Refresh For The Memory: Series XI Byte 1

[Ian Symes]

You asked for it. Ahead of the extremely imminent 35th anniversary poll, the G&T community is embarking on a big old rewatch, tackling half a series (or one feature length special) per week. This is your designated thread to make notes, share observations and start pondering your rankings.

This week, we’re watching TWENTICA, SAMSARA and GIVE & TAKE. Have at it!

Previous threads:

Series 1 Byte 1
Series 1 Byte 2
Series 2 Byte 1
Series 2 Byte 2
Series III Byte 1
Series III Byte 2
Series IV Byte 1
Series IV Byte 2
Series V Byte 1
Series V Byte 2
Series VI Byte 1
Series VI Byte 2
Series VII Byte 1
Series VII Byte 2
Series VIII Byte 1
Series VIII Byte 2
Back To Earth
Series X Byte 1
Series X Byte 2

[Stilianides]

Twentica

Immediately this strikes me as a big improvement on anything in Series X. The lengthy opening scene is played fairly straight and, for the most part, the humour comes naturally from the situation that the crew are in. I also don’t find the audience laughter to be as loud or intrusive as on Trojan (but that might be partly because I enjoy the episode more).

The shots of space and Starbug’s crash are competently done, even if they are understandably well short of what could be achieved during the BBC days.

The next several minutes are not hilarious by any means, but I think the sets kind of make these scenes. While you can probably tell that they could only afford to create a limited space, the look of the episode still creates a different atmosphere from other Dwarf adventures and it makes for a nice change to see the Dwarfers in a new environment. On one of the Dwarfcasts, I think it was discussed whether it was worth spending so much of the budget on the sets, but for me they ARE the episode.

The section with the scientists again isn’t great (with another attempt at a “deader than” joke) and it’s a surprise to see so much dialogue given to Harmony and so little to the main cast.

Enjoyable hackneyed old cliche gags and Doug cleverly cuts off the criticisms before they can start.

It’s a bit of a stretch for Bob to save the day and the main crew are spectators to a lot of the action.

There were some fine choices made in terms of the guest cast. Particularly Kevin Eldon, of course, and it was a nice touch to bring Rebecca Blackstone back. 

The very final scene is a disappointing ending to a solid piece of storytelling.

It makes me wish that Doug could have focused on only one plotline more often over the years.

[International Debris]

Twentica

I went into XI with high hopes after X’s clear improvement in quality and the excellent set reports. 

Opening scene immediately disappointed, from “sector no name, quadrant nameless” onwards. Chris isn’t overacting, but he still doesn’t quite feel like Rimmer. It’s still Chris doing lines, there’s no actual emotion in his overall performance between the lines. 

Simulants look like actual Simulants is always a plus.

”Three of 63, you’re nothing like him” feels like a very VIII overdone gag. 

Hackneyed old cliches is a good line. 

I really like the hostage idea, in a way it’s a shame it was used so little here. Lister’s hostage negotiations stuff doesn’t make me laugh. 

Everyone seemed to like the crash sequence on broadcast but I honestly think the model and CG stuff looks fucking awful. The final landing shot is decent but the rest is typical XI/XII.

Battered Mars bar gag doesn’t need applause. 

Kryten walking up and down throughout the scene is lovely. 

Rimmer wanting to be asked about his theory is good, an obvious gag but Chris’s “no” really sells it. 

I hadn’t read previews of the episodes, so the toaster scene took me by surprise. Very funny. 

How do they pay for the outfits? 

Hard to fault the sets. Stunning looking episode, really. 

English accent stuff is great. 

Scientific speakeasy is such a great idea. The episode really picks up here too. 

After a series of women being offed in, a strong female character like Harmony is really refreshing. 

Pram theory is fantastic. 

The theory of relativity has gone from something Rimmer cites, to something Rimmer doesn’t understand, to something Rimmer can’t even remember the name of. 

Kryten’s “it’s your string” muttering is fantastic. 

Bob the Bum is another great moment, a lovely silly performance too. 

“Just divide your mass by your volume” is my favourite line in the episode, still really makes me laugh. 

“We’re really not so different, you and I” is also great. 

Kevin Eldon is utterly superb, as ever. He really sells the comedy villain scene, which is still a concept I dislike, but works incredibly well on a comedy level. 

I love the way Doug acknowledges the whole staying on Earth concept, and handily avoids the fact that they could just fly away and then fly back once the EMP had gone off. 

While it lacks the terrible gags and performances that plagued your average X episode, it still struggles with the same poor opening scene issue that the previous series did for me. 

[International Debris]

Samsara 

Stunning opening sequence, it has to be said. Honestly much more than you could realistically expect from a Freeview channel original. 

