Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum Norman won’t be coming back…

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  • #10689
    Turk Thrust
    Participant

    As seen on another forum…

    Norman obviously gets a mention of money in again as he does everytime he is interviewed or questioned…

    #112513
    ori-STUDFARM
    Participant

    Aw no! That’s too bad, I really liked him too!

    #112514
    ori-STUDFARM
    Participant

    Aw no! That’s too bad, I really liked him too!

    #112515
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >Aw no! That’s too bad, I really liked him too!

    THEN MAYBE YOU SHOULDN’T BE LIVING HEEEEEEEERRRRRE

    #112516
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Well that’s easily fixed…

    …with Hattie.

    #112517
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    Well, you know what they say Norm, finish on a song…

    #112518
    Danny Stephenson
    Keymaster

    For those not at the convention, my question to Doug here regarding this:

    #112521
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Nice to see!

    And that Feckingbillgates! Grr. (One of the commenters under that youtube video.)

    #112524
    Danny Stephenson
    Keymaster

    He appears to be trolling the Q&A videos

    feckingbillgates says on that video

    The reason Norman Lovett doesn’t want to be in Red Dwarf any more is that he is honest about what he thinks is good? character comedy, and is not just chasing money. The others in the cast don’t have the guts to admit how shit series? 8 was. In the end Norman has come out of this looking far better.

    and then on the other Q&A:

    Norman Lovett tells the truth. None of the other members? of the Red Dwarf cast have the guts to say how shit series 8 was, because they want to hold onto their jobs. That’s the way the world goes, I suppose, but it just means I? have more respect for Norman Novett. :-)

    Good old Novett eh?

    #112525
    mick
    Participant

    Personally I hope the talentless, miserable, money grubbing old shitbag never works in comedy again.

    But that’s just me :-D

    #112526
    Turk Thrust
    Participant

    Personally I will always be grateful to him for fighting to get the character seen on screen in the very beginning. For that reason, he did play a big part in the success of the show for the first 5 series (albeit Hattie may as well not have been in Series V).

    #112528
    Jo
    Participant

    (albeit Hattie may as well not have been in Series V)

    Eh?

    #112529
    Turk Thrust
    Participant

    Due to the fact that Rob and Doug couldn’t find anything for her to do…

    #112530

    yup. Kryten ended up shouldering most of the expository load for that series, which sort of sidelined Holly for the most part.

    #112532
    Jo
    Participant

    Oh I see what you mean… in which case. NO. She may as well not have been in it? PFFT. Hattie is made of awesome and anyone who says otherwise is due a punch in the face from me.

    #112534
    ChrisM
    Participant

    She did get to do her thing more in White Hole. And the delivery in a lot of her scenes was great.

    Her role was small, but she was a good Holly. It would be great to see her again.

    And I’m not just saying that because I’m afraid of SingingPotato’s fists.

    Although I am. ;)

    #112538

    Bring on Bill Bailey!!!

    #112540
    Dave
    Participant

    Hattie’s moon impression would have been very different.

    #112541
    Danny Stephenson
    Keymaster

    Tony Hawks would also make a good Holly IMHO, but it’s time for Hattie to make a come back.

    The potential plotline that they found 3,000,000 years worth of software upgrades for Holly sounds like a perfect way to bring her back, and maybe with a different look.

    Seriously looking forward to these new episodes though.

    While it may be true that was less and less for Holly to do, her role wasn’t any less diminished. She certainly made the best of what screen time she had. For example, watch her react to the Rimmer/Lister/Landstrom exchange in Quarantine. Awesome stuff.

    #112543
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    I don’t see the point of the character if he/she is just there. Reaction shots are lovely, but they’re obviously not there in the scripting/preproduction stages so why budget an extra actor on the strength of that?.

