Mundane observation dome

[Warbodog]

Do you have any miscellaneous insights on the series that may be worth contemplating for a few seconds before moving on with our lives? Here are some of mine.

1. The four regulars have names that can work any way around, though this would have been more obvious if David Ross had stayed and wouldn’t work if Chris Barrie used his real name.

2. The series’ lax attitude to continuity extends to the setting. Outside of Holly’s distress calls, I don’t think three million years is mentioned all that much after series I and before VI (not sure about later years). Instead, we get the extremely fudged “dead for centuries” and “travelling for thousands of years” – not actual retcons, but suggesting a more conventional setting for casual viewers tuning in and the sort of stories they’re telling. It’s only millions when they need it to be.

3. 200 years of stasis between series V and VI means that the earlier series took place in their equivalent of the early 19th century by comparison (e.g. Blackadder the Third). Since they didn’t run into a long-lived Camille or one of her great-great-etc grandchildren, it didn’t come up.

4. Although Lister is routinely slagged off in the series, he’s spared the level of seemingly authoritative character assassination that Rimmer gets, because the audience is aligned with Lister’s viewpoint most of the time. For example, we see Kochanski Camille belittling Rimmer’s interests, but we don’t get the equivalent of Hologram Camille reacting to Lister’s pickup lines, we’re left to form our own opinions on those. This flimsy point has not been considered much beyond this single example.

5. Cat’s costumes are overwhelmingly referenced more than anyone else’s in the series, but the least discussed by fans.

6. Ace Rimmer and Duane Dibbley were so seemingly ubiquitous in canon and tie-in merchandise through the 90s (Smegazine strips, T-shirts) that they still feel overused today, even though it’s been over 20 years since they appeared. Maybe they’re allowed back after all.

7. Only series III & V and maybe XI & XII (not as familiar with those) don’t have any sense of an arc whatsoever (though IV’s minor Kryten disobedience arc was already fucked up by episode shuffling). Series III is just about the only series where no episode directly references any previous episode, but it still has the Backwards scrolling text and general references to Rimmer having died and stuff.

8. One of the series’ most famous and quoted scenes – everybody’s dead, Dave – is a straight-up 2001: A Space Odyssey homage and would have been received that way at the time, but doesn’t work like that for most people coming to the episode later on or new viewers who are young or don’t watch old films.

9. Sometimes dismissed as lightweight and gimmicky today, Backwards was designed as an innovative interactive experience to reward extracurricular effort. As well as inviting fans to work out the backwards events and filming logistics, Arthur Smith’s eugolonom is teasingly long and “you scoundrels” is clearly a cleaned-up translation gag even before you’ve heard it. Unfortunately, by the time technology caught up with the intent and the ability to reverse media files properly on home computers became commonplace, Backwards Forwards came out and everyone just cheated with the walkthrough.

Imagine the quality of the musings I left out!

Topic

[Renegade Rob]

The show has gone out of its way to explain other concepts more thoroughly, especially when they’re more vital to the plot, which is why “It’s the developing fluid, it must have mutated” feels like such a fuck you, because even keeping it just one sentence, Holly could’ve been like, oh yeah we passed through a tachyon storm last week and it must have supercharged the developing fluid chemicals, or the radiation leak must’ve reacted with the chemicals to create a whole new compound, and even those would’ve been better. I think there’s an audible laugh to Holly’s line too which is weird because it’s not really a joke even… so did the audience really laugh there or were they like… huh? Okay…? We’ll go with it? 

They literally took a whole scene in Meltdown to explain how the Matter Paddle worked when really Kryten could’ve just been like, I found this teleporter in the science decks and repaired it, let’s explore this S3 planet I found, and they could’ve gone straight to Waxworld from the sleeping quarters. They didn’t need to go to Starbug for any reason whatsoever, definitely not to overexplain a long-range teleporter (and light bee too to be fair although it’s still arbitrary to go down to Starbug for all that. Was the science room being cleaned or something?). 

They spend half of Confidence and Paranoia teeing up how and why Confidence and Paranoia show up, first with the exposure to the evolved virus, then Lister discussing confidence and paranoia, then solid hallucinations and only at the literal halfway point is when it’s like oh yeah now they’re here as actual people. 

