Mundane observation dome

[Warbodog]

Do you have any miscellaneous insights on the series that may be worth contemplating for a few seconds before moving on with our lives? Here are some of mine.

1. The four regulars have names that can work any way around, though this would have been more obvious if David Ross had stayed and wouldn’t work if Chris Barrie used his real name.

2. The series’ lax attitude to continuity extends to the setting. Outside of Holly’s distress calls, I don’t think three million years is mentioned all that much after series I and before VI (not sure about later years). Instead, we get the extremely fudged “dead for centuries” and “travelling for thousands of years” – not actual retcons, but suggesting a more conventional setting for casual viewers tuning in and the sort of stories they’re telling. It’s only millions when they need it to be.

3. 200 years of stasis between series V and VI means that the earlier series took place in their equivalent of the early 19th century by comparison (e.g. Blackadder the Third). Since they didn’t run into a long-lived Camille or one of her great-great-etc grandchildren, it didn’t come up.

4. Although Lister is routinely slagged off in the series, he’s spared the level of seemingly authoritative character assassination that Rimmer gets, because the audience is aligned with Lister’s viewpoint most of the time. For example, we see Kochanski Camille belittling Rimmer’s interests, but we don’t get the equivalent of Hologram Camille reacting to Lister’s pickup lines, we’re left to form our own opinions on those. This flimsy point has not been considered much beyond this single example.

5. Cat’s costumes are overwhelmingly referenced more than anyone else’s in the series, but the least discussed by fans.

6. Ace Rimmer and Duane Dibbley were so seemingly ubiquitous in canon and tie-in merchandise through the 90s (Smegazine strips, T-shirts) that they still feel overused today, even though it’s been over 20 years since they appeared. Maybe they’re allowed back after all.

7. Only series III & V and maybe XI & XII (not as familiar with those) don’t have any sense of an arc whatsoever (though IV’s minor Kryten disobedience arc was already fucked up by episode shuffling). Series III is just about the only series where no episode directly references any previous episode, but it still has the Backwards scrolling text and general references to Rimmer having died and stuff.

8. One of the series’ most famous and quoted scenes – everybody’s dead, Dave – is a straight-up 2001: A Space Odyssey homage and would have been received that way at the time, but doesn’t work like that for most people coming to the episode later on or new viewers who are young or don’t watch old films.

9. Sometimes dismissed as lightweight and gimmicky today, Backwards was designed as an innovative interactive experience to reward extracurricular effort. As well as inviting fans to work out the backwards events and filming logistics, Arthur Smith’s eugolonom is teasingly long and “you scoundrels” is clearly a cleaned-up translation gag even before you’ve heard it. Unfortunately, by the time technology caught up with the intent and the ability to reverse media files properly on home computers became commonplace, Backwards Forwards came out and everyone just cheated with the walkthrough.

Imagine the quality of the musings I left out!

Topic

[Flap Jack]

I think this was going to be a pillar of their original plan for Series
2: Lister’s repeated frustration with Kochanski’s incorporealness and
trying to have the best relationship he can with a for all intents and
purposes ghost. Falling through her for laughs when Lister tries to hug
or kiss her, etc.  Maybe Lister “grows” and “matures” by having to focus
on the mental/emotional aspect of relationships without the physical.

[cwickham]

> Was ditching Bodysnatcher and changing their minds about Kochanski coming back a decision made in tandem, or were they already having second thoughts about the latter before they dropped the former? Or was it just easier to come up with a new ending episode rather than a mid-series episode given the running threads across the first series, or had they decided C&P wasn’t a great way to end the series but not weak enough to drop altogether?

So, I rewatched “The Beginning” (the Bodysnatcher documentary) to see if there was an answer for this… and Rob says that basically Bodysnatcher got dropped because they decided it should have been Rimmer who came back instead of Kochanski, and then the new episode was the premise of Bodysnatcher but with two Rimmers instead of two Listers so it had to go.

But it seems an underdiscussed part of that documentary that Doug then goes on to say that if they’d had the time, they’d have also dropped Waiting for God and at least one other episode and replaced them with new ones?

[Rudolph]

Am surprised that Waiting for God would be on his bin list. It’s perfect Dwarf in my book – Rimmer obsessing over some pointless little project, an early Lister being a ‘man of moral courage’ storyline. Plus it gives us pretty much all the cat people knowledge we’ll have for the next thirty years.

[tombow]

here’s something I only just realised. Apologies if you all noticed this ages ago. Lister is the only character who’s brother has not been a major guest character, but the only one who’s real life brother has appeared (in Timeslides).

