High & Low: Popular Misconceptions Features Posted by Ian Symes on 1st April 2015, 00:33 In a change to your advertised schedule, this month’s High & Low is an attempt to ebb the increasing tide of ill-informed nonsense currently swamping the internet, masquerading as Red Dwarf discussion. We’re tackling ten of the biggest popular misconceptions about Red Dwarf, and taking the opportunity to thoroughly debunk them once and for all. On the other hand, for the ‘Low’ section, we’ll be celebrating all those supposed “myths” that turned out to actually be true. So settle in and prepare to have your preconceptions challenged and your minds blown… 10. Ainsley Harriott played a GELF It’s easy to see why so many people fell for this one, and on the surface it’s hard to dispute. It all stems from the popular television chef’s appearance on Red Dwarf Night‘s Can’t Smeg Won’t Smeg segment in 1998. Harriott mentions during his introduction that he appeared as a GELF in the Series VI episode Emohawk: Polymorph II, and we see a clip of this supposed cameo. Prior to the broadcast, the “fact” was printed in the Radio Times (w/c 14th February 1998) as publicity for the show, adding further credence to the myth. But wait a minute – has nobody thought to question this assertion, considering that you can’t even see the actor’s face in the footage? It was all made up as publicity for Can’t Smeg Won’t Smeg. The GELF Chief was actually played by the Newcastle-based actor and musician Jimmy Nail. Nail himself distanced himself from the role, as he didn’t wish to be typecast as a genetically engineered life form, allowing pathological liar Ainsley Harriott to bask in the reflected glory. The BBC played their part, withdrawing the original VHS release and editing the closing credits of Emohawk for all subsequent repeats and DVD releases. Those of us who recorded the original broadcast of Series VI off-air are the only ones to know the truth. 9. Red Dwarf was based on Dave Hollins: Space Cadet Again, this one’s an easy mistake to make, but it’s a case of adding two and two together and coming up with six. It’s no secret that the notoriously work-shy Grant Naylor plundered their radio series Son of Cliché for ideas when putting together their magnum opus, and at first glance it looks like Dave Hollins was the likely inspiration. After all, it concerns a man called Dave stranded alone in deep space, with only a talking computer for company. Change the surname, add a couple of extra characters and you’ve got Red Dwarf, right? Wrong. The above similarities are merely a coincidence, and it was actually the Freshers series of sketches that Rob and Doug developed into the show we know today. On the radio, Nick (Nick Wilton) and Timmy (Chris Barrie) were two students in their first week at university, coping with exams, lack of money and lack of interest from girls. For the TV, the university was changed to a spaceship, Nick and Timmy were renamed Lister and Rimmer, the lack of interest from girls was changed to the extinction of the human race, the exams were largely confined to the early episodes, and the lack of money was changed into The Cat. Need further proof? Look again at Chris Barrie’s character’s name. The middle three letters are “imm”, just like the second, third and fourth letters in “Rimmer”. 8. David Ross was too busy to play Kryten full time The guest character of Kryten was a huge success in the Series 2 episode of the same name, and it was no surprise when the ever-derivative writing combo Grant Naylor brought him back full time for Series III. Many were expecting veteran comedy actor David Ross to reprise the role that he’d played so well, but alas this was not to be, as Ross was scheduled to perform in A Flea in Her Ear at the Old Vic at the same time that Series III was recorded. Or so we thought for 24 years, until a 2013 interview with WhatCulture, in which Ross revealed that he’d made the whole thing up out of professional courtesy. There was no such play – to date, nobody has been able to find actual evidence that this supposed production took place. In fact, David Ross was completely available to join the Red Dwarf cast – he just simply didn’t want to do it. He hated his experience on Series 2, due to what he perceived of a lack of “legitimacy” within the production. He also demanded to be paid twice as much as existing cast members Chris Barrie and Craig Charles, which penny-pinching comedy duo Grant Naylor naturally baulked at. 7. Nobody claims responsibility for the added skutter in Re-Mastered In one of the most notorious changes to the Re-Mastered series, a comically woeful-looking skutter is pasted across the vending machine scene in The End, distracting the viewer from the funny dialogue and looking completely out of place. While the Re-Dwarf documentary on The Bodysnatcher Collection cleared up one common myth – it was a real skutter chroma-keyed in, not CGI – it created a mystery of its own: who put it there in the first place? Between them, Doug Naylor, Ed Bye, Chris Veale and Mark Wybourne couldn’t come up with an explanation, as nobody can remember the shoot or the edit taking place. But the mystery was finally solved just last year, when the popular Geordie actor and musician Jimmy Nail confessed all in an interview with WhatCulture: I was working on the second series of Crocodile Shoes at the time, and me and a couple of the gadgees had been oot on the toon supping a few Broon Ales, like. We found worselves hanging aroond Shepperton Studios, and we noticed there was an open window to the Red Dwarf offices. So I had this canny idea for a great bit of craic, and I sneak in and grab this like robot arm thing, and I filmed it against this big blue bastard of a screen. Then I found the edit suite and pasted it in, in the worst place I could think of. Then I did a shit in one of the bins and fucked back off oot. Canny craic, like. Canny craic. 6. The opening of Backwards explains what happens between series As we all know, there were a huge amount of changes when the show returned for its third series in 1989 – new cast members, new sets, and the cliffhanger to Series 2 being unceremoniously dumped. Unsurprisingly, the lazy and miserly Grant Naylor refused to write the inevitably expensive episode necessary to explain these changes, so Backwards opened with a comically fast Star Wars style scroll, which viewers naturally assumed contained the salient information. But there’s no such information in there. People assume there is, but nobody’s actually checked. After all, the technology required to slow the footage down sufficiently was in its infancy in the late eighties. But, for the first time, Ganymede & Titan can exclusively reveal what the text actually says, thanks to us bothering to freeze-frame the DVD, eleven years after it came out: RED DWARF III THE SAGA CONTINUUMS THE STORY SO FAR… Three million years in the future, Dave Lister, the last human being alive discovers he is pregnant after a liaison with his female self in a parallel universe. But, frankly, we’ve got no idea how to get out of that one. We’d written ourselves into a bit of a hole at the end of that episode, and it was the only thing we could think of to provide any sort of punchline. We’re sorry, and we promise that we’ll never do a cliffhanger and leave it unresolved ever again. Shortly afterwards, something happened to Kryten, and he’s Robert Llewellyn now. I can’t believe people are lapping up that fucking Old Vic story about that snobby prick David Ross. We should never have hired him in the first place. “Legit” my arse. Anyway, we got lucky with Robert, saved a few quid. Meanwhile, Norman Lovett can fuck off as well. He bases his new face on Hilly, a female computer with whom he’d once fallen madly in love. And now the saga continuums AND NOW THE SAGA CONTINUUMS… RED DWARF III THE SAME GENERATION – NEARLY – 5. Hattie Hayridge left the show because Holly was hard to write for And speaking of the new cast for Series III, Hattie Hayridge turned out to be a more than adequate replacement for the departing Norman Lovett, making the character of Holly her own. But by the end of Series V, Kryten had also stepped up a gear, and the mechanoid was taking screen time and plot relevance away from the computer. When Hattie departed from the show ahead of Series VI, we were told that it was an agonising and regrettable decision, but unavoidable, as there simply wasn’t enough for Holly to do. This is bollocks. For once, the over-rated authors Grant Naylor had plenty of fresh ideas for Holly, but they just didn’t want to work with Hattie any more. Her ego was reportedly out of control throughout Series V; she allegedly punched Hilary Bevan-Jones in the face for failing to provide a hot meal at the end of the recording of Quarantine. She lead a campaign of bullying and intimidation against her co-stars, believing them to be “sub-human wastrels, not fit to lick her boots”, according to WhatCulture. Ahead of Series VI, she demanded her pay to be trebled in order for her to continue – this was the last straw for the Scrooge-like comedy duo Grant Naylor. 4. Bodysnatcher was dropped from Series 1 Ah, Bodysnatcher. The mythical “lost” episode of Series 1 – it was rehearsed before the production was postponed due to a technicians’ strike, dropped from the roster and replaced with Me². Once thought lost forever, it eventually saw the light of day as the centrepiece of the glorious Bodysnatcher Collection box-set. The script was polished, storyboards drawn up, and the whole thing was performed with aplomb by Chris Barrie. This is all a lie. There was no lost episode. The entire thing was made up by money-grabbing comedy charlatans Grant Naylor, in order to boost sales of the Re-Mastered DVD. Once they’d come up with the backstory, they churned out the script in their typical slap-dash style over the course of a drunken afternoon, then sat back and waited for the cash to roll in. Ironically, the cost of locating every existing copy of Son of Soup and Six of the Best, breaking into people’s houses under the cover of darkness, and replacing all copies with edited versions containing references to this “lost script”, proved to far exceed the profits from the ill-fated boxset. 