Quarantine works gangbusters in the third act because they spend all of Act 2 explaining the different viruses. (Which is also good story structure. The stuff they pick up during act 2A, aka the Road of Trials, is utilized in the final confrontation aka the opposite matching end of the story circle.) 

In comparison, a single throwaway line about mutated developing fluid is just… lame.

[Formica]

It seems unlikely that there would be sanctioned pets on board

Seeing as how the word ‘unquarantined’ gets thrown around a lot with regard to Frankenstein’s problem, I’d have to imagine there’s procedure. Lister probably just didn’t want to pay the fee.

Have we ever discussed that Lister was probably at least somewhat in the wrong and the Captain had a point? Seems obvious now I say it out loud but the show hardly seems set up for you to want to realize that.

[Podey]

He is knowingly committing a violation in order to receive the punishment for his own benefit so I think it’d be hard to argue he’s in the right, though I prefer the ‘Infinity Welcomes….’ version of events where he actually did make sure the cat was healthy and disease-free before smuggling her on board and so wasn’t *actually* putting the crew at risk, which is somewhat redeeming.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I’ve always taken it as read that Hollister is right. Lister should have in quarantined animals onboard. Is anyone out there claiming otherwise?

Lister deliberately smuggling a cat onboard to get out in stasis is an Infinity thing. In The End I’m pretty sure he is just being stupid. Because by all accounts it interferes with his 5 year plan. But it is handy you can pretty much retcon in the Infinity explanation. 

[Podey]

Yeah that’s true, I’m always conflating the book vs TV motivations because the book makes more sense, especially as I don’t think Lister is stupid enough to send off the photo to be developed without knowing he’d be caught (though Rob and Doug probably thought he was when they wrote The End). 

[Warbodog]

If it was a scheme, it’d be easier to get “accidentally” caught by his diligent bunkmate rather than keeping it a secret. Unless he didn’t want to give Rimmer the satisfaction.

Unless that was the plan at first, and he did try being unsubtle around Rimmer, but Rimmer just didn’t catch on.

[Dave]

They should have had the cat race created by processing the photo of Frankenstein with mutated developing fluid.

[Podey]

It did occur to me recently that the cat race evolved *entirely* through inbreeding, so mutated developing fluid may be preferable… 

[Flap Jack]

I still do prefer the original explanation that Lister wasn’t trying to get caught. For one, I like the fact that Lister was earnestly trying to make his dream happen by working a career, and had to make a genuinely hard decision about which aspect of his dream to set back. And he did the principled thing of saving an innocent animal (which probably wouldn’t have been too difficult to replace) over 18 months wages (which probably would). Whereas in IWCD his whole motivation was just “get me the fuck out of here please” and the Fiji plan felt really tacked on, more just a thought than a plan. Barely worth including in the story.

For two, I like the idea of Lister growing into the kind of person who would pull off an elaborate scheme against his employer, not that he would start out that way. There’s more of a feeling that Lister is just a regular Joe who is thrust into being significant through circumstance, but in Infinity he’s very proactive, clever and independent from the beginning. It kind of plays into that original, abandoned idea of The End having a supporting cast of big celebrities that all get killed off. Lister and Rimmer aren’t conventional protagonists for a sci-fi drama (though obviously they are for a sitcom), but fate kind of makes them into ones anyway. I don’t think the book entirely abandons this idea, but it definitely doesn’t stick to it as much, by making Lister stick out as much as he does pre accident.

For three, the change aids the generally more depressing tone of the novel compared to the TV show, which I also don’t favour. In The End, Lister thinks he fucked up and he’s getting punished, and it turns out what he thought was a colossal mistake actually saved his life! In Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers, Lister thinks he’s absolutely nailed his brilliant plan and is getting ready for the good times, and he wakes up to find that everyone he’s ever met is dead. Obviously it’s still better that he got put into stasis than didn’t, but the come down is a lot harsher.

