been really weird to start VII with a deleted scene from VI and then suddenly switch to the rest of the series looking completely different. 

[gerrydelasel]

They could have re-filmed the same scene with Series 7 costumes, if you prefer. I don’t have that luxury.

[Warbodog]

It was also a deleted scene that hardcore fans had already seen (most of) on the Smeg Ups tape. I hadn’t at the time, but it still would have been very obviously held-back 1993 footage, unless you’re proposing that they reshot the scene in the 1997 merging-universes-bollocks-justified style. Edit: Which you just did.

[clem]

The only thing that unused ending really has going for it imo is that at least it wouldn’t have been contradicted by JFK disappearing after he assassinates himself. The urine recyc gag is decent I suppose, but I hate ‘Smeg! I’m a hero!’. Obviously I don’t like the resolution we got in Tikka to Ride either. They should have had it turn out to all be in a reality bubble.

Isn’t this more “how Series VI should have ended”? It would have been really weird to start VII with a deleted scene from VI and then suddenly switch to the rest of the series looking completely different. 

I know you aren’t suggesting otherwise, Dave, but regardless of how the story got resolved, Series VI ended exactly the way it should have. The cliffhanger itself is perfect. Was it Rob or Doug who didn’t want the cliffhanger ending? Or have I made that up altogether?

[Dax101]

Looking back. The cliffhanger does feel a little pointless. Rob and Doug did it for a hype factor. To get people talking. But when you realise how quickly it was resolved in Series 7. it almost seems like series 6 resolved itself but just didnt want to mention it.

But was there really anyway you could make that cliffhanger really carry any weight going forward?

[Rushy]

But was there really anyway you could make that cliffhanger really carry any weight going forward?

Maybe the destruction of Starbug is averted, but the ship still retains the damage from the battle prior and is even more fucked up than in VI. Really squeeze all the absurdist comedy out of survivalism. 

[International Debris]

I’ll be honest, I’ve never understood the anger the resolution gets. Although maybe that’s because I was sure that’s how it would resolve, because… well, it makes sense. I explained it to a kid at school and he was unconvinced and then I felt very smug when the pre-credits scene came along.

I dunno, maybe a sci-fi cliffhanger should have a resolution an 11 year old can’t guess but I felt satisfied. 

Of course they should have gone back to get the time drive and used it to get Red Dwarf back and then stole it from themselves making the whole arc a bootstrap paradox, removing the necessity for STARDISbug, and relegating VIII as we know it to non-existence, but then I’ve made this point before.

[Warbodog]

regardless of how the story got resolved, Series VI ended exactly the way it should have. The cliffhanger itself is perfect.

Yeah, I saw it when I was 8 and it’s the defining cliffhanger of my life. Being made to wait so long in child years was annoying, but my suffering probably made it all the better in retrospect. How it resolved doesn’t matter as much to me because VII’s dispensable anyway.

[Dave]

Oh, Out Of Time is perfect and that cliffhanger still gives me chills. I just meant that if you’re going to add back in that deleted scene from Out Of Time, it probably belongs in Out Of Time rather than another episode. 

[gerrydelasel]

but I hate ‘Smeg! I’m a hero!’.

I’m curious to know what bothers you about it?

[clem]

I’ve never understood the anger the resolution gets. Although maybe that’s because I was sure that’s how it would resolve, because… well, it makes sense.

But doesn’t Rimmer fixing everything by blowing up the time drive make just as much sense? 

[Warbodog]

I found “smeg, I’m a hero” really cringey the first time I saw it (on the VI DVD, I think?), after being used to the Smeg Ups edit of the scene that didn’t include it. It’s softened by the canned laughter here though, so they could have got away with it.

[Ben Saunders]

Science fiction has a long and storied history of basically needless cliffhangers with naff resolutions, and VI – VII (omg he said it) is one of the better examples. The end of VI works because it really amps up the tension and drama to incredible levels, and then doesn’t deflate it right at the very end with a pointless scene saying oh by the way they escaped. I never got the derision of the opening to VII, they deal with it in a short, funny (yes) sequence and move on. It’s that or ignore it completely really.

[Dave]

Science fiction has a long and storied history of basically needless cliffhangers with naff resolutions

[clem]

‘Smeg, I’m a hero!’ is just a corny line and Chris’s delivery isn’t very good. Plus I think it’s better for Rimmer to try but fail by a gnat’s wing to save the day. I suppose in that regard I prefer the resolution we got. 

