Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum More Dwarf? Digital Spy say YES! But with new writers…

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  • #3411
    thomasaevans
    Participant

    http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/cult/a152666/should-red-dwarf-return-again.html

    How do we feel about new writers boarding Red Dwarf?

    #97459

    Nahh. That really would be a step too far. They need to get an old writer back. It was such a good show when those two were together. While Doug alone is okay, I (personally) think that he took too much on with BtE. I know he has his eye on Directing, but if he does, it needs a fellow writer who he can trust, and that is Rob Grant.

    #97460
    littlesmegger
    Participant

    Already discussed this on here at this link:
    http://www.ganymede.tv/forum/2009/04/digital-spy-should-red-dwarf-return-again

    We decided Dwarf could take on a Doctor Who approach… team of writers, with Doug watching over keeping the series’ narrative ark in place.

    #97466
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >We decided Dwarf could take on a Doctor Who approach? team of writers, with Doug watching over keeping the series? narrative ark in place.

    Also known as Series VII.

    #97468
    Pongo
    Participant

    Rob Grant or nothing.

    #97472
    Carlito
    Participant

    I’m not bothered about Rob Grant returning especially. Top comedy writers/performers are usually “of their time”, in that they eventually simply lose touch with the modern comedy landscape/viewer… not in ALL cases, some manage to adapt and stay relevant, but in most cases very very funny people eventually fade away, in a shower of “you’re no longer funny” criticism.

    Maybe Doug can still write brilliant plots, but does not have his finger on the pulse of comedy anymore. Don’t get me wrong, BtE hit the spot for me, but it seems it didn’t for a lot of people. I think Doug writing the plots, with a younger comedy writer to provide added humour, could maybe work, as long as the overall tone is Doug’s Dwarf voice. I think even if Grant/Naylor were reunited, the show would still get criticised.

    Plus, those who say Grant provided the comedy to Doug’s sci-fi, I’d say check out the humour-barren Dark Ages, or The Strangerers.

    #97484
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    I’d happily write for Red Dwarf if they let me. Hell, Jump Leads is more or less a love-letter to Dwarf.

    #97494
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    >I?d happily write for Red Dwarf if they let me.

    I think that’s a given for pretty much anyone on here with any sort of comedy writing aspirations ;-)

    Anyway, as I said in the post-BTE Dwarfcast, I wouldn’t have a problem with other writers being brought in. But the problem with VII wasn’t, I think, bringing in other writers – it was bringing in writers who simply weren’t qualified enough. An approach whereby Doug oversaw the plotting of the series and scripted or co-scripted episodes, with one or two writers that were of genuine proven class either co-writing with him or actually getting full episodes to themselves, could work.

    #97506
    NoFro
    Participant

    As I said in the other thread, I don’t mind new writers coming in as long as they know Dwarf and respect it’s unique and witty comedy style. Some of the jokes in VII and VIII just seemed so out of place in Red Dwarf episodes.

    #97522
    Turk Thrust
    Participant

    > But the problem with VII wasn?t, I think, bringing in other writers – it was bringing in writers who simply weren?t qualified enough.

    Agree with this. The people who were brought in for Series VII really had mediocre CVs.

    Obviously Rob would be the ideal person to work with Doug as history has proved that they have the judgment to filter out each other`s shit ideas.

    If that wasn`t possible then I don`t think that just hiring a gag writer or 2 would solve things. I think that you would also need someone who knows about plot and characterization as Doug struggles with these at times.

    Perhaps a new director and editor would be useful too.

    #97525
    Dessie
    Participant

    Would any new writer be able to capture the characters? I have horrible visions of everyone complaining a new writer makes the characters do things they normally wouldn’t do.

    #97526
    Turk Thrust
    Participant

    Can Doug capture the characters now? Opinion seems to be very split on that one.

    #97528
    Dessie
    Participant

    I’d always argue that they’re Dougs characters so as the only creator left on the show whatever he wants them to do is in their character.

    Personally i think BtE portrayed them perfectly.