I understand the perspective that Lister getting his picture with Frankenstein developed in the ship’s lab is too stupid for him if he wasn’t trying to get caught (especially as this is the future and therefore digital cameras and smartphones exist /s), but I don’t know. I think it’s an understandable mistake to assume that the photos you get developed are kept confidential, or maybe Lister thought he had an understanding with the people working there, that they wouldn’t tell on him. It’s not that bad. It’s not as stupid as not knowing what an iguana is.

So I find it weird whenever people headcanon the novel stasis plan into the TV show, because to me that’s just making the story and character worse on purpose.

[Future Producer of Series IX – aaaaany day now]

Just a point of interest – the mutated developing fluid idea was probably a carry-over from the abandoned Mugs Murphy episode to explain how a cartoon character could escape a cartoon.

[Flap Jack]

You just made me realise something that probably should have been obvious – it’s the developing fluid which mutated, so really they shouldn’t be able to grab any photo in their collections and turn it into a time portal, it should only work for photos where they have the original negatives.

I guess if you can swallow the contrivance that they happened to have undeveloped film of all the photos they travelled into in Timeslides, then that provides an explanation for why they can’t just project a big photo of Earth that’s been through the process, and fly through it. It’s because they don’t have any undeveloped photos of Earth, just developed and digital ones.

[International Debris]

If it was a scheme, it’d be easier to get “accidentally” caught by his diligent bunkmate rather than keeping it a secret. Unless he didn’t want to give Rimmer the satisfaction.
Unless that was the plan at first, and he did try being unsubtle around Rimmer, but Rimmer just didn’t catch on.

Yeah, I’m pretty sure in the novels Lister only does the photo thing because he’s getting desperate.

I’m not sure which I prefer. I agree that the TV version is out of character for who Lister would become, but it’s also funnier and kinder. 

Full agreement with Renegade Rob, that post sums it up fairly well – even though the science in RD is rarely better than shaky to say the least, the writing usually treats it as if it’s grounded in reality and helps the audience along with it. The developing fluid is nonsense and they don’t attempt to cover it up. 

That said, I do wonder if we more readily accept certain concepts because they’re sci-fi staples. Stasis, teleporters, etc. are all things used in countless other stories that it’s easy to accept them because deep down they feel real. Whereas because mutated developing fluid is a completely original concept, we question it more. 

[Podey]

So I find it weird whenever people headcanon the novel stasis plan into the TV show, because to me that’s just making the story and character worse on purpose.

In my defence I am not headcanoning anything, I genuinely just forget that it isn’t in the show because Infinity Welcomes.. is as much “old Red Dwarf” as old telly Red Dwarf is to me, having read them both when I was younger. I would guess I’ve probably read the book more times than I’ve seen ‘The End’, too, so it’s just imprinted on my mind. 

It being better or worse is highly subjective but I’ve always considered the first book to be the best version of Red Dwarf that exists, Stasis reasoning included. 

[Flap Jack]

Fair. I didn’t read the novels until the 2010s, so there’s a clearer separation for me. I guess it’s still headcanon to give TV Lister Book Lister’s motives, it’s just… accidental headcanon.

[Unrumble]

I think a bigger question regarding Timeslides, is why didn’t Rimmer immediately vomit after taking a bite out of a banana and crisp sandwich…

[Nick R]

 Science Fiction is a wonderful thing because it does set its own arbitrary boundaries and makes its fans insist on the medium sticking to them.
For example, many didn’t like the final Star Wars because somehow Palpatine returned. Of course, the flimsy throwaway nature of saying he is back is one of the larger reasons but it comes down to believability. Why is it that we believe that this mystical Force can make people live hundreds of years, choke someone to death without touching them, create lightning from nothing, manipulate minds and surroundings and all these incredible things…but one guy can’t use it to cheat death?
Because for one reason or another, we just don’t believe it. And that’s the golden rule. Your audience has the right to just say “nope, don’t believe it. Doesn’t fit”. And that’s all there is to it. They can’t suspend their disbelief in that slight bit of uncanny possibility.
For example, if the Harry Potter series had ended with “oh by the way Voldemort suddenly dies because Harry discovers a big fuckoff Laser Sword in the Hogwarts dungeon and turns Voldy into a kebab”, we wouldn’t be best pleased. But this is a world where magic exists?? People can use brooms to fly but you draw the line at laser swords? Why???
That’s an extreme example of course, but I suppose my point is that sci-fi concepts will make you believe that the impossible is possible, but it has limits and you can’t get away with anything.
Why do we not believe in mutating developing fluid but we believe in a stasis machine that freezes a person in time for 3 million years? Both are absolutely mental concepts. One fits what we think the show is, and the other doesn’t.
But could another show get away with “mutated developing fluid”? Of course, without question.