[Renegade Rob]

I mean, given the chrono-incestuous nature of Lister’s birth, really at least one half of his family tree is all just him, so who’s to say? Rimmer wasn’t entirely off the mark about Lister being forbidden passionfruit. 

And if you think that’s a stretch, the thought occurs: how does Lister’s paradoxical parentage comport with Lister being unwritten and rewritten by the Inquisitor? Is it a completely separate but parallel ouroboros cycle? Kryten mentioned the adjacent sperm concept and Lister ran with it, but was that just metaphorical, because if not, then every “rewritten” version of anyone the Inquisitior has rewritten is the genetic sibling of their original counterpart.

[Podey]

Am surprised that Waiting for God would be on his bin list. It’s perfect Dwarf in my book – Rimmer obsessing over some pointless little project, an early Lister being a ‘man of moral courage’ storyline. Plus it gives us pretty much all the cat people knowledge we’ll have for the next thirty years.

All personal taste of course, but Waiting For God is on my skip list… I appreciate it more for now having The Promised Land, though.

[Moonlight]

THIS IS SCIENCE, LADDIE!

[Podey]

rimcel

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

That is basically the origins of incels. Was just a bunch of people at a university somewhere that struggled to get dates decided to hang out. Then it completely spun out of control and the “community” now is in no way representative of the original group, to the point those guys fucking hate what the accidentally created.

[Podey]

The actual term was created by a woman called Alana in the late 90s via a website for lonely people called ‘Alana’s Involuntary Celibacy Project’, though – like you say – the current iteration bares very little resemblance to those origins: 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/25/woman-who-invented-incel-movement-interview-toronto-attack

[tombow]

found this online

Henry Flynt discussed male involuntary celibacy, in relation to being perceived as creep, in his 1975 book Blueprint for a Higher Civilization.

“When Helen Lefkowitz said I was “such a creep” at Interlochen in 1956, her remark epitomized the feeling that females have always had about me. My attempts to understand why females rejected me and to decide what to do about it resulted in years of confusion. In 1961-1962, I tried to develop a theory of the creep problem. This theory took involuntary celibacy as the defining characteristic of the creep. Every society has its image of the ideal young adult, even though the symbols of growing up change from generation to generation. The creep is an involuntary celibate because he fails to develop the surface traits of adulthood–poise and sophistication; and because he is shy, unassertive, and lacks self-confidence in the presence of others . The creep is awkward and has an unstylish appearance. He seems sexless and childish. He is regarded by the ideal adults with condescending scorn, amusement, or pity.”

(Flynt 1975)

The feminist creator of the first known incel discussion forum, Alana, did not coin the abbreviated version of the phrase “incel” as has been commonly promulgated in the media. She merely introduced a prior attempt at shortening the phrase, as “invcel,” in 1997. It was pronounced “invacel.” As this sounds the term “imbecile”, she later adopted “incel” at the suggestion of someone in the mailing list she created; this new contraction was also easier to pronounce.

[Podey]

[Podey]

[Future Producer of Series IX – aaaaany day now]

Podey, why’s one of your posts blank?

[Podey]

Because there’s no “delete” option, basically. It was a double post due to the forum not playing ball when I wanted to change one of the images.  

[Flap Jack]

Podey posted the real reason that the Red Dwarf Twitter account was retired, but GNP hackers got to it.

[Ian Symes]

My attempts to understand why females rejected me and to decide what to do about it resulted in years of confusion.

Probably because you refer to them as “females”.

[Future Producer of Series IX – aaaaany day now]

[Moonlight]

[Dave]

[Podey]

[RunawayTrain]

The creep is an involuntary celibate because he fails to develop the surface traits of adulthood–poise and sophistication; and because he is shy, unassertive, and lacks self-confidence in the presence of others . The creep is awkward and has an unstylish appearance. 

From the whole lament it seems they really, truly, have had no concept of women not being just sexual objects since the inception of inceldom and blame it all on their physicality and looks.  It’s the ultimate victim complex, that they’re rejected for things they can’t change (looks, physicality) or could only change with great difficulty (self-esteem), not the thing that actually needs changing (their view of and attitude towards women).

(Also, it’s astonishing that he thinks only incels are creeps.)

[Podey]

In ‘Future Echoes’, Lister mourns that he has never read a book.

In ‘Me2’, whilst sorting through his and Rimmer’s belongings, he says that the ‘Pop-Up Kama Sutra’ book is his.

I like to think that Lister’s perceived near-death experience encouraged him to start reading and he started with the ‘Pop-Up Kama Sutra’.

[Dave]

I’m not sure the Pop-Up Kama Sutra is the kind of book you read.

