Red Dwarf on TV Tropes

[International Debris]

For some reason already forgotten, I found myself reading Red Dwarf’s entry on TV Tropes today, and noticed a few bits that I don’t recall hearing or reading elsewhere. Can anyone highlight where these come from, or if they’re bollocks? 

“Quarantine” had two different plot ideas. One every member of the crew get psi-powers. Lister got pyro-kinesis he used to cook hamburgers, Cat got mind control he would use make the rest of the crew worship him, Kryten got telekinesis he’d use to wash the clothes, and Rimmer got to see into the future…and find out he’d never get to be an officer. Another one involved the crew going into Holly’s inner workings and discovering…a woman dressed in black, talking into a camera.

The episode “Cassandra” was almost made as a two-parter. 

Mugs Murphy, the cartoon gorilla who appeared briefly in “Me 2”, was originally going to be much more prominent, and Grant Naylor even considered an episode in which he would be brought to life.

Another idea they had was for Rimmer to be transparent, but that would have meant having Barrie film his scenes separate from the rest of the cast and would have ruined the comedic timing.

Writer Doug Naylor confirmed in a 2020 interview that the Rimmer which appears in Back to Earth onwards is the original Rimmer from series 1-7, not the human Rimmer from series 8 though he admits that he has no idea how he returned from being Ace Rimmer.

[Warbodog]

I don’t have these sources to check any more, but I think I read that Mugs Murphy ‘fact’ in Howarth & Lyons’ Programme Guide (I had the up-to-VII edition) and the series V DVD booklet might have had some or all of that Quarantine stuff.

[loadoftottnumb]

I’ve definitely read Thad about Mugs more than once, and the stuff about Hollys inner workings sounds familiar. 

I know they originally wanted Rimmer black and white like in Promised Land.

[cwickham]

Doug says in the VIII scriptbook that Cassandra and Krytie TV were the only two episodes of VIII that turned out as intended, which isn’t totally contradictory with the idea that “it was almost made as a two-parter” but would seem to be quite tricky to reconcile.

[Rudolph]

[Warbodog]

I looked it up and Future Producer of Series IX helpfully transcribed that section of the V booklet in this thread, in which Ellard(?) wrote:

One could probably write a book based on the ideas Rob Grant’s and Doug Naylor’s fertile imaginations came up with that were almost used on Red Dwarf.  Quarantine provides a particularly entertaining ‘what if?’ game for the inclined – as, at one point, the show was to feature each of the crew gaining their own psi-power.

The limitless possibilities boggle the mind.  Lister using pyrokinesis to flame-grill his own burgers.  The Cat, using mind-control to make everyone worship him.  Kryten levitating laundry back to the cupboard.  Oh, and Rimmer able to predict the future…and realising  he really isn’t going to be promoted – ever. Or something like that.

In one rejected concept, the crew would have been shown inside Holly, finding – of all things – a woman sitting behind a mirror, talking into a camera.

So the Holly one sounds like it was an unrelated episode and the Quarantine examples are Andrew Ellard’s jokey speculations misinterpreted as behind-the-scenes trivia and spewed onto the internet.

[International Debris]

That definitely makes sense. It also states that Kryten was going to stay human at the end of DNA, only it got retconned when the episode was changed from being the last in the series, which is another example of a jokey story being taken rather too literally. 

I love the idea of Holly turning out to be a woman talking into a camera. It was absolutely the right decision not to write that episode, but as an idea it’s wonderfully bonkers.

[RunawayTrain]

Writer Doug Naylor confirmed in a 2020 interview that the Rimmer which appears in Back to Earth onwards is the original Rimmer from series 1-7, not the human Rimmer from series 8 though he admits that he has no idea how he returned from being Ace Rimmer.

Yes I definitely remember this but helpfully(!) forget where exactly.

[Warbodog]

Series X Rimmer has to be an up-to-speed memory blend for all the references to make sense, whether in the form of an older or newer hologram, so Doug didn’t have to throw out his own character arc and continuity if he actually cared about it, but I guess it was all a waste of time after all.

[Warbodog]

I love the idea of Holly turning out to be a woman talking into a camera. It was absolutely the right decision not to write that episode, but as an idea it’s wonderfully bonkers.

Perfect if they’d done some kind of trippy ‘Won’t Get Fooled Again’ story or sequence. There’s still time.

[Flap Jack]

Series X Rimmer has to be an up-to-speed memory blend for all the references to make sense, whether in the form of an older or newer hologram, so Doug didn’t have to throw out his own character arc and continuity if he actually cared about it, but I guess it was all a waste of time after all.

