What do you prefer to Red Dwarf?

[Anonymous]

As heretic as it may be…we’re all Red Dwarf fans, but are there any comedies that you actually prefer?

I’ll start the ball rolling and say that I think Alan Partridge and the Office are better.

And Arrested Development.

*awaits stoning*

Topic

[Pete Part Three]

Hmm. Interesting. I guess I’m a big fan of Red Dwarf because of my history with the show, my early enthusiasm and the different aspects that the show offers. It’s more than just a sitcom which was really hit home last time I watched Back to Reality. I barely laughed (there are far funnier episodes) but it’s probably my favorite episode because it’s so damn clever.

That said, I find a few shows slightly funnier than Red Dwarf at its very best (2-V) but, quite rightly, they had their peaks and troughs as well: I’m Alan Partidge (Series 1), The Office (UK: 1,2), The Simpsons (4-6), Blackadder the Third.

Same sort of level: Peep Show (1-3), Fawlty Towers.

[Anonymous]

Oooh yes….The Simpsons. Of course. Blackadder? Hmm…I adore Goes Forth, never cared for the other series as much. They had the Richard Curtis smugness which grates with me.

It is indeed interesting why I hold Red Dwarf in such high regard. Certainly when I was younger I absolutely thought it was the funniest show in the world hands down. My tastes have changed and I can look back and think…yeah, some of it’s dated now. The style of comedy isn’t perhaps what I’d go for these days. Maybe I just like it for reasons of nostalgia?

But then I watch something like the courtroom scene in Justice and realise…it’s just incredibly bloody good. As a show overall I prefer other things, but Red Dwarf’s peaks are still probably my favourite examples of any TV comedy.

[Andrew]

> What do you prefer to Red Dwarf?

Fellatio.

> are there any comedies that you actually prefer?

Oh. Um…

Not comedies, I don’t think. Anything that fits the category also loses by virtue of never making hold of my brain the way that Dwarf has done. The best half-hour of Dwarf beats any other half-hour I can think of. (Including stuff I love, Like Joking Apart, Blackadder, How Do You Want Me, even Spaced.)

Overall SHOWS, though, I’d probably peg a four over it: The West Wing, Buffy, Cracker, G.B.H. and Brimstone and Treacle. For various sweep-me-off-my-feet reasons. Which isn’t critical, so much as visceral, and isn’t necessarily a fair fight.

[Ben Paddon]

I have a number of shows which I hold as dear to my heart as Red Dwarf. They’re all on equal footing so far as I’m concerned… I don’t prefer any one over the other.

One of these shows is Randall & Hopkirk (Deceased) – both the original and the remake. I suppose that’s two shows, really…

[Jonathan Capps]

> the Office are better.
> The Office (UK: 1,2),

*beats Jimbotfu and Pete repeatedly around their stupid faces*

I’ll probably agree that Arrested Development is funnier when it comes to sheer laughs, though.

[Tanya Jones]

>I have a number of shows which I hold as dear to my heart as Red Dwarf. They?re all on equal footing so far as I?m concerned? I don?t prefer any one over the other.

This. Attending TedFest confirmed this for me; both me and John found we loved TedFest and DJ about the same amount, for different reasons.

[Dave]

As far as sitcoms go, The League of Gentlemen, Spaced, Black Books, Futurama & Ted come the closest but none of them mean as much to me.

The only other shows that vie for the top spot in my affections are Buffy & Doctor Who

[Steve Harris]

Soley as a comedy series, Blackadder, HHGTTG & Reggie Perrin stand shoulder to shoulder with Dwarf in my mind. If it’s terms of overall enjoyment of a series, there are probably a few others as well. Frankly, I just cant choose an overall favourite..
Red Dwarf however has given me so much enjoyment since it ended, and continues to do so, with that in mind, nothing comes close.

Therefore I prefer nothing.

[penny]

I love Red Dwarf as much as …or more so as Have I Got News For You.

Comedies I like are Porridge, Open All Hours, Are You Being Served, Hitchiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, Blackadder, Black Books, Futurama, Simpsons, Dad’s Army, Father Ted, Not the Nine O’clock news, Morecambe and Wise Show, The Good Life…can’t think of any more, but when looking at the older ones to the newer ones there is a great difference in how the comedy is done…some for the best and some for the worst.

Oh and Buffy is awesome! I love to quote from Buffy and Angel.

[penny]

Andrew:
>> What do you prefer to Red Dwarf?

>Fellatio.

Err…what’s that!? :S

[Mr Flibble]

I really like Red Dwarf, but in recent years have come to love Futurama (late 3-4) better, Yes Minster, Fawlty Towers…

[peas_and_corn]

Simpsons. I grew up with it, and I’m living my adult life now with it.