3. Starbug was a miniature Bit of a cheat this one – okay, the Visual Effects Team did use a series of miniatures for the vast majority of the required Starbug footage throughout the series. But when it came to creating the crash sequence in Dimension Jump, they were forced to come up with something much more creative. Penny-pinching producers Grant Naylor saw the opportunity to save some money by negating the need to build a miniature sea scape in the effects studio, instead electing to use a real location in nearby Cornwall. Therefore, Peter Wragg and his team built a giant, full-sized Starbug, at 1:1 scale. The shoot was a huge success, but sadly the prop could never be re-used, after it emerged that Alan “Rocky” Marshall had built the entire thing out of deadly asbestos. For health and safety reasons, the craft was buried in the back-lot of Shepperton Studios, where it remains undisturbed to this day. Some say that on a quiet night, you can still hear the boosters… 2. Craig and Danny are the only actors to appear in every episode Ah ha, you thought this was going to be a reveal that either Craig or Danny didn’t appear in one of the sixty-one episodes that we all thought they did. But no. That would be silly. You can see their faces and everything. No, there’s no disputing that Craig and Danny are in every episode ever, it’s just that they’re not the only ones. Cheeky northern actor and musician Jimmy Nail can make that claim too – you’ve just got to know where to look. Some of Nail’s many cameos are obvious – such as Commander Binks in Holoship, Katarina in the Back To Earth trilogy, and “Naughty” Bob Entwistle in Tikka To Ride. But did you know that he was also in attendance at McIntyre’s funeral in The End? Or that he portrayed one of the planets in White Hole? He even donned heavy prosthetics to pass himself off as Rimmer throughout Series III, IV and some of X. But his most famous role is that of “Joseph C” in the 1988 adventure The Happiness Patrol. Classic Jimmy. The full list of Nail’s numerous Red Dwarf appearances can be found on WhatCulture. 1. Robert Llewellyn wears a mask to play Kryten This is the single most common mistake we see people make about Red Dwarf, and it’s all so easily avoidable. Like all good urban legends, it’s based on reality, but the details are all wrong. David Ross did indeed wear a mask when he played Kryten in Series 2, but from Series III onwards, what you see on screen is Robert Llewellyn’s actual face. Llewellyn was involved in a freak hang-gliding accident as a teenager. Eight people perished, but Robert survived, albeit with a severe facial disfigurement. By sheer coincidence, his abnormalities matched the prosthetics worn by David Ross almost exactly, and the tight-fisted comedy partnership Grant Naylor saw this as a fantastic cost-cutting opportunity. Llewellyn was promptly hired, and the rest is history. Unfortunately for the super-scrimping twosome, Robert’s unique appearance created the necessity for an expensive, realistic-looking human face mask to be created for Llewellyn’s role as Jim Reaper in The Last Day. The freakish actor subsequently stole the mask after filming had been completed, and continues to wear it for all public appearances to this day. The steady degradation of the once firm and wrinkle-free skin can be put down to the cheap materials used to make it, at the request of unknown individuals within the production. We hope that little lot has set you right on a few things, and that you’ll think twice before continuing to spread these falsehoods in the future. Let’s end this little fact-finding mission by looking at the other side of the coin – those handful of popular myths about the series that it turns out are true after all… 5. Red Dwarf is something you grow out of At first glance, it’s reasonable to come to the conclusion that Red Dwarf‘s universal themes of loneliness, class struggle and hope vs despair make it appealing and relevant to viewers of all ages, and that the only people who claim to have “grown out of Red Dwarf” are deluded wankers who hate who they were as a teenager and thus reject all the trappings of that time of their lives. But research has shown that due to vestigial DNA dating back to the time when man lived in trees, the human brain has evolved to shut off all receptors for good comedy at the age of 20. All those who claim to still like the show after this point are missing this essential gene, and can therefore be considered sub-normal freaks, free to be dismissed by sneering broadsheet journalists with stupid white streaks in their stupid hair. 4. Red Dwarf used canned laughter Canned laughter is, always has been and always will be extensively used in television comedy. Red Dwarf is a rare exception, in that it went to the trouble of using a real studio audience to provide the laughs that would normally be pre-recorded – an unexpected luxury, considering Grant Naylor’s vice-like grip on the show’s purse strings. But that’s only the case in the Shepperton years – back in Manchester, live studio audiences were impossible, due to the overwhelming arrogance of all Mancunians. Sure, Tony Hawks was employed as an “audience warm-up man”, but that’s just old terminology for a now-defunct television role – digital sound recordings do not require the same “warming up” process as analogue tapes. Hawks left the BBC at around the same time as they switched to MiniDiscs, and subsequently retrained as a freelance panel show guest. 3. The special effects in the early series were crap We’ve been lying to ourselves for years. We’ve concocted these notions that an insanely talented team of dedicated and brilliant visual effects artists, model makers, set designers and camera crews created beautiful works of art that far exceeded a standard that you’d reasonably expect with a sit-com budget and schedule. But, let’s face it – it’s actually a load of shit. The spaceships don’t look real, the sets wobble and there simply aren’t enough twinkling lights in the background. The move to CGI couldn’t have come soon enough. 2. Rob did the comedy, Doug did the sci-fi Some people say that this is merely a trite over-simplification of two complex creative genuises, who are both capable of excelling in whatever genre they choose to write in, but who sometimes tailor their work for specific audiences or creative goals. Nonsense – it’s all true. You’ve only got to look at the solo output to see which elements each of them brought to the partnership. Take Rob’s sit-com Dark Ages, or his novel Colony – both works of comedic art that contain more laugh-out-loud moments than all of Doug’s stuff put together. And the one constant problem with the Doug Naylor era of Red Dwarf is that it always gets bogged down in heavy sci-fi concepts, such as dinosaurs shitting everywhere, racist vending machines and prison rape. Why does it always have to be so bloody serious? 1. Rimmer and Lister are gay for each other That scene in Blue wasn’t simply a one-off gag – it was the culmination of a narrative arc that had been hidden in the subtext of every episode from day one. Red Dwarf is the world’s most unconventional love story, with its two star-crossed lovers expressing their deepest feelings via the medium of arguing, bickering, fighting monsters (real subtle, guys), lusting after women, outright hating each other, and generally displaying no signs of romantic affection or repressed homosexuality whatsoever. Some skeptics will claim that there’s no absolutely no evidence of the Lister/Rimmer relationship in any episode of the show, or that they’ve spoken to Doug Naylor about it and that he laughed at the suggestion. But there’s only one real reason for anyone to deny the truth – they’re all deeply, deeply homophobic. Right, now that that’s settled, High & Low will return later this month, when – as promised – Ian Symes will determine the top ten and bottom five Holly scenes, instead of pissing about doing shit like this instead. UPDATE: Joke. Barely even deadpan mode. The bit about Doug dismissing the concept that Lister and Rimmer are gay is true, though.
Your pulling my leg! I find the hang glider one the most unbelievable!! Now let Go of it. I fell for it April fools but not here it’s still 3/31
Nothing like the monthly reminder of what a barnacle slash fans are on the otherwise spotless, non-crazy hull of this fandom. ;-)
Ah, April 1st. The single day of the year that you can be sure that a new G&T article will *definitely* appear.
Regarding the last entry: The thing is, I don’t actually give a shit about the existence of slash fiction, or people having alternative interpretations of characters, no matter how obviously wrong they might be. I would ignore that community’s existence entirely were it not for the subset that claim that everyone who disagrees is homophobic. The last sentence of that paragraph is supposed to be an over-exaggerated parody, but lo and behold…
WhatCulture has an article about GELF zones. It’s seven clicks away. A comment so good, it very nearly justifies the adding of a ‘Like’ button to the site.
Just to continue a bit of cross-platform bickering, in response to this (I don’t have a personal Tumblr, so can’t respond there): I really wouldn’t pay much attention to the ordering of the list – it’s a spoof article, and the order was largely based on making sure the Jimmy Nail references were evenly spread out. Slash isn’t the most ridiculous thing about Red Dwarf or Red Dwarf fandom… but it is the thing that’s easiest to find a picture/gif to go with it. That’s why it’s at the end of its section. I get that you’re offended, and that honestly wasn’t my intention – well, OK, I knew that I was winding people up, but causing offence by being discriminatory wasn’t intended. I genuinely can’t see any part of my post that can be construed as homophobic, and to be honest, the repeated accusation of homophobia is more offensive than anything I wrote. Like I said before, I don’t have a problem with slash. I don’t think there’s a right or wrong way to enjoy Red Dwarf – I’m just glad that people enjoy it. Not every aspect of fandom appeals to everyone – slash isn’t my cup of tea, but neither is, for example, cosplaying, RPGing, fan fiction in general or Gazpacho Soup. I’ve taken the piss out of all of these things, but I try not to make judgments on the people who take part. Conversely, several members of the slash community do make judgments on people from outside their group. It’s the hypocrisy that I don’t like. In real life, I don’t believe that sexuality is as clear cut as “gay”, “straight” and “bi” – these are societal constructs, and each individual falls somewhere on a sliding scale. Anyone can fall in love with anyone, and anyone can want to shag anyone. Also, I once kissed a man on national TV, and once allowed Rylan Clark to do this to me. I couldn’t be less scared of the gays if I tried.