I’m not sure he has to be, if he’s just the older hologram returned. When does Dave era Rimmer reference anything that he could only know about if he had nano-Rimmer’s memories?

[Warbodog]

When does Dave era Rimmer reference anything that he could only know about if he had nano-Rimmer’s memories?

The joke about the VIII cliffhanger in The Beginning, I don’t think he’d be adamantly claiming that on behalf of a different/imposter Rimmer.

[Warbodog]

The last episode of Red Dwarf can do that gag from Airplane II.

[Formica]

To be clear, if we’re dealing with Stoke Rimmer right now, The Beginning is a rather worthless story, unless:

(1) Rimmer lived through a series of failures as Ace, and returned for his fluke glory to the post-Good… moments, or

(2) Jumped immediately from Stoke to Good…

where he

(a) Saved the ship after nano-Rimmer had died, thus ending (or temporarily putting on hold) the long legacy of Aces Rimmer, or

(b) Pulled a little swaperation to send nano-Rimmer out as Ace, then saved the ship.

I don’t think he needs the prison memories if he’s been told what happened. Not like he really developed in there. While I do think the memories of failure in (1) give a minor added weight to the story, I find (2) rather funnier.

Not as though this hasn’t all been said before.

[Flap Jack]

Right, I thought the Only the Good… references in The Beginning were deliberately ambiguous. It could be that he experienced the whole episode as nano-Rimmer, or it could be that OG Rimmer returned after the credits and (inadvertently?) saved the day.

[Frank Smeghammer]

Keep in mind that when Holograms are restored after death they have memories of everything they experienced after the initial upload, which the novels would have us understand is a basic part of induction to the ship.

Your personality and likeness is uploaded the moment you sign up. Then Red Dwarf continues to track your life on board up to your dying breath, so your hologram knows everything right up until you say your last “Gazpacho Soup”.

Also, Lister regressed to Series 1 Lister in XII and it was said they could rebuild his entire life experiences since the age of 23 simply on ship CCTV footage! (one of the reasons M-Corp fell so drastically in my estimations after a few years).

They can definitely merge Nano Rimmer’s miniscule experiences through Series VIII with Original Rimmer’s memory given all of this. Extremely easily for many reasons.

Personally, if I didn’t have any memory of Series VIII, I’d much rather not remember it at all. Some things are best left buried.

[Flap Jack]

I agree they could have merged nano Rimmer’s memories into OG Rimmer, but I’m not sure what the benefit would have been of doing that, and it likely would have been problematic. Because from Rimmer’s perspective, Series 1 and Series VIII happened at the same point in his personal history, so that would have been what’s known in the biz as a “merge conflict”.

So either they would have had to figure out a way for Rimmer to hold both contradictory sets of memories at the same time, or otherwise they could have had the Series VIII memories overwrite the Series 1 memories (Thanks for the Memory style) – which would presumably make Rimmer think that Series 2 happened right after Series VIII. I don’t know why you’d want either of these things to happen.

[Ridley]

I’d rather nano-Rimmer auto-acquired holo!Rimmer’s backup data when he got revived at the end of VIII.

[International Debris]

I’m not sure he would want those memories because they include the time they made a dinosaur shit itself on Hollister and when he pulverised his balls with a mallet. 

[Rudolph]

Original Rimmer came back, Nano Rimmer died, Kill Crazy becomes new Ace Rimmer.

[Frank Smeghammer]

I agree they could have merged nano Rimmer’s memories into OG Rimmer, but I’m not sure what the benefit would have been of doing that, and it likely would have been problematic. Because from Rimmer’s perspective, Series 1 and Series VIII happened at the same point in his personal history, so that would have been what’s known in the biz as a “merge conflict”.
So either they would have had to figure out a way for Rimmer to hold both contradictory sets of memories at the same time, or otherwise they could have had the Series VIII memories overwrite the Series 1 memories (Thanks for the Memory style) – which would presumably make Rimmer think that Series 2 happened right after Series VIII. I don’t know why you’d want either of these things to happen.

Well why indeed… 

I’m afraid I can’t pitch in on the “why” but the “how” is quite straightforward more or less.

I can’t speak to “why” because personally, I think it is better to consider all of VIII and vast chunks of BTE non-canon, slide in some assumptions, and move on.

End of Nanarchy they find Red Dwarf again. The crew aren’t resurrected. Rimmer retires as Ace and returns to be normal old Arnie. Kochanski leaves Lister and disappears. The conversation had in The Beginning refers to a different incident that happened off-screen years before, in the vein of “The Vidal Beast of Sharmutt II” or “The Pan-dimensional Liquid Beast from the Mogadon Cluster”.