[Dave]

>Err?what?s that!? :S

:@=

[mick]

Crime Traveller.

…what do you mean that wasn’t a comedy?!

[TheLeen]

I could list a handful of other shows I like. It happens that sometime, when I watch something, I think “Man, this has got to be my favourite show ever!” so that right then it would mean, moreso than Red Dwarf.

But the simple facts are that DJ is the only comedy convention I’ve ever been to (and would got to again) and no other show I’ve bought, or watched, or read, the amount of background information, secondary stuff and so on of.

I think documentary-obsession-wise, the only thing that comes close for me is the Lord of the Rings movies (ehehe). I think collecting-wise, nothing comes close at all.

So Dwarf is probably my favourite comedy after all.

[Anonymous]

It’s funny…although I might prefer other comedies, I wouldn’t join forums about them. Red Dwarf seems to hold a near obsessive fascination for me and always has. I might find other comedies funnier, but I don’t think I love any as much as Dwarf.

Apart from maybe “Come Back Mrs Noah”.

[Seb Patrick]

I think that seasons two to six of The Simpsons are without question the greatest comedy ever created. Nothing else is as clever, as sharp, as wide-ranging in its appeal, and as downright laugh-out-loud hilarious.

But while I can recite just about every episode from that era, and come up with a quotation to fit almost any situation in life, I can’t consider myself as much of a “fan” of the series, because the show as a whole now has almost half of its lifespan devoted to utter crap.

I think for me, anyway, the appeal of Dwarf is in seeing it as more than a sitcom; because there are other sitcoms that, purely as sitcoms, I probably see as better – Ted, Partridge, Blackadder and so on. But with Dwarf it’s about loving the show as a whole, for everything that it is, and everything around it – and probably the only other comedy show that comes close to that for me is Spaced. Even then, though, I’m simply not at a “fandom” type level with that or indeed anything else.

Comedy is my main preferred genre, so there aren’t really other TV shows that I’d be as big a fan of, either. The notable exception is Doctor Who, and that’s probably still the only show I get really excited about the prospect of new episodes of – although, to be fair, the only new episodes of Dwarf that there have been in my tenure of being the sort of person who’d get excited about new episodes have been crushing disappointments, so I don’t know how I’d feel if there was a new series now – probably just as excited, even though I’d know it might not be all that good.

So, yes. I know there are sitcoms that are better than Dwarf, I don’t think it’s the best sitcom ever made. But for me, it’s more than a sitcom anyway – and I don’t think there’s another show for which I have the same level of pure affection, or indeed associated baggage.

[Pete Part Three]

It’s an odd one. I think Buffy is a greater acomplishment and, probably, my favourite show but I know far more about Dwarf 1-VI than that. It’s probably because I first started watching it at a younger age and got extremely carried away as a result.

I don’t watch the show that much anymore (probably watched them way too much years ago). I blame G+T for stoking the flames of fandom. That Chicken (Mc)Nugget thread…tsk.

[Anonymous]

> and probably the only other comedy show that comes close to that for me is Spaced.

Ah yes, I was a member of a Spaced web-board for many years… though I’ve gone off the show somewhat recently. Just think it appealed to me hugely during a certain period of my life but it hasn’t date well.

Much like Eddie Izzard’s stuff. Odd that.

> the only new episodes of Dwarf that there have been in my tenure of being the sort of person who?d get excited about new episodes have been crushing disappointments,

When did ye start watching the show? I got on board in a major way towards the end of series 5 (though I had watched series 2 as a 6 year old!). Remember being massively blown away by series 6 on first viewing.

[Seb Patrick]

I started watching during IV, but it was really just another sitcom for me at that point. It was in the post-VI years that I think I became a “fan”, thanks to things like the Smeg Ups tapes, talking to people at school about it, reading the books, etc. So VII was the first series that actually felt like an “event” for me.

[John Hoare]

There are shows I think are better, although as has been said, that doesn’t neccessarily directly translate into a list of favourites – other factors come into play. And besides, I love so much comedy that there’s little point compiling a list and arbitarily placing Dwarf fifth…

It’s interesting the hold the show has had on us all, though. I think some of that is to do with the fact that once fandom is there and visible, then people are more likely to get more involved with a show – and I think the fact that there *is* a fandom for Dwarf as opposed to a lot of comedies is simply due to the SF connection. Fandom just happens more with SF shows – it’s just *expected*. I wish it was the same with comedy. But once a fandom is there, people get more involved.