Slash is not my thing, but hey, whatever floats your boat, each to their own… etc, etc. Fandom is a varied and wonderful thing, it can be whatever you want it to be! The problem that I have with a certain section of slash is this attitude: I have decided that Lister and Rimmer are gay and if you disagree then it’s because you’re homophobic, not because people are allowed to have differing opinions on things. What exactly is homophobic about saying, “I don’t think Lister and Rimmer are gay”? What the actual fuck is that about? I can’t fathom the logic behind that at all. If you make ridiculous and offensive statements like that, then yes, you’re quite rightly going to be ridiculed. Do you actually understand how offensive you’re being throwing around accusations like that with absolutely no justification whatsoever? Oh and lolz… “Boys Club”? *wave* And for the record: I don’t think Lister and Rimmer fancy each other, not at all, not even a little, I just don’t see it… but if you do and you enjoy writing about it and discussing it with like-minded individuals, then awesome :) Have fun! You see things one way, I see them differently, neither is wrong or bad, they’re just different. If everyone thought the same way, the world would be a dull place.
Just to continue a bit of cross-platform bickering, in response to this (I don’t have a personal Tumblr, so can’t respond there): I really wouldn’t pay much attention to the ordering of the list – it’s a spoof article, and the order was largely based on making sure the Jimmy Nail references were evenly spread out. Slash isn’t the most ridiculous thing about Red Dwarf or Red Dwarf fandom… but it is the thing that’s easiest to find a picture/gif to go with it. That’s why it’s at the end of its section. I get that you’re offended, and that honestly wasn’t my intention – well, OK, I knew that I was winding people up, but causing offence by being discriminatory wasn’t intended. I genuinely can’t see any part of my post that can be construed as homophobic, and to be honest, the repeated accusation of homophobia is more offensive than anything I wrote. Like I said before, I don’t have a problem with slash. I don’t think there’s a right or wrong way to enjoy Red Dwarf – I’m just glad that people enjoy it. Not every aspect of fandom appeals to everyone – slash isn’t my cup of tea, but neither is, for example, cosplaying, RPGing, fan fiction in general or Gazpacho Soup. I’ve taken the piss out of all of these things, but I try not to make judgments on the people who take part. Conversely, several members of the slash community do make judgments on people from outside their group. It’s the hypocrisy that I don’t like. In real life, I don’t believe that sexuality is as clear cut as “gay”, “straight” and “bi” – these are societal constructs, and each individual falls somewhere on a sliding scale. Anyone can fall in love with anyone, and anyone can want to shag anyone. Also, I once kissed a man on national TV, and once allowed Rylan Clark to do this to me. I couldn’t be less scared of the gays if I tried. Hello there, I’m Val and I’m a part of the slash fandom. I just decided to join in here so I could respond face-to-face (as it were), rather than the blind back-and-forth that’s been going on between unconnected websites. I don’t think any of us were “offended” by the article, that’s probably a bit of a strong word to use. But being a part of a subset of the Red Dwarf fandom that is mostly ignored, sometimes mocked, it doesn’t feel fantastic to be the butt of a joke. But when does anyone feel fantastic about being the butt of a joke? Miffed is probably a better word for what we felt. We get that slash isn’t for everyone, we get that it’s “our” thing. I think all that we would like, is to be able to do our thing, without feeling like other people are mocking it. We know we’re the weird kids at the playground, which is saying a lot for a show whose fans are probably already mostly kids who are already the weird kids at the playground. I suppose that makes us the weird-weird kids at the playground. In short, I think we probably feel like we’re an easy target, so maybe we are a bit sensitive. I believe you 100% when you say that you’re not a homophobic person, and that you have no problem with gay people, and that is awesome. High-fives all around! This aspect of your personality however, did not come across in your original post. To an outside reader who knows nothing of your views on homosexuality, the post did come across as slightly homophobic, in the sense that you seemed to be quite-strongly implying that anyone who even considered that Lister & Rimmer might be gay, were very silly indeed. In a perfect world, where there is nothing wrong with being gay, why would it be so silly? Television and films are filled with heterosexual couples who hate one another until they realize they’re actually totally in love. Why then, is it so ridiculous to suggest that Lister & Rimmer could be in the same situation? If it’s not for the fact that they’re two men, then why else? I’m genuinely curious. I hope this isn’t coming across as inflammatory, because I’m just meaning to open up some meaningful discussion, but so much of intent can be lost through text only communication.
I appreciate all of this, and can empathise about the feeling of being mocked. However, the point of the gag was less to do with the concept of Rimmer and Lister being gay, and more to do with the extreme responses that always seems to ensue whenever it’s discussed. As far as that’s concerned, I rest my case. Thanks for signing up and sticking your head above the parapet. In response to the topic at hand, my interpretation is that Rimmer and Lister do develop strong feelings for each other over the course of the series, but purely in a platonic way. They become proper friends, and you can see it happening gradually throughout the show’s run, but that’s where it ends. Why don’t I believe there’s more to it? It’s all there in the original article – partly because I can’t identify any moments where there’s romantic undertones to their interactions, and partly because the creator of the show told me directly that he’d never written it that way.
Slash is not my thing, but hey, whatever floats your boat, each to their own… etc, etc. Fandom is a varied and wonderful thing, it can be whatever you want it to be! The problem that I have with a certain section of slash is this attitude: I have decided that Lister and Rimmer are gay and if you disagree then it’s because you’re homophobic, not because people are allowed to have differing opinions on things. What exactly is homophobic about saying, “I don’t think Lister and Rimmer are gay”? What the actual fuck is that about? I can’t fathom the logic behind that at all. If you make ridiculous and offensive statements like that, then yes, you’re quite rightly going to be ridiculed. Do you actually understand how offensive you’re being throwing around accusations like that with absolutely no justification whatsoever? Oh and lolz… “Boys Club”? *wave* And for the record: I don’t think Lister and Rimmer fancy each other, not at all, not even a little, I just don’t see it… but if you do and you enjoy writing about it and discussing it with like-minded individuals, then awesome :) Have fun! You see things one way, I see them differently, neither is wrong or bad, they’re just different. If everyone thought the same way, the world would be a dull place. I don’t think anybody said that there is anything homophobic about saying, “I don’t think that Lister and Rimmer are gay.” I certainly don’t think there’s anything homophobic about it either. In fact, even I don’t think that Lister and Rimmer, as they are presented and written in the show, are gay. I just think it’s fun to consider that they could be, and extrapolate from there. I think the mocking of the idea that they could be gay, is where I’m getting a sense of homophobia, whether intended or not. You can see my response to Ian above for a bit more about that. And you’re absolutely right, there is nothing wrong with seeing things in different ways. If anyone in the slash subset has ever told you you’re stupid or wrong for not thinking that Lister and Rimmer are gay, than I apologize to you on their behalf. I’ve never heard anyone express that attitude personally, but I don’t doubt that it’s happened to someone at some point. Not accepting someone’s opinion just because it’s different from yours, is never cool, or froody.
I’m obviously biased, having known Ian for over a decade, but I find it interesting that the only offence an obviously sarcastic, written for laughs article causes is a reference to the insistence from some slash fans that Lister and Rimmer are obviously gay. I can’t see how it could be homophobic, unless you decide that any resistance to that idea is automatically homophobic, which is pretty reductive and unhelpful, IMO. Yes, I do think some slash fans are sensitive, and I also understand why, but I don’t like the automatic accusation of homophobia that any criticism seems to generate. I also find your use of deeply problematic rom-com tropes in defending the idea of that particular relationship interesting, lordvalerymimes. I think you’ve missed Ian’s point totally, despite him going to some lengths to explain it. There’s nothing wrong with slash fiction, because it’s often a valuable expression of sexuality that is underrepresented in the mainstream media. I rather enjoy the slash take on The Professionals, for example. What is problematic in slash and fandom in general is the insistence from some that their take on the relationship between Lister and Rimmer is what the writers intended, despite there being little evidence in the source material, and a confirmation from one of the writers that a homoerotic relationship wasn’t the intention. No-one has the right to decide what the writer(s) intended, and I find it a bit of a shame that some can’t enjoy slash or their interpretation of an episode for what it is; their interpretation, rather than the final word on what a writer may or may not have intended. It’s particularly problematic if the writers concerned come from an earlier generation than the fandom, because it’s very hard for someone in a fandom to adopt the assumptions of a different generation. What may seem ‘obvious’ to a fan may come as a complete surprise to a writer from an earlier generation, as I think Doug Naylor has demonstrated, and what Ian referred to in the article.
I appreciate all of this, and can empathise about the feeling of being mocked. However, the point of the gag was less to do with the concept of Rimmer and Lister being gay, and more to do with the extreme responses that always seems to ensue whenever it’s discussed. As far as that’s concerned, I rest my case. Thanks for signing up and sticking your head above the parapet. In response to the topic at hand, my interpretation is that Rimmer and Lister do develop strong feelings for each other over the course of the series, but purely in a platonic way. They become proper friends, and you can see it happening gradually throughout the show’s run, but that’s where it ends. Why don’t I believe there’s more to it? It’s all there in the original article – partly because I can’t identify any moments where there’s romantic undertones to their interactions, and partly because the creator of the show told me directly that he’d never written it that way. As I mentioned to Jo above, I myself don’t honestly think that Lister & Rimmer are intended to be gay as they are written and portrayed in the show. However, I do think that there is loads of homosexual subcontext, whether done intentionally or not, and I think it’s fun to explore the idea of them being gay as a “what if?” scenario. I can’t speak for the entire slash subset, but for me, it’s never been about being 100% convinced that Lister & Rimmer are definitely being written as gay. And I’ve no desire to convince others that they are. It’s just a fun little thing to postulate on, and it certainly (for me), makes the show more interesting to be able to view it from this other direction.