[gerrydelasel]

Nothing wrong with a naff resolution. In pretty much every episode they cheat death with a wave of the hand, and end on a gag. But series VII made the mistake of telling instead of showing.

[clem]

I never got the derision of the opening to VII, they deal with it in a short, funny (yes) sequence and move on.

The only thing I really dislike about the actual pre-title sequence is the stupid exploding cameras gag. Doug clearly wanted to ring the changes with Tikka to Ride and after such a long time perhaps a quick handwavey resolution wasn’t a bad way to go. I think maybe what doesn’t sit right is doing a glib handwave like that, but then using it to create Starbig (sic) and make it so that the time machine is also a teleporter now. It feels forced. 

[Dax101]

Since it was 3 years after and they had pretty much changed everything like the sets, the costumes and make up. They likely knew they couldn’t just film a scene set directly after. The starbug set for example in Series 7 looks the same, but there are noticeable differences. Krytens make up also isn’t the same.

In the end they just used the same logic but through dialogue.

[Podey]

My issue with the resolution is just that it renders Rimmer’s actions in the cliffhanger inert.

They set it up like it was going to be Rimmer destroying the time drive that saved them (I always thought the exploding Starbug would be revealed to be the future Starbug being obliterated from history), but by having it be the deaths that save them means it made absolutely no difference whatever Rimmer did in that sequence.  

He could have died in the cockpit with the rest and the same thing would have happened, so that whole brilliantly dramatic cliffhanger sequence is then pointless.

[Dax101]

Its interesting because in the series 7 flashback they add a shot of their future selves firing and blowing them up. They cut the shot of Rimmer shooting at the timedrive. So for whatever reason i guess Doug preferred the idea of the full circle event of them being killed by themselves and resetting things.

[clem]

My issue with the resolution is just that it renders Rimmer’s actions in the cliffhanger inert.  

They set it up like it was going to be Rimmer destroying the time drive that saved them (I always thought the exploding Starbug would be revealed to be the future Starbug being obliterated from history), but by having it be the deaths that save them means it made absolutely no difference whatever Rimmer did in that sequence.  

He could have died in the cockpit with the rest and the same thing would have happened, so that whole brilliantly dramatic cliffhanger sequence is then pointless.

I mean, that’s why I prefer it. Of course the one time Rimmer does something heroic he’s not actually going to manage to save the day. 

[clem]

So maybe that’s what should have happened. Rimmer blows up the time drive, thereby saving them all, and then just as he’s basking in the glory of being the hero and Lister and even the Cat are bigging him up, Kryten figures out that the end result would have been exactly the same if he’d done nothing and their future selves had killed them all. 

[Podey]

My issue with the resolution is just that it renders Rimmer’s actions in the cliffhanger inert.  
They set it up like it was going to be Rimmer destroying the time drive that saved them (I always thought the exploding Starbug would be revealed to be the future Starbug being obliterated from history), but by having it be the deaths that save them means it made absolutely no difference whatever Rimmer did in that sequence.  
He could have died in the cockpit with the rest and the same thing would have happened, so that whole brilliantly dramatic cliffhanger sequence is then pointless.

I mean, that’s why I prefer it. Of course the one time Rimmer does something heroic he’s not actually going to manage to save the day. 

But it also means that they were never going to do anything except survive once they came under attack which is far less dramatically satisfying than it existing in a universe where they could be killed by their future selves. 

I’m aware this series of events makes less sense as soon as Kryten says “but if you kill us, you’ll cease to exist” but I can just about headcanon it into plausibility.

I have often wondered what was happening on the future ship during each death, did their counterparts each vanish? Did they each take control of the shot that killed their younger self? Was it old Rimmer targeting young Rimmer right at the end? 

[Podey]

So maybe that’s what should have happened. Rimmer blows up the time drive, thereby saving them all, and then just as he’s basking in the glory of being the hero and Lister and even the Cat are bigging him up, Kryten figures out that the end result would have been exactly the same if he’d done nothing and their future selves had killed them all. 

That works!

[Dax101]

But why would you want to undercut Rimmers heroics? This was Rimmers rare moment of bravery and being a hero. This was a big deal for Rimmer to do something brave.  I don’t think you needed to undo it by giving Rimmer a reminder that he can’t catch a break. That feels more of a Dave era type of thing. While the show at that time didn’t feel the need to laugh at Rimmers constant failure.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Whilst the actual outcomes are annoyingly different, I assume Doug was trying to open the show on the way he closes it, a character killing another version of himself to reset a timeline

It’s not quite identical and of course Kennedy killing Kennedy means he’s actually dead and not alive, but the thematic link is there I guess. 

