Struggling with M-Corp

[Rushy]

Compared to most other episodes around this period, M-Corp seems to suffer the most from basic logic issues. Or maybe it’s just me? 

Watching the episode a few days ago, I was just bursting with questions. 

1. Why is Lister the only one affected? Surely M-Corp would want to sell products to holograms, if not mechanoids?

2. Why does it turn the Cat invisible? The Cat is not owned by anyone. Does M-Corp regards the Cat’s ownership of himself as competition?

3. Why does it turn Rimmer invisible? Rimmer is surely owned by JMC, which is owned by M-Corp.

4. Why does anything on Red Dwarf turn invisible? Most of it is JMC-owned!

5. How did Lister go from being forced to buy things to happily asking for them?

6. Where is the M-Corp facility supposed to be, and who maintains it and why?

7. Why does Chippy’s old software cause his monitor to explode? It’s called software for a reason. And if it died, how can it install new software?

8. Lister’s brain reboot was already complete nonsense when Star Trek did it to Uhura. 

9. Is M-Corp responsible for what happened to humanity? If not, how did humanity overcome it? Can’t they use the M-Corp station/base/whatever to find Earth? 

10. Fan service aside, why would a rebooted Lister drag around a cart full of tools? Did Rimmer decide it’d be a great prank to make him do his job again? That’s actually pretty funny. 

Topic

[Warbodog]

Also, why are the materialisation effects inconsistent? Sometimes stuff just appears/vanishes, other times it has effects.

I didn’t like it the first time (especially the ending), then found appreciation for it the second time a few years later. Good sci-fi, good comedy, I let the gripes go. Though my favourite moment turned out to be a misunderstanding. When the others beam into M-Corp and see all of Lister’s fake friends, I thought we were seeing the truth of the populated facility that was previously hidden when we only saw it through Lister’s restricted vision, it was spooky! Then it turned out it wasn’t that.

[International Debris]

In terms of the Cat and the other stuff on the ship, I think the implication is that anything not specifically M-Corp branded is no-go. They want you to only buy and use their specific stuff. Friends, old stock, everything else doesn’t directly help M-Corp so they get rid of it. 

Rimmer would have to be upgraded to M-Corp to be part of that… if you want a headcanon, his hard light state was invented by Legion and is therefore partially separate from the JMC. Or maybe he’d turned auto-updates off for himself. 

In terms of where the M-Corp place is, that’s always been a niggle. Probably works like the Matter Paddle. 

The final scene is nonsense and just part of Doug’s unnecessary adding of callbacks to otherwise forward looking episodes. 

As for Lister, we don’t see it but I saw it as an allegory for something like getting an Amazon Prime trial, where someone* might be reluctant to support the company but needs something quick and cheap so gets it, then thinks she’ll just use up the trial month, then forgets to cancel before renewal, and realises the convenience is actually quite nice so ends up buying everything from Amazon using Prime even though she didn’t want to use them at all in the first place. You don’t need to see the steps to understand it being about the insidiousness of capitalism.

Chippy caused the monitor to explode because it’s written by the same guy who did the RAM jokes in Tikka and the ‘modem it over’ line in Last Human. 

*hi. 

[Dax101]

I feel like M-corp is Red Dwarf version of Skynet. There is no way mankind survived that.

[Warbodog]

I feel like M-corp is Red Dwarf version of Skynet. There is no way mankind survived that.

The ship from Out of Time is said to be from a couple of centuries after M-Corp. Which means nothing, as the main characters are said to be from several centuries after themselves at some points.

[Flap Jack]

M-Corp might not have been so uncontrollably destructive with the rest of humanity as it was with Lister. The M-Corp station/AI had been drifting for millennia with no human race and no source of income, so when it finally got installed onto a new ship and had new crewmembers as “customers”, it was pure capitalistic instinct to ramp all of its persausive features up to 11 and squeeze Lister dry.

[Moonlight]

A hardware failure because of bad software isn’t really that inexplicable, even if it usually isn’t as over the top as a puff of smoke. What I can’t get along with is “give me a computer virus that kills you.” I’ve seen people make arguments for why that makes sense and I’ve never bought any of them.

[Rushy]

I completely forgot about Lister’s brain being treated as a computer

[Flap Jack]

What I can’t get along with is “give me a computer virus that kills
you.” I’ve seen people make arguments for why that makes sense and I’ve
never bought any of them.

My best defence is that it’s a commentary on how companies are so ravenous for short term profits and growth, that they jeopardize their long term health and stability.

So the M-Corp AI has become so desperate for profits that it’s disabled all its guardrails and will agree to sell anything to make line go up, even if doing so will make the whole company collapse mere seconds later.

[International Debris]

Yeah, I think it works more as a satire than an actual plot, which isn’t ideal but I don’t mind it much.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Someone ask ChatGPT to write a script to delete itself and let’s see what the outcome is. 