I think we agree more than we disagree – I can certainly see the appeal from the way you describe it, but I don’t think that everyone in the community is as easy-going as you are.
I’m obviously biased, having known Ian for over a decade, but I find it interesting that the only offence an obviously sarcastic, written for laughs article causes is a reference to the insistence from some slash fans that Lister and Rimmer are obviously gay. I can’t see how it could be homophobic, unless you decide that any resistance to that idea is automatically homophobic, which is pretty reductive and unhelpful, IMO. Yes, I do think some slash fans are sensitive, and I also understand why, but I don’t like the automatic accusation of homophobia that any criticism seems to generate. I also find your use of deeply problematic rom-com tropes in defending the idea of that particular relationship interesting, lordvalerymimes. I think you’ve missed Ian’s point totally, despite him going to some lengths to explain it. There’s nothing wrong with slash fiction, because it’s often a valuable expression of sexuality that is underrepresented in the mainstream media. I rather enjoy the slash take on The Professionals, for example. What is problematic in slash and fandom in general is the insistence from some that their take on the relationship between Lister and Rimmer is what the writers intended, despite there being little evidence in the source material, and a confirmation from one of the writers that a homoerotic relationship wasn’t the intention. No-one has the right to decide what the writer(s) intended, and I find it a bit of a shame that some can’t enjoy slash or their interpretation of an episode for what it is; their interpretation, rather than the final word on what a writer may or may not have intended. It’s particularly problematic if the writers concerned come from an earlier generation than the fandom, because it’s very hard for someone in a fandom to adopt the assumptions of a different generation. What may seem ‘obvious’ to a fan may come as a complete surprise to a writer from an earlier generation, as I think Doug Naylor has demonstrated, and what Ian referred to in the article. Maybe it’s because I’m new to the fandom and slash in general, but I’ve never encountered this insistence about Lister & Rimmer being gay coming from the people who pair them together. I’ve been involved in the fandom for about a year now, and from my experiences, it’s remarkably flexible and accepting. Sure the majority of people pair Lister and Rimmer together, but there are plenty of other pairings that people explore, and no one seems to have a problem with that. People interpret Lister and Rimmer’s relationship in different ways as well, and I’ve never heard anyone express animosity towards those who don’t agree with them. As for the comment on rom-com tropes, I never said that I imagined Lister and Rimmer’s relationship would be a healthy one. ;-)
I think we agree more than we disagree – I can certainly see the appeal from the way you describe it, but I don’t think that everyone in the community is as easy-going as you are. How many people in the slash community have you talked with about it? Just genuinely curious here. I’ve only been into Red Dwarf for about a year and a half at this point, and I started off being a part of the general community before I shifted into spending more time in the slash community. The clear separation between the two, honestly makes me a little bit sad. There’s this sense that the slashers are sort of the weird cousins in the Red Dwarf fandom that are not talked about. I have two separate online identities for the slash community, and for the greater Red Dwarf community because there is this sense that if people know you write slash, you’re looked down on a bit. This opinion amongst the greater community that we’re all out to convince you that Lister & Rimmer are gay is probably a part of it. I’m still a bit of a newbie, but everybody in the slash fandom who I interact with on a regular basis, has never given me the impression that they would ever insist that other people see things their way, and their way alone. There is SO much variety in the slash subset, it’s one of the things that I love about it: the variety of different ways people interpret the show, and the characters in it. I’ve read everything from a re-imagining of Dirty Dancing (with Lister & Rimmer replacing Patrick Swayze and Jennifer Grey, which was completely self-aware in it’s ridiculousness and so much fun to read), to an alternative universe story where Lister and Rimmer were both serial killers who cross paths (disturbing but well-written and very thought-provoking). Because of the sheer volume and variety of thoughts and interpretations that I’ve encountered within the slash community, it just makes me scratch my head in confusion when I hear people say that we’re all just out to convince people that Lister and Rimmer are gay. From this side, we’re just all having loads of fun together writing smeg that is sometimes silly, sometimes serious, sometimes sexy, and sometimes all three. :)
It’s a fair point that it’s a shame that it’s thought of a separate community. The thing is, people that I know have had very nasty run-ins with the more militant members, and it’s always the ultra-defensive slashers that make it personal. This hoohah is a prime example of how needless it all is – it’s the people who responded to very gentle ribbing of a general group with personal attacks that are to blame for the division.
I’ve met and spoken to a huge range of RD fans over the years. A good friend of mine is a slash writer/fan, she’s on the Fan Club team with me in fact and she says very similar things to you in terms of why she likes it and her attitudes to opposing views. As always with these things it’s a vocal minority that spoils things… there was indeed a specific incident, a few years ago now, when a friend of mine was called homophobic, purely because they did not see the Lister/Rimmer relationship as a gay one. This incident spilled over into general nastiness and ill-feeling and sadly that is the lasting impression that I have been left with of a section of the LJ/Tumblr slash community. I imagine it is also a major reason that some people on Tumblr are so quick to jump all over G&T. It’s G&T’s nature to poke fun at everyone, including themselves… but there’s not intended to be any malice in it. I know them all personally and they’re good people. From your posts, it seems perhaps that things have moved on since then and maybe it would be good for everyone to draw a line under the whole thing… (Oof! And just when I was about to post…) However when people say things like this: “I mostly stay clear of G&T and have done for years. I find the overall attitude on the site from both the articles and the commenters very unpleasant. I consider them a shining example of how NOT to do fandom. All they seem to do is bitch and bully.” …I can’t see that happening any time soon. As a member of the Fan Club team, it’s good to know that I’m a shining example of how not to do fandom. I’ll remember that when I’m working my backside off on things for the Dimension Jump convention at 2am after and before a full day of work.
>The clear separation between the two, honestly makes me a little bit sad. Can you elaborate on this? As someone who’s been in varying degrees of Red Dwarf fandom for over 20 years, today is the first time I’ve been made consciously aware of Red Dwarf slash. The thought has never entered my mind because the subject has no interest to me. I haven’t gone looking for it. (Easy enough to find though; Google is right there) Has slash had a hostile reception on the Official RD Forum?, because I don’t recall slash ever being mentioned or publicised on *this* website until Ian’s comment at 1 minute past noon today. (The oblique reference in the article itself having flown over my head). I think it’s naive to assume that the general fan “community” (whatever that is), would be interested in it and would give it anything other than a wide berth. It’s a niche subculture that will only appeal to a fairly small cross-section; as it is, with other fandoms. That’s not homophobic. That’s just a fact. FWIW; I have no interest in fan-fiction full stop, irrespective of the sexual preferences of the characters.
I’ve met and spoken to a huge range of RD fans over the years. A good friend of mine is a slash writer/fan, she’s on the Fan Club team with me in fact and she says very similar things to you in terms of why she likes it and her attitudes to opposing views. As always with these things it’s a vocal minority that spoils things… there was indeed a specific incident, a few years ago now, when a friend of mine was called homophobic, purely because they did not see the Lister/Rimmer relationship as a gay one. This incident spilled over into general nastiness and ill-feeling and sadly that is the lasting impression that I have been left with of a section of the LJ/Tumblr slash community. I imagine it is also a major reason that some people on Tumblr are so quick to jump all over G&T. It’s G&T’s nature to poke fun at everyone, including themselves… but there’s not intended to be any malice in it. I know them all personally and they’re good people. From your posts, it seems perhaps that things have moved on since then and maybe it would be good for everyone to draw a line under the whole thing… (Oof! And just when I was about to post…) However when people say things like this: “I mostly stay clear of G&T and have done for years. I find the overall attitude on the site from both the articles and the commenters very unpleasant. I consider them a shining example of how NOT to do fandom. All they seem to do is bitch and bully.” …I can’t see that happening any time soon. As a member of the Fan Club team, it’s good to know that I’m a shining example of how not to do fandom. I’ll remember that when I’m working my backside off on things for the Dimension Jump convention at 2am after and before a full day of work. Hi Jo The comment you quoted was mine and I would like to respond. First of all, my criticism was not aimed at the fan club or at any of the hard work put into runn
I’ve met and spoken to a huge range of RD fans over the years. A good friend of mine is a slash writer/fan, she’s on the Fan Club team with me in fact and she says very similar things to you in terms of why she likes it and her attitudes to opposing views. As always with these things it’s a vocal minority that spoils things… there was indeed a specific incident, a few years ago now, when a friend of mine was called homophobic, purely because they did not see the Lister/Rimmer relationship as a gay one. This incident spilled over into general nastiness and ill-feeling and sadly that is the lasting impression that I have been left with of a section of the LJ/Tumblr slash community. I imagine it is also a major reason that some people on Tumblr are so quick to jump all over G&T. It’s G&T’s nature to poke fun at everyone, including themselves… but there’s not intended to be any malice in it. I know them all personally and they’re good people. From your posts, it seems perhaps that things have moved on since then and maybe it would be good for everyone to draw a line under the whole thing… (Oof! And just when I was about to post…) However when people say things like this: “I mostly stay clear of G&T and have done for years. I find the overall attitude on the site from both the articles and the commenters very unpleasant. I consider them a shining example of how NOT to do fandom. All they seem to do is bitch and bully.” …I can’t see that happening any time soon. As a member of the Fan Club team, it’s good to know that I’m a shining example of how not to do fandom. I’ll remember that when I’m working my backside off on things for the Dimension Jump convention at 2am after and before a full day of work. Hi Jo The comment you quoted was mine and I would like to respond. First of all, my criticism was not aimed at the fan club or at any of the hard work put into running it or Dimension Jump. I have nothing but respect for all of that. My comments were directed specifically at this website and I am sorry to say that I stand by them. For the record, this has nothing to do with the slash argument. Any time I venture onto this site, hoping for interesting articles about my favourite show, I always come away feeling saddened by the atmosphere here. There are constantly negative and often outright rude remarks about writers, cast members and guest stars. That may be unavoidable in comment threads but it is inexcusable in articles on what is supposed to be a site celebrating the show. Constructive criticism is good, even necessary in fandom, but that’s not what I see here on a regular basis. I see fan entitlement and often plain old-fashioned meaness. That’s before we even get started on the comment threads. THAT is what I mean by how not to do fandom. Obviously there are people who like this site and spend a lot of time here. Maybe they aren’t bothered by the tone of the articles or comments and feel like its all good fun. I hope they continue to enjoy it. But I don’t. I’ll keep popping back now and then when potentially interesting articles come up, hoping that I won’t yet again come away feeling saddened and disappointed. And no doubt I’ll continue to see unpleasant remarks directed at show runners and other fans. There is a difference between gentle ribbing and bullying. The people on this site have yet to learn the difference.