[Podey]

That’s the thing though, the Kennedy killing Kennedy thing is consistent with the future selves being able to kill their past selves, it’s only changing what happened that muffs it up.

it’s almost like the episode was written with that original intention in mind and then the resolution was rewritten to spruce it up or make it more thematically linked without realising how it contradicts what comes later.

[Me Own Stunts]

Looking back. The cliffhanger does feel a little pointless. Rob and Doug did it for a hype factor. To get people talking. But when you realise how quickly it was resolved in Series 7. it almost seems like series 6 resolved itself but just didnt want to mention it.

But was there really anyway you could make that cliffhanger really carry any weight going forward?

I always believed that Doug Naylor misunderstood his own series 6 cliffhanger when he came to work on series 7.  The bit about them all dying wasn’t the main aspect for me (although that dramatic kick certainly elevated the episode) – it could only ever have been resolved with something a bit hand-wavy:  you either spend time showing/explaining the arbitrary reason for why they’re all back alive again, or you just accept that they are and move on with the new storylines of series 7.

But for me the core of the cliffhanger was that Rimmer had saved the day.  He had been selfless, brave and come to everyone’s rescue.  This is what I was interested in seeing resolved, and the way this was brushed aside in 1997 is what frustrated me so much about the start of series 7.  We had seen Rimmer save the day, and now we were being gaslit into a narrative that their future selves had done it actually.

How could the series 6 cliffhanger carry any weight going forward?  By acknowledging that Rimmer had saved the day, showing Rimmer’s raised confidence that he might have more potential than he’d ever known.  Then we have Stoke Me A Clipper and Ace Rimmer turns up.  Rimmer is still sceptical that he can become Ace, but having just saved the crew he has something to build on.

And then all they needed to do was make the rest of series 7 less shit and never make series 8, and we’d have been laughing.

The events of The Beginning revisit this ground and try to let Rimmer grow, but Doug doesn’t seem to know what to do with Rimmer-as-hero, preferring to reset the status quo at the start of series 11.  The one opportunity to do it right was to resolve the one Red Dwarf cliffhanger everyone cared about, when Chris Barrie was planning to leave the show for good.

[Turk Thrust]

When ‘Out of Time’ was broadcast, I remember my older brother immediately saying, “Well, it’s obvious isn’t it? Rimmer shot the time drive and destroyed the other Starbug.”

Then, when Smeg Ups was released, that was confirmed to be the case.

When ‘Tikka to Ride’ was broadcast, my reaction was, “That’s clearly not what happened,” and it didn’t feel like the same Red Dwarf to me. That feeling kept coming back throughout VII and beyond. 

[Frank Lewis]

I’ll be honest, I’ve never understood the anger the resolution gets. Although maybe that’s because I was sure that’s how it would resolve, because… well, it makes sense. I explained it to a kid at school and he was unconvinced and then I felt very smug when the pre-credits scene came along.
I dunno, maybe a sci-fi cliffhanger should have a resolution an 11 year old can’t guess but I felt satisfied. 
Of course they should have gone back to get the time drive and used it to get Red Dwarf back and then stole it from themselves making the whole arc a bootstrap paradox, removing the necessity for STARDISbug, and relegating VIII as we know it to non-existence, but then I’ve made this point before.

I’m all for eliminating VIII.

[Warbodog]

When ‘Out of Time’ was broadcast, I remember my older brother immediately saying, “Well, it’s obvious isn’t it? Rimmer shot the time drive and destroyed the other Starbug.”
Then, when Smeg Ups was released, that was confirmed to be the case.

The blast from future Starbug before the explosion was always in Out of Time, but I also didn’t register it as a kid (when watching at least twice on repeats before VII). Unless it was being interpreted as some kind of… time blast hitting future Starbug.

My interpretation was that Rimmer had blasted the engine or something to deliberately blow them up (maybe having realised this might reset things, or even if not, better dead than smeg). Which I think is still better than their future selves killing them, because he’s at least guaranteeing they won’t grab the Time Drive, which a surviving Future Rimmer or whatever could still have tried.

[Me Own Stunts]

There’s that weird moment in the series 6 DVD documentary when Chris Barrie says something like “the one time in life you successfully make a toys r us gun painted grey look like it has some physical weight to it, and they go and cut it from the episode”. 

