Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum Doctor Who – Series 5 – Broadcast Discussion (NO SPOILERS)

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  • #110010
    redhead85
    Participant

    > I found it amusing when they turned the joke back on him in The Lodger. “Not on my watch. I’m the Doctor, I am the oncoming storm and…you meant the football, didn’t you…?”

    I did snort with laughter at that bit. And I’d say that was a bit of piss-taking on Curtis’s part.

    #110013
    pfm
    Participant

    > The Doctor’s challenge speech to the ships really gave me the chills

    I really loved this too. I don’t think anyone but Matt could have delivered it in that way either, at the right level of fearlessness but not so grand that you lose the fact that it’s the Doctor and not just a shouting actor.

    > And I’d say that was a bit of piss-taking on Curtis’s part.

    ‘The Lodger’ was the Gareth Roberts episode. Get it right, girl! :)

    #110015
    redhead85
    Participant

    > ‘The Lodger’ was the Gareth Roberts episode. Get it right, girl! :)

    *facepalm* Never write about piss-taking WHILST pissed. Never a good idea…

    #110016
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    The speech scene was great… but, in retrospect, makes no sense. The Doctor seemingly persuades them to go to war with each other so they all bugger off, apparently to have a massive ruck. We later find out that they’re all chums.

    #110018
    Andrew
    Participant

    For me, that’s why that scene makes PERFECT sense. It’s a speech so sharply written that it’s entirely credible as a plot development, while at the same time the content illustrates the very reason they’ve clubbed together against him. He thinks he’s cleverly pitted them against each other, but it turns out that his world-saving bravado is meaningless – they’re sat waiting for the Pandorica to open just like he is. They were going to wait regardless.

    They just need him to *think* he’s been successful in his speechifying, so he’ll stick around for the opening. It undercuts the Doctor entirely, rendering something that’s been a key skill useless at exactly the right moment.

    Made sense to me.

    #110019
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >They were going to wait regardless.

    So why turn up thirty minutes before the opening?

    >so he’ll stick around for the opening.

    Was there ever really a chance that he wouldn’t?

    #110020
    Andrew
    Participant

    >> They were going to wait regardless.

    > So why turn up thirty minutes before the opening?

    Bazillions of ships arriving at the same place from all across time and space…I think we can describe turing up half an hour before the opening as ‘on time’.

    But the answer, to me, is “to lock the Doctor in place”.

    Letting the Doctor think they’re having a ruck so as to strengthen his position on the ground – making it even more certain that he’ll place himself directly between the Pandorica and them, where he wants to be AND where they want him – adds up as far as I’m concerned.

    Turning up at the last moment wasn’t an option, since the stones were transmitting and the Doctor knew things would be on the way. Showing up at the last second, he might not have placed himself where he did.

    >> so he’ll stick around for the opening.

    > Was there ever really a chance that he wouldn’t?

    He might have gone for the TARDIS. Not to flee, but to work. Was it a big chance? Maybe not. But you don’t build a strategy and then leave a gap if you can help it. Sure he might have run (River asks him to). He might have come up with another idea if he’d had the chance, something that took him away from the doors of the Pandorica.

    If he’d run off to the TARDIS – him instead of River, and that ain’t outside the realms of possibility – the whole thing fails. Drop in Daleks and Cybermen and you fix him in place. Taking a stand is what this Doctor does. And he takes it between foe and quarry. No foe means room for fluctuation.

    Ah well, anyway – as with anything like this it’s basically possible to argue either side within the fiction. It either ‘feels’ right or it doesn’t. (The cause of the Doctor being stranded in The Lodger never felt right to me, ‘explanation’ or not.) If it doesn’t, it doesn’t. Just did to me.

    #110022
    pfm
    Participant

    I think I would have preferred less enemies in the room at the end. Just one of each race would have been a lot better, and definitely not as many races (the Judoon and Silurians are so obviously there to make up the alien-y numbers). The supreme Dalek trundling out of the shadows flanked by a Cyberman and a Sontaran, perhaps. Or maybe just the Dalek representing all of them. It would have made it more personal.