But then, it’s not just that. Red Dwarf was the ONLY show (apart from Fawlty Towers, and that’s only twelve episodes) that I recorded every single one of, back in the 1994 repeat season. And that nine years before I got involved in Dwarf fandom. You certainly don’t want to underestimate the show itself!

I will say one thing, though – whilst Dwarf is one of my favourite sitcoms… there are a *lot* of comedies I’ve laughed at more. Hell, I’ve probably laughed out loud at The IT Crowd more than Dwarf. And that’s really odd, because if there’s one thing I get very bored of these days, it’s a comedy that doesn’t make me laugh. A wry smile isn’t usually enough for me.

However, I’ve put it down to the fact that I always watched Dwarf alone – and you always laugh more when you’re with someone. And I always watch comedy with someone these days. And I probably don’t laugh at Dwarf that much even whilst watching it with someone now because I’ve seen them so many times. If I was watching Dwarf fresh now, with someone, I’m sure I’d be laughing my hairy testicles off.

[Ben Paddon]

Pete’s stance on the Pension Crisis is perhaps a little cyptic…
I think Buffy is a greater acomplishment and, probably, my favourite show but I know far more about Dwarf 1-VI than that.

I recently picked up those swanky Collectors Edition Buffy/Angel box sets, because I realised I didn’t have any of either on DVD and I felt strangely empty and hollow as a result.

[pfm]

I always seem to return to Dwarf because there’s more than just the comedy there. I’m not sure I prefer Ted or Partridge, or Seinfeld even, which is one of my favourite shows even though it isn’t that funny really compared with those, I mainly like the way it’s made.

The Simpsons…yeah I agree, around 3, 4, 5 & 6 it’s untouchable, but I just don’t hold the show in as high a regard as I do others. The fact that it’s been crap for years adds to that, I suppose.

As for The Office, I love the original series a great deal. It contains what I reckon are some of the greatest episodes of TV ever made, including the staff training episode, the quiz episode…this was the first episode I saw and at the end, when Tim is left standing outside, I remember thinking ‘wtf is this? it’s fucking brilliant, is it real or not??’ I genuinely didn’t know at that stage. Whenever I see a clip of it I just want to watch the whole 2 series’ and specials through again.

The American version is excellent too, probably funnier. I was crying laughing at the moment when Michael is going to kiss the gay guy in front of all the staff just to prove how ‘tolerant’ he is. Steve Carrell is pure genius in this.

[penny]

>>Err?what?s that!? :S

> :@=

I still don’t get it!? … I’ll google….OH! A blowjob!

[peas_and_corn]

>I started watching during IV, but it was really just another sitcom for me at that point. It was in the post-VI years that I think I became a ?fan?, thanks to things like the Smeg Ups tapes, talking to people at school about it, reading the books, etc. So VII was the first series that actually felt like an ?event? for me.

For me that was series 8

>The Simpsons?yeah I agree, around 3, 4, 5 & 6 it?s untouchable, but I just don?t hold the show in as high a regard as I do others. The fact that it?s been crap for years adds to that, I suppose.

1&2 have awesome stuff, seasons 11-14 are meh (adapting to a new team of writers/producers) BUT 16-18 have some absolute gold.

[Seb Patrick]

The first new Simpsons I’ve seen since about season 14 was “Husbands and Knives” from the latest season. The first five minutes or so, with the comic book stuff (and Moore/Spiegelman/Clowes), were absolutely brilliant, and had me thinking “Wow! The Simpsons knows how to be funny again! Admittedly by narrowing its appeal and making loads of geeky comics-related injokes, but still! Yay!”

And then the remaining quarter of an hour, once the plot had shifted to something completely unrelated, was without doubt the worst episode I have ever seen. It made me die a little inside.

(also, people always say the golden era starts with 3. Not true. Season two has a mixture of episodes – half that were produced in the “season one” style (which I still like, but I’ll admit isn’t as good), but half in a similar style to season three. Take Simpson & Delilah – how can you NOT admit that’s one of the best ever eps?)

[peas_and_corn]

“Revenge is a Dish Best Served Three Times” is made in a very ‘classic’ manner, “Springfield Up” is gold all the way through, same with “Yokel Chords”, “Homerazzi”, “My Fair Laddy” is a great Willie episode and he deserves more… and so on.

There are episodes that do have a great start and don’t deliver, as you said, and others with ludicrously complex stories (when Homer became a fireman? waaaay too complex). However, it’s still better than Family Guy.

[Arlene Rimmer BSc SSc]

> …However, it?s still better than Family Guy.

I must respectfully disagree. I think when Family Guy‘s good, it’s pretty watchable–nowhere near the level of The Simpsons at its best, but hardly as horrible as people say it is. But when it’s bad–like “Meg getting sold to the Goldmans” bad–ugh.