[Dave]

Why would Rimmer assume that a clearly human-looking man is evidence of aliens?

[Flap Jack]

Because humans have bodies.

Or because he’s racist.

[Dave]

It just seems weird, he’s used to Holly and he’s seen other computers like Holly with different faces before.

I get it was a regular part of his early character characterisation but I’m glad they left the obsession with aliens in the past. When did it last surface, was it DNA with the Glenn Miller gag?

[Flap Jack]

My more serious answer is just that it wouldn’t have been normal for another ship’s computer face to suddenly appear on the big screen like that, without warning. So Rimmer in that moment jumps to the conclusion that alien tech has hacked into the ship, and the aliens have adopted a human face to make first contact.

And I guess DNA was the last major “Rimmer thinking something is aliens” gag, though it’s obviously not really a continuation of the bit, because Rimmer wanted the aliens to go away in that case. Although he did reference believing in aliens in Samsara.

[Rudolph]

It’s just occurred to me that Spare Head 3 was destroyed in Beyond a Joke.

[Renegade Rob]

Rimmer’s obsession with aliens probably originated before the accident (“that time we used a bog roll in one day, you thought that was aliens too”, unless hologram Rimmer also used a bog roll for some reason), but aliens seemed tied into Rimmer’s hope of being given a body, so once he receives hard light in Legion (“I’ve got a body?!”), it makes sense that his obsession with aliens waned after that. 

[cwickham]

Thought after watching Future Echoes tonight: When was Holly’s SOS call recorded? Was there a version of it before the decision was made to put Holly in vision, or was it only added after that?

[Dave]

I guess it could have previously been conceived as a voice over playing over the same clips, just without Holly in vision.

[tombow]

I’ve just realised Rimmer and Krissie being holograms would be a pretty dramatic situation. Because we know they dislike each other, but they’d also be eachother’s only chance of physical contact, even if they just wanted a hug. And Lister would know that Rimmer potentially could hold her in his arms but Lister can’t. Rimmer would be thinking of trying to impress her to get a date.

[Dave]

they’d also be each other’s only chance of physical contact

Although in Series 1 we didn’t know that – it isn’t until Parallel Universe that we get the “hey, holograms can touch each other” moment.

Presumably though that’s because the only other opportunity for this would have been Me², and for obvious reasons they didn’t have any scenes with Rimmer touching… himself.

[tombow]

oh yeah…he could have given himself a bj or something. I never thought of that. 

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

In Parallel Universe Deb says “hey holograms can touch each other” and Lister nods enthusiastically in a knowing way. 

Suggests that he maybe did see the two Rimmer’s touching (innocently you filthy lot) and would also suggest Deb and Arlene didn’t have their own version of Me2. 

[Podey]

I actually thought whilst rewatching Me2 the other day that Rimmer would probably have ended up hooking up with his duplicate over time if they hadn’t have clashed. I think we see this born out in Rimmerworld where there are “male” Rimmers playing the role of females, since in both scenarios a duplicate Rimmer/duplicate Rimmers are the only available option. 

[Future Producer of Series IX – aaaaany day now]

[Warbodog]

in Rimmerworld where there are “male” Rimmers playing the role of females

I thought they were women that all amusingly had the exact face of Chris Barrie and the society was reproducing “normally” after an original batch of Adam and Eve Rimmer clones. Maybe the ones who look the most like Chris Barrie being particularly prized/bred.

[Podey]

I definitely took it that they’re all male duplicates of Rimmer, as that’s what the plot seems to imply (that his botched attempts at creating a female companion resulted in hundreds of identical clones of himself). That’s what Kryten meant when he said the alternative to Rimmer being fortunate enough to land on a vastly populated planet was too hideous to contemplate, ie that it was hundreds and hundreds of his clones… It wouldn’t be quite as hideous a prospect if it was just his descendants. 

[Warbodog]

Kryten talks about the dangers of inbreeding specifically, but I don’t know now. It’s all under the time cut.

[Podey]

Rimmer does say “can you imagine a society composed entirely of me?” in the prison cell, though, implying it’s a society of Rimmer clones. He then goes on to call them all Judases, which typically only men get called. 

I’ll agree it’s not explicitly stated but it is, at least, heavily implied. 

[Future Producer of Series IX – aaaaany day now]

So how come the Great One’s two concubines had.. um… accoutrements?

[tombow]

I watched After Work Josh “reacting” to that ep this morning, and now I’m wondering
Why do they discuss his next of kin when the human race is extinct?
How would he clone himself again?

I thought they were descendants but any who don’t look enough like Rimmer are got rid of, or maybe they’re sterile and just keep cloning 

[Flap Jack]

The female Rimmers are trans.