    Theory for next week – we’ll come back to Amy and Auton-Rory and Amy will come around; she’ll be alright due to some timey-wimey thing stopping her from being killed OR it’s similar to Back To The Future where she knew she was going to be shot so wore something to protect her, even if she only knew to put it on subconsciously, the memories of what the Doctor told her when she was seven (what we will see him tell her in ‘The Big Bang’) filtering through…

    More emotional stuff with Amy and Auton-Rory where they wonder whether they can stay together in Roman times, even though he’s a bloody Auton. The Doctor or River will eventually come for her and she has to leave him, cue more tears.

    #110023
    hummingbird
    Participant

    By rights, once the Doctor is safely (if temporarily) disposed of, the Daleks, Cybermen, et al should all get down to kicking seven shades of crap out of each other – anything else would be OOC.
    That I would like to see. But it ain’t gonna happen.

    #110024
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    OR it’s similar to Back To The Future where she knew she was going to be shot so wore something to protect her, even if she only knew to put it on subconsciously, the memories of what the Doctor told her when she was seven (what we will see him tell her in ‘The Big Bang’) filtering through…

    Oh damn, I must have left it on the dresser…

    #110030
    redhead85
    Participant

    Awesome awesome awesome! LOVED the playing around with time.

    The bits that really touched me:

    1) Rory choosing to wait 2000 years for the woman he loves.
    2) The Doctor talking to the sleeping Amelia – “I thought you might remember me. Stupid old Doctor.” Fantastic stuff. He’s never seemed so ancient and tired to me.

    Question – the ‘sad/reminiscent’ music – wasn’t that used at the end of Tennant’s last episode? If so, I found the continuation really touching. Lovely piece of music.

    #110031
    redhead85
    Participant

    Oops double post. Clearly my laptop is very excited.

    #110032
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Big spoilers ahead:

    They used the Kryten time gag from The Inquisitor to get The Doctor out of the Pandorica!

    Okay, I’m sure it wasn’t intentional. It’s not difficult to come up with that idea for timey-wimey stories. It makes things really confusing and a bit of an easy get out (with time travellers you could use that to get someone out of trouble every time if you wanted. Not that they do that often in Who.). It’s a plot device that I think works better in the more comedic universe of Red Dwarf though… but with all the other time stuff in this episode it was interesting nonetheless.

    Just using the sonic screwdriver to open an unopenable box though….

    Oh well.

    Wonderfully entertaining and interesting episode overall. Some terrible plot resolution though.

    Bad stuff:
    – People vanish from time. Completely. Unless you want a threat to be regenerated by Pandorica light* in future in which case they leave convenient 3 dimensional solid ‘echoes’.

    – Exploding Tardis conveniently in placed with just the right amount of distance/space to act as an artificial sun. Unless that was intentional by River or whoever hijacked the Tardis…. (there are still dangling threads yet to tie, to be fair.)

    – Many are deleted from exitence except our heroes who are conveniently in the eye of the storm. Why? How?

    – Planting a memory somehow magics the Doctor back from the other side. Okay, I get that she’s absorbed a lot of ‘crack energy’ but… how does that work? That’s as bad as the rejuve gag in the episode with the flying balls. No, no, no.

    Good stuff:
    – The time stuff. That really was interesting. I’ve often thought the fact Doctor Who hardly ever uses time travel except as a plot device to get people from a to b was a shame, so this was really welcome. And that was a long sentence.

    -Tying up stuff from other episodes.

    -Silly dancing.

    -Fez shooty bit.

    -Amy (almost) says future Rimmer’s line from Stasis Leak!

    So an entertaining episode overall. But that plot resolution at the end….Dear me…

    *I actually didn’t mind the regenerative affect of the light and it’s method in bringing Amy back. It makes sense that a box created by beings, some with the most evil minds to have exited, would want to create a hell for the person imprisoned. Constant regeneration with no escape… that’s pretty nasty…

    #110029
    NitroChrisUK
    Participant

    Well what a big old pile of pants that turned out to be.