    #97530
    pfm
    Participant

    Comedy is harder to write on your own than when bouncing lines and ideas of someone else. It takes an utter genius like David Renwick to pull it off. Graham Linehan seems to manage it well enough, though the comedy magic will never be 100% there like it was when he wrote with Arthur Mathews.

    However, writing alone is probably preferrable with something like BtE, or indeed what the Movie would have been.

    #97532
    pfm
    Participant

    > Can Doug capture the characters now? Opinion seems to be very split on that one.

    Well, considering he got them bang on in BtE, then YES. They weren’t exactly the same because a) it wasn’t a sitcom format, b) it’s 9 years on.

    #97538
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    >Can Doug capture the characters now? Opinion seems to be very split on that one.

    Characterisation was perfect in BTE. Admittedly Cat and Kryten didn’t get to express much of it, but Rimmer was quintessentially Rimmer, and Lister showed genuine development.

    #97539
    Turk Thrust
    Participant

    Well some of the criticisms that I`ve seen levelled quite a bit are…

    Lister smiling at the thought of him and the cat dieing.
    Wacky Kryten.
    Whining Kryten.
    The characters not taking time to get used to being fictional.
    Rimmer murdering Katerina.
    Rimmer`s OTT panicking when seeing the squid on the monitor.
    The scene in the Kabin.
    The opening scene.

    I`m not sure whether I agree with all of the criticisms but I certainly think it was a long way from perfect.

    #97540
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    >Lister smiling at the thought of him and the cat dieing.

    I took that as him deliberately winding up Kryten.

    >Wacky Kryten.

    A brief moment of greeting his friends in a joyous manner? Eh, couldn’t see too much of a problem. Didn’t really square hugely with what we’d seen from him before, but then neither is the idea of him going on holiday in the first place – you could perhaps take it that in the nine year gap his programming has become increasingly broken.

    >Whining Kryten.

    I don’t much like whining Kryten, but you can’t exactly say it’s inconsistent with previous series.

    >The characters not taking time to get used to being fictional.

    The hallucination was trying to hide itself. This was foreshadowed by the “why aren’t there two holograms?” query being brushed off, innit.

    >Rimmer murdering Katerina.

    Rimmer can be a ruthless, get-to-the-top-at-all-costs bastard when he wants to be. He’s a big fan of war and warmongers, remember. I doubt he’d commit cold-blooded murder, but after being specifically given a reason why killing a hologram wouldn’t be considered murder, he acted out of cowardly self-preservation. See also his attitude to the wax-droids in Meltdown.

    Besides which, of course, there was an in-episode explanation and acknowledgement of certain moments being out of character, because it was the Creator pushing them to a certain point. If anything, Doug would have to know what the characters SHOULD be like in order to correctly acknowledge when they’re NOT being like that.

    >Rimmer`s OTT panicking when seeing the squid on the monitor.

    How is any level of panicking by Rimmer “OTT”? Perfectly in-character, I thought. And his complaining about having to watch them die specifically called to mind a similar bit in Future Echoes.

    >The scene in the Kabin.

    Deliberately acting out of character to try and fit in?

    >The opening scene.

    Not hugely funny, but I’m not sure what was out-of-character about it. A little regressive, I suppose, given that Lister got bored of winding up Rimmer years ago, so I’ll give you that one.

    #97541
    Carlito
    Participant

    I liked the opening scene.

    And for a moment I thought they were going for a VERY dark tone with a suicidal Lister… the way he went searching specifically for food he was allergic too, coupled with already having seen the “me and the Cat are gonna die” line in the preview, I thought we were getting a Lister who is actively, deliberately self-destructing and no longer cares… which in a way is true. When he realises he is hallucinating, he does say that being inside the hallucination has made him want to live again.

    #97542
    Turk Thrust
    Participant

    > I took that as him deliberately winding up Kryten.

    That probably was the intention but personally I don`t think it was well executed.

