Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum Refresh For The Memory: Series 1 Byte 2

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  • #276027
    Loathsome American
    Participant

    The problem of why Rimmer-2 is noticeably more hostile and aggressive than Rimmer-1 is something I’ve given some thought to. The possibilities as I see them are:


    1.) RIMMER-1 AND RIMMER-2 ARE NOT IDENTICAL

    This is the (arguably authorial intent) idea that Rimmer-1 has softened over Series I, whereas Rimmer-2 is a “fresh” version. This is the most dramatically satisfying option, I think, because it implies character growth. The downside is that…I’m not sure end-of-Series-I Rimmer has actually undergone enough growth on screen to really sell the idea as well as it should be. Also the fact in-text that Rimmer-2 already seems to be up to speed and able to join in the conversation in real time when he’s booted up.


    2.) RIMMER-1 AND RIMMER-2 ARE IDENTICAL

    Philosophically there’s an argument that they would both equally be the “real” Rimmer, but neither Rimmer is much of a philosopher. Rimmer-1 makes the argument in the theater that he’s the “real” one just because he was there first; if they really are identical, Rimmer-2 would probably agree with the logic of that despite himself. So either Rimmer-2 is projecting due to an inferiority complex or, with the “survival of the fittest” mindset Rimmer has (or at least “survival of the most weasely”), Rimmer-2 is purposefully trying to drive Rimmer-1 to despair so that Rimmer-1 will volunteer to switch himself off. I think this is the most psychologically interesting option, but there’s even less evidence for this on screen than Rimmer-1’s personal growth. It does solve some of the problems of option #1 though.


    3.) RIMMER-2 SHOULD BE IDENTICAL BUT ISN’T FOR SOME OTHER REASON

    This could be a corruption of the physical disk (my earlier musing that the skutters might have messed something up bringing the disks outside) or some processing issue Holly is having maintaining two holograms. We see in “Psirens” that the personality aspects are loaded piecemeal, so maybe Rimmer-2 was booted up with his “negative” aspects all dialed up or unbalanced (which long-term might have led to the sort of overload/crash we see even later in “Trojan”). This is the most pleasingly (alternately: the most torturously) fanwanky and can be leveraged for all sorts of theories about why they never tried running a second hologram again, but it does kind of reduce all the character comedy and insight into Rimmer’s personality in “Me2” as some external technology issue.

    #276028
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Why is it assumed that this is the first time Rimmer “met” his double? He could have met/tested him before his introduction to the others. If so, you KNOW he couldn’t have NOT told his double about that. If for no other reason than to lord it over Lister. In the novel he did test all the ones from the Nova 5 before thinking of himself as a candidate.

    Well, because it would be very weird for Rimmer to find the loophole about running 2 holograms at once and launch a duplicate of himself briefly, just so he could prepare him to be quippy in the event he gets turned on again by Lister.

    It’s such a minor benefit it hardly seems worth the hassle, and Rimmer would be risking Lister catching him in the act, which would clue Lister in about the 2 holograms possibility early, as well as reveal that Kochanski’s disk wasn’t in her box.

    Plus, very good chance Rimmer 2 would refuse to be turned off after that first switch on.

    #276029

    But I think them sharing the same Series 1 memories fits how they’re played in Me^2, where they’re behaving very similarly to each other until they fall out. Rather than Rimmer 1 being noticeably more adjusted to his post-mortem existence than Rimmer 2.
    Yeah I agree, it is more played that way. But then there has to be some reason why they react slightly differently to things – why one Rimmer is slightly more overbearing and the other one slightly more weedy and soft – to an extent that goes beyond just random chaos-theory environmental differences.

    I don’t necessarily think having the memories of someone will give you the characteristics of the person that generated those memories.  A lot more goes into a persons character than just the things they know.  Otherwise reading a book of memoirs would make you that person.

    It’s the experiences, in the context, that go along with those memories that’s important.  Rimmer 1 actually lived through those events.  It was his decision each and every time a decision was to be made.  He lived and grew into the Rimmer that is existing at the time Rimmer 2 is booted up.

    Now Rimmer 2 may have been given a save file of “memories”, but that doesn’t make him anymore the person Rimmer 1 is than it makes him Napoleon for reading his war diaries.  It’s an information dump that is applied at a point in Rimmer’s life pre death.  i.e. Rimmer 2 it the sum of “back up pre-accident + x files from post accident existence”. He’s basically brought up to speed with what Rimmer 1 has done.  He’s still a complete bastard, just with the knowledge that, for example, Rimmer 1 found a garbage pod and thought it was an alien.  He probably looks down on him for that.  He probably see and knows what Rimmer 1 has done and resents how soft he has become hence why he starts pushing him so hard.

    #276039
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    That’s an interesting idea, Quinn, that having the memories patched in might create some difference compared to actually creating those memories yourself. My interpretation was that there wouldn’t be an inherent difference, because the memories are wholly digital. In later series when Rimmer’s light bee powers down, and then powers up again, do we feel like Rimmer’s personality has changed compared to what it would have been had he been on uninterrupted, purely because his new instance wasn’t the one to form those memories? To me the second Rimmer seems functionally the same concept.