    EDIT

    “Well what a big old pile of pants that turned out to be.” is a lie

    #110033
    ori-STUDFARM
    Participant

    …and so the Doctor filled in Amy’s crack!

    Sorry…..I’ve been waiting weeks to type that.

    There were many things that slightly narked as I was watching the finale, but overall, it didn’t bother me. I enjoyed it!

    Agree with the “bad stuff” from ChrisM’s above post……Also, Rory waited for 2000 years and was still wearing the Roman centurian uniform up until WW2. Then he decides to upgrade his clothing to blend in.

    #110035
    pfm
    Participant

    > Just using the sonic screwdriver to open an unopenable box though….

    It was always meant to be openable with the sonic screwdriver, that’s how I see it. The Daleks, Cybes et al (or whoever really created the Pandorica) didn’t expect the screwdriver to be anywhere but inside.

    I loved a LOT of it, especially Matt, Karen and Arthur’s performances. Matt in particular giving us his very best and, for me, selling the Doctor as, well, the Doctor more than Tennant ever did and probably Eccleston too. Love love loved his quiet scenes with Amy, both young and old. And a great big HA to anyone who stubbornly believed that scene in Time of Angels was a continuity error!

    Does it all make sense?? No. Did we get all the resolution we wanted?? No (though we should have guessed he wouldn’t reveal River yet, this wasn’t really her story). It entertained me, that’s the main thing, and I can’t wait to watch it again in HD.

    #110036
    Rad
    Participant

    More garbled than Journey’s End and nowhere near as fun. I think we’ve all become used to RTD making us worry about every character in his season finales and all we had was a stone Dalek before the inevitable, impossible reboot bit. Disappointing stuff. This series really has been a bit of a lightweight and in my opinion the first series of the new run not to have a great episode. A lot of very good ones but nothing really special.

    #110037
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    This series really has been a bit of a lightweight and in my opinion the first series of the new run not to have a great episode.

    You, sir, are certifiably insane.

    #110038
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    I enjoyed it A LOT, but I couldn’t help thinking of the mainstream audience being uttery, utterly bewildered by it. It was just as batshit crazy as anything RTD has done, with the disadvantage that casual viewers really wouldn’t be able to follow much of it. I realise that most of the people in this thread aren’t casual viewers, but the majority of the 6 million people who watch this weekly are. Not what I expected from a season finale, more what I expected from a mid-season episode.

    It didn’t make much sense which I was surprised by. You could argue that time travel stories rarely do, but Blink, to use an exhausted example, makes perfect sense. A

    Who was the voice in the TARDIS? Are we going to get a definitive answer, or is this another case of “Who was the woman in The End of Time?”

    Journey’s End and The Parting of the Ways were better. It was about 2673 times better than The Last of the Time Lords though.

    #110039
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    Rad’s handle is incredibly ironic, considering.

    #110040
    pfm
    Participant

    > Who was the voice in the TARDIS? Are we going to get a definitive answer, or is this another case of “Who was the woman in The End of Time?”

    Both of these questions will be answered, I’m sure.

    As for this series not having a truly great episode…I can see why someone might come away from it with that opinion, mainly because there haven’t been big standouts of pure amazingness like we saw in series 1-4 (many of those, of course, coming from Moffat, and Cornell’s two stories). What we did get was a standard that was high throughout (save for Victory) and thankfully free of the embarrassing bollocks that also plagued the RTD era (again, spitfires in space…).

    What we need for series 6 is an extra-awesome effort from at least one of the other writers. Toby Whithouse, Gareth Roberts and particularly Simon Nye did commendable jobs this series but we really need someone to come in next series and…do a Moffat. ‘Amy’s Choice’ was the closest we came to that this time.

    #110041
    hummingbird
    Participant

    I’ve just watched it for the second time and I’m still blown away by the scale of the awesome.

    Too many wonderful moments to mention …. but the scene at Amelia’s bedside has to be the greatest thing ever – can I have Smith’s babies now, please?

    Any plot niggles I have are just that – niggles.