    > How is any level of panicking by Rimmer ?OTT?? Perfectly in-character, I thought. And his complaining about having to watch them die specifically called to mind a similar bit in Future Echoes.

    Perhaps it wasn`t helped by Chris`s performance but I found myself cringing during that scene. I also don`t think it makes his behaviour believable when a few seconds later he has forgotten all about it. I think the fan edit of that scene works soooo much better.

    > Deliberately acting out of character to try and fit in?

    Of course but I think, as others have said, that we were seeing Chris Barrie in that scene. Not Rimmer.

    > I don?t much like whining Kryten, but you can?t exactly say it?s inconsistent with previous series.

    Not inconsistent with Series VII certainly but Robert hadn`t really whined too much before that I don`t think.

    > Rimmer can be a ruthless, get-to-the-top-at-all-costs bastard when he wants to be. He?s a big fan of war and warmongers, remember. I doubt he?d commit cold-blooded murder, but after being specifically given a reason why killing a hologram wouldn?t be considered murder, he acted out of cowardly self-preservation. See also his attitude to the wax-droids in Meltdown.

    I don`t disagree.

    > Not hugely funny, but I?m not sure what was out-of-character about it. A little regressive, I suppose, given that Lister got bored of winding up Rimmer years ago, so I?ll give you that one.

    I just don`t think that the original Lister, from Series I-VI would have gone out of his way to pull a prank like that. Funny or not.

    > Besides which, of course, there was an in-episode explanation and acknowledgement of certain moments being out of character, because it was the Creator pushing them to a certain point.

    A problem that a lot of people seem to have though is that if you have them doing out of character things in an unreal world then perhaps it all just suggests that it wasn`t a good idea in the first place? Obviously the roughly 50% who enjoyed the specials will think differently which is fair enough.

    #97543
    pfm
    Participant

    > I think the fan edit of that scene works soooo much better.

    Oh your programmes, your programmes…

    #97545
    Carlito
    Participant

    > I just don`t think that the original Lister, from Series I-VI would have gone out of his way to pull a prank like that. Funny or not.

    What, the guy who took to growing mould and naming it to get under Rimsy’s skin?

    “It drives Rimmer nuts. And driving Rimmer nuts is what keeps me going.”

    #97547
    pfm
    Participant

    I think the whole point is that Lister’s ways of winding Rimmer up have become a bit pathetic and less funny. Post-BtE, now that he’s got more to live for, we can only assume he won’t be pulling stuff like the tomato stunt any more.

    #97551
    Carlito
    Participant

    I think it’s just the development. Lister doesn’t hate Rimmer, but he does want to get a rise out of him. He wants to show he is truly committed to getting a reaction and getting under his skin, whereas Rimmer has learned not to bite anymore. Yet, by his suppressed anger, Lister knows he has gotten to him. And it’s about his only amusement in life. Therefore, he goes to great lengths to achieve his goal and Rimmer, loathe to admit it, probably respects Lister’s creativity.

    #97556
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Also, since this is nine years on, he is probably running out of schemes to get on Rimmer’s wick. Besides… Lister is bored. I think creating these little excursions for himself, treking through the ship to hunt down tomatoes, etc, is as much to give himself something to do as anything.

    I got the impression that he got up to other pranks on Rimmer off-screen anyway. We just didn’t see most of it because it just wasn’t part of the respective story.

    As for whiny Kryten, that didn’t really bother me as it was only brief. The main thing that irritated me in series VII was just how long that “You’re lyiiiiiiiing!” scene went on. I even found it amusing to start with, but it got old fast. (It didn’t bother me that much in my most recent rewatch though.)

    I wasn’t comfortable with the killing of Katarina either (although I understand it’s a favourite part with most people.) Seb’s answer makes some sense, particularly taking Lister’s Roy Batty style killing of the Creator into account. Kryten’s “I did” comment in response to Rimmer’s “She didn’t see that coming!” discounts that though. He saw it as in Rimmer’s character, although I thought it a stretch myself.