    I think you could argue a dividing line if we say that Rimmer 2 didn’t get the full memories of Rimmer 1, but like an abridged, cobbled together version.

    Also, from a character point of view, it feels more important that Rimmer 2’s behaviour shows how Rimmer hates himself just in general, not that this specific incarnation of Rimmer hates the things done by a slightly different version of him.

    And that’s a good summary, Loathsome American. It’s aside the main discussion, but as you mentioned it, I personally subscribe to the theory that Holly was only able to sustain 2 holograms successfully because they were both the same person and this simplified the program. And that perhaps an attempt to boot Kochanski as Hologram 2 was made in between series, but it failed because it was just too complex to have 2 totally different people running as holograms at the same time.

    To take it even further, it’s possible even running 2 Rimmers would have become impossible eventually, as their memories and personalities diverged from each other too much.

    #276044

    Me2

    Yes, the much needed softening of Rimmer begins here. Regardless of anything else, it just makes the whole thing much more interesting to watch. 

    “Testing testing, one one one, me me me” is one of those little overlooked lines that always makes me laugh. 

    I wonder exactly what Chris is saying during the ‘spin on’ sections. 

    Lister’s snore after watching Rimmer die is pretty insensitive.

    Another rare example of a Remastered moment I prefer to the original: the ludicrous machine gun screaming alarm call. 

    Do we hear ‘To Ganymede & Titan’ again until M-Corp? 

    Why is July 27th on page 2 of the diary? 

    More great Holly development, he’s definitely one of the gang by this point. 

    I love the way Chris says “how are you?”, Rimmer utterly desperate to have a conversation but still unable to actually sound like he gives a shit about Lister. 

    “Dead git” is funnier than “filthy piece of distended rectum”. 

    “You great nancy” is such a genuinely horrible moment. 

    #276053

    <Blockquote> In later series when Rimmer’s light bee powers down, and then powers up again, do we feel like Rimmer’s personality has changed compared to what it would have been had he been on uninterrupted, purely because his new instance wasn’t the one to form those memories?  </blockquote> 

    There’s two different things going on here. 

    One would argue (and some philosophers do if we want to get wanky – which I do as I paid several thousands of pounds for my degree) that consciousness and the concept of self depends upon uninterrupted consciousness. But that gets tricky when you consider things like sleep. 


    In science fiction, you could argue that teleporting creates a different person. But as long as there is a continuity (different from uninterrupted) of consciousness, i.e. the transported person remembers who they were before transportation then they are the same person. (It’s how the 80 year old man knows he was the 8 year old boy, despite them arguably being quite different people)

    though that gets more complicated still when you have a Will and Tom Riker situation and the transporter beam splits in two. Which of these two are the original?

    Arguably both. But as soon as the split occurs, you have two distinct people with two distinct sets of thoughts, feelings, experiences. And even if they lived similar lives they would over time develop into observably different people. 

    So with Rimmer shutting down, and then being turned back on, this is no different to sleep. His consciousness can trace back through all his life events back to the moment he was switched on as a hologram, and then before that into pre death and actual living life. He is what we would consider the original and definite Rimmer. 

    Rimmer 2 is the Tom Riker in this scenario. There is a split that occurred (at the moment of death) and he immediately at that point becomes a different person to Rimmer 1. 


    Rimmer 1 lives for weeks/months? As a hologram and has all these unique first hand experiences that lead him to be the person he is in Me2

    Rimmer two is Rimmer 1 at point of death + a patch of memories that Rimmer 1 has (assuming we’re accepting he has those memories). Memories aren’t the same as experience. Think about what you ate for breakfast. You can remember what you ate, you can remember what it tasted of and what it felt like to eat and satisfy that hunger. None of that is comparable to actually eating. You can’t have the same experience second hand, even if it’s your own. Remembering a gig you went to will never emotionally feel the same as being there.

    So even though Rimmer 2 may have the memories of Rimmer 1, he is still a distinct and unique individual that as we see on screen behaves and acts very differently to Rimmer 1.

    #276062
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Obviously this is getting into some major philosophical weeds regarding the nature of identity and reality, but I come down on the other side of the experiences vs. memories debate. Memories are of course not the same as experiences, but once an experience is over, the memory of it is all that remains. If you can create a 100% perfect copy of both the body that had that experience and its memories – which would be the case if both the original and the copy are just computer simulations, as the Rimmers are – then there isn’t anything inherently different about the copy that would make him behave differently or feel differently. If you were able to magically duplicate the Mona Lisa down to the atoms, the fact that the copy was not the one painted by Da Vinci wouldn’t change the experience of looking at it (as long as you didn’t know).

    Suppose, that at the point that Rimmer 2 was booted up, he didn’t appear on the other side of the drive room, but was magically teleported to a parallel universe where at that exact same moment, the other universe’s Rimmer had switched off, and Rimmer 2 appeared in their Rimmer’s place (but the interruption was so brief that nobody noticed it, and both universes’ residents just thought their hologram boot attempt failed without explanation). Other than that, the 2 universes are exactly the same. In that scenario, would you expect that Rimmer A2 in Universe B would live his post-life any differently than Rimmer A1 in Universe A? My stance is that nothing would be different.