The longer you think about VIII the less sense it makes. It is far more entertaining when you consider the whole thing a non-canon Comic Relief sketch or something. You almost enjoy the dinosaur nonsense and the basketball boners when you don’t consider it proper Dwarf.

Just my thoughts of course.

[Ridley]

I’m not sure he would want those memories because they include the time they made a dinosaur shit itself on Hollister and when he pulverised his balls with a mallet. 

The sudden rape trauma probably isn’t ideal either.

[Future Producer of Series IX – aaaaany day now]

Kill Crazy becomes new Ace Rimmer.

Credit to Moonlight for the caption.

[Formica]

vast chunks of BTE non-canon

Nuh uh.

[Moonlight]

I get the argument for VIII, but why exclude BtE?

[Future Producer of Series IX – aaaaany day now]

I fear SmegHammer may have been taken in by the uneducated normies’ popular opinion on BTE, the one circulated on Facebook by people who’ve probably never even seen it.

[Moonlight]

Sure, BtE isn’t that funny, but neither is Series VIII and those types seem to lap that shit up and consider it undeniably classic Dwarf.

[Joe]

I think it is better to consider all of VIII and vast chunks of BTE non-canon, slide in some assumptions, and move on.
End of Nanarchy they find Red Dwarf again. The crew aren’t resurrected. Rimmer retires as Ace and returns to be normal old Arnie. Kochanski leaves Lister and disappears. The conversation had in The Beginning refers to a different incident that happened off-screen years before, in the vein of “The Vidal Beast of Sharmutt II” or “The Pan-dimensional Liquid Beast from the Mogadon Cluster”.
The longer you think about VIII the less sense it makes. It is far more entertaining when you consider the whole thing a non-canon Comic Relief sketch or something. You almost enjoy the dinosaur nonsense and the basketball boners when you don’t consider it proper Dwarf.
Just my thoughts of course.

I think this is generally my approach to VIII now. That way, in addition to the Rimmer mess created,  I also don’t have to think about what might have happened to the other prisoners once they had the run of the ship. 

[Frank Smeghammer]

I fear SmegHammer may have been taken in by the uneducated normies’ popular opinion on BTE, the one circulated on Facebook by people who’ve probably never even seen it.

Hold up, play nice here! Maybe you’ve been taken in by the popular view on G&T that Back to Earth is actually good?!

Look, it’s not totally irredeemable, there are really good moments and a few good gags that pass you by until you watch a few times. Overall though, not all that funny and I guess the “it was all a dream” ending doesn’t translate well past Back to Reality, the OG Undisputed Champion of this category.

Back to Earth is to Back to Reality as Emohawk is to Original Polymorph

[International Debris]

I think a lot of BtE’s qualities come from the fact that, after VIII was the last ever Red Dwarf for a long time – and what seemed like would always be the case – it was a return to character-based, non-nob-gag Dwarf. It certainly feels really refreshing after eight episodes of hideous nonsense, and I think it’s actually mostly a decent dramatic story. But at the same time, the vast majority of the gags are quite poor and its dramatic tone without the audience feels very at odds with Red Dwarf’s overall feel so I totally get why some people prefer to ignore it. 

[Future Producer of Series IX – aaaaany day now]

Hold up, play nice here!

You have met me, right?

Maybe you’ve been taken in by the popular view on G&T that Back to Earth is actually good?!

No, I’ve actually seen it and formed an opinion on it.

Look, it’s not totally irredeemable, there are really good moments and a few good gags that pass you by until you watch a few times. Overall though, not all that funny and I guess the “it was all a dream” ending doesn’t translate well past Back to Reality, the OG Undisputed Champion of this category.
Back to Earth is to Back to Reality as Emohawk is to Original Polymorph

Still not seeing why you’d want to lump it in with VIII and entirely retcon its existence on the basis of it being alright but not “as good” as the episodes that precede it, especially when it sets up a lot of Series X’s plot points such as Holly being offline and Lister searching for Kochanski. That seems kinda fallacious reasoning when there’s plenty of episodes that seem more worthy of retconning out of existence, even within the bubble – Timeslides for one, Emohawk for another.

I mean, are you seriously telling me that you’re gonna let some naff jokes and an underwhelming and derivative ending be the basis for disregarding some of the best acting of Craig’s career?

[Warbodog]

I get the argument for VIII, but why exclude BtE?

Why does VII get a pass these days? The jammy goit.

I fear SmegHammer may have been taken in by the uneducated normies’ popular opinion on BTE, the one circulated on Facebook by people who’ve probably never even seen it.