Mineopoly scene is great. A lot of funny lines that all come from the characters, some genuinely good performances from both, followed by an amusingly daft concept that goes in with the plot. Rimmer looks weirdly bulky with the dressing gown over his shirt, but otherwise hard to fault that. Definitely the best opening since VI. 

“You must-“ is a nice gag. Two episodes in, two lots of humans encountered. 

Christ, that cone full of whipped cream. 

“I’ve been rolling in smeg my whole damn life Lister” is a great line. 

Bing bong machine. Honestly, I’ve laughed more in the first five minutes of this episode than the whole of Twentica. 

Rimmer introducing himself to the dead crew is overly reminiscent of the skeletons in Kryten. Lister’s sneeze is funny but reminiscent of DNA. 

The crashed Samsara looks like a toy. The focusing just feels really off and makes it look tiny, like a tilt shift effect.

Flashback stuff. I think it adds to the plot, feels like an idea from VII, but there’s too much overall. 

Skeleton sex and the responses are funny. 

There’s a touch of Back to Reality suicidal fish to the various murders. It’s all a nice mystery though. 

The stuff with the charity box, the food dispenser and knife is all quite fun, and works really well on repeat viewings when you know what’s going on. 

“Foot and eye disease” is brilliantly daft. 

Super swinging monkey arms, Lister walking into stuff, skeletons with glowsticks, honestly hard to fault this episode so far. 

Karma drive. Yeah, really not sure about it as such. I’m not sure if it’s just because it’s re-using Justice stuff. Also I just noticed it’s part of the Mega Corp code not to criticise. 

Archimedes is a great gag, the other stuff is enjoyably daft with good moments – wizard pen, Alan Einstein, knighthood – but it definitely goes on too long and requires too many leaps, like Lister knowing who invented the magic marker. It might even have been better if it was split up. 

I think my real problem with the flashbacks is they add to the populated universe feel of this era. 

“Best guess” is a hell of a leap here. 

God that ending. Not the worst of the era, but it’s really rushed, like it ends halfway through a scene. 

If the long Cat and Lister thing was cut by a couple of minutes and replaced by a couple of minutes of them trying to escape by being unkind to each other in humorous ways, that would be a really strong episode. As it is, I do still really like it as a largely character-led slow piece with a lot of great gags, despite its issues. 

[International Debris]

Give & Take

Another episode that works well on multiple viewings. 

“The stairs” is great. 

Generally solid lift stuff, feels like proper Red Dwarf. 

Bloody hell, a good Starbug and Red Dwarf composite shot. 

Captain Bollocks is all very good. 

A pumping station! It’s been a while. 

Not sure about the VIII-style sci-fi font in the Asclepius Suite. 

Ah, snacky! Lovely, lovely snacky. 

Ronald Littlewood still feels really awkward and weird. 

Asclepius is great, a genuinely threatening villain still used as a source of comedy. 

The whole destruction of the space station section looks stunning. Starbug alongside Red Dwarf less so. 

Rimmer’s joy at Lister’s illness is great. 

“A hole” is bloody tremendous. Doesn’t need the “where your kidney used to be” continuation. Whole scene is brilliant. 

Rimmer dealing with his parent-based psychological issues really feels like this should be the first episode of the series. The lettuce and talcum powder verge on lolrandom but it’s a solid idea. Shame Rimmer’s seeming growth is now completely ignored. I wouldn’t expect a huge character change, but if anything he becomes less sympathetic after this. 

Stasis booths acting as a portal into the past. Where have we seen this before? 

Double Lister scene is so good. 

If Lister’s been in bed for two days because of this whole thing, how is all this happening right at the start of the episode where he’s already been in bed for two days? This has always bugged me. 

I still feel like the episode would have been better served with Lister realising that Asclepius hadn’t actually stolen his kidneys and been angry at Kryten when he worked out he’d been through all this for nothing. Would have been better than a nuclear powered lift. 

Those last two niggles aside, I can’t really fault that episode. Another interesting plot, great jokes and characters acting in character. 

[cwickham]

I like leaving us with the implication that Asclepius was actually perfectly sane, and that if Rimmer and Kryten had not waded in the events of the episode would never have happened. Possibly the episode’s a little too oblique about it but I’m not sure it needs spelling out.

[Flap Jack]

I like leaving us with the implication that Asclepius was actually perfectly sane

[cwickham]

I mean it’s possible he’s a bit confused, but he’s absolutely right that one of them needs an operation and the other could be the donor.

[Flap Jack]

The theory that Asclepius detected that Lister had no kidneys and assumed he was a patient he had scheduled for a kidney transplant makes sense, but the guy clearly had no idea who anyone really was or what was going on around him, so “perfectly sane” is a bit of stretch.