    So what really makes them different, as you allude to by comparing with the Rikers, is that they’re both there at the same time and live with each other, with one Rimmer knowing he’s a duplicate and one knowing he isn’t. So from that point on they have different perspectives and experiences, but not before. That’s the point of divergence in their personalities, not that only one of them was the one who actually did the things Rimmer did in Series 1.

    #276063
    Dave
    Participant

    But then that calls into question Rimmer-prime’s comment about being the one who nursed Lister through the early days.

    Because according to the theory that they are both identical copies up to the point at which nu-Rimmer is switched on, both of them would feel that they were the one who did that.

    #276065
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Well, if you go with the “they have the same pre-Me^2 memories” interpretation, then that line is Rimmer clutching at straws for any argument that will save him from deletion. He knows that him being the one who was ‘actually there’ doesn’t really give him an edge over Rimmer 2, because both remember being there all the same, but he hopes his status as “original” will be enough to make Lister choose to delete the duplicate. And it kind of worked, ultimately.

    The reason that Rimmer 2 doesn’t say “hey, I helped you in the early days too!” is because he knows he’s the duplicate and that therefore he technically didn’t. The memories themselves don’t distinguish them, but their awareness of those memories being copies does.

    #276067

    But then that calls into question Rimmer-prime’s comment about being the one who nursed Lister through the early days.

    Because according to the theory that they are both identical copies up to the point at which nu-Rimmer is switched on, both of them would feel that they were the one who did that.

    I’ve been arguing completely the opposite point.  They’re identical up to the point the original back up is made, pre-death.  After that they’re different people.  Rimmer 2 may have the memory of nursing Lister in the early days (although I still think there’s conjecture around whether he is given Rimmer 1’s memories) but it was actually Rimmer 1 that did it.

    I think Flap Jack gets it from his reply.  

    #276069
    Dave
    Participant

    I’ve been arguing completely the opposite point.

    Yeah I was responding to Flap Jack in my post.

    I feel the same as you though, it works better if nu-Rimmer is a copy of Rimmer just before death, rather than immediately before being rebooted.

    #276072
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    I think Flap Jack gets it from his reply.

    Yes, I definitely get it, I just don’t agree with it. ;)

    Seems like we’ve neatly divided ourselves into Loathsome American’s 3 Rimmer2 explanations here. (Although your interpretation of option 3 is perhaps more philosophical than they would have expected).

    #276075
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Me²

    Been looking forward to this all day. Traditionally my Second Favourite Episode of Red Dwarf (top would always have to be something that looks like series IV or V), I wonder how much of that is the warmth and grin I’m left with from that final post-disclosure scene. Loads of good shit though:

    – Duplicates have been done to death, but this is such a good take on it. Would you actually get along with yourself? Okay, what if you were Rimmer though?

    – A total Rimmer study, probably the point at which they realised how much they could endlessly mine that character for laughs and pity. The ‘Arnie’ clippings are hilariously pathetic, but other stuff like the failed ambition of the diary and blaming everyone but himself for his problems more relatable. Hopefully he learned something, even if some later episodes would disappointingly suggest he hadn’t.

    – In an era when many plots were slow to start, this one started at the end of the previous episode and runs throughout, save a couple of breaks for Norweb and rollerskating.

    – The Citizen Kane mystery hook is bonus engagement, though less interesting than the character study on repeat viewings.

    – I enjoy the occasional references to unseen extreme violence and the cartoonish mental images they conjure, e.g. tying Lister’s dreads to the bedpost and him straining to break free, attacking Lister with the fridge in Out of Time, etc.

    – ‘What a guy,’ like the wistful ‘Ace’ nickname in the next episode, preemptively making future alternative Rimmers more convincing.

    – I read the novel before I saw the early years, so always had the softening of Rimmer in mind, but I’d expect it to be more explicit in the episode if that was the case. So I go with the idea of him being duplicated as of the previous episode, but being painfully aware of that status and the original’s six months or whatever of hologram “long service,” so needing to go the extra mile to prove himself Best Rimmer, and not feeling he can turn to Lister for comfort like the original can (or that’s all part of it, either way).

    – Then again, Lister’s deterioration into an even more bored and slovenly state without Rimmer isn’t spelled out either, but obvious. Lister’s bunkmate kept him relatively tidy and sleeping regular hours, which was maybe as important as the “driving Rimmer nuts is what keeps me going” part.

    – This is maybe supposed to be really obvious, but I don’t think the gazpacho soup gaffe really counted against Rimmer with the officers at all. His service medals and how long it took for him to get the invite (presumably out of pity) spell out that it was within the year of the accident, so placing so much blame for his career failure on this incident makes him, as Lister says, a total lunatic.

    – It took seven seconds from Lister’s popcorn request to the Skutter appearing on screen (and those things are slow). That’s implausible even if the popcorn was ready and on the table.

    – Lister cheering at Rimmer’s death is funny. It’s old news, maybe morbid curiosity he’d dwelled on occasionally, and there’s nothing he can do about it now. His bored snore afterwards is a bit weird though!

