Favourite model or CG shot in all the Red Dwarf series?

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  • #238614

    Mr-Stabby

    Forgive the almost Jawscvmcdia-like thread idea :D

    I was watching Bodyswap for the first time in years t’other day, and i think the last time i watched it was the Re-mastered version. I was really impressed with how good the Starbug/Blue Midget chase sequence was. A lot of risky fly by wire stuff that could have so easily looked naff, especially with that rather small bread van Blue Midget model. But it works really well. I dunno why but i especially like the extreme closeup of the Midget just as they start the chase. It makes a tiny model look really good. The re-mastered version is shit by comparison. I think it also has the best Starbug crash too.

    People might disagree, but i also have to give props to the Rimmer Funeral CG sequence in ‘Stoke me a Clipper’. By today’s standards, the quality of the CG is laughable, but i remember really being taken in by it on original transmission, and though it hasn’t aged well, i think it still remains an ambitious bit of CG for TV for its time. I think if there’s one re-mastered episode they SHOULD have done, it was that one.

    #238615

    Warbofrog

    There was a literal Jawszvbnmcxz thread fairly recently, just to cover some bases:

    https://www.ganymede.tv/forums/topic/favourite-special-effect/

    I don’t remember what I thought of the Stoke coffins on original broadcast, but when I saw the episode repeated in the early 2000s I got literal chills at how shit they looked and couldn’t believe that had been allowed.

    #238619

    Katydid

    Siliconia as a whole was abnormally gorgeous, and had a really fantastic mix of practical and digital effects. The S.S. Vespasian in particular looked so good I couldn’t initially tell if it was a model or CG until I got to see it in HD.

    Almost makes me wish, with how much trouble XI/XII seemed to have with model shots, that we could see what a return to all-CG Dwarf would look like in the late 2010s.

    #238620

    Paul Muller

    Model shot: Incredibly tough one but I’d edge towards the establishing shot of Nova 5 in ‘Kryten’

    CG: Dead heat between ‘Tikka to Ride – Remastered’ and the cargo bay shots from Back to Earth

    Honourable non-series mention goes to The Mill’s movie test shot.

    #238621

    Dave

    The crashed Starbug in Dimension Jump still looks pretty spectacular.

    I also think the bit where Starbug is being tossed around and sucked into the swamp in Terrorform is quite smooth and impressive.

    The Nova 5 is a good shout too.

    CGI-wise, the Starbug separation in Tikka extended looks pretty good for its time. And obviously the stuff in the Dave era looks a lot more polished.

    #238623

    bloodteller

    For CGI, I’d say that one shot of the ship in Krytie TV. Maybe that’s an odd choice, but when I was younger I was legitimately convinced that it was a model-even now, it’s still fairly good-looking

    For models, there’s just so much good stuff that it’s hard to really have a favourite. If I had to pick though, I’d say the opening sequence from I-II probably

    #238624

    Warbofrog

    I remember someone confidently claiming on the Gunmen fan commentary that the flies buzzing around pestilence were the first CGI in Red Dwarf, or some such wording. True, or delete from my trivia bank?

    #238625

    Dave

    I guess it depends how you define CGI. Presumably earlier stuff like the tractor beam in Legion or the pool table in White Hole counts too.

    #238626

    Warbofrog

    I was thinking White Hole, but couldn’t remember exactly how the simulation looked and thought it might be trad animation masquerading as computer animation like Hitchhiker’s. But maybe it’s Red Dwarf’s Project Genesis moment.

    #238629

    Dave

    It could be traditional animation (a la Hitchhiker’s) I guess. There’s the top-down view with Red Dwarf at the bottom, the White Hole at the top and the planets in front of it that looks like fairly basic CGI, but I don’t know for sure.

    #238631

    Mr-Stabby

    I’d actually forgotten about the Terroform swamp stuff. That’s a mixture of really good and meh for me. The bug trying to escape from the swamp is really good stuff, yet the model supposedly being on the caterpillar tracks looked a little off methinks.

    #238632

    Dave

    There’s a shot or two in Terrorform where Starbug is being jerked around in the swamp that my eyes *always* read as a CGI Starbug because the movement is so smooth and the ship is so detailed. Even though I know it can’t be.

    #238656

    Paul Muller

    I just watched back the tractor beam sequence from Legion. Combined with some lovely model work, it’s up there with the best of the original 1-VI effects shots.

    #238674

    MANI506

    My wife laughed at the model shot of Starbug in the swamp but then she really enjoyed Back To Reality so it’s all good.

    #238675

    Stabbim the Skutter

    I really hate that the fans spent all those years going “No more CGI! We want models!”, then as soon as they get models there is a ridiculous amount of nitpicking and complaining, followed by “No more models! WE WANT CGI!!!”

    #238676

    Dax101

    CGI is great when it hits the right mark. but then if you look at the missiles in The Beginning, for 2012 that ain’t great CGI.

