What do you expect from Titan?

[Rushy]

As we are so close to release, I’m curious to know what other fans are hoping/thinking they’ll get out of this new book. Any predictions about the tone, the story?

Topic

[Ian Symes]

I’ve seen a leaked paragraph on Tumblr.

Anyone else seen it? I will not re-post.

Just looked this up. Someone who’d been given a review copy has taken it upon themselves to post an extract because “technically no NDAs were signed”. What a prick. People have been waiting thirty years for this. There’s a whole marketing campaign going on, people are happily speculating about what to expect, and some bellend comes along and tries to ruin it for everyone, just because there’s one paragraph in a 406-page novel that, completely shorn of context, fits their agenda. This sort of thing can really damage the relationship between the industry and fans, not just for Red Dwarf but for everything, and make it harder for fan writers and content creators to be trusted.

[Unrumble]

Infinity will be getting fair low to middling ratings from people who tried it out and it wasn’t their thing. Less likely to happen with BTL due to it being a sequel and having a gross cover. 

I had a copy of Infinity, but only ever read BTL as part of the Omnibus, so didn’t have to endure the feet…

[Frank Smeghammer]

[Doomitron]

Richard was a producer on the show. Of course he had some influence over what was included in the script and what wasn’t, but that’s not the same thing as being a script editor.

[Technopeasant]

In someways I’d say BTL is my least favorite. It pails compared to Infinity and is less interesting than either solo attempt.

[Doomitron]

BTL > IWCD > Backwards > Last Human > The Log: A Dwarfer’s Guide to Everything

[tombow]

Infinity and BTL are one book to me, I can’t separate them in a list.

[Rushy]

I used to not like Better than Life much, but on my most recent read, the character arcs of Lister and Rimmer really stood out. They were both completely different people by the end of it. It’s a shame neither of the sequels ever picked up on that. 

As a general criticism, I think Better than Life and Backwards both get carried away with their surrealist worlds. I’m always more entertained by the mundane chapters set on the ship. 

[Warbodog]

Better Than Life is full of amazing stuff, and maybe no more episodic than Infinity is, but I don’t think it comes together in one glorious whole, falling to your knees and weeping in ecstasy as choirs of angels descend, in quite the same way.

[Doomitron]

[Dave]

Better Than Life is full of amazing stuff, and maybe no more episodic than Infinity is, but I don’t think it comes together in one glorious whole, falling to your knees and weeping in ecstasy as choirs of angels descend, in quite the same way.

Yeah, exactly this. It’s a novel of many different parts stitched into a larger tapestry, whereas Infinity feels much more elegant in the way everything is tied together.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I think I maybe prefer BTL. 

The pre accident stuff in Infinity (sorry, Red Dwarf) is its strongest part. Then it is mostly retread if episodes. Admittedly in interesting and different ways, but it’s all scenes and story we’ve experienced before (mostly)

I think BTL is thought of as closer to the second half of Infinity (sorry, Red Dwarf), in that’s its various episodes stitched together. But the expansion in BTL is a big part and very very different to the show, and the whole Garbage World section (and the history that comes with it) is fantastic stuff that really suits the book because it can only really be done in that medium. 

BTL has what, a bit of Marooned, pool with planets, and then most of Polymorph is tacked on the end. In my mind, of the two, it’s the more original book. And even has genuine peril and sadness with quite an interesting ending.

Backwards is infinitely better than Last Human so I’m rather looking forward to Titan

[Warbodog]

Better Than Life (novel) also has Backwards (episode, not novel) in it, like Infinity (sorry, Red Dwarf (novel)) also has Better Than Life (episode, not novel).

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Better Than Life (novel) also has Backwards (episode, not novel) in it, like Infinity (sorry, Red Dwarf (novel)) also has Better Than Life (episode, not novel).

It is only a bit though, and it’s nothing like the episode. 

I feel with Infinity there’s more near complete episodes, or scenes in it, BTL borrows ideas more than anything else. 

[Doomitron]

BTL has what, a bit of Marooned, pool with planets, and then most of Polymorph is tacked on the end.

Keep in mind the pool with planets in BTL came before White Hole, which adapted that chunk from the novel. BTL I think has the most original content of the novels, possibly rivaled by Last Human.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Keep in mind the pool with planets in BTL came before White Hole, which adapted that chunk from the novel. BTL I think has the most original content of the novels, possibly rivaled by Last Human.