In my heart, Pecospete, you’re always being told to fuck off. (Eagerly awaits Pecospete666/Phil slash.)
“There is a difference between gentle ribbing and bullying.” It’s also not binary and there’s a wealth of approaches between those two (which is where I’d argue this site, from an editorial standpoint at least, falls easily). As far as commenters go, yeah, I’ve seen some shitty things posted here. A lot of them bear my name. And because of that, I can say confidently that when someone _does_ go too far, they get called out on it. Uncalled-for rudeness doesn’t often go unchecked. And in the cases that it does, it’s because nobody’s deemed it worthy of response, not because it’s welcome.
Hi, I appreciate that you weren’t aiming your criticism at the fan club specifically, however it was aimed at people who comment on G&T, of which I am one… so I remain insulted and offended. For the record, two of the G&T team are also currently members of the Fan Club team. Looking at the comments on Tumblr, I can see a lot of upset based around the complaint that people told you that you’re doing fandom wrong – which would be a completely valid complaint… if anyone had actually done that here, which they haven’t. This was followed by your statement that G&T is “a shining example of how not to do fandom”. Do you see what you’re doing there?
>There are constantly negative and often outright rude remarks about writers, cast members and guest stars. I’m slightly bemused that we’re being criticised about “rude” remarks about cast members. I just googled your name, FelineRanger, scrolled through the first story I saw and found a scene which includes the line : “Rimmer came with a heartfelt groan into Lister’s ass” Now, my imagination may not be as good as yours, but it’s pretty difficult to conjure up an image of Rimmer and Lister without imagining Chris Barrie and Craig Charles. So, um, yeah. The mental image currently in my head is a bit rude. Isn’t that kind of the point?
Any time I venture onto this site, hoping for interesting articles about my favourite show, I always come away feeling saddened by the atmosphere here. There are constantly negative and often outright rude remarks about writers, cast members and guest stars. That may be unavoidable in comment threads but it is inexcusable in articles on what is supposed to be a site celebrating the show. Constructive criticism is good, even necessary in fandom, but that’s not what I see here on a regular basis. I see fan entitlement and often plain old-fashioned meaness. That’s before we even get started on the comment threads. You said you haven’t been here in years… so where is this analysis of the content coming from? If you’re using this post as an example, what you need to understand is that IT IS AN APRIL FOOLS JOKE. It’s deliberately saying the opposite… that’s the joke you see. Have you read the many other posts – High and Low, for example, contains plenty of positive content. The Silver Survey, filming reports and instant reactions to Series X… there is an awful lot of positive output celebrating the show, if you bother to actually read anything rather than cherry picking things to get offended about. Just as an aside: Were you aware that Doug reads this site? THAT is what I mean by how not to do fandom. Who put you in charge of how to do fandom? You do it your way, others do it theirs. There’s no right or wrong way… unless your way is telling people that they’re doing it wrong, because that is utter bullshit. Obviously there are people who like this site and spend a lot of time here. Maybe they aren’t bothered by the tone of the articles or comments and feel like its all good fun. I hope they continue to enjoy it. But I don’t. I’ll keep popping back now and then when potentially interesting articles come up, hoping that I won’t yet again come away feeling saddened and disappointed. And no doubt I’ll continue to see unpleasant remarks directed at show runners and other fans. So, what you’re saying is you don’t like G&T? That’s fine, it’s not for everyone. I don’t like slash… I also don’t make sweeping judgements on the people who choose to partake or say that you’re doing fandom wrong. There is a difference between gentle ribbing and bullying. The people on this site have yet to learn the difference. While you’re looking up hypocrisy, I suggest you also look up bullying. I also suggest you stop throwing around inflammatory insults like they’re fucking confetti.
(Eagerly awaits Pecospete666/Phil slash.) Screw that, I’m not sifting through an 800 page Word document and changes all instances of Ridley to Pecos.
Hi, I appreciate that you weren’t aiming your criticism at the fan club specifically, however it was aimed at people who comment on G&T, of which I am one… so I remain insulted and offended. For the record, two of the G&T team are also currently members of the Fan Club team. Looking at the comments on Tumblr, I can see a lot of upset based around the complaint that people told you that you’re doing fandom wrong – which would be a completely valid complaint… if anyone had actually done that here, which they haven’t. This was followed by your statement that G&T is “a shining example of how not to do fandom”. Do you see what you’re doing there? My comment was aimed at those who make this website (in my experience) an unpleasant and uncomfortable place to be. I’m not saying that any participation or involvement with G&T automatically makes someone a bad fan or responsible for that atmosphere. I’m sure there are lots of people who come on here who are respectful of everyone and don’t make any rude or hurtful comments and I’ve got no problem with them or the fact that they want to hang out here. But nonetheless, as I said, I stand by my comment that there IS an overall feeling of negativity here which is the reason I mostly stay away. That is my feeling and my experience and I’m not going to apologise for that. I didn’t even come on here to complain or voice those feelings, I did it on my own blog on a different website because I know that ultimately it doesn’t matter how I feel about this place. I dont have to come here if I dont like it and have no wish to spoil it for those who do. I’m only here to clarify those comments and explain why I made them. I am not one of the people who said that G&T were telling slashers that it was the ‘wrong way to enjoy fandom’ and I don’t think that’s necessarily what is going on here (at least not entirely). But in my book, anytime someone is deliberately unkind about the show, those involved in making it, or the other people who love it, that is how not to do fandom. And I have seen all of those behaviours in the articles on this site. I stress once again, criticism is both appropriate and necessary, but not unkindness or rudeness. I’m sure that you and the other people on the team here put a lot of work into this site and I appreciate and respect that, but it doesn’t change the fact that I have never felt either comfortable or welcome here. That’s my problem and I deal with it by hanging out elsewhere. But I will suggest that I and a lot of the other people who were annoyed, offended or both by this mess today might have been more inclined to take it as ‘gentle ribbing’ if the general atmosphere here were a little kinder.
I’ve searched the archives of G&T and there are precisely four articles that contain the word “slash”. Two of those are just the word for the slanted line symbol. One is an Observation Dome post from 2005 where people were asking what slash fiction is. One is the Silver Survey results, which states that Blue is a popular episode amongst the slash community. Quite the campaign of terror. It would seem that people who enjoy inventing subtexts for works of fiction also read non-existent subtexts in everything else.
Incidentally, I don’t mind that people dislike G&T – we don’t write for any particular audience, or even with any sense of purpose whatsoever, so it’s par for the course to rub people up the wrong way. We’ll keep doing things our way, as we’ve been doing for twelve and half years – the people who like it can enjoy it, and the people who don’t can easily ignore it. We’ve never wanted to be spokespeople for Red Dwarf fandom. The only thing I object to is being accused of expressing attitudes that I haven’t expressed. The rest is fluff.
The irony here that this comment thread is now significantly more “unpleasant and uncomfortable” since you started posting in it, felineranger. There has been disagreement but I felt the tone was respectful, but you contributing by airing your general distaste for the site and its tone, and admitting it didn’t have anything to do with the slash discussion, has distracted from that. Personally, I think there’s a great deal to be said on the subject of whether the slash community feel comfortable as part of the fandom as a whole, or why they might feel marginalised or mocked and what can be done to remove any genuine nastiness towards slash fans (something that this site has never partaken in), but what really doesn’t help this is extreme, defensive reaction from people such as yourself, stifling any sort of decent discussion.