[Flap Jack]

Twentica – My distinct memory of first watching this in 2016 (on Dave. I successfully resisted the temptations of UKTV Play) is that good laughs were a bit thin on the ground, but it was hugely enjoyable all the same due the story and the performances. The look of the alternate 50s was really well done, the concept was good, and it impresses with a trifecta of top notch guest characters (4 of 27, Harmony de Gauthier, and Bob the Bum). And honestly I think my past self was too harsh about the jokes too, because there are plenty of good ones. The hype back then was just too much to live up to.

– Regarding the Starbug crash model sequence, I think the shots where it’s generally descending are a bit ropey, but the last 2 shots where it actually crashes are very good.

– Elephant in the room with these alternate 20th century history stories… what happened with World War II? The Exponoids took over the whole world, right, so despite being totalitarian themselves, they probably prevented both the holocaust and the war. And considering their main anti-technology MO, they would have prevented the development of the atomic bomb, meaning not only were Hiroshima and Nagasaki spared, but similar atrocities couldn’t even happen in theory. Jeez, this whole occupation is a bit morally greyer than you’d like it to be.

– Alternate 1950s America may be behind on technology, but they’re way ahead on pizza delivery services.

– Nice to finally have an excuse to reference how Lister shares the name of a famous scientist.

– Given that the Exponoids achieved total global domination, it seems awfully convenient that Starbug would crash right near where the most successful resistance group were, right at the time they were on the verge of making an anti-Exponoid breakthrough. Add extra convenience on top for the fact that the specific Exponoid they met initially is the one leading the raid against the speakeasy. (Though I guess they were following their slipstream, so maybe that area was their HQ.)

– Lots of time paradoxes involved with the Exponoids plan here – chiefly that halting the progress of technology would prevent the Exponoids from being created in the first place, and prevent the creation of the spaceship they stole the time travel tech from too. Maybe that’s a sign they were destined to be defeated?

– Bob the Bum’s enthusiasm for helping is surprisingly endearing. And he succeeds despite having no expertise! It shows what you can achieve if you just have the confidence.

– Impressive that they managed to get from the speakeasy all the way back to Starbug in under 15 minutes, considering how far out that seemed to be, but I guess they didn’t have the stolen car for the whole way in.

– The Dwarfers travelled to the past by following the Exponoids’ trail, but how did they travel back to the future?

– It’s incredible that they didn’t need to undo the 30 years of alternate history at all, given the course of history must have changed far more radically in this episode than in Tikka to Ride or Timeslides. Then again, as mentioned above, it might have been jarring for them to prioritise going back to ensure millions of extra deaths occurred. Let’s just assume this Twentica business is all in a parallel timeline now, and not worry about it.

– I don’t mind Lister reflecting on the episode’s events and deciding The Moral of the Story in theory, but only if it actually makes sense. Here Lister says the moral is that people shouldn’t let themselves become too dependent on technology, but preventing people from becoming too dependent on technology was literally the goal of the villains. Actually, that’s being generous, they just said humans “couldn’t handle modern technology” , which is much more vague. Overdependency on technology was just not mentioned prior to the end at all. I would have gladly taken some Kryten sax playing over that ending.

[Stilianides]

Samsara

Some solid effects shots to open the episode which unfortunately lead on to the board game scene. This, to me, feels like a fan fiction rewrite of some ideas from the earlier series and Rimmer is again nothing more than a caricature. Chris’s performance is too broad and Rimmer running away to his bunk is a little embarrassing to watch.

I’m also not sure it entirely makes sense within the story. I understand Lister winning because he cheated, but Rimmer also behaved badly by demanding to be allowed to roll again and again. Shouldn’t that have affected the scores that he was getting?

I take back everything I said about the low key audience reactions of the previous ep, as during the ice cream scene the whoops and guffaws are deeply annoying. I do like the, “I’ve been rolling in smeg my whole life” line, but Chris and Craig are both hamming it up something rotten.

Quite an interesting concept to have the mystery element of discovering why Green and Barker suddenly died. I can’t help thinking that more could have been made of this if we’d been given a reason to care about them in the first place. As it is, they appear for only a couple of seconds before they are gone. The flashback sections are all very odd and feel out of place. There is some really dodgy acting and the characters are written in an incredibly unsympathetic way. 

Some of the shaky handheld camerawork leaves me feeling a little dizzy.

Old jokes aplenty including “we’re in big trouble” and Rimmer greeting the two deceased visitors in such a similar way to Kryten. 

The dialogue during the Formica scene doesn’t sound remotely convincing. It also drags on forever. I wonder if some of these lines were originally written for Kryten because they would make a lot more sense coming out of his mouth. It’s stuff like this that makes me wish that an extra creative had been involved with the show as it defies belief that nobody pointed out to Doug that it sounds like Lister is quoting directly from Wikipedia.

It’s good that Doug acknowledged that this is a sequel to Justice, but the quality is infinitely below Series IV.