Indeed, yes

[Dax101]

Well the novels came about because Rob and Doug were thinking about turning their episodes into novels to expand on their ideas. Similar to what Doctor Who did. But then they decided to do an alternative Novel universe. And as time went on you can see it evolved beyond their original idea. 

Infinity is best novel, BTL still has some of that charm even if you can see it starting to evolve beyond the original concept. And the 2 solo novels i find them both to have their issues. they both kinda lack something thats missing.

[Flap Jack]

The pre accident stuff in Infinity (sorry, Red Dwarf) is its strongest part.

No need to apologise, Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers is the actual title we’ve been over this.

[tombow]

now it’s in the main google result I thought I’d spruce my cover up a bit

[Technopeasant]

As a general criticism, I think Better than Life and Backwards both get carried away with their surrealist worlds. I’m always more entertained by the mundane chapters set on the ship.

That is essentially my problem with BTL yes. The closest they get to catching a break is watching the Flintstones while in recovery from the game (which was itself several chapters too long).

[Doomitron]

I love the escape from the game in BTL. Only weak part of the novel for me is the Marooned adaption only because I don’t think it works in print form and they don’t add anything to it.

[Rushy]

I will forever mourn the adaptation of Thanks for the Memory. I wish we could have an extended version with those chapters restored. 

(Actually, if we could take Future Echoes out, I’d be fine with that too)

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

The pre accident stuff in Infinity (sorry, Red Dwarf) is its strongest part.
No need to apologise, Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers is the actual title we’ve been over this.

I’ll be honest, I was making a joke but I could remember which was right 

It’s Infinity in the title page of the 1st edition?

[Moonlight]

My copy treats the Infinity part as a subtitle to “Red Dwarf” on both the spine and inside the book.

[Technopeasant]

I love the escape from the game in BTL.

I feel like everything you needed to know about BTL (the game) was already covered in Infinity frankly. The jokes are mostly repeats outside some of the Rimmer stuff.

[Moonlight]

I really like BTL now but I remember as a middle schooler reading it for the first time, being around the point of the sound wave jail break, and thinking I wish we were back on the ship.

[Warbodog]

The abridged tapes I grew up with seemed to keep most of the BTL stuff in both books, so that was a huge chunk of the story and did drag on for me, since I listened to many times. (They removed all of the Future Echoes, Me2, Polymorph and possibly Marooned bits, among other pruning).

Lister just randomly dies of what seems to be old age in BTL! Or maybe,

[tombow]

thinking about BTL I’m curious about where it fits into the history of sci fi where the heroes are put into a VR/illusion world of their personal fantasy and have to find the strength to escape – it’s happened to both Superman and Batman in classic stores (one by Alan Moore), Star Trek Generations, Neuromancer…Game of Thrones …

and it’s occurred to me now, that could be a possible flaw in Back To Reality, threatening it’s status as the best ep of all time – The Dwarfers don’t really do anything or figure anything out to help themselves. They just wait till Holly can get on the right frequency to snap them out of it.

[Warbodog]

[Doomitron]

I never got the hype for Back to Reality. Its a good episode, but I don’t think I’d have it in my top 10.

[Rushy]

There’s something interesting about the crew having to confront their worst nightmare version of themselves, or at least there would be if it went anywhere other than “gonna kms”

[Frank Smeghammer]

There’s something interesting about the crew having to confront their worst nightmare version of themselves, or at least there would be if it went anywhere other than “gonna kms”

Well…I mean that’s the premise of the episode. The whole squid thing falls down if they don’t try to top themselves. I’m sure I don’t have to explain this to you but it doesn’t work without that

[Dax101]

Well, yeah, it’s the suicide squid. The point is to make them feel at their most depressed so they don’t want to live anymore. I think what makes it stand out so much is that the story itself sets quite a high standard for science fiction. And it’s also funny. 

[Technopeasant]

The abridged tapes I grew up with seemed to keep most of the BTL stuff in both books, so that was a huge chunk of the story and did drag on for me, since I listened to many times. (They removed all of the Future Echoes, Me2, Polymorph and possibly Marooned bits, among other pruning).
Lister just randomly dies of what seems to be old age in BTL! Or maybe,

The implication seemed to be a heart attack from the shami kebab diablo. But yeah, the way that’s cut did help spur my total boredom with the BTL bits.