For me, generally the earlier in the story something gets introduced, the easier it is to suspend disbelief about it. If you leave it too late to introduce a new sci-fi concept, it comes across as an unsatisfying way for the writer to write their way out of a corner.

Superman arrived here in a spaceship, can fly, is invulnerable, impossibly strong, can shoot lasers out of his eyes, and can blow out freezing breath? That’s fine – all part of the basic stuff you’ve got to accept to enjoy a Superman story!

But Superman can fly so fast in the opposite direction to the Earth’s rotation that he can go back in time? And then if he flies the other way, he starts time moving forwards again? That’s silly, time travel does not work that way!

With Red Dwarf, I can accept the mutated developing fluid or the Stasis Leak because that’s just setting up the gimmick of the week; we get it out of the way early to have fun with where that premise goes from there.

But when it comes to things like the Mirror universe in Only the Good, or (to a lesser extent) the ERRA stuff in Entangled, or communicating with the universe in Krysis: those are harder for me to accept because they are introduced late in the episodes and represent such abrupt shifts from the episodes’ initial sci-fi concepts. If we’d got a whole episode devoted to travelling to a mirror universe, or a whole episode about a research station devoted to incorrectness, I’d have accepted them much more easily.

[desbug]

So I find it weird whenever people headcanon the novel stasis plan into the TV show, because to me that’s just making the story and character worse on purpose.

In my defence I am not headcanoning anything, I genuinely just forget that it isn’t in the show because Infinity Welcomes.. is as much “old Red Dwarf” as old telly Red Dwarf is to me, having read them both when I was younger. I would guess I’ve probably read the book more times than I’ve seen ‘The End’, too, so it’s just imprinted on my mind. 

It being better or worse is highly subjective but I’ve always considered the first book to be the best version of Red Dwarf that exists, Stasis reasoning included. 

I agree, I read the book so many times as a teenager it feels like the main event, and it never even really occurred to me that The End’s Lister was any different, just thought that they didn’t have time to shove all that in the episode. 

[Starbugger]

I think a bigger question regarding Timeslides, is why didn’t Rimmer immediately vomit after taking a bite out of a banana and crisp sandwich…

That and, why is there a photo of Rimmer asleep in bed at boarding school?

[Renegade Rob]

Captain Hollister, before the Dennis the Doughnut Boy version from Series VIII-onwards, seemed like an actual reasonable competent captain in the early series. Not perfect, but patient. He explains the problem with animals on the ship, and hell, he even tries to apologize to Rimmer about giving him PD. And he wears chicken costumes. What a legend. 

Heck, even during his Series VIII character assassination, Mac McDonald is still excellent and makes the character still eminently watchable, and he still outsmarts the Dwarfers and is able to (barely) come out of that series with some dignity intact, even after being assaulted by a dinosaur. That’s not nothing. 

[International Debris]

But when it comes to things like the Mirror universe in Only the Good, or (to a lesser extent) the ERRA stuff in Entangled

My biggest issue with these is that nothing interesting or intelligent is done with them. They’re both just “lol opposites”.

[Renegade Rob]

The ERRA stuff in execution was silly, but the scene where they approach the station in Blue Midget and Kryten explains ERRA’s philosophy, followed by “Did it work?” “No.” is pretty fantastic. 

[Jonathan Capps]

The ERRA stuff in execution was silly, but the scene where they approach the station in Blue Midget and Kryten explains ERRA’s philosophy, followed by “Did it work?” “No.” is pretty fantastic. 

The first three quarters of that episode is excellent. Its reputation is totally ruined by the last 5 minutes.