Did anyone ever say to him “Psst, Barrie mate; the scene is right there.  Look, you’re missing it!  Look at the television now – the scene is right there!!”

I like to think that believing it was cut was the catalyst for him leaving in series 7, and then seeing the scene included at the start of Tikka to Ride is what brought him back for series 8.

[Rushy]

I just started thinking about Barrie’s series 7 commentaries again and wanted to giggle to myself. 

[Unrumble]

There’s that weird moment in the series 6 DVD documentary when Chris Barrie says something like “the one time in life you successfully make a toys r us gun painted grey look like it has some physical weight to it, and they go and cut it from the episode”. 

That comment always makes me think “you could get toy guns from Toys R Us that big?!”

[Warbodog]

That comment always makes me think “you could get toy guns from Toys R Us that big?!”

[clem]

The point of the cliffhanger is that you don’t know which Starbug just exploded. I mean surely that was their intention. Having said that, why would future Starbug explode instead of simply disappearing or whatever.

The blast from future Starbug before the explosion was always in Out of Time, but I also didn’t register it as a kid (when watching at least twice on repeats before VII). Unless it was being interpreted as some kind of… time blast hitting future Starbug.

This is what I thought when I first saw OOT too. It could be a blast from the future Starbug’s laser cannon, or a timey-wimey thing that happens as the timeline begins to reset. And the future Starbug blows up because the space-time continuum has showmanship I guess?

[gerrydelasel]

Precisely. Then in TTR they needlessly added the extra shot of one Starbug definitely shooting the other Starbug for some reason, even though it added nothing to Lister’s explanation anyway. I know what I saw at the end of series VI, don’t try to gaslight me, Doug.

I don’t think you needed to undo it by giving Rimmer a reminder that he
can’t catch a break. That feels more of a Dave era type of thing.

You always hit the nail on the head, Dax!

[Jenuall]

Yeah for me what we see in OOT was always future Starbug getting destroyed by timey wimey shenanigans caused by Rimmers heroics in destroying the drive. In my head that’s why there was no debris left behind – it’s not a ship being destroyed by a laser cannon, it’s a ship literally being exploded out of existence (or, indeed, time)

[Dave]

[Flap Jack]

I never interpreted that explosion as being ambiguous at all. It was definitely Starbug Prime. Considering the set up is that we see Rimmer trying to blow up the time drive, but then it cuts away before impact to show (a) Starbug exploding, the cinematic language is very clear. Technically they could have revealed that it was actually the future Starbug that happened to, but it would have been a flagrant cheat and I’m not sure I would have liked it.

Also, come on, “being erased from time by causality” is not going to be visualised as a laser beam impact followed be an extremely tangible explosion. It just isn’t. Maybe they could pull it off if it wasn’t them being erased, but a third ship coming in to save the younger Starbug by shooting at the older one. Ace Rimmer, maybe? Actually that could have worked as a resolution – Rimmer is still fully heroic by destroying the time drive and bringing the others back to life, but everyone just celebrates Ace destroying future Starbug instead.

Overall though, what makes the Out of Time ending uniquely good is that it becomes properly serious and then never undercuts it. So even though the Tikka to Ride explanation was lacklustre, I’m glad we got that instead of the urine recyc ending in the episode itself.

(Also, how did I not realise the extra added shot of future Starbug firing in Tikka to Ride until now. WTF.)

[Podey]

Considering the set up is that we see Rimmer trying to blow up the time drive, but then it cuts away before impact

That’s not true, we see the time drive explode when Rimmer shoots it. The exploding Starbug DEFINITELY happens after the time drive has been shot. 

As referenced above, I always took the debris from the exploded Starbug fading away to nothing as a clue it was future Starbug being erased from the timeline. We’ve seen ships explode loads of times but they’ve never vanished in the middle of it before.

[gerrydelasel]

On film, simultaneous events have to be shown successively; the exact order of events in a rapid action sequence is open to interpretation. It could be future Starbug exploding after Rimmer shoots the time drive, or it could be present Starbug exploding at the same moment Rimmer shoots the time drive. Both make perfect sense, cinematically.

Also, come on, “being erased from time by causality” is not going to be
visualised as a laser beam impact followed be an extremely tangible
explosion. It just isn’t

Sure it can, you just have biased expectations from years of watching other time travel shows. Have you ever seen a causality paradox resolve itself in real life? I sure haven’t.

Overall though, what makes the Out of Time ending uniquely good is that it becomes properly serious and then never undercuts it.