    #110042

    I just watched it because I was on my way to a They Might Be Giants concert when it was aired, and I must say it’s my favourite finale out of the 5 series and the specials. Then again, I thought the last Christmas special was a bit naff, and according to my friends-who-are-Who-fans it was really good.

    Matt Smith had me as a fan right from the Eleventh Hour, he’s been just wonderful. Also the lack of a whole Rose-type romance thing let me enjoy this series a helluvalot more than the previous series.

    #110043
    ori-STUDFARM
    Participant

    The thing for me that Matt Smith does well is to play the Doctor as both a youthful and young life loving individual and an aged wisened timelord……often in scenes that followed on from each other. He is totally convincing as both and is exactly how the Doctor should be played. I can see why he was cast in this role…..could it possibly have been anyone else!!?

    (Please, DON’T answer that!!)

    #110044
    pfm
    Participant

    > could it possibly have been anyone else!!?

    Unlike with Tennant I’m really dreading Matt’s departure, even now with it (hopefully) being many years down the line. Who exactly could follow this portrayal?? It probably would take someone like Eccleston, a total contrast in tone and no nonsense, for it to be even worth bothering with a 12th Doctor.

    The way Matt combines newborn giraffe-like actions, your history professor trying to be cool, an old war hero who’s gone a bit loopy, somebody’s home and the lights are flickering with genius. He IS the Doctor in a way that very few have been before him.

    #110045
    MANI506
    Participant

    ‘jump starts the second big bang?!’

    Brilliant end to the most consistently good series of Dr Who yet in my opinion. Even Cordon didn’t ruin it.

    #110048
    Fluffy Wok
    Participant

    Disappointing stuff. This series really has been a bit of a lightweight and in my opinion the first series of the new run not to have a great episode. A lot of very good ones but nothing really special.

    Were we watching the same stuff?

    I loved about 95% of that. As a finale it had a lot going for it, the potentially confusing time travel was handled well and it answered some bits well while leaving enough questions to suitably intrigue and irritate. The married couple travelling with the Doctor is an interesting dynamic to explore and I look forward to the exploration of River Song’s background.

    Matt Smith has totally captured the character of the Doctor as the irrerevant, dark , damaged, mind-game playing old man that is desperate to survive. The boy can act like he’s fifty years older than he is and its a joy to watch.

    Having said that it is quite amusing to see how the Doctor seems to be extermination proof. I suppose its the whole thing that he can’t be killed the same way twice, Tennant survived a several hundred foot fall through glass which would have killed Baker, Tennant had already been exterminated so it just mostly killed Smith.

    #110052
    Danny Stephenson
    Keymaster

    Well that was a bit fucking good wasn’t it? Sorry I’m late to the discussions. Spoilers are hard to avoid…

    This was my first full series of Doctor Who, I’ve stuck at it, and although i’ve only seen a handful on broadcast, I’ve watched them in at least the same week so IT COUNTS.

    I’ve seen snippets of other people playing the Doctor, briefly, but I really haven’t seen anyone play a character with so many facets. Brooding, moody, and downright mental at times, and yet energetic, sympathetic and downright mental at times.

    I have to agree with Hummingbird’s comments about the bedside ‘talk’, and I don’t know whether I am just remembering people telling me that Matt’s incarnation is more akin to the Older more classic Doctors, but that scene. I was watching and hearing an old man, in his ‘final’ hour and that was really powerful to me. I also guessed the ‘old, new, borrowed, blue’ thing early on as well. Was fairly pleased with myself there.

    From what I’ve seen from Steven Moffat’s stuff outside of Who I’ve always found intriguing and extremely clever, so wasn’t worried about Who (and as I understand, no one else seemed to be, either)

    So for my first series, it was brilliant really brilliant fucking awesome.

    #110056
    ori-STUDFARM
    Participant

    Saw this on another forum…….

    ……looks like the crack in time to me!!

    http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2010/06/image-of-the-day-the-ghost-snake-of-the-milky-way.html

    #110072
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    > So for my first series, it was brilliant really brilliant fucking awesome.