[Rudolph]

I watched After Work Josh “reacting” to that ep this morning, and now I’m wondering
Why do they discuss his next of kin when the human race is extinct?
How would he clone himself again?

I thought they were descendants but any who don’t look enough like Rimmer are got rid of, or maybe they’re sterile and just keep cloning.

Glad someone else watches his videos. His laugh is totally infectious, and I’m loving how he’s had such a positive reaction to British sitcoms, especially older stuff like Porridge. The first time I’ve watched a reaction video and it’s made me feel like I’m watching something for the first time again.

[Stabbim]

Rimmer does say “can you imagine a society composed entirely of me?” in the prison cell, though, implying it’s a society of Rimmer clones. He then goes on to call them all Judases, which typically only men get called. 

I’ll agree it’s not explicitly stated but it is, at least, heavily implied. 

well, Judas is his middle name, maybe it’s a popular one there ;)

[Podey]

 How would he clone himself again? 

The only information we’re given is that he can create a fully-grown clone “from his DNA”, and that he tried again once he failed so I presumed he got into a loop of fail-and-repeat.

Maybe they’re sterile and just keep cloning 

Cloning or boning? We may never know…

[Stabbim]

I’ve just realised Rimmer and Krissie being holograms would be a pretty dramatic situation. Because we know they dislike each other, but they’d also be eachother’s only chance of physical contact, even if they just wanted a hug. And Lister would know that Rimmer potentially could hold her in his arms but Lister can’t. Rimmer would be thinking of trying to impress her to get a date.

Well, Kochanski was so far above both of them in rank that I doubt she really interacted with Rimmer or Lister often enough to have a strong opinion either way.  But just as Lister looks back on that small sample and hopes it might have been indicative of greater fondness, Rimmer is likewise convinced the few times he heard her pronounce his name “to rhyme with scum” is proof of greater resentment.  It was almost certainly actually just formal, professional indifference. She might have been vaguely aware of Rimmer’s reputation as a tryhard smeghead from overhearing other officers’ chatter about him, and he surely didn’t win any points with her when he hurled her purse across the dance floor in the Balance Of Power flashback scene, but Rimmer’s not nearly as important as he thinks he is, so neither Kochanski or the other officers likely think about him nearly as much as he assumes they do.

But, Rimmer does respect his superior officers [to their face, anyway], does enjoy needling Lister, and is very aware that Lister is over the moon for Kochanski. So, in the hypothetical Plan A for S2 where both their holograms are active, it does seem like it would fit so well with the early “Odd Couple In Space” tone of the show to have a scenario where Rimmer is trying his best to ingratiate himself to Kochanski not out of any fondness for her, but to climb what’s left of the command ladder, and to throw that more significant connection (and his disinterest in having it) in Lister’s face

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I’ve just realised Rimmer and Krissie being holograms would be a pretty dramatic situation. Because we know they dislike each other, but they’d also be eachother’s only chance of physical contact, even if they just wanted a hug. And Lister would know that Rimmer potentially could hold her in his arms but Lister can’t. Rimmer would be thinking of trying to impress her to get a date.

Well, Kochanski was so far above both of them in rank that I doubt she really interacted with Rimmer or Lister often enough to have a strong opinion either way.  But just as Lister looks back on that small sample and hopes it might have been indicative of greater fondness, Rimmer is likewise convinced the few times he heard her pronounce his name “to rhyme with scum” is proof of greater resentment.  It was almost certainly actually just formal, professional indifference. She might have been vaguely aware of Rimmer’s reputation as a tryhard smeghead from overhearing other officers’ chatter about him, and he surely didn’t win any points with her when he hurled her purse across the dance floor in the Balance Of Power flashback scene, but Rimmer’s not nearly as important as he thinks he is, so neither Kochanski or the other officers likely think about him nearly as much as he assumes they do.
But, Rimmer does respect his superior officers [to their face, anyway], does enjoy needling Lister, and is very aware that Lister is over the moon for Kochanski. So, in the hypothetical Plan A for S2 where both their holograms are active, it does seem like it would fit so well with the early “Odd Couple In Space” tone of the show to have a scenario where Rimmer is trying his best to ingratiate himself to Kochanski not out of any fondness for her, but to climb what’s left of the command ladder, and to throw that more significant connection (and his disinterest in having it) in Lister’s face

In a world where there’s only 169 crew on Red Dwarf Kochanski absolutely knows who Rimmer is. If it’s 1169 it’s less likely, but his reputation may precede him. Especially his gazpacho soup incident. I bet that’s been talked around the officers mess. 

[Author]

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