Absolutely!

[Warbodog]

Good observations, Podey. I’d never taken it for the future Starbug, but like Rimmer enjoying the Om song, I get the perspective now.

I’m not convinced they actually intended it to be ambiguous, but clever if so.

[Dave]

I’m one of the people who gaslit themselves into thinking there never was a laser blast on the original broadcast, just an explosion, so I always find this subject complicated. 

[Podey]

My headcanon is that it’s the energy from the destroyed time drive catching up with it’s future version. Like two points on a timeline connecting and then folding in on itself. 

[Nick R]

But was there really anyway you could make that cliffhanger really carry any weight going forward?

Here’s an idea to give some weight to that cliffhanger, which would never happen for many good reasons, but was fun to come up with:

Tikka to Ride picks up immediately after the future crew have killed our present day (“Starbug Prime” as Flap Jack put it) crew, and follows what happens to those Future Selves afterwards. For reasons unrelated to curry, they time travel back to 1963 Dallas, and do things as they happen in the existing episode: they disrupt the JFK assassination, get stuck in Dallas, and escape by persuading JFK to assassinate himself. After that, something something handwave handwave, they realise how irredeemable they are, and that they should not have attacked their younger selves. So they use the time drive to go back in time to the end of Out of Time. The Future-Future Selves’ Starbug crew shoots the Future Selves’ Starbug, preventing the explosions on Starbug Prime from killing Lister, Cat and Kryten. The Future-Future Selves and the Future Selves have a battle and kill each other, letting “our” crew escape and survive.

Advantages of this are that it makes Out of Time and Tikka into a true two-parter, and adds some dramatic weight by turning the Future Selves from cartoons and into characters with their own arc. (That arc being: “Being evil is wrong.”)

Of course that still leaves you with the inconsistency that an erased-timeline-person-killing-their-past-self sometimes immediately sticks as a permanent change to the timeline (JFK killing himself) but sometimes does not stick (after killing our present-day Starbug crew, the Future Selves survive long enough to have their adventure in Dallas).

But the big reason to avoid doing the episode like that is that it would mean spending an episode following the horrible Future Selves crew (complete with the quite hideous thing that’s happened to Lister).

[Podey]

[Flap Jack]

That’s not true, we see the time drive explode when Rimmer shoots it.

Good point! I suppose what I mean is, the shot of the time drive exploding is so brief and the cut away is so fast that you don’t fully take it in. Or at least I didn’t. Maybe this is my equivalent to not noticing the laser fire before Starbug explodes.

But whether the cut is mid explosion or prior to it, it cuts away mid action. The explosion of the time drive isn’t finished, and it is superseded by the explosion of Starbug, which creates the clear implication that Rimmer was too slow.

Sure it can, you just have biased expectations from years of watching other time travel shows. Have you ever seen a causality paradox resolve itself in real life? I sure haven’t.

I wasn’t saying that it can’t, I was saying that it wouldn’t. At least, it wouldn’t if the creators involved actually wanted to give the audience any inkling that’s what was going on.

I’m not fully discounting the possibility of Rob and Doug pulling some “man you thought was dead was actually just sleeping motionlessly in a pool of someone else’s blood” bullshit, I’m just acknowledging that if they did that, it would be bullshit.

Also it’s not just other time travel shows but Red Dwarf itself, in Timeslides, The Inquisitor, and Tikka to Ride afterwards too. Although admittedly it would have been funnier if Kennedy had finished assassinating his younger self and then instead of solemnly fading away, erupted into a giant fiery explosion. Preferably mid sentence.

[Warbodog]

I wouldn’t say the Future Selves are just cartoons anyway. They’re played for laughs and chills very well. It feels wrong that our guys would become quite that corrupted, but Lister’s accident and Kryten’s guilt or depression about it could lead to them not giving a shit any more, and Rimmer and Cat didn’t have far to fall anyway.

Then even after they maturely decide to resist the temptations of time travel, Lister goes behind their backs for just one more totally safe trip in Tikka, then just one more at the end of the Xtended episode, he promises.

[Rushy]

The Future Selves are almost entirely carried by Rimmer. Something about his accent (slight hint of German?) and dead eyes just gets under my skin. 

Kryten has a few good moments too, but the Cat and Lister are non-entities. The latter in particular seems like a missed oppurtunity, given how furious our Lister is at what he sees. You’d think there would be a brief confrontation between them, but they never exchange words. 

[Author]

Replies