    Because I was bored at work, here’s Hattie’s lines from my (much beloved) Series V:

    Holoship
    “Hang on chaps, we’ve got a blip. Quadrant 4, sector 492.”
    “Plotting random evasion course.”
    “I’m trying to get them to handshake, but they’re not responding on any frequency.”
    “Hang on, I’m getting another energy emission.”
    “Next candidate: Deck sergeant Sam Murray”

    The Inquisitor
    “Strange, we’ve changed course.”
    “And again! Mark one eight zero — a complete turn! We’re heading back to Red Dwarf.”
    “We’re locked out!”
    “Nothing on the local scan.”
    “So who is he?”
    “No, being a totally worthless, unwashed space bum, that’s what makes you prunable.”
    “You are not registered as personnel of this vessel. Please state your name and clearance code.”
    “Please state your name and clearance code.”
    “I have no record of your palm-print.”
    “Intruder Alert! Intruder Alert!
    “I have no record of your CPU ident.”

    Terroform
    “We’ve got a visitor”
    “A pod arrived about 20 minutes ago. Something was in it, but it’s broken free.”
    “Well, I don’t want to spread any panic or alarm.”
    “Well, you’ve always had this thing against tarantulas, haven’t you?”
    “I mean that you’ve never been overly fond of them as a species, have you?”
    “And the prospect of waking up and finding one crawling over your clammy, naked, helpless body has always filled you with a kind of cold dread?”
    “I’m saying it might not be your night. Look at this. This is the best shot the security cameras could get.”
    “We lost it.”
    “Kryten’s off moon-hopping with Rimmer. Radio link’s down. I’ll keep trying.”
    “Got ‘im. Click and a half due south.”
    “According to the signal we’re almost on top of him. Shouldn’t be more than 2 or 3 hundred meters.”
    “Trouble. We’ve hit quicksand. We’re being sucked down.”
    “Hang on. I’m getting a powerful energy emission.”
    “If you want my opinion the only way anyone’s to get out of here alive is by working out some way of killing that thing.”
    “Increasing retros to max. Now stable.”
    “We’re getting some lift.”
    “Going down.”
    “Going up.”
    “Quick, get into the cockpit. There’s something very strange happening out there.”
    “We’re getting some lift”
    “We’re almost clear.”

    Quarantine
    “Escape pod checked and standing by.”
    “I’ve done three complete checks — it’s ready to launch.”
    “When you’re quite finished, chaps, we’ve got a bit of a problem with the cargo bay doors.”
    “They won’t open. Rimmer’s put in an override.”

    Demons and Angels
    “Rude alert! Rude alert! An electrical fire has knocked out my voice recognition unicycle! Many Wurlitzers are missing from my database! Abandon shop! This is not a daffodil. Repeat: This is not a daffodil!”
    “The phrase “Cargo bay doors” does not appear to be in my lexicon.”
    “The phrase “Manual override”…”
    “Brothers, I am compelled to intrude.”
    “I am receiving a weak but plaintive distress call from a ship which appears to be identical to our own.”
    “It is ready”
    “We want your vessel”
    “Of course not! He hasn’t turned you on yet.”
    “Engaging autopilot. Course zero zero mark zero. Taking her home.”

    Back to Reality
    “I think our friend the “Suicide Squid” is about to make an appearance.”
    “Down.”
    “15 knots … 16 … 18 …”
    “Collision.”
    “25 knots … 35 … 50 ..”
    “Change bearing, one zero five. There’s some natural caverns about 3 clicks away. It might give us some cover.”
    “Hello! For the 3000th time, you’re hallucinating! Can anyone hear me?!”
    “Kryten, I’m broadcasting on a higher frequency. Can you hear me now?”
    “You’re hallucinating! Put the gun down!”
    “Walk forward three paces!”
    “You’re hallucinating!”
    “I though you weren’t going to make it! Welcome Back to Reality!”
    “You had a group hallucination! Brought on by the ink from the despair squid. You were about to commit suicide, just like the crew of the Esperanto, until the mood-stabilizer saved you.”
    “I took care of that! Limpet mines — there’s enough fried Calamari out there to feed the whole of Italy.”
    “Flight coordinates programmed. Switching to pilot cooperation until we hit the surface”

    She was averaging about 10 lines per episode, and so much of that is just exposition. Not the sort of stuff that gets put on T-shirts, and this was arguably the most celebrated series. So much of what’s above reminds me of Sigourney Weaver’s character in Galaxy Quest.