Thanks Phil I knew you would not forget me Now I feel wanted again But I been cheating I have become a “Bronie” and spending my time there. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2629225/Meet-bronies-New-documentary-reveals-weird-world-male-middle-aged-fans-My-Little-Pony.html Ridex I’m glad your still with us,your avatar looks a little more decomposed!
The irony here that this comment thread is now significantly more “unpleasant and uncomfortable” since you started posting in it, felineranger. There has been disagreement but I felt the tone was respectful, but you contributing by airing your general distaste for the site and its tone, and admitting it didn’t have anything to do with the slash discussion, has distracted from that. Personally, I think there’s a great deal to be said on the subject of whether the slash community feel comfortable as part of the fandom as a whole, or why they might feel marginalised or mocked and what can be done to remove any genuine nastiness towards slash fans (something that this site has never partaken in), but what really doesn’t help this is extreme, defensive reaction from people such as yourself, stifling any sort of decent discussion. Again, I will point out that I did not come on here to voice any of this, and would not have done, until comments were taken off my Tumblr blog. I came on here to explain why I made those comments and to clarify that my gripe was not with the fan club.
In response to this diatribe, felineranger… If you can provide me with an actual reason why any of the things I’ve written in this article can be construed as homophobic, I’ll happily respond to all specific criticism, reconsider my attitude and try hard to improve it. Because as things stand, I genuinely don’t know what I’ve done that’s homophobic – if I have been, I want the opportunity to learn from it, because it’s something I’d never want to be associated with. In return, maybe you can justify your extrapolation that I’m sexist as well as homophobic?
Any time I venture onto this site, hoping for interesting articles about my favourite show, I always come away feeling saddened by the atmosphere here. There are constantly negative and often outright rude remarks about writers, cast members and guest stars. That may be unavoidable in comment threads but it is inexcusable in articles on what is supposed to be a site celebrating the show. Constructive criticism is good, even necessary in fandom, but that’s not what I see here on a regular basis. I see fan entitlement and often plain old-fashioned meaness. That’s before we even get started on the comment threads. You said you haven’t been here in years… so where is this analysis of the content coming from? If you’re using this post as an example, what you need to understand is that IT IS AN APRIL FOOLS JOKE. It’s deliberately saying the opposite… that’s the joke you see. Have you read the many other posts – High and Low, for example, contains plenty of positive content. The Silver Survey, filming reports and instant reactions to Series X… there is an awful lot of positive output celebrating the show, if you bother to actually read anything rather than cherry picking things to get offended about. Just as an aside: Were you aware that Doug reads this site? THAT is what I mean by how not to do fandom. Who put you in charge of how to do fandom? You do it your way, others do it theirs. There’s no right or wrong way… unless your way is telling people that they’re doing it wrong, because that is utter bullshit. Obviously there are people who like this site and spend a lot of time here. Maybe they aren’t bothered by the tone of the articles or comments and feel like its all good fun. I hope they continue to enjoy it. But I don’t. I’ll keep popping back now and then when potentially interesting articles come up, hoping that I won’t yet again come away feeling saddened and disappointed. And no doubt I’ll continue to see unpleasant remarks directed at show runners and other fans. So, what you’re saying is you don’t like G&T? That’s fine, it’s not for everyone. I don’t like slash… I also don’t make sweeping judgements on the people who choose to partake or say that you’re doing fandom wrong. There is a difference between gentle ribbing and bullying. The people on this site have yet to learn the difference. While you’re looking up hypocrisy, I suggest you also look up bullying. I also suggest you stop throwing around inflammatory insults like they’re fucking confetti. I said that I ‘mostly’ stay away, I also said that I do venture in occasionally for interesting articles. There is some good content here and I don’t deny that. I certainly don’t come in ‘looking’ to get offended. When I do come here, it’s for the same reason we all come here, because I want to read about my favourite show. I’m also perfectly happy for you (or anyone else for that matter) to not like slash. I certainly don’t think that it automatically makes you homophobic and I’m happy to agree to disagree on the nature of Ian’s post today. As for who put me in charge? Absolutely no-one. If you hadn’t taken that comment off my blog, I would have never bothered a single person here. I would have continued enjoying fandom my way and let you enjoy it in yours. As it is, I felt I had to give context and clarify my feelings on the matter. You dragged me into this, so I’m going to have my say on my terms.
What bugs me is: A: The refusal to acknowledge that the original article was in any way homophobic. Please explain exactly how. Give specifics. B: The subsequent whiny mansplaining about ‘militant slashers’ when the RD slash fandom are probably one of THE most chilled out fandoms out there. Yes. You seem SUPER chilled and not in the least bit militant. Tanya and I also explained. Were we “mansplaining” too? Or does that not fit your cherry picked argument? C: The further whining that accusing someone of homophobia is somehow worse than actual homophobia. Well, accusing someone of homophobia who isn’t homophobic and has said anything even vaguely homophobic is incredibly insulting, because homophobia is an incredibly bad thing and the accusation shouldn’t be thrown about lightly. I don’t want us all to get bogged down in this. At the end of the day it’s a silly little fandom war and nothing else. War? Yeah. Not militant AT ALL. Basically Symes has revealed himself as being the equivalent to one of those guys who tells a sexist joke and then mutters about feminazis when no-one laughs. Hold on… I missed that. Was that in the subtext again? The article was mean-spirited, It wasn’t. it WAS homophobic (at the very least biphobic) It wasn’t. no matter how hard he might protest otherwise and he is an arse. That’s his problem. Oh Symes *can* be an arse, for sure. In this instance, though, no, he was being reasonable. You were the one turning up bitching about the output of the site, telling people they’re doing fandom wrong and then complaining that you weren’t made to feel welcome. GO FIGURE! We’ll be over here, carrying on doing exactly what we do and having a ball doing it regardless.. Good for you. Nobody here has an issue with that.
I said that I ‘mostly’ stay away, I also said that I do venture in occasionally for interesting articles. There is some good content here and I don’t deny that. I certainly don’t come in ‘looking’ to get offended. When I do come here, it’s for the same reason we all come here, because I want to read about my favourite show. I’m also perfectly happy for you (or anyone else for that matter) to not like slash. I certainly don’t think that it automatically makes you homophobic and I’m happy to agree to disagree on the nature of Ian’s post today. As for who put me in charge? Absolutely no-one. If you hadn’t taken that comment off my blog, I would have never bothered a single person here. I would have continued enjoying fandom my way and let you enjoy it in yours. As it is, I felt I had to give context and clarify my feelings on the matter. You dragged me into this, so I’m going to have my say on my terms. Agree to disagree? You can’t throw accusations like that around and not justify them. So no, I’d actually prefer that you explain exactly how this article is in any way homophobic. If you can’t, then I’d like you to retract your assertions. I know nobody put you in charge. That was my point. It’s not up to you to decide what fandom should or shouldn’t do. I didn’t take your comment from your blog, I took it from the original Tumblr posters comments. Tumblr is a weird non-linear wibbley-wobbley fucking mess… I did however take your above rant from your Tumblr, because you’re not being very nice. I dragged you into nothing dear, you chose to bitch about me and people I know and like on the internet, you dragged yourself into this.
Wow. Not One April fool but a whole basket of them. I love the Jimmy Nail at the window picture. Have you been watching that on House of Fools? Alan Car and Barry cryer popping up. I love that you attacked Hattie. Such a nice person this false reality bubble you create is brilliant you just truly never see a bad word against her normally (Norman “stole my act” aside that is) That bit made me laugh the most. Hello to the newly posting, Bent Bob’s. how’s it going mates? Just a Nickname for you. It’s affectionate, it’s meant affectionately, and obviously I’m only being insensitive behind you tumblr. and not to your face. I think you cant take a joke, or at least overblown one part of a very big joke. It’s April the 1st at least for a couple more minutes. Any other day we should respect you more evenly on even terms sure. He turned and blew everyone a kiss excitedly. Basically I get the joke about Jimmy Nail. I don’t understand what the guitarist from Guns and Roses has to do with all this though??? he’s fictional, that’s an April Fool yeah?