    – Cat’s scenes are just things for him to do, but at a stretch, Cat could be another mirror for Lister to consider, if he ended up similarly deranged without someone keeping him in check.

    #276077
    Warbodog
    Participant

    As much as I take the piss out of Back to Earth claiming Blade Runner was the main inspiration for Red Dwarf, this discussion about memories making the individual is one point where I think they were inspired, especially in Thanks for the Memory.

    #276078

    oh bugger I missed Flap Jack’s response.

    to briefly respond I guess it depends on what forms a memory.  Is it just a note of the event or is there an emotional component attached to it?

    But I still think regardless the experience informs character, and you can’t take a blank slate, dump all the experience gained over weeks/months/years onto it at once and assume you get the same result. 

    As you say, as soon as he is booted up, he is a different person just by knowing he is the copy.  

    IF (big if) you could replicate something right down to the atoms and have exact copies then forensically you’d have an indistinguishable duplicate.

    However, judiciously you wouldn’t. There is still historically, and presumably on record, a time the duplicate came into existence. It maybe scientifically exactly the same, save for the fact it didn’t exist at the same time as the original did. 

    This is actually the answer to the Ship of Theasus no-one ever talks about because … well it’s never discussed outside of philosophy text books.

    The ship in both forms is legally the same ship, before and after restoration.  The Ship is more of a concept.  It has a log of its missions, a crew that have sailed on it etc.  For legally its the same ship.  However forensically, if for example you wanted to investigate a murder, you’d need the original parts.  It was the original parts that did the actual sailing the logs say happened, and the original parts on which a murder took place.

    So EVEN IF Rimmer 2 is absolutely identical at the moment he is switched on, you could perhaps insist on some level he is the same person as Rimmer 1.  But as Rimmer 1 points out, it was HIM that was there doing all the stuff.  Forensically he is the original and they both know it.  Same with a duplicate painting of the Mona Lisa.  Any identical copy wouldn’t hold the same value as the original, it would at best hold the value of a good forgery.

    And that isn’t at all getting into the weeds as to what consciousness actually is. Which is doubly difficult because Rimmer’s consciousness on some level is a computer simulation.  Now it could be that it is such that the simulation is actually running a version of that conciseness at the same level our brains would, and it isn’t a simulation but more a generation.  Given his self awareness I think you’d have to at least agree on some level Rimmer (and holograms in general in Red Dwarf) are beyond Holodeck physics and are more akin to The Doctor in Voyager)

    Whatever it is, the computer is running two distinct versions of that consciousness. which would suggest there is something physical about it to allow it to be copied, but we’d still (if we have time) have to explore whether consciousness is linked to the body intrinsically and how it could be copied down to the identical atoms for want of a better way of phrasing it.

    In Red Dwarf there’s clearly duality, physical and metaphysical being.  The mind can be separated from the body.  Which just brings us back around to any copy of consciousness is just that, a copy, and once created and run creates a new and distinct consciousness no matter how much you plug and patch it with updates.

    (One could argue Rimmer 1 isn’t even the original – which he does himself, but for simplicity lets just say that because he holds the original consciousness continuity that he is)

    #276084
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    OK, we may be closer to agreeing on this than I thought, QD. Because your position as best I understand it is that no matter how perfect a copy of Rimmer is, on some level the universe knows the copy and the original are not the same being.

    That’s the philosophical perspective on it, and broadly I agree, but that kind of goes beyond the scope of what I was talking about. All I was really considering was the practical outcomes: does the fact that Rimmer2 is a duplicate inherently make him different to Rimmer1, such that it’s the direct cause of his different attitude? My feeling is no, it doesn’t. It’s the knowledge that he’s a copy (which he gains straight after being booted, he doesn’t know it just based on his memories) which shapes how he’s treated and how he thinks of himself, which leads to his different attitude.

    I’m actually kind of unsure whether we agree on this or not – !

    But I still think regardless the experience informs character, and you can’t take a blank slate, dump all the experience gained over weeks/months/years onto it at once and assume you get the same result.

    As you say, as soon as he is booted up, he is a different person just by knowing he is the copy.

    In the 2nd paragraph we agree, it’s the Rimmers’ post-Confidence & Paranoia knowledge and experiences which make the Rimmers differ.

    But in the 1st paragraph we disagree. You feel that Rimmer2 not having personally collected his memories makes them qualitatively different for him than they are for Rimmer1, while I see those memories as qualitatively identical (excepting of course the external knowledge we and the Rimmers associate with them).

    to briefly respond I guess it depends on what forms a memory. Is it just a note of the event or is there an emotional component attached to it?

    Just on this point, memories absolutely do have that emotional component to them, but for computer simulations of people such as Rimmer, those emotional components are all 1s and 0s in the end, same as anything else.

    Though for what it’s worth, I don’t think this only applies to computer programs. If you could magically duplicate a living human down to the last cell, the same principle would apply. All those memories and emotions are in the brain, and if it’s a perfect copy of the brain, the memories and emotions would start out the same. Unless the duplicate learns they’re a duplicate, they’d behave exactly as the original would.