    BTE had some good CGI.

    #238678

    Ben Saunders

    Problem is we want the model work they did in the 90s, not the stuff they do now. I’d much rather they just went CGI now, and/or learned how to composite properly

    #238679

    Mr-Stabby

    Weren’t the missiles in ‘The Beginning’ models? They certainly had the look of models.

    #238680

    Paul Muller

    No, they’re CG – created by Gecko Animation.

    https://vimeo.com/57215517 – They show up in this reel at approx .51 secs.

    I actually think they work OK. They’ve made the effort to model and texture something that’s similar in style to the miniatures – which definitely helps. The flares are a bit static, but otherwise, not a bad shot.

    #238682

    Mr-Stabby

    Yikes, it’s been a while since i’ve seen the episode, but is that the final shot in the showreel? The rotating movement on those missiles is very awkward and jumpy. I remember the shot being better than that.

    I think the reason i thought they were models is that they use the same shot flipped later on in the episode, and i understand why you would do that if you’d done a model shot, but surely to render a shot of the same animation done from a different angle wouldn’t be too much of an expense.

    #238685

    Bargain Bin Holly

    I really hate that the fans spent all those years going “No more CGI! We want models!”, then as soon as they get models there is a ridiculous amount of nitpicking and complaining, followed by “No more models! WE WANT CGI!!!”

    Yep, I mean not only do I think a CGI Red Dwarf would still look like shit, I think the current Red Dwarf model is excellent. It just needs better shots and not zoom-in on the logo everytime. Is it impossible to get a crane again?

    #238686

    GlenTokyo

    They’ve got motion control, they just can’t do anything interesting because they won’t use the full ship. They seem to only use the bigature which only has one side and no engines.

    The bigature isn’t detailed enough either despite its size, which again limits the shots. It’s only as detailed as the cut down pencil, it’s just scaled up.

    #238715

    International Debris

    I really hate that the fans spent all those years going “No more CGI! We want models!”, then as soon as they get models there is a ridiculous amount of nitpicking and complaining, followed by “No more models! WE WANT CGI!!!”

    Well, the former is a reaction to good model shots and bad CGI, while the latter is a reaction to good CGI and bad model shots. So it seems reasonable in that sense.

    #238719

    Ben Saunders

    Yeah arguments like that are always pretty bizarre, like people saying “you complained Force Awakens was too similar then they gave you something different and you still complained!! what do you want!!”, like whether it’s similar or different isn’t really the issue, and whether it’s models or CGI really isn’t the issue. I would take quality models but I would also take quality CGI.

    #238722

    GlenTokyo

    The CGI guy on the documentaries seems to imply that they could make it look better with CGI but Red Dwarf is “about models” which I dislike as a stance.

    Red Dwarf is about Red Dwarf, and whatever device tells the story best should be used. From the available evidence, the models aren’t that device at the moment.

    Apart from Twentica I can’t think of any shots that needed models.

    I love models but the current crop and their filming is not doing model effects justice imo.

    #238733

    Ben Saunders

    Even the Twentica crash had dodgy compositing in the wormhole thing and ended up looking like CGI because of whatever the fuck they did with the sand when it impacted

    #238739

    tombow

    I apologize if I’ve completely missed the point here but… did RD ever really need more ship shots beyond what was filmed for Episode One? I mean…it’s a ship floating through black space..in a show centered around a few people bickering on it. I’m not sure I’d even notice if they just re used the same shots over and over.

    #238741

    Dave

    I watched Give & Take last night and after this recent conversation I was actually pleasantly surprised with the variety of different angles of the shots of Red Dwarf itself.

    I think that in the Dave era the close shot with the name panel stands out because it’s used so often in publicity and usually crops up at least once an episode, but it’s not like there aren’t other shots too.

    #238742

    Warbofrog

    >did RD ever really need more ship shots beyond what was filmed for Episode One?

    They update the aesthetic every few years which requires making new stock footage, but watching the ‘Raw FX’ on the DVDs, series one is mainly passes over Red Dwarf (used and unused), series two is mainly Blue Midget and series three is mainly Starbug passes and take-offs. When those are in the can, the rest is mainly episode-specific things.

    Apart from this shot, which wasn’t needed for an episode and they seemingly did just because they realised it would look nice:

    #238748

    Paul Muller

    Speaking as someone whose favourite DVD extras are the Raw Model FX reels, I’d disagree that they’re unimportant. Part of what makes RD fandom so diverse is that we’re often all appreciating it from different angles, be they concept, plot, jokes, performances – or Peter Wragg perilously balanced on a wooden plank, dangling a model spaceship around on a wire.

    That said, there’s definitely been extensive re-use of ship shots across the series. Without sitting down and making a huge list, multiple Starbug shots spring to mind (particularly in VII), as well as S1 ship passes showing up in II,III and IV, before it was replaced by the new (in my view inferior) miniature built for Series V.