    Having Hattie back to just perform this kind of job is simply fan service. Lovely lady, but a waste of her talents.

    It was the same kind of deal with Series VIII, except then Holly’s rare lines were actually supposed to be amusing rather than just acting as narrator. After his initial fairly large role in BitR part 1, he barely featured. I think he gets about two lines in BitR part II and isn’t onscreen for either of them.

    #112544
    Turk Thrust
    Participant

    And many of those lines could have been spoken by Kryten…

    I guess the budget will be low again so something will have to give. If Holly were to be a major part of the plot then it would be sensible to bring the character back but otherwise, the money could probably be better spent elsewhere…

    #112547
    Ridley
    Participant

    There could be more mileage to get out of him/her not being back online.

    The potential plotline that they found 3,000,000 years worth of software upgrades for Holly sounds like a perfect way to bring her back, and maybe with a different look.

    Oh, I thought they were upgrades for the ship? Virus scanners and the like.

    #112549
    Dave
    Participant

    >Lovely lady, but a waste of her talents.

    No, it’s a waste of her talents to describe those reactions as “lovely”, they aren’t lovely they’re wonderful. She brings Holly to life.

    #112550
    Ridley
    Participant

    Which is lovely! Isn’t it, everyone?

    #112551
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    No, it’s wonderful…which is completely different.

    #112554
    ChrisM
    Participant

    >Oh, I thought they were upgrades for the ship? Virus scanners and the like.

    As the ship’s computer I’d think Holly would be benefit from the upgrades.

    #112560
    pfm
    Participant

    Unbelievably *cringe* for Chris having to sit there while Norman goes off on his miserable old fuck routine.

    To speak about GNP in that way, publically, is petty and pathetic behaviour. The show simply does not need him.

    #112564
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Yeah, it’s incredibly bad form. Whatever his thoughts on recent Red Dwarf, his former castmate remains a part of it so to publicly criticise it while sitting next to him, is just low.

    #112565
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    What an unprofessional doddering old fart he has become.

    Or maybe he was always an unprofessional doddering old fart.

    #112566
    Turk Thrust
    Participant

    I don’t actually have a problem with the Q&A.

    Both Chris and Norman look uncomfortable at times but they must have expected that when they agreed to do it. Norman has always been critical of Series VIII and Chris makes a strong defence of Doug’s writing. I’m sure there are millions of actors who have criticised their former employers and as long as it doesn’t descend into personal insults, that’s no big deal really…

    #112569

    What an unprofessional doddering old fart he has become.

    Or maybe he was always an unprofessional doddering old fart.

    Hey, now, be fair! He hasn’t always been old.

    #112570
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    I beg to differ.

    #112572
    Somebody
    Participant

    > Because I was bored at work, here’s Hattie’s lines from my (much beloved) Series V:

    And, because I can’t sleep, parsing through these….

    > Holoship

    Hmm… nothing at all there that couldn’t be reassigned/dropped

    > The Inquisitor

    Droppable/reassignable (slight question over the “name/clearance code”, but this could be changed to a simple siren/visual warning)

    > Terrorform

    Ah, first scene that really needs Holly – the “We’ve got a visitor” scene can’t be reassigned to Kryten or Rimmer, since this is a result of them being off-ship, and it’d blow the second half of the scene to have it be Cat. Everything on the moon is reassignable/droppable, however.

    > Quarantine

    Hmmm… trickiest one. The latter two lines are droppable/reassignable, but while she doesn’t say anything particularly meaningful in the “checked/standing by” scene, Rimmer needs *someone* to react to and the other three can’t be there without blowing the later half of the episode. I suppose, in a pinch, the scene isn’t necessarily essential, and could be lost entirely…

    > Demons and Angels

    All droppable/reassignable

    > Back to Reality

    Again, one scene where she’s necessary (“Hello, for the 3000th time…” onward).