Ultimately, I appreciate Doug trying to focus on one plotline, but the execution is terrible. There is no tension at all, and having the three pairings (Lister and Cat, Kryten and Rimmer, Green and Barker) alternately appearing means that there is a real stop/start feel to things. Especially when the order is sometimes: Kryten in the present giving a lengthy pure exposition speech about the Karma drive, Green and Barker in the past providing pure exposition, Lister and Cat talking inanely about inventors. There is no flow and I lose interest long before the credits roll.

[Future Producer of Series IX – aaaaany day now]

Shame Rimmer’s seeming growth is now completely ignored. I wouldn’t expect a huge character change, but if anything he becomes less sympathetic after this. 

See? I’m not the only one who thinks that!

[Future Producer of Series IX – aaaaany day now]

 – It’s incredible that they didn’t need to undo the 30 years of alternate history at all, given the course of history must have changed far more radically in this episode than in Tikka to Ride or Timeslides. Then again, as mentioned above, it might have been jarring for them to prioritise going back to ensure millions of extra deaths occurred. Let’s just assume this Twentica business is all in a parallel timeline now, and not worry about it. 

To be fair, the last time they had to reset history they got JFK to shoot himself.

I still hate that they gloss over the small matter of the entirety of the 20th century onwards being totally rewritten by a 20 year occupation stunting the technological progress of humanity.

[Warbodog]

Twentica

Hey, that was pretty good! Most characters were on point (agree that Barry sadly remains the weakest link there), it’s a strong visual improvement (which was superficially my main impression at the time), and I’m not as immune to nostalgiabait as I like to think (some cockpit shots gave me real nice series V vibes, I think it’s mainly the angle of Lister’s steering wheel or something).

In other ways, it felt very much like the episode following The Beginning, with a similar low-budget sci-fi adventure starring comedy Simulants, but I enjoyed those guys more here. Kind of a better Tikka to Ride too.

– Apparently, I felt tense excitement for the hostage reveal the the first time.

– Gazpacho Soup comprehensively covered the Star Trek crap (I hadn’t noticed some things, like the period holodeck stuff), but I have to do this bit:

– The wormhole is more like Sliders crap.

– Arriving considerably later than the other time travellers is also from something that I should know really well… what is that… probably more Star Trek (Future’s End?)

– A nice looking episode, if unavoidably boxed-in in that Dave era way.

– Funniest: Cat’s response to “he’s moaning” was my only proper laugh, but there were enjoyable non-lol gags throughout, particularly the cliche stuff.

– I liked the extended science/prohibition melding. I would have loved more relentless punning along the lines of big bang and the double slit experiment, but that’s not really Red Dwarf, it’s more a Rhys Hughes short story.

– I enjoyed the ‘Allo ‘Allo Simulants too, even if they feel more Hitchhiker’s than classic Red Dwarf. But new Red Dwarf is established enough by this point that it’s started to just feel like itself.

Kevin Eldon is utterly superb, as ever. He really sells the comedy villain scene, which is still a concept I dislike, but works incredibly well on a comedy level.

I feel the same. I remember thinking he didn’t feel like a great fit for Red Dwarf, but I’ve lightened up. He was a delight. When G&T cryptically teased the guest star for this episode, I was really hoping it was him.

The Dwarfers travelled to the past by following the Exponoids’ trail, but how did they travel back to the future?

Some version of:

LAFORGE: Captain, I’ve reconfigured our warp field to match the chronometric readings of the Borg sphere.
PICARD: Recreate the vortex, Commander.

[International Debris]

Possibly the episode’s a little too oblique about it but I’m not sure it needs spelling out.

There was a fair amount of “how can Asclepius have removed Lister’s kidneys when he didn’t have any?” discussion on here and Twitter after the episode, which suggests to me that maybe a little more exposition was needed. As I say, something like Lister realising and threatening to do something to Kryten could have made it a fun jokey ending. 

The Dwarfers travelled to the past by following the Exponoids’ trail, but how did they travel back to the future?

One of them takes the Casket of Chronos from round the neck of an Exponoid as they’re leaving the speakeasy. 

[Warbodog]

Samsara

This is a difficult one. On the first watch, I was the happiest I’d been since the Trojan relief. The whole first half had me invested, entertained and hopeful of a latter-day classic.

I’m letting it balance out respectably, but it’s a shame. Then again, the reveal of Justice II via Entangled was never going to be a top 10.

– The opening recaptures the early years (specifically III-IV) very nicely, making X’s retro efforts pale by comparison. I like the warmth of them whiling away the time together, even if it is for stakes.

– The bunkroom scenes are the most I’ve enjoyed Chris Barrie and probably Rimmer since Cassandra or maybe even Out of Time. “I was no fool. I knew he was real.” Lister’s put-downs are more old hat, but they would be by now. It feels genuine.