    #276085

    <blockquote>

    This is maybe supposed to be really obvious, but I don’t think the gazpacho soup gaffe really counted against Rimmer with the officers at all. His service medals and how long it took for him to get the invite (presumably out of pity) spell out that it was within the year of the accident, so placing so much blame for his career failure on this incident makes him, as Lister says, a total lunatic.

    </blockquote>

    Yeah, it’s just another opportunity for Rimmer to blame his failings on everyone else: even here, when he’s the one who made a mistake, it’s a mistake he made because he should have been told first. Clearly they all had a good snigger and probably thought “thank God we weren’t going to invite him again!” afterwards. As ever, the fleshing out of the story in the book, with his missing date, makes it much more tragic.

    #276086

    You know what, I’m not even going to try and edit it. Why the fuck can’t I get the blockquote tag working anymore?

    #276090
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    <blockquote>You know what, I’m not even going to try and edit it. Why the fuck can’t I get the blockquote tag working anymore?</blockquote>

    That is weird…

    Just to check, are you typing the tags into code view, or visual view?

    #276092
    Formica
    Participant

    Perhaps the new Rimmer still has a sort of ghostly presence in the room when the disk is inserted but not initialized. His hologram is prepared to appear at any moment, and to save time the personality was pre-booted so that flipping the switch only has to quickly turn on the picture and sound.

    #276093
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Don’t forget to pre-order your Rimmer, or you’ll be downloading him all morning on release day like a chump. All of your cooler friends will have him on Thanks For The Memory while you’re still on Balance of Power.

    #276094
    Formica
    Participant

    It would appear that I’ve fucked the timeline on this. That said, the concept would still work if the hologram disk partially pre-boots upon removal from a box, or if Lister had had to manually activate a pre-boot sequence, and plugging it in & flipping the switch is just the final step that hooks it up to the Projection Suite.

    #276097
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    “Fucked” is perhaps being a bit harsh on yourself, but admittedly that would be an incredibly impressive amount of processing for ghost/preloaded Rimmer 2 to do in just a few seconds, so I think your additional theories do help.

    #276099
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Me:

    Hopefully he learned something, even if some later episodes would disappointingly suggest he hadn’t.

    And here I am, up before 3am to give myself more hours in the day that I’ll fail to use productively like a total Rimmer. How are you rimmering today?

    #276134

    <blockquote>Just to check, are you typing the tags into code view, or visual view?</blockquote>

    Visual. I just tried code twice and the posts didn’t even turn up.

    #276138
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Try using the reply button on the post you want to quote. If you type HTML into the visual view then it won’t get interpreted as HTML.

    #276139
    Loathsome American
    Participant

    On the topic of Gazpacho Soup Day, I think that maybe it did hurt his standing, but not in the way he thinks. Knowing Rimmer, he probably didn’t discreetly inform the server that his dish was cold and request it be sent back hot; he probably made a loud display of calling the server out on the carpet for their supposed incompetence to seem like a big shot in front of the officers. Rimmer assumes they’re mocking him purely for his ignorance of the dish, when they might have been more focused on his behavior. 

    #276141
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Me^2 – Ah, the best episode of Series 1. (Sorry, Future Echoes, you’re great and all, but it’s not you.) The character work for Rimmer here is great, as is the general evolution of his relationship with Lister. It really makes sense that this was written last, because it showcases how Rob and Doug have improved and really nailed how to do this show. Plus it’s really well done as a bookend too, with Rimmer’s death being a major point, and Lister’s humming, and ocean/military grey being a sort of sequel to the 14B soup nozzle gag in The End (and Rimmer gets confused about which one is which in both). It’s just generally a rewarding watch, the gazpacho soup confession scene is superbly played, and the split screen work is great throughout the episode. It’s easy to forget there weren’t actually 2 Chris Barries on set.

    – “He knows everything you know and you know everything he knows” : it’s not definitive, but this is more of a hint that both Rimmers have Series 1 memories.

    – Rimmer’s death video kind of fills the gap left by the cut Rimmer funeral scene from The End, another bookend note.

    – When Lister meets Rimmer in the corridor doing his painting, he has no way of telling which Rimmer he’s speaking to (although it’s later confirmed it was Rimmer1). But he also doesn’t say anything that would only apply to a specific Rimmer.

    – Impressive that Holly was able to get cinematic shots from multiple angles for Rimmer’s death video. I wonder if in-universe some of that was achieved with deepfake technology.

    – I enjoy the fact that Rimmer’s death video is literally a VHS, with analogue fast forwarding. I hope Lister remembered to rewind it when he was done!

    – Interesting how neither Rimmer or Lister consider moving out on their own before this. Whether or not they admit it, they know they prefer each other’s company. (To no company at all, so not that much of a compliment, but still.)

    – Is it weird that Rimmer marks November 25th as “Gazpacho Soup Day” in his diary, but only in retrospect, and didn’t have, like, “Dinner at Captain’s Table” there before? Seems weird.

    – Continuity Watch: Gazpacho Soup Day was roughly 6 months before the radiation leak. Was the exact date of the radiation leak ever explicitly confirmed in the show? Or how long Lister was in stasis for before the accident occurred?