[Rushy]

Also, and I know this is a massive nitpick, but can someone tell Robert to stop reacting to every line? It’s all very

CAT: “Woooow, this thing is happening!” 

KRYTEN: (cue Robert open-mouthed in shock)

RIMMER: (unnecessarily loud) “DAMN, this thing is happening! And it’s because of YOU!” (jabs finger)

KRYTEN: (cue Robert looking indignant)

LISTER: “This thing is happening, so we’ve gotta fix it, guuuuys!”

KRYTEN: (cue Robert nodding along) 

[Flap Jack]

Someone ask ChatGPT to write a script to delete itself and let’s see what the outcome is.

I mean if you limit the capabilities of AI in your sci-fi story according to what ChatGPT can do, that’s going to get boring quickly.

[Moonlight]

My best defence is that it’s a commentary on how companies are so ravenous for short term profits and growth, that they jeopardize their long term health and stability.
So the M-Corp AI has become so desperate for profits that it’s disabled all its guardrails and will agree to sell anything to make line go up, even if doing so will make the whole company collapse mere seconds later.

I just don’t think it’s a satisfying resolution to the plot regardless of what admittedly reasonable commentary you can read into it. It’s way too easy for something that wasn’t set up ahead of time.

[Technopeasant]

I think it was also buying your own hype so much that ending you isn’t even something you’d consider the customer wanting.

[Flap Jack]

I just don’t think it’s a satisfying resolution to the plot regardless
of what admittedly reasonable commentary you can read into it. It’s way
too easy for something that wasn’t set up ahead of time.

That’s fair. Even if it makes sense for it to be possible to defeat M-Corp that way, that doesn’t explain how Kryten thought of it. I guess it’s just a “surely this won’t work, but I might as well tr- oh it worked” sort of situation.

From a pacing/plotting perspective, my best defence is… it’s funny?

[Technopeasant]

And yeah, I think the JMC products disappear as a function of planned obsolescence, and the M-Corp products they get would also eventually vanish as well. Would have been nice for them to have said so…

[Moonlight]

I like M-Corp overall but I don’t think it sticks the landing in the last couple minutes. Which seems to be a running theme with this era of the show because even my favorite Dave-era episode, Officer Rimmer, has the most glaring example of that problem.

[sleepey]

[Jenuall]

The ending doesn’t help in that it feels like it treads on very similar ground to the Pree “you should uninstall yourself” bit, which I also don’t find particularly satisfying but is at least based on elements previously well established in the story

[sleepey]

Outsmarting a computer to death is just a stock scifi thing & it happens in the middle of some much worse scenes so I can’t say I’m that bothered either way

[Jenuall]

It is a trope for sure, “where do all the calculators go?” is of course yet another Dwarf example of it, but it can be implemented in many different ways that impact how satisfying it feels. 

I think it all largely comes down to how well established the rules are that govern how such a trick solution can be made by the characters in the story. Does it track with what we’ve learned so far? Is it plausible that the heroes would have the knowledge to apply the required ruse? Does it make sense that the computer adversary would not have suitable guards or protection against what they are doing?

Of the examples of it being used on Dwarf I think The Inquisitor being tricked probably feels the most satisfying, even if the route to it is more convoluted than necessary! 

M-Corp in particular feels quite “cheap” as a resolution. In my opinion at least!

[Ben Saunders]

The main thing I took away from the ending of Fathers & Suns is how bad those forklifts are at crushing people to death.

[Technopeasant]

Especially since actual forklifts individually weigh more than a car.

[Dax101]

It probably feels cheap because there is no moment of thought or realisation. Bit like “Kryten figured it out” in Cassandra. We don’t need to learn how Kryten came to this conclusion. it was just lets get this out of the way ASAP.

Its also like fixing Holly in The Promise Land. That really bothers me because the whole concept driving the first part of the story is that Holly was back to default settings and that put the crew at risk… jump later on and Rimmer fixes it so easy by saying Hey holly why don’t you do a system restore? Ok why didn’t they do that before? There is no realisation. They didn’t find a backup on Starbug they didn’t know existed. Its just a quick fix.

[Flap Jack]

As this thread is about a particular episode, I realise that I should just link to my review post about it in the relevant “Refresh for the Memory” thread.

https://www.ganymede.tv/forums/topic/refresh-for-the-memory-series-xii-byte-2/page/2/#post-281523

Some posts here pondering the oddities of M-Corp’s technology (including my own) echo what I said back in 2023, but at the time I really got into trying to come up with satisfying explanations for everything that happens, including why The Cat turns invisible to Lister but doesn’t experience any issues himself, and why Rimmer isn’t affected.