I’ve watched it three times now and my opinion’s fallen considerably each time. I loved meta stuff at the time, but I’m bored of it now.

[Frank Smeghammer]

I won’t quote all that Future Producer but I’ll just say – those are the bits I’d keep!

I prefer not to imagine Dave Lister going to Coronation Street and meeting Craig Charles, even in the confines of a Squid Dream, for example

[Future Producer of Series IX – aaaaany day now]

Okay, fair point.

[International Debris]

I’m sorry for starting a thread in which it’s suggested that BtE is better than Timeslides.

[Moonlight]

At least we can all hate Timewave.

[RunawayTrain]

My opinion on BtE was leaning towards favourable at first (I enjoyed it, didn’t really understand it, couldn’t remember what happened, but there were enough character moments to still feel like Dwarf – and more so than VIII because these were very much the escapades of the Boys from the Dwarf in a pickle and alone in their reality, unlike VIII with a whole crew), fell very low after a few viewings, then rebounded slightly again in the rewatch before the Coral Canvass – still lower than my initial opinion, but the first chunk of part I was SO REFRESHING after the overcrowded and rubbish nature of VIII.  That and the fact it’s them against the problem, alone in needing to get back home, are its redeeming features to make it not completely terrible. 

I do tend to forget it happened though, to be honest, it’s not really at the forefront of my mental Red Dwarf file and I only really think about it if prompted.  VIII is sadly more prominent in my mental file, but in the naughty corner with Timewave cowering behind it.  VII tries to distance itself at the back and plays its music to try to make me forget it’s supposed to be nearer the naughty corner than the rest of the others.  It sometimes almost gets away with it too, until I actually think about it and remember.

[Unrumble]

VII tries to distance itself at the back and plays its music to try to make me forget it’s supposed to be nearer the naughty corner than the rest of the others.  It sometimes almost gets away with it too, until I actually think about it and remember.

[Moonlight]

but the first chunk of part I was SO REFRESHING after the overcrowded and rubbish nature of VIII.

Maybe because I didn’t bother sitting through Series VIII first, but I now find Part 1 of BtE to be incredibly weak by itself. The jokes tend to usually fall pretty flat, and you’ve even got a “they’re standing right behind you” routine which was already a tired sitcom cliché when the show did it two episodes earlier in 1999. On my last viewing of the Director’s Cut I started getting into it in Parts 2 and 3, which makes me endlessly baffled as to how Part 1 ranks higher than the others when it’s not very funny and definitely way less interesting and dramatic than what follows. The portal scene is really when everything starts to pick up for me.

Are people genuinely just rating it higher because it’s on the ship?

Also, the Jammy Dodger scene isn’t super great but it’s better than a lot of what stayed in, and I’m curious why they didn’t add it to the Director’s Cut.

[Flap Jack]

Totally agreed that Part 1 is the weak link in Back to Earth. In the Coral Canvass I gave it 2 points less than the other 2 parts.

But even if it’s bad, I would never lump it in with Series VIII. Series VIII is in a league of its own. And as an extra, it just so happens to also occupy the “minimum continuity importance” sweet spot.

[Moonlight]

Oh absolutely. The only thing in the same league of bad as Series 8 can get is Timewave, and that’s its own flavor of suck.

Back to Earth was my first new episodes so I’ll always have a soft spot for it. Same for Series X, as ropey as it clearly is a decade later.

[International Debris]

The rewatch was the first time I’d actually bothered with the three part version since broadcast, and it was really quite staggering how poor the first part is. I’d previously thought it was the best because it’s the most traditionally Dwarfy, but the jokes are terrible, the drama of the later parts is missing, and being on the shop without the audience makes it just feel really odd and cold. 

[Unrumble]

As opposed to being in the shop without the audience, which is a decent scene, though it features an entirely Chris Barrie, un-Rimmer ‘Northerner’ impression. 

Although he does have that “please rush me my portable walrus polishing kit” moment, so maybe it’s not so out of character… 

[International Debris]

I’m not massively fond of the three of them doing silly northern accents but it doesn’t bother me massively, but Rimmer’s being extremely camp and accompanied by that face is pretty horrid. 

[Unrumble]

I suppose it’s a fairly textbook example of his rubbery over-gurning in the Dave era. 

[Moonlight]

Which is noteworthy because he doesn’t really do that in Back to Earth.

[Ridley]

Moonlight genuinely doesn’t know that Barrie has switched his face.

[Future Producer of Series IX – aaaaany day now]

I’m sorry for starting a thread in which it’s suggested that BtE is better than Timeslides.

I’m sorry you think it isn’t.

[Author]

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