– The Blue Dwarf vexation really begins. It just looks like they’re trying to look hip or something. Turn it down.

– I even quite like how the unnecessary joke explanation of “on to two then” is delivered. It’s like Doug is learning!

– I still enjoy the unfolding mystery. Nice transitions and music. Love a derelict, always loved skeletons.

– Cat’s evolution burn is funny, but remember when you had super feline smell?

– I think we get the Karma Drive explanation at the right point for clarity without being patronising. We’ve probably worked out the basics, may even have noticed that it’s just reverse Justice if we’re appropriately cynical.

– Although the detail of it being deliberately reprogrammed did escape me even on rewatch (and even with Kryten’s hint). I just figured the tech had gone wrong/insane as usual.

– The sequel reveal bursts the bubble and the episode completely falls apart. The apple pie scene is like Garth Marenghi played straight and the formica scene is the most boring thing in Red Dwarf (oh, it’s supposed to be? That’s okay then).

– We see Kryten figure it out in real time, but then he susses the affair seemingly based on nothing. Then again, he is an Androids fanatic.

– You what, they just got out, did they? Fuuuuuuuu

[Flap Jack]

– You what, they just got out, did they? Fuuuuuuuu

[Future Producer of Series IX – aaaaany day now]

Shame Rimmer

Did you say Shane Rimmer?

[Rudolph]

I love Lister’s new punk-esque Hawaiian shirts. They match better with his new jacket, rather than the twenty year old shirt and t-shirt he wore under it in X, which he’d been wearing as far back as III. The Mod style scarf, clearly Craig’s suggestion, also ties it together nicely.

[Warbodog]

Give & Take

The one that’s really popular that I never really cared for. It comes through later on with the wraparound, but it otherwise feels a bit like Red Dwarf by template and like it’s missing a pivotal and funny scene where Kryten guiltily realises they’ve caused this whole unnecessary mess. Don’t get coy about explaining the jokes now.

I appreciated it more this time, but I still prefer Stasis Leak, and that’s hardly a favourite. In their different ways, the three episodes of this byte have ended up pretty much interchangeable in my 6s. The next byte should be more polarising.

– I get why Snacky’s a favourite. He starts as a funny gag and goes through intense character growth. He’s an inspiration to us all.

– Asclepius feels underdeveloped by contrast and necessity, but ‘no longer insane’ is perfectly realised.

– Funniest parts were in the medibay, especially Cat enthusiastically injecting himself with vitamins.

– Star Trek crap: I was reminded of a boring Voyager plot where Neelix’s lungs got robbed.

– The elementary deception of Cat is funny, but I find that whole part really unpleasant, I’m glad it was foiled.

– Reverse Justice was lazy repetition; actively harnessing stasis leaks is satisfying continuity.

– Lister vs Lister, Rimmer vs Rimmer in the lift, this part’s excellent and the split screens have never looked more natural.

– The first time, I was immediately left pondering the kidneys and needed it explained, more than any series X plot inferences. It gives you a reason to rewatch though.

[Warbodog]

I forgot to point out for Samsara how weird Kryten’s violence against Lister is, even before it’s to save him.

[Formica]

[Ian Symes]

Manchester City fans between 2005 and 2015.

[Flap Jack]

If Lister’s been in bed for two days because of this whole thing, how is
all this happening right at the start of the episode where he’s already
been in bed for two days? This has always bugged me.

This is a good point. Thinking about it, there are 2 possible explanations:

1 – The future crew were keeping Lister sedated for 2 days on past Dwarf, before they moved him to the sleeping quarters. (Seems like it would be a big risk to hang around in the past that long, but maybe they wanted to be absolutely sure he wouldn’t wake up early, or they just needed to make sure they would be there to resolve any after affects of the operation.)

2 – There was actually a significant time jump between Rimmer attempting to call for the lift, and him arriving in the sleeping quarters to wake Lister. After all, intitially he was trying to go down to B deck to check out the strange energy signatures (which I assume were a result of the time travel shenanigans), but by the time he speaks to Lister, he’s concerned with them coming across the space station. It makes sense for there to be a gap, because if the scenes were consecutive, then that would mean they were already in close proximity to the space station from the start, which would surely be a priority over the B deck energy signatures.

I’m personally leaning towards explanation 2.

[Jonathan Capps]

Manchester City fans between 2005 and 2015.

And never Villa fans.

[Formica]

what happened with World War II?

[Formica]

TWENTICA

They pan down from a ceiling on an outdoor shot.