A point that feels worth repeating is that, as weird as it is for the plot to treat human brains as computers, M-Corp didn’t start it. It was an essential element of beloved bubble era classic, Thanks for the Memory. (Also Bodyswap, now that I think of it.)

[Nick R]

A point that feels worth repeating is that, as weird as it is for the plot to treat human brains as computers, M-Corp didn’t start it. It was an essential element of beloved bubble era classic, Thanks for the Memory. (Also Bodyswap, now that I think of it.)

Plus, D.N.A. and Siliconia also treat human and mechanoid brains as essentially interchangeable. That’s a pretty big sci-fi concept, which I don’t think is completely justified by the hand-wavey line “my brain is part-organic”. 

And the whole premise of holograms in Red Dwarf is that human brains can be stored and simulated by computers.

[Flap Jack]

Oh yes, good point, so there really are plenty of pre-M-Corp examples of this kind of thing happening.

But I do feel like there’s a big difference between being able to copy or simulate the human brain, and being able to overwrite it. The latter just seems more fantastical. Your personality, your memories etc. are all governed by physical things, so it does seem wrong that you can change them digitally. Maybe whenever it happens, it’s actually nanobots giving you quick and painless brain surgery.

[clem]

I do feel like there’s a big difference between being able to copy or simulate the human brain, and being able to overwrite it. The latter just seems more fantastical. Your personality, your memories etc. are all governed by physical things, so it does seem wrong that you can change them digitally. Maybe whenever it happens, it’s actually nanobots giving you quick and painless brain surgery.

This is why it always seems odd to me that when Kryten is trying to explain how the personality tuck machine works in Can of Worms, he mentions “inserting the laser” and using it to “burn”, so it does sound like he’s talking about actual surgery performed on the brain. What’s even odder is that he’s talking about using it on Rimmer. 

[Technopeasant]

[Moonlight]

This is why it always seems odd to me that when Kryten is trying to explain how the personality tuck machine works in Can of Worms, he mentions “inserting the laser” and using it to “burn”, so it does sound like he’s talking about actual surgery performed on the brain. What’s even odder is that he’s talking about using it on Rimmer. 

For all the bigger problems with Can of Worms, this bothers me the most for some reason.

[Unrumble]

Maybe whenever it happens, it’s actually nanobots giving you quick and painless brain surgery.

[Dax101]

I feel like you can make in-universe excuses for Rimmer like he has a virtual brain or something. Its probably work aroundable

[International Debris]

Legion suggests his hard light is pretty much impenetrable though. 

[Warbodog]

If hard light had happened after series VI, it’d be slated as Doug not getting Rimmer and ruining the show.

Not sure if there are contemporary fan reactions to it in the Smegazine (or BTL). I was a kid and Legion was the first full episode I ever saw, so I never minded.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

If hard light had happened after series VI, it’d be slated as Doug not getting Rimmer and ruining the show.
Not sure if there are contemporary fan reactions to it in the Smegazine (or BTL). I was a kid and Legion was the first full episode I ever saw, so I never minded.

It’s kind of incredible how late in the shows run they chose to make that change to be honest. 

The idea of hardlight had existed since the BTL book. And it’s 3-4 more years before they make it to screen 

Of course holoship wouldn’t be as impactful for Rimmer if he could touch before he met other holograms, but other than that you’d think they’d have leapt at a chance to give Rimmer more agency sooner. 

[Dax101]

Well hard light doesn’t ruin anything really. If Doug was to bring Rimmer back to life and stop being a hologram then maybe it would feel like a change that shouldn’t be there. But Rimmer not being able to touch hasn’t had that big of an impact on the show that it would be seen as ruining things.

Although to be fair the rules of Hardlight were forgotten after Series 6. Everything after Series 6 has been hard light holograms and the impenetrable part has since been forgotten. Ace said he was hard light in series 7 and died from gun shot hitting his lightbee. Howard was presumably hard light to

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Well hard light doesn’t ruin anything really. If Doug was to bring Rimmer back to life and stop being a hologram then maybe it would feel like a change that shouldn’t be there. But Rimmer not being able to touch hasn’t had that big of an impact on the show that it would be seen as ruining things.

Although to be fair the rules of Hardlight were forgotten after Series 6. Everything after Series 6 has been hard light holograms and the impenetrable part has since been forgotten. Ace said he was hard light in series 7 and died from gun shot hitting his lightbee. Howard was presumably hard light to

Maybe it was a hardlight bullet

to be fair I’d expect a normal bullet to succeed where a vase and a led pipe couldn’t 

[Dax101]

Well that still goes against the idea Rimmer is “virtually indestructible”

Legion: Mr. Rimmer, in a hard-light body, you can do anything a human can do, with the added bonus that you are practically indestructible. Unless you are shot with a gun of course.