    I do think if Doug could have got hold of the original S1 35mm rushes, those very first motion control passes of Red Dwarf would have fit perfectly into Series 10.

    #238749

    International Debris

    Yeah, it’s a real shame they weren’t able to use them. Not only would they have been better, but they would have given the Dave era a bit more of a unity with everything other than VIII. Particularly considering the CG version in IX being based on the original model.

    #238750

    Bargain Bin Holly

    Series III reused that shot of Starbug crash-landing into the snow planet from Marooned a lot (Bodyswap springs to mind)

    Plus the chase in Bodyswap features the same shot of Starbug crashing into a rock twice, same camera angle too.

    #238752

    Plastic Percy

    They certainly got their money’s worth on that shot of Starbug turning sharply left.

    #238760

    Dax101

    The new model effects for the show feel abit like the remastered stuff where yeah they can pull more off with advances of technology, but somehow that also brings limitations that the early shows could pull off much better.

    #238761

    Dax101

    Btw anyone see Rimmer loathing beast on The Model Units facebook page?

    #238763

    Bargain Bin Holly

    If they built a small set for the Starbug stairs that lead to the launch-pad it’d probably add to the scale. I’d rather we try and discuss how to make it better instead of completely scrapping everything for CGI.

    #238765

    Jawscvmcdia

    >They certainly got their money’s worth on that shot of Starbug turning sharply left.

    Here, I combined all the instances of this for you in a handy video:

    https://youtu.be/nzXGvHDyooI

    #238766

    Ben Saunders

    Clever use of it after the “wormskin rug” line.

    I’m also reminded of how inappropriate I find the laughter after Red Dwarf blows up in Demons & Angels. I mean I guess there is a joke there and maybe it was funnier in the studio.

    #238767

    Lily

    >I’m also reminded of how inappropriate I find the laughter after Red Dwarf blows up in Demons & Angels. I mean I guess there is a joke there and maybe it was funnier in the studio.

    “the chances of it actually blowing are about one in *kaboom* … one” is one of my most favourite lines in all of Dwarf. I even do that slightly weird thing where you mouth along silently with the line, in gleeful anticipation of what’s about to come. (Is that something other people do with favourite lines? I really hope so.)

    #238768

    GlenTokyo

    They obviously don’t have the budget to make the models better otherwise they would be.

    Less bluescreen would be a start, painted backdrop cloths for and starfields with interactive lighting would improve things no end. Some miniature sets, one to complete the launch pad, a new exterior landing bay door.

    That turntable only needs a 3 sided set and a floor and that’s basically what they had for the great landing shots in the early series.

    Also Doug gets bad advice, he needs to set someone like Mike Tucker on to at least plan stuff if not build anything. The 3D printed Starbug, that’s basically an advert for Voxeljet or whatever, and Red Dwarf has got nothing.

    Binder jetting is not a good way to do a Starbug model. Porous and brittle so you end up with a model that can’t take spray paint/ airbrushing well, that then breaks almost immediately. It’s also extremely expensive.

    Even something like FDM with a bit of work would give you a lighter, easier to repair and easier to paint model for a fraction of the price.

    A better use of 3D printing would be to make moulds that require little finishing, that you can then cast resin parts from cheaply.

    It’s generally my feeling towards Dave Dwarf in general, there needs to be more big personalities involved. It’s just Doug really now, deciding everything, with little to no other input. When you think it used to be Doug, Rob, Ed, and Peter Wragg obviously in the case of the models, and Mel Bibby talking to Peter Wragg so everything live action lines up.

    Doug can’t be expected to do everything correctly on his own.

    #238770

    GlenTokyo

    That’s not to say that no-one else in the production does anything just to clarify, just that Doug has one hand on every wheel at least.

    There’s just nobody to really just take the keys off him for a bit so ge can use his creative mind to work on the show and not the production issues.

    #238771

    Dax101

    I think his son Richard Naylor has abit of creative input. But I think for the most part Doug likes the creative freedom which is why he takes everything apon himself.

    Personally I don’t think it helps the show for Doug to go solo. But it is how it is I guess.

    #238772

    Ben Saunders

    >Is that something other people do with favourite lines? I really hope so.
    I do it also, and I remember doing it very recently but I can’t remember what with. I’m also sort of smiling when I do it. I’ve definitely done it with Dwarf before

    #238773

    Warbofrog

    that slightly weird thing where you mouth along silently with the line

    At least you weren’t appearing in Red Dwarf at the time.

    #238864

    Dax101

    Series 12 effects break down video.

    http://vfxmaking.com/article/red-dwarf-s12-axisvfx

    #238865

    Paul Muller

    Great find – fascinating stuff.

    #239059

    Katydid

    There’s that unused shot of Starbug flying over mountains. Suddenly looks a lot more CG-y than it did to me in the opening titles.

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