They open a scene

by pointing a camera

~Ooh, maybe they’re inside!!~ you say. ~A covered alley? A hallway?~ Ah yes, inside, classically known for

and most damning of all, with the exact same lighting,

Separating these two scenes is nothing but a brief glimpse at

Sure, I can understand it if

but it’s far enough removed from the viewers’ attention that you wouldn’t naturally spot it, hell,

But if you need something to cut to as your characters travel

surely the right idea isn’t to show it by cutting to

Oh what’s that? Nuclear fusion is an advanced science, so stars are too high-tech and a threat to Exponoid domination, and the sky has been replaced with

These poor characters have been roaming the streets of this city for hours, half freezing to death, unable to navigate by the stars because they’re blocked by

[McAleeCh]

Have to admit, I watched Twentica a few times around its original broadcast and never noticed that. I’m guessing the intention was to comp in a sky to pan down from, and that either they had trouble doing it or just sort of forgot about it when it came to the edit.
Very strange either way – you’d have thought they’d at least try to cut the pan down if it was due to difficulties in the edit, which makes me lean towards them just plain forgetting it was supposed to be an FX shot at all.

Still, whatever the reason, it’s there and now that it’s been pointed out it’s one of those things I’ll never be able to unsee, much like the completely bare green-screen in the last shot of the opening scene of Doctor Who’s “Midnight”.

[Dave]

It was Rimmer’s fault for not ceiling the drive plate properly.

[Warbodog]

The Expanoids don’t want humans to look up at the stars and get ideas about science and freedom, some boring excuse like that.

[Unrumble]

Presumably they were experiencing the opposite of this issue in Confidence & Paranoia…

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I have never, ever, noticed that ceiling before. 
The mind just completely ignores it and fills in the gaps

I am shaken. 

This is a bigger reveal than finding out the opening theme tune has lyrics 

[Jonathan Capps]

Formica’s new Grime track just dropped.

[Moonlight]

Eh, I mean it wouldn’t be Series XI / XII without the enormously impressive production being undercut by some element of the edit that’s obviously not finished.

[Unrumble]

I remembered Give and Take being one of the better episodes, but a couple of observations to sit with others made in the ‘rehashing’ department:

Cat saying he reckons the skeleton is dead, is reminiscent of his comment about the piles of dust in just the previous episode. 

Finding the skeleton seems to have stabbed itself is very ‘Back to Reality’. 

[Flap Jack]

Samsara – A pretty good episode, with a couple of major drawbacks. The karma drive is a good concept to base a story around – I don’t mind that it’s derivative of Justice, because it does something different with it – and the mystery overall unfolds at a good pace. The drawbacks are of course the dead weight that is the tedious Lister/Cat Archimedes conversation, and the abrupt ending, which has got to be the worst of the Dave era abrupt ending phenomenon. It’s a real shame, because these issues could well have resolved each other – keep Lister and Cat’s conversation short (but maybe show that Cat’s starting to talk about something long and boring before cutting away) and use the extra time to make them escaping while avoiding being nice to each other a comedy setpiece. But as it is, the situation they’re stuck in is built up for too long and then is immediately not a problem for them (despite how it killed the whole of the Samsara crew). Oh well.

– Rimmer says the odds of throwing a 2 and a 1 with 2 dice is 18 to 1, but it’s actually 17 to 1. So if you, like me, ever wondered whether it was Rob or Doug who was responsible for confusing odds with fractions in Quarantine… well, it could have been both of them, but definitely Doug.

– Nice detail that Rimmer has the Battleplan Timetable from The Beginning on the wall of his bunk, though you’d think he’d want a record of his actually successful plan, not his abandoned draft.

– The image of Barker when she’s trying to warn them is pretty crap. It just looks like a screengrab of her from one of the flashbacks, not any kind of live feed.

– Given what happened to Barker and Green, and what happened with Rimmer and Lister’s Mine-opoly game, is the idea that the escape pod has its own dedicated karma drive, or that Samsara’s own drive has an absurdly long range? Either way seems impractical, and dangerous for Red Dwarf to be in range for the whole episode. They were lucky not to get punished for trying to help Barker and Green in the first place.

– This is yet another episode where skeletons refuse to decompose after millions of years. Maybe I should just accept that skeletons are made of tougher stuff in the Red Dwarf universe, because this seems to happen more often than not. Perhaps the original crew only became dust due to the radiation.

– Lovely that Cat finally gets to meet a disabled icon of his, The One Armed Bandit.

– Enjoyed the interaction about evolution and Cat not being able to see in the dark. I agree that the show is kind of having its cake and eating it too by having Cat have super cat powers in other regards, but it still makes sense that he wouldn’t be able to do everything an unevolved cat could.

– Those karma drive engineers really should have thought better of making “kill the perpetrator” a possible punishment. If a crewmember does something that would warrant the death penalty, maybe defer that to the courts, yeah? Although maybe the idea is it would never have done that until Barker tampered with it, and she just randomly broke aspects of it while making the reward/punishment switch.

– It’s funny that Kryten deduced Barker and Green’s affair with a “best guess”, because the flashbacks established that the karma drive recorded all transgressions, so Kryten could have just looked into the logs.