    <Cyberman>
    Excellent!
    You will be like ussss
    </Cyberman>

    #110104
    Nakrophile
    Participant

    I haven’t rally enjoyed any of the new Who series… well, the Eccleston one was okay but Tennant was awful. However I have very much enjoyed Matt Smith and this series. That is all I have to say.

    #110106
    Rad
    Participant

    I really have to stand by my comment above. I really don’t think there has been a 5/5 fantastically brilliant episode in Series 5. Certainly no Blink or Human Nature/Family of Blood.

    And the series has been a lightweight. The series finale had no bad guy. Most of the series had no bad guy. The Dream Lord or whatever Toby Jones’ character was called was a Stone of Hallucination +4, Van Gogh was battling a very unimpressive invisible bird that couldn’t see. I suppose the Silurian episode had a good villain because Welsh people having tedious dilemnas with lizard things gave me a horrible flashback to Series 1 of Torchwood. The Hungry Earth had some spaceship that had a misunderstanding or something. God knows. The Weeping Angels? The Weeping Idiots more like. Her eyes are closed, do what you always do when their eyes are closed. Send them back in time! What? Snap their necks? Oh okay. And the finale was just the Doctor in a museum for an hour while a Stone Dalek showed up and shot him but didn’t kill him for no clear reason and then River Soong killed it with a Gun of Plot Convenience after telling the Dalek her name.

    This series has never made any sense. The bomb in Doctor Bracewell, torturing the Star Whale for no possible reason, Amy remembering the Doctor makes him magically cross whatever impenetrable thing he couldn’t cross. In fact everything in the Series Finale didn’t make any sense. Rather than being a crack in the universe I think there’s been a crack in Moffat’s logical thinking. And something. And stuff.

    Though I have to admit even though I don’t think there was a truly great episode, it has been always very good (apart from the Star Whale episode) and is the most consistent series of New Who to date. and Matt Smith and Karen Gillan are wonderful. But with the loss of the Time War mythos and the low number of decent adversaries this series did feel lightweight to me.

    #110107
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    It doesn’t really seem like you’ve been paying proper attention to the series, Rad. Pity.

    #110108
    pfm
    Participant

    What Moffat achieved was something DIFFERENT in terms of series arc, villains etc. I’m so glad it didn’t follow the formula of series 2-4 of all the shit episodes in the middle and the dire dire finales, along with taking the companions’ characters in stupid directions (Donna was okay), too much flash and no depth, all the cheese (of which we saw faaaaaaaar far less this series, you’ve got to admit) etc. etc. etc.

    Bottom line is…this was Moffat’s first year as showrunner and it clearly wasn’t without incident behind the scenes, so let’s see what series 6 brings!!

    #110109
    Jonsmad
    Participant

    “Amy remembering the Doctor makes him magically cross whatever impenetrable thing he couldn’t cross.”

    Amy grew up near a crack in spacetime caused by an exploding Tardis. When Rose did a bit of sniffing the old tardis juice for a short while she gained powers over life and death at at least the atomic level throughout all of spacetime, that lead to both the non exsistence of the nearby daleks and the permanent exsistence of Jack Harkness. Amy had years of inhaling a Tardis/Spacetime cocktail. Giving her a stronger mental ability to mess with the quantum mechanics of the edges of the newly known universe, creating a rent in the space-time continuum. A singularity, a point in the universe where the normal laws of space and time don’t apply. Using this magic door she allowed 1 immagrant in. There goes the universe!

    The series made sense, there is both high concept sci fi ideas based on the kind of science in the more head scratching chapters of a stephen hawkings book, and multi layered theme’s appealing explaining the same ideas to children and non scientific minds in a more poetic manner.

    Dr who episodes dont always need a big enemy.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Edge_of_Destruction

    I’m glad they broke the need for monster of the week, and moved on from time war mythos.

    #110110

    I, for one, am glad there wasn’t a Doctor-lite episode. Or was there one that I didn’t notice?

    #110111
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    But all of the Doctor-lite episodes so far have been brilliant – including the Moff’s own “Blink”. What kind of point are you trying to make?