    – Thinking about it, if Rimmer was given a responsibility as big as fixing the drive plate just months after his gazpacho faux pas, it’s possible that not only did the officers not really care about his soup mistake, but that he actually made a really good impression! Not enough to be fast tracked to officer or anything, but enough to get on their radar… maybe?

    – I remember reading that there was a continuity mistake in the cinema scene, and that Lister ended up wiping the wrong Rimmer, but I couldn’t spot it. Unless I blinked and missed it, we don’t see either Rimmer get up from their seats, and Rimmer1 verifies he’s the original after they’re both stood up.

    – It was a funny point that I hadn’t twigged before, how quickly that Skutter delivered Lister’s popcorn (ta Warbodog). My feeling is that skutters are super capable but only off-screen. They’re the only characters who know they’re in a TV show, and they get camera shy.

    – The Norweb scene is great. It’s a precursor to Queeg, not just in the sense that it’s a Holly prank, but that the scenario he invents could have legitimately been the plot of an episode. I’m sure I was fooled when first watching.

    – I now can’t watch that final scene without thinking of the “Series XI Cat” meme where the Cat interrupts every sentence to shit talk Rimmer.

    – I can’t believe I never noticed before that the Holly “there’s an emergency going on” voiceover in Rimmer’s death video is just a straight copy-paste of Confidence & Paranoia. Including Holly beckoning Rimmer to White Corridor 159, for no reason in this context. Episode fucking ruined.

    #276142
    Dave
    Participant

    It’s easy to forget there weren’t actually 2 Chris Barries on set.

    This is a great way of summing up what’s so great about the episode. You buy into it 100%.

    #276143
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    – I remember reading that there was a continuity mistake in the cinema scene, and that Lister ended up wiping the wrong Rimmer, but I couldn’t spot it. Unless I blinked and missed it, we don’t see either Rimmer get up from their seats, and Rimmer1 verifies he’s the original after they’re both stood up.

    OK, looking over it again, I did blink and miss. You can see the behind-Rimmer (1) start to get up, implying he was the one doing shadow puppets, which in turn implies he was the one who came from the right of the screen. Duh. My bad.

    But from-the-left Rimmer does still positively identify himself as the original, and the other Rimmer doesn’t dispute it, so original Rimmer definitely doesn’t get wiped.

    Either they moved around each other off-screen, or it was actually Rimmer2 who came into the cinema first (and therefore it was also Rimmer 2 who was painting the corridor military grey).

    #276152

    – Is it weird that Rimmer marks November 25th as “Gazpacho Soup Day” in his diary, but only in retrospect, and didn’t have, like, “Dinner at Captain’s Table” there before? Seems weird.”

    “Dinner at Captain’s Table” would be noted in a previous (last years) diary.

    Plus it’s really well done as a bookend too, with Rimmer’s death being a major point, and Lister’s humming, and ocean/military grey being a sort of sequel to the 14B soup nozzle gag in The End (and Rimmer gets confused about which one is which in both)

    Probably helps they would have been thinking about The End re-writes and re-shoots around this time.

    – “He knows everything you know and you know everything he knows” : it’s not definitive, but this is more of a hint that both Rimmers have Series 1 memories.

    It’s probably Rob and Doug’s intention that Rimmer 2 has all of Rimmer’s 1 memories.  But even if that wasn’t the case, Lister not really considering the ins and outs of what’s happened would probably just assume Rimmer 2 had all the same memories, even if he didn’t

    #276154
    Dave
    Participant

    OK, looking over it again, I did blink and miss. You can see the behind-Rimmer (1) start to get up, implying he was the one doing shadow puppets

    I mean, the real question is how a hologram made of light can cause a shadow.

    #276156

    Three ways

    1. the projections of black light to simulate a shadow. Though you’d have to accept the concept of black light and even in a sci-fi setting that just isn’t going to win is it?

    2. like noise cancelling headphones, the projection of completely the opposite visual light wave to cancel out what is behind it, to create a blank space.

    3. Holly has control of the projector and can insert shadow into the image being projected live as it is … well projected.

    #276157
    Warbodog
    Participant

    – Is it weird that Rimmer marks November 25th as “Gazpacho Soup Day” in his diary, but only in retrospect, and didn’t have, like, “Dinner at Captain’s Table” there before? Seems weird.

    Also, since Gazpacho Soup Day happened when Rimmer and Lister were already bunkmates, he obviously would have made a huge deal about it ahead of the event too. But “do you remember when I was invited to dine with the officers?” “Oh yeah, and you came back all quiet and moody for days” is just less efficient dialogue. Maybe that’s what some of Craig Charles’ face acting in the background was meant to convey (it’s not great!)

    – Continuity Watch: Gazpacho Soup Day was roughly 6 months before the radiation leak. Was the exact date of the radiation leak ever explicitly confirmed in the show? Or how long Lister was in stasis for before the accident occurred?

    I know we get another specific date that directly contradicts it, I think in Stasis Leak, so wait a couple of weeks.

    #276159
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    “Dinner at Captain’s Table” would be noted in a previous (last years) diary.