[Dave]

the abrupt ending, which has got to be the worst of the Dave era abrupt ending phenomenon

Officer Rimmer disagrees.

[Flap Jack]

the abrupt ending, which has got to be the worst of the Dave era abrupt ending phenomenon

Officer Rimmer disagrees.

Samsara is a worse abrupt ending than Officer Rimmer for me, because Samsara actively fails to resolve how they escape. In Officer Rimmer, we know they just defeat the Rimmonster by shooting it.

[Formica]

Perhaps the original crew only became dust due to the radiation.

Didn’t they become dust because mice ate them then immediately shit them into conveniently arranged piles? I suppose that was probably a joke, but funny enough to accept it as explanation for me

[Warbodog]

Given what happened to Barker and Green, and what happened with Rimmer and Lister’s Mine-opoly game, is the idea that the escape pod has its own dedicated karma drive, or that Samsara’s own drive has an absurdly long range?

Rimmer guesses it’s the second and the knowitall mechanoid doesn’t dispute it.

They were lucky not to get punished for trying to help Barker and Green in the first place.

I saw Barker warning them as just more self-preservation, so they could work around the Karma Drive together and get rescued. This contributed to my sense of the Drive being actively malicious, but it’s really more confused.

Perhaps the original crew only became dust due to the radiation.

The End always gave me the impression that they went up like so many Mayors of Warsaw and their ashes rained down into the undisturbed piles, even if Me2 and all other general depictions of radiation exposure suggest different. I suppose the Skutters could have just continually and respectfully tidied their remains as they decomposed, Holly could put together a fun time lapse video for Lister to enjoy with popcorn.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I have to push back on this abrupt ending tosh. Red Dwarf is littered with examples of ending a lot like Samsara and no-one complains, probably because they enjoy the episode. But because Dave era has this “not quite as good” aura too it (which again I disagree with a lot of the time) the endings are unfairly scrutinised.

Better Than Life, Thanks for the Memory, DNA, Legion, Emohawk all end on a “well how are they going to get out of that” scenario. But as far as the episode is concerned the story is over so we don’t see it.

Samsara doesn’t need to show them escape the ship. That’s not really the story.  It would have been funny, but then so would lots of imagined things that weren’t written.  They’ve solved the mystery, they leave. That’s all we need.

Same is true of Office Rimmer.  What more is gained by anything after them shooting? The jarring aspect for me is the way it cuts into he theme tune and missed a bar out (something a lot of the series does), not the fact we don’t see the monster explode.

What Kryten should have done was just reset the karma drive, but then we’d lose him punching Lister.

I also want to defend the Cat and Lister scene. Regardless of the likelihood of Lister knowing some things (again Red Dwarf is littered with inconsistencies towards Lister’s intelligence and knowledge base) the scene is really funny and probably the strongest single bit of comedy in the episode.  I’ve always wondered, and wished we’d got, the original Lister and Cat stuck in a lift episode.  As much as I don’t mind a Justice re-tread, a Lister and Cat Marooned would have been more original.

[Warbodog]

It’s more lack of familiarity for me than treating the series differently. Officer Rimmer’s ending is the infamous one that’s always talked about (though it didn’t bother me at the time, I’ll have to see), but I didn’t remember how Samsara ended, so was just disappointed anew.

I don’t think Better Than Life and Thanks for the Memory need any more. DNA could do with another 30 seconds of Kryten changing back and ending on some quip or lesson. Legion and Emohawk (and Polymorph and maybe more) leave the peril hanging, but there’s not really anything to do there. Samsara could have tried to get some gags out of it, especially since it felt like it was padded elsewhere.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

And that’s the point, some people think Samsara is weaker in places so think less of that and a longer ending would be better, where as older examples aren’t an issue because they enjoyed the episode more.  So its nothing to do with the ending but how you felt about the episode as a whole.

I don’t think Samsara was padded, I enjoyed it for what it was. If anything were to change it would be to go back to the original premise completely.  But the ending isn’t an issue in anyway.  They resolve the mystery and escape.  We don’t need to see how.  They’ve figured it out. 

[Warbodog]

That’s something I’m getting over with the rewatch. I’m enjoying XI more as an archive series than a current one, maybe because there’s no pressure and tension any more. I cared more about Samsara being as good as it could be, since it could have been my favourite Dave episode.

On this rewatch, series IV stood out as the lame endings series to me, and it’s counted against some of those classics a bit (probably costing Justice its 10).

[Unrumble]

They resolve the mystery and escape. We don’t need to see how they’ve figured it out. 

[Stilianides]

Give and Take

For personal reasons, I find it a little difficult to watch this episode due to the kidney transplant plot. I can acknowledge, though, that it is one of the strongest episodes of the later series.