    #110112
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    They have, but by the same token – Smith is so utterly brilliant that an episode without much of him in would have been a waste of a precious episode slot.

    It sounds terrible to say it, but we could actually cope without much Tennant for a week each year…

    #110113
    Andrew
    Participant

    > But all of the Doctor-lite episodes so far have been brilliant

    Turn Left was arse.

    #110114

    What Seb said. :)

    #110115
    hummingbird
    Participant

    They have, but by the same token – Smith is so utterly brilliant that an episode without much of him in would have been a waste of a precious episode slot.

    It sounds terrible to say it, but we could actually cope without much Tennant for a week each year…

    Indeed. I had issues with Tennant for most of his tenure, and I actually enjoyed ‘Blink’ all the more for his absence.

    #110116
    Ridley
    Participant

    Seems a lot of Smith praise requires pooping on Tennant…

    Dr who episodes dont always need a big enemy.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Edge_of_Destruction

    That episode smegging did.

    #110119
    pfm
    Participant

    > Turn Left was arse.

    You fucking moron.

    #110120
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    Turn left was a great concept. Granted, it could have been executed better if it had been written by anyone who wasn’t Russell T Davies, but “creepy pointing Spanish housemaid” aside I rather enjoyed it.

    #110121
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    >it could have been executed better if it had been written by anyone who wasn’t Russell T Davies

    I have a Chris Chibnall that disagrees with you.

    #110122
    pfm
    Participant

    Can’t think of anyone but Moffat who could have given it better treatment. And even then it might have gone all timey wimey and lost the emotional core. We will never know…

    #110123
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    I think it’s a shite concept. It’s meanders through a bunch of sequences showing different POV’s to the events of old episodes, tied together by Rose somehow having all the answers for no conceivable reason. People who like it no doubt look at the sombre tone and think it’s deep and thoughtful. It’s not.

    #110083
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    > tied together by Rose somehow having all the answers for no conceivable reason

    Except she works for Torchwood on Pete’s World, and by that point has been for at least two years.

    #110084
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    I think it’s a shite concept. It’s meanders through a bunch of sequences showing different POV’s to the events of old episodes

    How is that a shite concept?

    #110085
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Because it’s not actually a story. It’s a clip show.

    #110086
    Andrew
    Participant

    Showing old stories as they happen – differently this time – is a good concept. It’s why it’s been done so often. (To death, one might say.)

    Showing old stories to a character who doesn’t have a direct connection to much of it (“who are Torchwood and why do I care if they’re dying in space?”), and who only acts as witness rather than protagonist, is a rubbish concept.

    And doing a story about how ‘important’ a character is, only to discover the only useful thing they ever did was made an arbitrary decision based on traffic – after which they remained passive for the rest of their existence – is disastrous.

    Turn Left wasn’t a “Donna is special” episode, despite constantly repeating that it was. The actual message was “We’d be stuffed without the Doctor, and Donna would be stuffed along with the rest of us”. Which I don’t think came as news to anyone.

    Lots of good bits, but overall it’s a massively clumsy script.

    #110079
    pfm
    Participant

    > Lots of good bits, but overall it’s a massively clumsy script.

    Well you would know.

    #110101
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    If you’re going to be a cock end, pm, at least try to be a correct one.

    #110136
    pfm
    Participant

    Hey I’m simply referring to the fact that Andrew knows what he’s talking about regarding clumsy scripts, with him being a script editor and all.

    #110170
    Dave
    Participant

    Donna’s big decision in Turn Left isn’t Left or Right, it’s whether or not to help Rose on the promise of a better life which at the last minute she discovers she won’t live to enjoy and yet she does it anyway.

    If Donna is special it’s because she gaveth of her life so that we might live.

    Re-using elements and reappropriating them, does not a clip show make, go and watch TNG’s Shades of Gray: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNP3LM2GiDk
    that’s a fucking clip show. 17 minutes of new footage spread over 44 minutes with clips showing events that the character in question wasn’t party to the first time around.

    #110237
    Ben Paddon
    Participant
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