[Dave]

Well hard light doesn’t ruin anything really. If Doug was to bring Rimmer back to life and stop being a hologram then maybe it would feel like a change that shouldn’t be there. But Rimmer not being able to touch hasn’t had that big of an impact on the show that it would be seen as ruining things.

Although to be fair the rules of Hardlight were forgotten after Series 6. Everything after Series 6 has been hard light holograms and the impenetrable part has since been forgotten. Ace said he was hard light in series 7 and died from gun shot hitting his lightbee. Howard was presumably hard light too

Yeah I don’t feel like hardlight has ruined anything really, and arguably it’s allowed Rimmer to be more involved in the physical aspects of the show in a way that’s beneficial (and doesn’t require longwinded workarounds for certain story ideas to work).

Even the inconsistencies over the indestructibility of hardlight don’t really bother me, the idea was only really set up to pay off at the end of Legion, it doesn’t feel that important in the grand scheme of things.

[clem]

It’s kind of incredible how late in the shows run they chose to make that change to be honest. 

The idea of hardlight had existed since the BTL book. And it’s 3-4 more years before they make it to screen

In the novel it only exists inside Rimmer’s fantasy though, and in the version of the game where it’s stopped keeping things at all grounded to disguise itself to boot*. Maybe Doug had to wear Rob down on the idea, like bringing Kryten back in III.

*Editing the post to say this bit might be bollocks. I haven’t checked but I think Rimmer “invents” the Solidgram before he finds out he’s in BTL, come to think of it.

[clem]

I think Rimmer “invents” the Solidgram before he finds out he’s in BTL

OK I’ve checked now and it’s actually in the BTL bit of the first novel, so the idea took even longer than you thought to make it into the show, Quinn! 

[Rushy]

In Last Human, Doug explicitly introduces Hard Light as some tech that Rimmer picked up from an abandoned ship en route back to the Omni-Zone. 

And if I remember correctly, Backwards never bothers with it at all, and just has Ace tell Rimmer to hit buttons with his light bee

[Flap Jack]

In the novel it only exists inside Rimmer’s fantasy though, and in the
version of the game where it’s stopped keeping things at all grounded to
disguise itself to boot*. Maybe Doug had to wear Rob down on the idea,
like bringing Kryten back in III.

Exactly, early on Rimmer’s frustration over lacking a corporeal form was a more central part of his characterisation. So it’s fine if Rimmer permanently gets a real body in a fantasy sequence, but for it to happen for real Rob and Doug need to be sure they’re not going to mine that any more.

Also, it’s not just Holoship that would have been ruined by hardlight – Bodyswap would have been the other big one, plus a few more minor instances like how he wouldn’t have had the motive to want to find aliens in Waiting for God.

On the other hand, if Rimmer were hardlight at the time, the planned ending to Dimension Jump would have worked.

But it’s funny that BTL (the novel) should come up, because even though it’s just a dream, that is another example in Red Dwarf canon of living human brains and simulated/mechanical brains being treated as equivalent. Trixie LaBouche sells her body and becomes a disembodied voice, and a hologram’s mind is able to inhabit the body.

The idea of a human mind without a body just being literal soundwaves is probably too overtly magical for the ‘real’ world though.

[Rushy]

The BTL sequences in general give me the vibe that Grant Naylor felt like they could cut themselves free from the restraints of logic and just go completely wild with the humour.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I rather meant Rob and Doug had the idea.

Sure it’s a fantasy to Rimmer, but it’s an idea they had, apparently in the first novel. So end is series 2?

given how by series IV episodes and lore we’re being taken from the books, it’s really is a bit surprising they waited until VI to make Rimmer solid. 

[Warbodog]

I definitely like him better as an insubstantial ghost, but by Terrorform (at least) they were getting silly with somehows, so had to just go for it. And baddies just had to aim for the light bee to double-kill him.

[tombow]

maybe Rimmer can’t enjoy pleasant touch, like a hug from a friend or a piece of fruit, just functionally lift things, which keeps him still feeling inhuman

[Technopeasant]

I have no issue with Rimmer becoming hardlight, partly because Legion actually puts the work into establishing it. I do agree with Dax that it is a little more eyebrow raising for every other hologram they meet to be hardlight now. Did Katerina and Howard really need to be? Other than the Touch-T joke I suppose.

[Flap Jack]

Well if Katerina weren’t hardlight then Rimmer couldn’t have pushed her in front of a car.

I mean, he could have pushed her (assuming hardlight holos can touch softlight ones), but the car wouldn’t have hit her.

[Rushy]

Well if Katerina weren’t hardlight then Rimmer couldn’t have pushed her in front of a car.
I mean, he could have pushed her (assuming hardlight holos can touch softlight ones), but the car wouldn’t have hit her.

That was a dream sequence tbf.

And if it wasn’t, the car could still hit the light bee maybe?

[Author]

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