I wonder how much of an influence completing the Bodysnatcher script had on Doug’s decision to include so many talking machines in Dave era Dwarf. In the commentary for that, he mentions that it was one of the things that they originally intended to do, and since the show returned they have been fairly ubiquitous. I don’t especially enjoy Rimmer’s opening conversation with the lift, as it is very broad and neither of the performances are particularly impressive.

Things pick up when we bump into Snacky and kudos to the art department for his perfect design. 

It then feels a little rushed when Lister and Cat are rescued so quickly.

Some neat writing from Doug in the way that the Snacky/Asclepius/Professor confusion is continued, and in getting Cat to agree to give up his kidney.

Rimmer’s scene with Snacky could be funnier. Especially the “Teddy Bear” line.

I’ve written in my notes that an idea is repeated from Twentica, but I can’t remember what it is.

The shot of Lister choking himself is expertly done, but I don’t especially like the whole idea of the resolution.

The ending in the lift feels very abrupt. I appreciate Doug trying to tie together the beginning and end, I’m just not sure about the execution.

[International Debris]

The thing about the Samsara ending for me is that it feels too abrupt, rather than it doesn’t explain the escape. True, I think there’s a great comedy concept in them escaping by being nasty to each other, but the real issue is that we get a fairly contrived callback to the opening scene, Rimmer pulls a face, oh wait does that mean- It’s cold outside, there’s no kind of atmosphere.  

Just a few more seconds for the revelation to breathe, for Rimmer to react and maybe shout something at Lister, and I wouldn’t mind. It just feels like it cuts off mid-scene for me. Kind of reminds me of some of those early ‘60s pop songs that end with a two second fade out because they didn’t really know how else to end them.  

Why has Better Than Life been mentioned as an unresolved ending? It literally ends on Game Over.

[Flap Jack]

I have to push back on this abrupt ending tosh. Red Dwarf is littered
with examples of ending a lot like Samsara and no-one complains,
probably because they enjoy the episode. But because Dave era has this
“not quite as good” aura too it (which again I disagree with a lot of
the time) the endings are unfairly scrutinised.

Better Than Life, Thanks for the Memory, DNA,
Legion, Emohawk all end on a “well how are they going to get out of
that” scenario. But as far as the episode is concerned the story is over
so we don’t see it.

Samsara doesn’t need to
show them escape the ship. That’s not really the story.  It would have
been funny, but then so would lots of imagined things that weren’t
written.  They’ve solved the mystery, they leave. That’s all we need.

Same is true of Office
Rimmer.  What more is gained by anything after them shooting? The
jarring aspect for me is the way it cuts into he theme tune and missed a
bar out (something a lot of the series does), not the fact we don’t see
the monster explode.

I agree with you that abrupt endings aren’t unique to the Dave era, but it is more of a consistent trend in this series, and they’re less well done. Because that’s the key thing – it’s not just whether the ending is abrupt on paper, but whether it feels jarring to watch. As long as the story is effectively resolved and the note it ends on is punchy/funny enough, an episode can get away with an abrupt ending, and I’d argue that all of the BBC era examples you cite achieve that, except for Emohawk (which is such a mess anyway, its ending doesn’t stand out) and Thanks for the Memory (which I never would have categorised as having an abrupt ending at all).

For Officer Rimmer, I do agree that the abrupt ending there isn’t that big of a drawback. It’s just the fact that the defeat of the monster is so built up to, and you think they’re going to do something actually clever to defeat it, but then you get “oh they’re just shooting it, oh it’s over” in the fraction of a second. It really only needed an extra 30 seconds for the monster to actually be destroyed, and for them to make a quip or something afterwards, and that would have solved it.

But Samsara is not like the other abrupt endings, in any era. For those other episodes, you’re generally right that they’re pretty much out of the woods, and things being fully resolved is a foregone conclusion, but that is absolutely not the case here. Barker and Green knew 100% what the karma drive was doing, but they barely escaped the main ship and were instantly vaporised the moment they even tried to do something vaguely good, so saying “oh, well they know what’s going on now, so they’ll escape no problem” is nowhere near good enough. It could have been mitigated if the final moment had been good, but Cat noticing that Lister has Mine-opoly cards on him is incredibly weak.

If DNA had ended as abruptly as Samsara, then it would have ended at the reveal of tiny robo-Lister, leaving the audience to assume that of course if they have a tiny robo-Lister then victory is guaranteed.

[Dave]

If DNA had ended as abruptly as Samsara, then it would have ended at the reveal of tiny robo-Lister, leaving the audience to assume that of course if they have a tiny robo-Lister then victory is guaranteed.

[Formica]

It literally ends on Game Over.

It’s such a shit Game Over that it’s far easier to believe it’s just another trick of the game or silly episode text than to believe the game’s ended.

[Author]

Posts