In response to this diatribe, felineranger… If you can provide me with an actual reason why any of the things I’ve written in this article can be construed as homophobic, I’ll happily respond to all specific criticism, reconsider my attitude and try hard to improve it. Because as things stand, I genuinely don’t know what I’ve done that’s homophobic – if I have been, I want the opportunity to learn from it, because it’s something I’d never want to be associated with. In return, maybe you can justify your extrapolation that I’m sexist as well as homophobic? Thank you for the opportunity, Ian. I appreciate you asking. Firstly, I did not say you were sexist. I drew a comparison with the way sexists often behave. Whether you intended it or not, I’m afraid that I did find the article slightly homophobic. I’m aware that any homoerotic subtext in the show is played for laughs and not intended to be taken seriously, but denying that it is there at all is problematic. Mainly because queer representation of any sort is so lacking in mainstream media that erasing any small traces of it that do occur is always harmful. By making it a joke that there could be any romantic or sexual connection between the two, you are taking away representation that may be very important to some fans. Also, the fact that both characters have canon relationships with women is not conclusive proof that they could not also have feelings for each other. Bisexual people exist and your article ignored this fact, again taking away something that might be important to some fans. Homophobia isn’t just about ‘hating’ homosexuality, it can also be about undermining its validity or trying to cover it up or push it aside and, for me, I felt that was what your article did. Intentionally or unintentionally, it said ‘Gays? Not in our show!’. I’ve been in this fandom for many many years and been a slasher for a lot of them. I’ve only ever seen one person truly overreact to someone not shipping L/R. So when I see you complaining about ‘militant slashers’ when it became clear that your article had upset some people I was irked. For some of us, it’s not just about ‘you dont like something I like’. For some of us who don’t identify as straight, it feels like you’re making fun of our sexuality as well as our ship. The fact that you then went on the defensive, stressing how you’re totally not homophobic and you’re the victim here because calling someone homophobic is really nasty totally misses the point. Some of the people who were complaining about your article are gay. They felt hurt by it. They have a right to call you out on it. Simply dismissing them as militant slashers is both unfair and innacurate. Hence the comparison I drew with the sexist huffing about feminazis. Sometimes it’s best to just acknowledge that your joke hurt someone rather than complain about their lack of humour. I’m not going to say anything else. I’m tired, it’s late and I’ve found this whole thing very depressing. I won’t be responding to any further comments. I hope I’ve made my thoughts on this whole matter clear enough.
Enjoyed the article, really looking forward to the Holly one. Isn’t this argument just a case of people inferring things that aren’t being implied? It’s kind of a leap to say “[Rimmer and Lister] display no signs of romantic affection or repressed homosexuality whatsoever” is saying “Gays? Not in our show!”
“a re-imagining of Dirty Dancing (with Lister & Rimmer replacing Patrick Swayze and Jennifer Grey, which was completely self-aware in it’s ridiculousness and so much fun to read)” Have you Seen tongue tied? They would never have the moves to pull that off. Even if Danny and Augins helped mate.
“Whether you intended it or not, I’m afraid that I did find the article slightly homophobic. I’m aware that any homoerotic subtext in the show is played for laughs and not intended to be taken seriously, but denying that it is there at all is problematic.” So, in conclusion: Lister and Rimmer have homoerotic subtext that even the writer of the characters denies exists, but if you disagree with me then you’re homophobic. Gotcha. …and I think that’s brought this debate full circle, no?
Thanks for responding with specifics. I will take this on board, and bear these issues in mind in future. But I think the insurmountable issue with this particular argument is that we’re discussing something that one group of people believe exists, and that another group of people don’t believe exists. In an article that takes established facts and argues the exact opposite, I see “Lister and Rimmer are straight” as equally factual as “Robert Llewellyn wears a mask” or “Starbug is a miniature”, so it was as equally valid a target as any of the other fourteen entries. I agree that non-hetero relationships are under-represented in culture, but I can’t get board with the logic that denying that specific characters are gay (when, once again, the creator of the characters has said as much) equates to an endorsement of this state of affairs, or that it contributes to the status quo. My interpretation that Lister and Rimmer are straight is (at worst) just as valid as your interpretation that they’re gay – we should both be free to expand on our interpretations without pissing off anyone who doesn’t agree, but it’ll take restraint from both sides. Regarding the bisexuality point. I think it’s a bit of stretch to gauge my views on this topic from one item in a long list, which in itself is only one fifteenth of an article. Please see my earlier comment containing my actual views on the spectrum of sexuality – a comment I felt I ought to make primarily because the article *didn’t* contain any of my actual views on the spectrum of sexuality. I have most definitely been on the defensive today, but a) pot-kettle-black, and b) until I’d seen any specific comments about the content of the article, I had no way of knowing what I’d done wrong. I’d implied that sections of the slash community accuse people of homophobia simply for disagreeing with them, and from my perspective, that’s exactly what had happened. I’m fully aware of how it comes across when a white, straight, cis man starts discussing issues of representation and discrimination, and the reason I’ve reacted so strongly to the slurs is that they’re so completely and utterly at odds with how I see myself. Christ, I don’t want to veer into “some of my best friends are…” territory, but I feel that by working on certain TV shows, I’ve done more to increase the representation of LGBT people on television than I have to suppress it. But anyway. It’s been quite a bizarre day. I can’t deny that I knew people would be pissed off by that paragraph, but by Christ, I never expected it to dominate so much. Thanks again for giving me some specifics to work with; you’ve made me aware of a potential trap that I didn’t recognise. If you’re backing out, we’ll have to agree to disagree as to whether I’ve actually fallen into that trap.
Anyway, what does everyone reckon of the first fourteen fifteenths of the article? I was particularly pleased with the bit about Jimmy Nail shitting into a bin.
“broadsheet journalists with stupid white streaks in their stupid hair.” I’ve grown out of “Raised by Wolves” without even watching it. Due to previous trauma of accidentally turning on Naked City once and falling deeply in hate, with the snidy homeschooled now badger.
Now might be the time to point out that I know for a fact at least one G&T admin has written slash fiction and posted it online…
“Nail himself distanced himself from the role, as he didn’t wish to be typecast as a genetically engineered life form, allowing pathological liar Ainsley Harriott to bask in the reflected glory.” This made me do huge lolz :)
In case anyone randomly stumbles upon this comments thread… I’ve read G&T for well over 10 years and the above accusations are laughable, at best! As Ian has already said, I can’t even remember slash being discussed on here, so to say this place has an ‘anti-slash’ attitude is fairly ridiculous. Homophobia? xD Ian didn’t even need to defend himself over it. Any regular reader/poster on here would agree it’s a total non-issue. Ship off!
“Good meeting.” Lister says he’s not gay. The context in which he says it makes it unlikely that he’s bisexual either. Mirror Lister might be what with him having a moustache or whatever. However, that’s in a deleted scene. There could be an argument for Rimmer what with his self-loathing beast and low self. And I could see the gay subtext thang being read into Rimmer’s attitude towards Ace hanging out with Lister and the reject from a gay pride disco line. I’m not sure Symes having the conversation can be mansplaining just because he’s having the discussion with a woman he disagrees with. —- Now, while “it’s just a joke” isn’t a good enough defence, I think it’s been misread as the target being slash writers rather than a jibe at inflexible people who take their own headcanon as gospel against evidence to the contrary. Don’t frequent many Tumblrseseses so I can only recall Paddon commenting on it a while back. Haven’t seen it myself yet such people sound like a valid target eye em oh. Reminds me of that guy on YouTube who misheard “miladdo” as “mulatto” and despite Ellard et al correcting him the reply basically amounted to “I know what I heard.” Personally, it’s been an interesting read all round. Kinda odd that anniescribe’s barnacle crack has somehow transformed into the collective opinion of everyone here for lordvalerymimes overnight though. A few months ago, The Mary Sue posted an article on “The Fetishisation Of Gay Men By Women In The Slash Community” that could be worth a look. It’s dealing with the idea that female writers are hijacking the the experience of actual gay men but it uses an image of Holmes and Watson and the comments section goes into the fiction side of things.
Well my Vogon Masters have woken up, and have seen this thread and they decided that” felineranger”will be getting an and intergalactic restroom stop in front of his home! We all know what goes on at intergalactic highway rest stops.if you don’t look up the New Jersey Turnpike exit 16 rest Stop. Ridex nice speech! Are you running for Office? What I’ve seen of UK politics you would win easily! I can not post a annoying photos Because Photobucket doesn’t work with my iPad anymore!HTML
Kinda odd that anniescribe’s barnacle crack has somehow transformed into the collective opinion of everyone here for lordvalerymimes overnight though. Well, yeah, especially given that Anniescribe is a slash writer (I seem to remember?) and was being sarcastic.