That said, I find bad Simpsons more frustrating than bad Family Guy, because the former has been so excellent in the past.

[Pete Part Three]

>Family Guy

Bleurgh.

[Ridley]

The first five minutes or so, with the comic book stuff (and Moore/Spiegelman/Clowes), were absolutely brilliant, and had me thinking ?Wow! The Simpsons knows how to be funny again! Admittedly by narrowing its appeal and making loads of geeky comics-related injokes, but still! Yay!?

Everything before “Maus is in the Haus!”, right? ;)

I liked bits of ‘Midnight Towboy’ but The Simpsons just hasn’t been the same since it became The Homer Show and did things that would usually be reserved for the Treehouse of Horror. Kicks in around Season 10.
The movie was watchable but it was three ‘classic’ episodes put together for the most part. eg Large breasted Inuit woman = Coyote spirit guide. (Though I did think Russ Cargill should have been Hank Scorpio since Brooks was using the same voice.)

But no, I don’t prefer any comedy over Red Dwarf.

[Anonymous]

I swing between loving Family Guy and hating it.

The fantastic episode of South Park about Family Guy pretty much sums up its weaknesses.

Oh, how I love South Park. Consistently underrated. Since about Series 5 it’s been nothing short of genius. Best animated show, IMO.

[Ridley]

Even Million Little Fibers?

South Park did the 24 parody better than the Simpsons too. And ‘Up the Down Steroid’ was done better than The Ringer it supposedly ripped off.

Rob Schneider derp de derp.

[Pete Part Three]

Agreed. It occasionally veers off track and there are a few stinkers in each season, but since it’s all more or less written by Trey Parker it’s quite an achievement.

New season starts next week. Yay.

[Andrew]

> but since it?s all more or less written by Trey Parker it?s quite an achievement.

There are ‘staff writers’ credited every week, though – I doubt they’re only chucking in one joke a week each. Still, great show, main writerly voice; it’s all good.

I adore Family Guy, though. For all the digs at it, many of which are fair enough, it can put me into absolute hysterics. Yes it’s often woeful in terms of storytelling, but the commitment to gags and the neat characterisations work a treat. Make me laugh; I’ll get substance from South Park and heart from The Simspsons. The shows don’t need to compete.

[Anonymous]

It is indeed difficult to choose.

I haven’t been this confused since that time Peter played Boggle with Starsky and Hutch.

*flashback*

That was a fun time. I think I hadn’t had that much fun since Brian was stuck on the Titanic with Steve Guttenberg

*flashback*

That was a dangerous situation. I don’t think I’d been that scared since Meg shared a cell with Charles Manson

*flashback*

That was a weird time. I don’t things had been that strange since the time Peter grew a head out of his butt.

*flashback*

That was disgusting. I don’t think I’d been that disgusted since last time Peter broke wind to the theme-tune of MASH.

*flashback*

That smelled so bad. I don’t think anything smelled that bad since the time Quagmire dated a dead hooker for six months.

*flashback*

[Pete Part Three]

Well, exactly.

[Andrew]

How is it any worse than Blackadder’s “Madder than Mad Jack McMad” joke form? Sure, it’s been overused in more recent series, but it’s not the only thing in the show.

> It is indeed difficult to choose.

Again I say – why does anyone have to choose?

[Anonymous]

> How is it any worse than Blackadder?s ?Madder than Mad Jack McMad? joke form?

Cos it continually interrupts the narrative. Cutting away is more intrusive and apparent and unconnected to what’s going on. Some episodes it just seems like it’s practically the only joke form used or is used so often and it’s so formulaic that it stands out as lazy writing.

> Again I say – why does anyone have to choose?

BECAUSE YOU MUST.

There must be lists and charts and clear preferences. On colour-coded spreadsheets. Otherwise there would be anarchy.

[John Hoare]

I adore Family Guy, though. For all the digs at it, many of which are fair enough, it can put me into absolute hysterics. Yes it?s often woeful in terms of storytelling, but the commitment to gags and the neat characterisations work a treat. Make me laugh; I?ll get substance from South Park and heart from The Simspsons. The shows don?t need to compete.

YES. A lot of hardcore animation fans hate it too, because of the quality of the animation, which is a fair point… but dammit, it just makes me laugh too much.

(Although I haven’t seen any since it came back. Must catch up. I have heard from people who used to love it that it’s gone downhill.)