[Rushy]

There’s something interesting about the crew having to confront their worst nightmare version of themselves, or at least there would be if it went anywhere other than “gonna kms”

Well…I mean that’s the premise of the episode. The whole squid thing falls down if they don’t try to top themselves. I’m sure I don’t have to explain this to you but it doesn’t work without that

Yeah, I get the point, it’s just not a very interesting point. 

[Doomitron]

The highlight is the entire exchange between the Dwarfers and Peter Pettigrew for me, otherwise I’d put Holoship, Inquisitor (especially plot wise) and Quarantine over it (still a good episode anyway, 5 is my favorite series).

[Ben Saunders]

it’s happened to both Superman and Batman in classic stores (one by Alan Moore), Star Trek Generations, Neuromancer…Game of Thrones …

Mild spoilers for the Persona franchise I guess but Persona 5 Royal did the “characters have to break free from their personalised fantasy” thing pretty well also, as a more recent example.

[FutureEchoes]

Infinity will be getting fair low to middling ratings from people who tried it out and it wasn’t their thing. Less likely to happen with BTL due to it being a sequel and having a gross cover. 

I had a copy of Infinity, but only ever read BTL as part of the Omnibus, so didn’t have to endure the feet…

I’m so glad I’m not the only one repulsed by that gross foot cover. When I let it out to read (from a chaplaincy of all places), I had to keep it on my bedside table blurb side up so I wouldn’t be greeted by that lovely image every morning.

[clem]

Objectively I think Infinity is the best novel but I enjoy BTL at least as much. The bit with the sound waves and the Jitterman brothers and Rimmer in Trixie’s body goes on a little too long, but other than that all the stuff set in the game in both novels is top notch. I love how Lister and Rimmer have decided to stay in the game and doubled down on their fantasies at the beginning of BTL, the schmaltzy Bedford Falls Christmas scenes and Rimmer’s stag party. I do agree that BTL kinda lurches from one thing to the next though. It ends up feeling like an exercise in piling as much misery as possible onto Lister especially, but then that makes the ending all the sweeter.

[Warbodog]

sci fi where the heroes are put into a VR/illusion world of their personal fantasy and have to find the strength to escape

It seemed like The Twilight Zone did it often, but those characters would end up surrendering, going insane or unable to escape the fantasy and having an ironic fate.

[Flap Jack]

It’s Infinity in the title page of the 1st edition?

Yep.

Well, technically it says both Red Dwarf and IWCD on the title page, which does pivot into the “is it the title or is it the subtitle?” debate, but I don’t think it matters either way.

[Jonsmad]

To be perfectly honest I’m not especially gripped by the alternate reality angle

I felt a bit that way. Then I felt it was ok because if it wasn’t any good it didn’t harm anything in the main shows history. Then I remembered that the books are a seperate continuity. Then finally I listened this week to Rob Grant reading Backwards on the audio book. Which has really set me up well for this new book. Backwards in his voice really does write something I enjoy and recognise as Red Dwarf but also so much of its is an entirely different universe version of “Backwards/Dimension Jump / Bits of Justice.” By the end of that listen I felt Dwarf embraces alternate timelines and Dimensions so much, that this new branch is really just pa for the course. Im really ready for Rob’s next

and final branch of red dwarf as a whole. 

Over all im expectant of liking it as much as I like Colony, and a little bit more. Backwards has made me more excited that I like Rob solo stuff, and this having a unique helper should only aid more invention. I see it as another separate branch of the TV show alternate history rather than connected to previous novels. 

[Technopeasant]

I should probably clarify that my concern is less one of continuity than premise, e.g. it isn’t about Lister stuck in deep space as the last human alive.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I should probably clarify that my concern is less one of continuity than premise, e.g. it isn’t about Lister stuck in deep space as the last human alive.

Arguably the other books are almost much less like this than the TV show in lots of ways 

Yes the premise is Lister at al are stuck in deep space, but then various other events keep happening to break this status quo because ultimately “4 people in deep space” doesn’t make for interesting reading 

So you have events that lead to Better Than Life, then they’re stuck in a game for two years. Then then eventually break free and before the reader has had time to recover let alone the characters they’re thrown into a situation that  leads Lister being stuck in a planet alone for 30 years. This then immediately leads to his death and resurrection on a version of Earth we’re time is running backwards. 