    Hmm… OK, so that flips my perspective of the event on its head, if it wasn’t 6 months before the accident, and was actually before Lister went into stasis, and possibly before he even joined Red Dwarf.

    The “14 years” part means it can only have been the previous year though, so that makes it extra weird that he would choose to begin a diary and open it with a passage about chronicling his upcoming career triumphs, when from his perspective his career was permanently screwed as of 1 month prior.

    #276160
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Also, since Gazpacho Soup Day happened when Rimmer and Lister were already bunkmates, he obviously would have made a huge deal about it ahead of the event too. But “do you remember when I was invited to dine with the officers?” “Oh yeah, and you came back all quiet and moody for days” is just less efficient dialogue. Maybe that’s what some of Craig Charles’ face acting in the background was meant to convey (it’s not great!)

    Yeah, this is why I think Gazpacho Soup Day (the original, as Quinn points out the diary entry might well be the anniversary) must have happened either after Lister went into stasis, or before Lister joined the JMC.

    Good chance it’s contradicted elsewhere, but at this stage – if the incident occurred 6 months before the crew died, it’s plausible Lister was in stasis for longer than 6 months before the accident; and if the incident occurred 18 months before the crew died, then as long as Lister was in stasis for less than 10 months before the accident, Rimmer’s dinner invite would not have overlapped with his time with Lister.

    #276161
    Warbodog
    Participant

    I’ve never dwelled enough on the “six weeks before the crew got wiped out” part. Lister probably was in stasis on Gazpacho Soup Day (GSD), wasn’t he? (Unless the timeline’s contradicted by Stasis Leak, but whatever).

    Rimmer’s last diary before his death would have been for the calendar year after GSD in late November, so it’s marking the anniversary.

    Six weeks later means he died in early January, so it’s not surprising he hadn’t managed to write down many accomplishments, really. Still a good joke though.

    #276168
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Oh, OK, so I messed up. I thought he said “six months before” not “six weeks”.

    But surely whatever is marked as “Gazpacho Soup Day” in the diary (whether it’s the original incident or the anniversary) did occur 6 weeks before the radiation leak. Because otherwise Lister would have said “that’s 10 months after the accident” – and also he wouldn’t have bothered reading that part because he knew Rimmer wasn’t around then.

    Also because the gag is that Rimmer neglected to write entries after bigging it up, not that he couldn’t write them because he was dead.

    #276173
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    OK, so I randomly got curious about whether Craig was actually meant to say “Julius Caesar’s memoirs” not “Julius Caesar’s memories” in the diary reading scene, so I checked Son of Soup.

    Unfortunately that line doesn’t appear in the script, but the script did reveal some Gazpacho Soup Day clues:

    1 – Gazpacho Soup Day was originally written as March 15th (!) OK, that’s not really a clue to anything but it is interesting.

    2 – In a cut scene, Lister asks Holly for the security footage of the day marked as “Gazpacho day” in Rimmer’s diary so he could follow him around, and Holly reveals that all of the footage was deleted by Rimmer. So this means that the diary entry was intended to be the day of the event itself, not an anniversary.

    3 – Its exact proximity to the radiation leak isn’t noted in SoS, but Lister says it was the same year as the accident. So in either script or final, it’s only possible for GS Day to be when Rimmer and Lister are bunk mates or when Lister is in stasis. (Though I think given Lister had no knowledge of a dinner that Rimmer would surely have bragged about, the intention was the latter.)

    Boy, this is a lot of work just to justify my “it’s a bit weird to mark the diary as Gazpacho Soup Day in retrospect” comment as valid.

    #276174
    Jenuall
    Participant

    I’ve enjoyed reading the various takes on Rimmer 1 and Rimmer 2, memories, emotional growth, duplicates etc. Lovely stuff! 
    I’ve always subscribed to the “Rimmer 1 genuinely does have development/ lived memories that make him a unique and, to a degree, softer entity than Rimmer 2 who is a version who represents the same state that he first appears to us in post-accident The End”. But it has always been something open for debate and interpretation. 

    I think a case could also be made that ultimately this isn’t a real situation with living organisms but  a computer simulation being played out in real time with complex variables – the outcome is not necessarily set in stone and re-running the simulation with the same input may result in a different outcome, maybe it would be Rimmer 2 who became more subservient and under the cosh, maybe they both actually teamed up and terrorised Lister, maybe Ringo was actually a really good drummer.

    Conversely I think the fact that what we’re dealing with is a simulation rather “real individuals” means that a case could be made that lived experience vs implanted memories theoretically takes on less of a distinction, possibly none at all. Look at the world of Tool Assisted Speedrunning – the act of feeding pre-programmed inputs into an emulator executing a base game/ROM image to get a consistent, reproducible output every time. Rimmer 1 who has played out those moments in real time, versus Rimmer 2 who has had them loaded in programmatically would be genuinely identical in this analogy.

    #276178

    I think a case could also be made that ultimately this isn’t a real situation with living organisms but  a computer simulation being played out in real time with complex variables – the outcome is not necessarily set in stone and re-running the simulation with the same input may result in a different outcome,

    I’d still maintain, just from everything we see on screen, that whilst holograms are described as computer simulations, they are their own thinking, self aware conscious entities.