I’m one of those odd people who doesn’t quite get The Simpsons, though. I can see objectively it’s great and ground-breaking and all that, and it does make me laugh when it’s on… but I just don’t have very much affection for it, like I do with my favourite comedies. Which is strange, because I love Futurama to bits. (In fact, Futurama is dangerously close to being top of my mythical list of favourite shows ever.)

Maybe I should buy the DVD boxsets and force myself to watch them until I FUCKING GET IT.

[Andrew]

> Cos it continually interrupts the narrative

So do some jokes, though. When a sitcom goes into a tangental riff, the plot stops to do some laughs. When a movie kicks off an action sequence, or a musical begins a song, the plot slows (or even stops) to accommodate. It’s not like we’re not built to deal with it.

As I say, they took it too far recently (every show goes through patches like that) but it’s miles from being the only joke of the show – the affection that’s grown up about Brian and Stewie couldn’t have happened if the characters only ever got used to cypher non-sequiturs.

I assume those who dislike Family Guy also don’t care for American Dad? Which doesn’t use the cutaway as part of its regular set-up.

[Pete Part Three]

Yes.

1. Buy Simpsons Boxset
2. Repeat, until Homer gets raped by a panda.
3. Join campaign for show to be put out of its misery once and for all.

And Family Guy (apologies for cruddy link but couldn’t find this on YouTube)

http://profile.imeem.com/vi-IS2/video/SYOwqIe7/family_guy_family_guy_ferris_bueller_animation_video/

How does that even qualify as a spoof? It’s just a complete copy, like much of Family Guy’s ‘spoofs’.

[Anonymous]

I actually prefer American Dad to Family Guy, purely because of the lack of flashbacks.

[Anonymous]

> When a movie kicks off an action sequence, or a musical begins a song, the plot slows (or even stops) to accommodate. It?s not like we?re not built to deal with it.

Have to disagree. Of course, this can be the case…but often with an action film, the chase is very much the culmination of the plot and with lead characters in immediate and mortal danger, it’s not slowing the narrative built around it. It fits in. Similarly, musical numbers are often integral to the plot or characterisation.

It’s not quite the same as repeatedly cutting to a non-sequiter event which is entirely unrelated to anything in the rest of the show and simply exists as an interchangeable cut-and-paste gag.

[Andrew]

> How does that even qualify as a spoof? It?s just a complete copy, like much of Family Guy?s ?spoofs?.

Not sure what the problem is with that!

The criteria “This doesn’t change the original enough to be classed as a spoof” seems a bit bizarre to me. It takes a recognisable sequence, then tags it with an undercut gag. That’s pretty normal parody behavior, isn’t it?

That said, I’m not sure labeling something as ‘spoof’ – as opposed to ‘reference’ – is entirely fair. After all, the joy is in the recognition – the chuckle of the familiar is one of the key things about FG. People who don’t get the ref get a neat Stewie sequence, those that do get a warm glow of being ‘in’ on the joke.

[Phil]

>I assume those who dislike Family Guy also don?t care for American Dad?

Wrong assumption. American Dad easily and quickly became one of my favorite animated programs, whereas Family Guy has yet to satisfy me.

Does it make me laugh? Sure. But so does American Dad, which also raises very interesting issues and handles them in clever, often unnerving ways. Also: character development, plot, etc.

[Phil]

Also: American Dad inherited some of the writers who were left workless after Futurama. I’m sure that helps give it the edge–but it’s something I didn’t even know until a few weeks ago, so it wasn’t a conscious deciding factor for me.

That said, it does explain a lot.

[Pete Part Three]

For me, a spoof should take something that’s relatively serious and take the piss. It shouldn’t involve lifting an entire comedic sequence wholesale and then add a weak gag at the end.

Maybe it wouldn’t be so bad if the sequence didn’t go on quite so long, but it’s about a minute of the same material poached from another comedy followed by a rather limp punchline.

And don’t get me started on this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFuj2Ir-10M&feature=related

Is Family Guy written by advertising execs?*

* Rhetorical question. I know it’s written by manatees.

[John Hoare]

And don?t get me started on this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFuj2Ir-10M&feature=related

That’s a lovely, clever bit of animation. I love Chris’s expressions especially.

[Pete Part Three]

It was a lovely, clever bit of animation in 1985 too.

[John Hoare]

Of course – it’s one of my favourite music videos. But that doesn’t stop a nice pastiche – as I would call it – being a lot of fun too.

The kind of reference I have a problem with is overquoted stuff in some shows/films – the amount of time I’ve heard riffs on “You damn dirty ape” is ridiculous, and beyond tedious by now. I think that’s incredibly lazy. But a lovingly created pastiche of something beautiful like that, which hasn’t been endlessly done? I’m all for it.

[Author]

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