I’m a great defender of “the premise of the show is 4 guys stuck in deep space”, particularly when criticising the breaking of that in VIII, but it is just a situation that launches the characters into various other situation each week. 

In the books, that status quo would be incredible tiresome to read so behind the second part of Infinity they have to find ways to break it over and over.

Last Human exists in an entirely populated universe with a society of GELFs, and a trading and penal system. Backwards is largely the gang trying to get back to Red Dwarf and getting into various troubles along the way. Perhaps things the most like the show than any of the books since the middle of Infinity in that regard. But it’s only at the very end when Lister has the sense of feeling of being “home” when he sees Red Dwarf that represents this bubble of safety he hasn’t experienced in 2 life times because he has been stuck in various other threatening situations that haven’t really got anything to do with being in deep space. 

The very final lines of that imply that even that is about to be pulled away from him yet again. 

Whilst the show should be about being stuck alone in deep space and all the troubles and adventures and character introspection that that brings, I believe the books offer a space to be able to explore another side of the characters and the universe they inhabit 

Any extended universe or alternative universe media is suited to this kind of thing particularly excuse it existed in addition and separate to the main media and timeline. 

Other than it being set pre-accident (at least in big chunks) I can’t see how these characters have an adventurous romp around Titan (and by the sounds of time, space, death and reality) will be much different than what is in much of the other books other than it might not have any material that’s been seen on TV before and be wholly new. 

[Dax101]

I don’t mind the idea of a prequel. In some way id prefer that to get other characters involved then maybe how modern Red Dwarf has done it where it wants to do the lonelyness angle but it also wants the crew to find living human characters to interact with. So lets just do both.

[Technopeasant]

Yes the premise is Lister at al are stuck in deep space, but then various other events keep happening to break this status quo because ultimately “4 people in deep space” doesn’t make for interesting reading 

Which again, is what I don’t especially care for in BTL. I will however agree with the general consensus that the pre-accident chapters in Infinity are great, which does bode well for Titan. Ultimately though I just like the setting of Red Dwarf itself and feel it’s enough. It’s essentially the divide between Series I-II and Series III onward all over again.

[Rushy]

Yes the premise is Lister at al are stuck in deep space, but then various other events keep happening to break this status quo because ultimately “4 people in deep space” doesn’t make for interesting reading. In the books, that status quo would be incredible tiresome to read

There’s an entire beautiful chapter about Rimmer mentally ranting about Lister’s snoring. The hell it’s tiresome. 

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Yes the premise is Lister at al are stuck in deep space, but then various other events keep happening to break this status quo because ultimately “4 people in deep space” doesn’t make for interesting reading. In the books, that status quo would be incredible tiresome to read

There’s an entire beautiful chapter about Rimmer mentally ranting about Lister’s snoring. The hell it’s tiresome. 

That’s a single chapter in 4 books. You can do it for a bit, and they do on the second half of Infinity. But I think if you had four books of series 1 style Red Dwarf and Rimmer getting annoyed at Lister for snoring or being slob, you would get bored. 

[Rushy]

But I think if you had four books of series 1 style Red Dwarf and Rimmer getting annoyed at Lister for snoring or being slob, you would get bored. 

Maybe. I just don’t like to spend half the bloody book in some weird surrealist landscape where all the jokes have about forty layers to them, and each chapter requires half a minute of figuring out where they are, what they’re doing, who they’re with and why. 

I don’t mind doing that in moderation, but for every few chapters like that, I would enjoy some larking about on the ship. And then do something else. That’s what worked so well about the show format. You’d have a Better than Life, and then you’d have a Thanks for the Memory. 

[Warbodog]

I will forever mourn the adaptation of Thanks for the Memory. I wish we could have an extended version with those chapters restored.

I trust they made the right decision, and that it’d be widely cited as one of the least necessary sections for the majority who’ve seen the episode, and probably too much weird mystery along with the future echoes and BTL, but would be great to read as deleted chapters.

I wonder if they added any Easter eggs linking it with other strands, like the future echo’s faded tattoo, and whether they removed callbacks from later sections. Maybe there’s an odd line we just ignore that would suddenly make sense.

[Author]

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