    So, two definite (Terrorform, Back to Reality) and one arguable (Quarantine) scenes that require Holly in the *whole series*. No wonder they dropped her…

    #112575
    Turk Thrust
    Participant

    I watched Meltdown again last night and noticed that even occasionally in Series IV Holly wasn’t needed in an episode.

    I guess that it’s not too surprising that bringing Norman back to the show would go on to cause problems.

    Due to his moaning nature, Norman obviously fought hard for the character in those first two series and turned it from a voiceover into a very important part of the show (certainly as important as the Cat I would argue). Therefore when he came back, I’m sure that Norman would have hoped for something vaguely substantial to do and I think there was an article on this site that stated that the way that he’d been treated at the time was a disgrace. That’s putting it too strongly though I think…

    From Doug’s perspective it makes complete sense that as Holly had done so little the last time the character was in the show, that Norman should just pop up for the occasional one-liner.

    Again when the movie was a possibility and then Back to Earth was announced, Norman must have felt that he was certain to be a part of things. So to find out that he wasn’t in the original script and that (at best) he might get a few lines at the end of one episode (maybe at the start of the next) it was bound to anger him.

    Once more understandable though that Doug sees Lister, Rimmer, Kryten and the Cat as the main characters and the others as optional extras.

    #112576
    TheLeen
    Participant

    In ealier series, Holly and Kryten co-existed and no one thought Holly was unnecessary weight.

    Plus: it’s not the character’s fault if the writers don’t give her* a good plot.

    I say write Holly back in and give her* something to do! Let her* handle the holograms, pull the Queegs and design the silly Holly-Hop drives.

    *or him. But peferably her.

    #112579
    Somebody
    Participant

    > In ealier series, Holly and Kryten co-existed and no one thought Holly was unnecessary weight.

    Depends – how much does Holly really contribute in Backwards, Camille or Dimension Jump? There are big chunks of even III and IV that she doesn’t have much to do…

    #112582
    Carlito
    Participant

    People assume that because Kryten handles the scientific exposition, Holly became surplus to requirements. But Holly had a different role to fill too, one that should never be redundant.

    Kryten is obviously a far more reliable source of information than Holly ever was: you could rely on Holly to get things arse backwards, or to invent preposterous things that didn’t work, or alleviate his boredom with practical jokes, or wind people up with his senility… all functions not covered by any other character, and all relating to the comedy aspect of the show rather than pushing a plot along.

    Sometimes a laugh for laughter’s sake should be in the script, and that’s where Holly fell by the wayside: when the scripts starting being packed with so much plot that there was little room for a laugh for laughter’s sake.

    #112583
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >But Holly had a different role to fill too, one that should never be redundant.

    But it became redundant, as that role disappeared by around Series IV. The show changed to a far more pacey, plot-driven show and spending three minutes talking about an April fool or Hol-Rock became unsustainable. The character is, by its very nature, static so there’s a danger that the show can grind to a halt if Holly has a lot of dialogue in the middle of a supposedly action-orientated sequence.

    If you removed some of the more tiresome running jokes from VI, they’d probably be room for the same amount of Holly that there was in V or VIII, but what purpose would she be serving? 90% of what she provided in V was exposition.

    If the objectives of the company change, job losses occasionally become inevitable. You could try Watchdog but I think they’ve got bigger fish to fry.

    #112595
    TheLeen
    Participant

    But I want those elements back in Red Dwarf!

    I enjoyed it more when it was a sitcom (and Holly fit in perfectly) and less when it became an adventure drama.

    Summary:
    Sitcom + Holly = Leenie happy.

    #112597
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    Series V is my favourite series of the show. I like Holly, but the show can exist without shim.

    #112607
    Danny Stephenson
    Keymaster

    schler.

    #112616
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    Gesundheit.

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