    (His ruthlessness in Waxworld worked for me as Rimmer caused their deaths indirectly. He wasn’t trying to slaughter his own droids, merely defeat the enemy. He did accept it all as fatalaties of war way to easily though. He’s not completely heartless though or his mind scan in Justice wouldn’t have condemned him. He obviously compares human life above droids though. Holograms though… they’re a curious hybrid between the two.. and I’m not convinced he would have been so cold in that case. Being one himself.)

    The scene with Rimmer pannicking…. I have mixed feelings there. For him to go into such a pannic attack hearkened back to Rimmerworld when he was having his nervous disorder. On the other hand, it didn’t affect him that way during a similar scene when he saw the Despair Squid approaching them. He was relatively calm in fact. While I think his response when the guys were attacked fitted well, I think his earlier reaction in seeing a blob on the screen was way overdone and could’ve done with snipping off.

    #97560
    Turk Thrust
    Participant

    > What, the guy who took to growing mould and naming it to get under Rimsy?s skin?

    I can see what you`re saying but I would say that leaving mould to grow is much more believable. Firstly, because lots of people have actually done that when they`ve been behaving slobbily. Secondly, because it takes little or no effort. And finally, because eating a food that you hate and are allergic to in order to sneeze is a terrible idea imo. Perhaps if I found it funny I wouldn`t be complaining as much though.

    On a mildly related note, I found it disappointing (being selfish probably) that neither of the bunk scenes had any real depth to them character wise. Some of my favourite stuff from the early series contains Rimmer and Lister discussing deep and meaningful things which we didn`t get in the specials. Considering the dramatic scenes that there are, I think it was a wasted opportunity that Doug took the Series VIII route there.

    #97563
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >I think the whole point is that Lister?s ways of winding Rimmer up have become a bit pathetic and less funny. Post-BtE, now that he?s got more to live for, we can only assume he won?t be pulling stuff like the tomato stunt any more.

    Oh, so it was supposed to pathetic and unfunny? Brilliant. I completely misjudged this scene.

    #97564
    NoFro
    Participant

    Definitely feel that Lister wouldn’t have gone to such lengths to annoy Rimmer before but as someone else has said, they’ve been alone in space for so long that it felt more like Lister was doing it as a result of boredom.

    And whiny/emotional Kryten has been about for a long, long time. There was a lot of it in Out of Time and there are even short moments in BTR and DNA. Whilst I didn’t find it particularly funny in VII and VIII (it was a bit overdone and over the top) I find it funny in BTE and the random moments in series I-VI.

    To be honest the context of the line in BTE made it all the more funny.

    #97565
    hummingbird
    Participant

    I much prefer BtE Kryten than VII or VIII Kryten. In BtE the character was far closer to what he was in, say, V & VI.

    #97492
    Dave
    Participant

    Obviously we’d all love a return to the Rob & Doug era, but I wouldn’t be against new writers for Dwarf as long as Doug is still involved and Ben Rawson-Jones isn’t one of them.

    Red Dwarf created by Rob Grant & Doug Naylor
    Written by Doug Naylor & Andrew Ellard, Ben Paddon, David Black, Phil Reed, Seb Patrick and more.

    #97582
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    I much prefer BtE Kryten than VII or VIII Kryten. In BtE the character was far closer to what he was in, say, V & VI.

    I never had a problem with VII Kryten, but I agree – even though it was horribly written, the “I’m one big tension knot” moment is a nice(ish) callback to the nervous, jittery Kryten of series III/IV (and, in fact, the Kryten in the novels).

    #97641
    Phil1034
    Participant

    > Written by Doug Naylor & Andrew Ellard, Ben Paddon, David Black, Phil Reed, Seb Patrick and more.

    These names are familiar to me but I don’t know why.

    #97667
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Red Dwarf created by Rob Grant & Doug Naylor
    Written by Doug Naylor & Andrew Ellard, Ben Paddon, David Black, Phil Reed, Seb Patrick and more.

    Come on, let’s be realistic.

    No way is Ellards qualified enough to write Dwarf.

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