    The fact that they’re run off of back ups of a living persons consciousness (which is so well preserved digitally it can be transferred into another human – Bodyswap) suggests they are thinking intelligences.

    That intelligence maybe housed on computer chips, but it just means they have developed the technology to make artificial brains to house and run that consciousness. 

    Rimmer, and every other hologram we meet exists in a state and behaves in a way far beyond any simulation.  Hell by the time of series 3 they are fairly independent of the computer that supposedly runs them.  And once we get to things like Holoship, Stoke Me a Clipper, Trojan etc, we have holograms bouncing around time and space completely of their own free will.

    What’s more everyone around them treats them as though they have personhood without thought probably because they meet the (proposed) criteria for personhood 

    1. Consciousness

    2. Reasoning

    3. Self-motivation

    4. Communication

    5. Self-awareness

    In fact I’d posit that Rimmer’s claim “I’m not really me, I’m a computer simulation of me” stems from the bigotry holograms would have first faced, particularly when fighting for their rights.  That kind of xenophobia towards holograms from a section of society we never see (presumably because everyone that travels and works in space is a bit more open minded etc) is embedded in Rimmer on some unconscious level.

    The only other time its ever mentioned is in TPL, and that comes from Cat deliberately trying to push Rimmer’s buttons.  

    #276185
    Stilianides
    Participant

    Me2 – A classic episode and one of the highlights of the first series.

    The Rimmer/Lister scenes are great and it’s hard to imagine how having more double Rimmer scenes, as it was originally intended, would have been an improvement.

    Rimmer is indeed more sympathetic and you also get another glimpse into the fact that Lister could be a nightmare to live with, too. Partly due to things like putting Rimmer’s name down for experimental piles surgery and partly due to his general slobbiness that even he finds unacceptable (the latter showing slight hints of the rejected Bodysnatcher script).

    The Norweb gag works very well, despite Rob and Doug having carried it around for years, and I think it’s important that the name of the company is not the punchline. By that I mean that I can understand people complaining that mentioning Norweb is an outdated reference, but the joke would still work even if a fictitious company’s name had been used. Rather different to something like the QPR joke from Series VIII which is entirely based on knowledge of football in the late 20th century (and it’s also an inifinitely weaker joke, obviously).

    Chris and Ed Bye do a supreme job with the double Rimmer scenes and their excellence is only highlighted by Craig’s obvious ineptitude with his ‘leaning boots’ moment. :)

    #276186

    Try using the reply button on the post you want to quote. If you type HTML into the visual view then it won’t get interpreted as HTML.

    Righto, thanks! I used to just type in the code so just carried on doing that. Also when I click do a post in Code View it never actually posts.

    I mean, the real question is how a hologram made of light can cause a shadow.

    Well, he’s made to appear solid / opaque, meaning ambient light doesn’t travel through him, so he surely must cast a shadow?

    #276188
    RunawayTrain
    Participant

    Also when I click do a post in Code View it never actually posts.

    Way off topic but I start my Smegle posts in code view to get rid of the awful spacing, then click to visual view to add my comment and post.  Maybe try that after composing in code view, and see if it posts.

    #276204
    clem
    Participant

    Waiting for God is better than I’d remembered. Okay, the satire is a little crude but it provides some good gags and character moments. Some cracking dialogue again including “Massive, *massive* whips” and Rimmer calling Lister a tyke. 

    The oft-mentioned vastness of the ship in this section is also incredibly impressive. I love anything that makes Red Dwarf feel like a huge place, and this is one of the most successful.

    I love how that impression of scale is achieved through a combination of sets, dialogue, sound design, shooting on the gantry, Lister’s bike.

    “Holly? Can you still hear me?”

    … 

    #276213
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Way off topic but I start my Smegle posts in code view to get rid of the awful spacing, then click to visual view to add my comment and post.  Maybe try that after composing in code view, and see if it posts.

    Yeah, I’ve got some really annoying things to sort out with this editor. I have a list.

    #276253
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    In the Bodysnatcher Collection commentary for Me^2, Doug says that the gazpacho soup incident wasn’t something that happened to them, they just made it up, but in the Quarantine commentary, Rob recounts how it was something that happened to them.

    Poor 2007 Doug, he was still too embarrassed to admit it, just like Rimmer.

    #276254

    What Doug doesn’t know is that Rob had other friends.

    #276258
    Stilianides
    Participant

    In the Bodysnatcher Collection commentary for Me^2, Doug says that the gazpacho soup incident wasn’t something that happened to them, they just made it up, but in the Quarantine commentary, Rob recounts how it was something that happened to them.
    Poor 2007 Doug, he was still too embarrassed to admit it, just like Rimmer.

    Doesn’t Doug say in that commentary that Rob ordered Gazpacho soup but didn’t send it back?

    That’s what Rob himself says in interviews from the mid-90s.

    #276262
    Rudolph
    Participant

    I’m always a bit annoyed how the window in Mr and Mr Rimmer’s quarters couldn’t possibly work, as it backs onto the corridor Lister walks down to get to it.

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