While looking up “barnacle” I came across this interesting fact! They do so with a huge penis, which blindly reaches across into neighbouring shells and deposits sperm inside. This giant organ can stretch up to eight times a barnacle’s own body length, making it proportionately the biggest penis in the animal world. Since most barnacles are hermaphrodites, every individual can fertilise and be fertilised by all of its neighbours. And if there’s no one else within reach, the barnacles apparently fertilise themselves A new insight on “go Fuck Your self “
There are some interesting perceptions about fanfic throughout, which I was kind of surprised still exist given how long it’s been around (since the first storyteller to like what somebody else related said “Hey, that’s great … but what if I did this with this part instead?”). To wit: 1. Every iteration of Sherlock Holmes beyond Doyle’s own hand is fanfic. 2. The Abrams Star Trek universe is fanfic. 3. Star Wars Episode 7 will be fanfic. 4. Marvel movies are fanfic. That these are all paid fanfic makes them no less fanfic. In fact, fanfic written for free is only different in that no corporation stands to profit from its production directly; the owners of the canon properties, however, usually do profit from increased interest in their properties stemming at least partly from fanfic. It’s easy to forget that a great deal of the fans who kept interest in Star Trek alive after its 1969 cancellation were girls and women (and fans of color) forming or helping with fan clubs … including those who wrote Kirk/Spock fanfic and passed it around and got other girls and women interested in the canon. A significant portion of the Red Dwarf fanbase are also female fans who have long enjoyed discussing the relationships and writing about them (including pre-internet). I myself got into watching it about 20 years ago. But fanfic writers aren’t just straight white women, or perhaps even mostly that category. A lot, including in RD, are lesbian or bisexual or transgender women; there are fans of color who write too. There are even some men writing and reading fanfic. A lot of fanfic is sexual, and that’s okay. A lot of mainstream entertainment, including authorized fanfic, is also sexual, mostly stories told by the white and male and straight. Fanfic is largely from other POVs. Both are cool; I love Marvel movies and almost any Sherlock retelling (I spent a lot of the 90s reading published pastiches from Nick Myers, Laurie King, and the like). I also like reading Lister/Rimmer. Neither canon nor fanfic diminishes my enjoyment of or interferes in my grasp of the other. If you ran into a “militant” fan at all, I’d say they’re minority. In 30 years in various fandoms from the tiny (my boyfriend and I liking BTTF) to the huge (X-Files!) I can remember all the militants I’ve dealt with just because they were so sparse. On a side note: What is a simple joke to some people dealing it out isn’t always a joke to the butts of it, especially when they’re being made that butt increasingly in mainstream media. If someone had come along in the 90s and used my romantic Trek fanfic that I wrote for free to make myself and fellow fans happy the way Caitlin Moran used Sherlock slash, for example, I would have been mortified and angry. It’s hard to get people to laugh at themselves when so many other people have been laughing at them already for a while.
Just putting the finishing touches to some Cucumber slash fic, where I heavily hint that Henry and Lance are actually gay! It’s a bit *out there*, so it might upset a few people.
It’s very damaging to turn a friendship into a couple just cause they’ve looked at each other, Peter. Well, yeah, especially given that Anniescribe is a slash writer (I seem to remember?) and was being sarcastic. Excellent. “It’s us vs them! Get us!” Good of Ian to rally two new slash writers into the fold, really.
I have no intention of getting back into this again, but I appreciate annie’s post and it deserves a response. All I want to point out is that – as Ridley mentioned above – the “target” of the joke, such as it is, wasn’t slash fiction in general, it was the specific subset of readers/writers who get nasty with people who disagree with them. I’d also just like to point out that there’s no such thing as “G&T says”. If you’re pissed off with this article, you’re pissed off with *me* – it’s not fair on the four other admins or the scores of commenters to lump them all together. It’s evidently confusing – I saw a Tumblr post that said “some dick wrote an article mocking us and then called us all barnacles”. G&T isn’t a gestalt, it’s just a bunch of individuals.
“Good meeting.” Lister says he’s not gay. The context in which he says it makes it unlikely that he’s bisexual either. Mirror Lister might be what with him having a moustache or whatever. However, that’s in a deleted scene. There could be an argument for Rimmer what with his self-loathing beast and low self. And I could see the gay subtext thang being read into Rimmer’s attitude towards Ace hanging out with Lister and the reject from a gay pride disco line. I’m not sure Symes having the conversation can be mansplaining just because he’s having the discussion with a woman he disagrees with. —- Now, while “it’s just a joke” isn’t a good enough defence, I think it’s been misread as the target being slash writers rather than a jibe at inflexible people who take their own headcanon as gospel against evidence to the contrary. Don’t frequent many Tumblrseseses so I can only recall Paddon commenting on it a while back. Haven’t seen it myself yet such people sound like a valid target eye em oh. Reminds me of that guy on YouTube who misheard “miladdo” as “mulatto” and despite Ellard et al correcting him the reply basically amounted to “I know what I heard.” Personally, it’s been an interesting read all round. Kinda odd that anniescribe’s barnacle crack has somehow transformed into the collective opinion of everyone here for lordvalerymimes overnight though. A few months ago, The Mary Sue posted an article on “The Fetishisation Of Gay Men By Women In The Slash Community” that could be worth a look. It’s dealing with the idea that female writers are hijacking the the experience of actual gay men but it uses an image of Holmes and Watson and the comments section goes into the fiction side of things. The embracing of the barnacle term was meant to be light-hearted, I’m pretty sure I tagged a wink onto my Tumblr post when I brought it up, but the internet sucks for conveying sarcasm.
Holy crap… you guys completely and utterly had me until #6 (especially since I’m reading this three days later)! I’m sitting here freaking out about all the information I had wrong in the Encyclopedia! Well done!
I think it’s a shame that this got lost in the middle of everything… …Personally, I think there’s a great deal to be said on the subject of whether the slash community feel comfortable as part of the fandom as a whole, or why they might feel marginalised or mocked and what can be done to remove any genuine nastiness towards slash fans (something that this site has never partaken in)… I am just one of many commenters on this site and have nothing to do with the running of it, but I’d like to see lordvalerymimes stick around. We’re not horrid people and we discuss many things! I’d actually be really interested in a forum thread being started about fanfic and/or slash as it’s not something I know very much about, and as long as it’s all kept civil then I think communication can only help. I don’t like the thought that anyone feels like an outsider within the RD fandom bubble, that makes me sad. I have genuine respect for anyone who is able to write, especially for others, it’s something that I don’t feel very confident in doing at all. What you folks write might not be my cup of tea, but doesn’t mean that I can’t appreciate the skills behind it. The fan club has tried to include fan-fic in the magazine that we put out to members wherever possible – when it’s submitted, which isn’t often the case sadly. We have on occasion reached out (Via Carrie) to ask for submissions to include. It’s not much, but we do what we can to include everyone. Anyway, I’m going to bugger off with my rainbows and unicorns now, but I hope that Val and any of the other Tumblr people still reading this at least consider what I’ve said… at the very least we all have one thing in common!
I might write a fiction about caitlin moran called torn apart by wolves. It’s more slasher than slash though.
Yeah, it seems like some folks perceive G&T as Neanderthal-esque creatures huddled in a cave, only coming out to spout shapeless abuse and bash things with clubs. Just because sexual swear words such as ‘bollocks’, ‘wanker’ and ‘etc.’ have been used, and a supposedly ‘bitter’ attitude… pahh 99.9% of all writings on here have been in good fun. Also, Red Dwarf as an entity (the show itself, plus the community and anything Dwarf-related you can think of) has been hugely enriched by what the G&T team have achieved over the years. This shouldn’t be forgotten!
“In real life, I don’t believe that sexuality is as clear cut as “gay”, “straight” and “bi” – these are societal constructs, and each individual falls somewhere on a sliding scale. Anyone can fall in love with anyone, and anyone can want to shag anyone.” Here here. I teach about sexual health and sexuality to kids ranging from year 9 to year 12, and this has summed it all up for me.
“There is a difference between gentle ribbing and bullying. The people on this site have yet to learn the difference.” That’s an insulting personal slight toward the G&T team. I have been a follower of this site for 10 years and even though I appreciate that people have their own tastes, to call them bullies is grossly unfair and unfounded. I have always found them to be intelligent and reasoned people. You only have to listen to any DwarfCast to understand their banter and camaraderie. I’ve known real bullies, experienced it first hand. You’re entitled to your opinion, but, personally, if I found any of these people to be bullies, I’d never visit the website again. To accuse them of being bullies and then return to check out their articles doesn’t seem morally right somehow. And you don’t have to read the comments section after reading an article. Please think more carefully and be prepared to back up your claim before making accusations of that nature.
This was a funny article. (I liked the ‘imm’ bit the most.) And it prompted an interesting debate. Good work, Ian Symes. Like a couple of other commenters, I didn’t know that Red Dwarf slash fiction existed before I read this. Or at least, I didn’t know for a fact. I sort of guessed, because there seems to be slash fiction about most things. Holmes and Watson. Blackadder and Baldrick. (I haven’t seen any about Steptoe and Son… But there must be someone out there…) Anyway, as a great big fan of the first 6 series (yes, I’m that type of RD fan), I see how Rimmer and Lister develop respect and an almost brotherly love for one another. All it takes is a bit of extrapolation and some jittering hormones, and bang. They’re deep throating each other in front of the Cat who’s wanking with a finger up his bum. It’s not the type of thing I’d usually encounter as I don’t really like to read about (or see) sexual adventures outside of porn. (Inside of porn it’s too dark to read.) But, as a great man once said to another great man while they were both at it, “What’s the harm in it?” So – is there any slash fic about the Taiwan Tony vending machine? Because I would probably read that. If it was funny.
>So – is there any slash fic about the Taiwan Tony vending machine? Because I would probably read that. If it was funny. No, but there’s an actual episode where Lister fucks a vending machine. Who needs fan fiction?
>No, but there’s an actual episode where Lister fucks a vending machine. Yes, but was it funny? So there is a definite gap in the market for a Taiwan Tony fan/slash fiction. I’m thinking a Prometheus style prequel with a production line of racist vending machines, an inevitable – but unsuccessful – recall, a growth in intelligence (not too much, obviously), a bit of space loneliness and Bob’s your uncle! Logjammin’. I could call it ‘Incomplete Recall.’
In light of this controversy, we’re shutting down the High & Low brand. It will return as G&T On Sunday.
The name will never be said out loud or written down (‘G & T On Sunday’), but from now on whenever you think of High & Low think… G & T On Sunday.