[International Debris]

Yeah, the “no” gag is one of my favourite X moments. That whole bit feels like it was lifted out of a bubble episode.

[Rudolph]

I think my problem with ERRA and Professor E, and to a lesser extent M-Corp taking control of everything and being able to tax thinking, is that they make Red Dwarf feel like it takes place in a ‘zany’ universe. They’re far more Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy style ideas.

[Warbodog]

Heck, even during his Series VIII character assassination, Mac McDonald is still excellent and makes the character still eminently watchable, and he still outsmarts the Dwarfers and is able to (barely) come out of that series with some dignity intact, even after being assaulted by a dinosaur. That’s not nothing. 

His comparatively straight performance is easily the best thing about Back in the Red, and I like him being Frank with Rimmer about his prospects in Only the Good.

[Rudolph]

Just had a thought about VIII.
Red Dwarf is recreated in orbit of the ocean planet from Back to Reality, so presumably the Dwarfers could’ve just directed the nanobot crew to the wreckage of the SSS Esperanto as evidence of their story.

[Hamish]

so either A, the skutters actually must have had to navigate all those stairs and everything, or B, they had to use (either always part of their design like Daleks/R2-D2 or special external equipment that they attach onto themselves) little servos and space jetpacks to maneuver to the panel to hide the discs, which sounds adorable and is something I’d like to have seen. 

Or there could just be service tunnels for the smaller maintenance droids.

[Future Producer of Series IX – aaaaany day now]

Or, at a push, there could just be service tunnels for the smaller maintenance droids.

[Renegade Rob]

I like that. It’s like Lego Star Wars, where there’s little hatches you need short characters to crawl into like Ewoks or Little Anakin, and then they just inexplicably come out on some far off balcony where you can grab a bonus brick or whatever. 

[Moonlight]

What is Kryten doing with a wallet? Why would he ever need one?

[Dave]

Following novel rules, it probably materialised in his pocket upon arrival in Backwards world because he was destined to un-buy it later.

[Moonlight]

Lister wasn’t soaking wet when he arrived on Backwards World. Unwatchable. 7/10.

[Dave]

Well, it’s taken us nearly 35 years but we’ve finally discovered a logic gap in Backwards.

[Moonlight]

[Flap Jack]

Just dropped a couple of guys off on the road. Now let me get out of my van and have a discussion with them about the pub I just picked them up from, then suddenly realise that I haven’t been able to understand them the whole time and ask them if they’re Bulgarians.

[Unrumble]

Just dropped a couple of guys off on the road. Now let me get out of my van and have a discussion with them about the pub I just picked them up from, then suddenly realise that I haven’t been able to understand them the whole time and ask them if they’re Bulgarians.

[International Debris]

[Rudolph]

What is Kryten doing with a wallet? Why would he ever need one?

He’s also wearing a watch, which doesn’t make sense when you think about it.

[Nick R]

He’s also wearing a watch, which doesn’t make sense when you think about it.

Kryten’s timekeeping operates on Futurama logic:

[GlenTokyo]

You could explain the watch away as it being a Holly/ ships computer watch, though you’d imagine they’re both on the same network (Backwards with Holly appearing on his monitor would imply that too), so again, he shouldn’t really need it to communicate.

Maybe he’s just a watch collector. He’s got hobbies.

[Moonlight]

Kryten’s timekeeping operates on Futurama logic:

I fucking love this joke.

[Moonlight]

Why is the chicken soup in The End dispensed in a plastic drinking cup? Am I a stupid American for eating soup out of a bowl?

[Podey]

Soup from vending machines tend to come in little plastic cups, but if it’s home made or if you’re eating it with slices/rolls of bread then you’d likely use a bowl. 

So, I think it depends on if the soup is “instant” or not? For example, a popular brand of “just add water” soup here is ‘Cup-a-Soup’ and the idea is, obviously, to drink it from a cup.

[Hamish]

[Dave]

[Podey]

[Moonlight]

It looks like a plastic cup you’d buy and reuse, not a disposable. That’s what’s weird.

[Podey]

S’the future, innit? 

[Unrumble]

[Unrumble]

[Author]

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