Red Dwarf Tiermaker lists

[Warbodog]

We’re between survey cycles, and it’s a slightly different and maybe clearer way of expressing yourself than trying to come up with a strict hierarchy, so why not waste some time? (Drag ‘n’ drop and save as an image).

I ended up annoying myself in the end, but I’m fairly happy with my groups, apart from the stupid middle. (Chronological order).

Credit to list creator John Mannion for coming up with identifiable thumbnails and bothering to do the colour scheme + font.

Topic

[Rushy]

I don’t think “he only committed genocide because he didn’t see them as people” is an especially strong defense.

Would you believe these funhouse celebrity robots are self-aware people with feelings? Even in a society where AI is occasionally accepted as being alive, I think there is enough reasonable doubt. 

It’s certainly not the same thing as shamelessly stealing the body of a flesh and blood person that you’ve known closely for years. 

[Doomitron]

I remember thinking the first time I saw Meltdown Rimmer only acted like that because Lister threw his lightbee in his mouth at the beginning and Kryten asked if his “sanity chip was screwed in” but I don’t think that was the intended implication.

[Rushy]

I think that line was there specifically to justify the characterisation in case it didn’t work for audiences.

[Doomitron]

I just skimmed through it real quick, I also forgot when Kryten openly speculates Rimmer is acting that way because Lister “chewed on his lightbee”. So I guess its intended to be ambiguous.

[Frank Smeghammer]

I mean if you’ve been watching Red Dwarf and seeing Rimmer as a kind, decent and honourable man, you’ve totally missed something.

– The man who can barely contain his excitement at watching who he thinks is Lister get blown up and is gleefully awaiting when he can watch it happen again in Future Echoes.

– The man who is perfectly happy to switch Holly off for an upgrade in Queeg

– The man who happily allows Kryten to disappear on a suicide mission to “get rid of him” in Camille

And or course the Meltdown and Bodyswap issues already mentioned. It’s all perfectly in character

[Flap Jack]

Would you believe these funhouse celebrity robots are self-aware people with feelings Even in a society where AI is occasionally accepted as being alive, I think there is enough reasonable doubt.

They make it pretty clear that the waxdroids are sentient in basically the same way that Kryten is, and not only that, Rimmer hears it first-hand:

There’s not much else Rob and Doug could have done to spell out that the waxdroids are people as much as any artificial being in Red Dwarf is. If they aren’t, then there’s no real reason to even care about the Good Droids vs. Evil Droids plot, beyond Lister and Cat being captured.

[Doomitron]

I mean if you’ve been watching Red Dwarf and seeing Rimmer as a kind, decent and honourable man, you’ve totally missed something.

I don’t think anybody’s questioning if Rimmer isn’t an asshole but I also don’t think its a difficult concept to grasp to have a character that regularly and reliably gives correct information openly speculating if another character hasn’t been manipulated in some way as a method of generating ambiguity behind the cause of their actions.

[Rushy]

I mean if you’ve been watching Red Dwarf and seeing Rimmer as a kind, decent and honourable man, you’ve totally missed something.

– The man who can barely contain his excitement at watching who he thinks is Lister get blown up and is gleefully awaiting when he can watch it happen again in Future Echoes.

– The man who is perfectly happy to switch Holly off for an upgrade in Queeg

– The man who happily allows Kryten to disappear on a suicide mission to “get rid of him” in Camille

And or course the Meltdown and Bodyswap issues already mentioned. It’s all perfectly in character

The character works when he is all bark and no bite. Someone who is socially neurotic and bitter and spiteful, but deep down wants to do the right thing and be accepted. That’s what makes him pitiable and real. 

I don’t like Future Echoes much anyway, but at least there you can argue that it’s very early on and it’s also not Rimmer himself threatening to harm Lister. It’s just him being extremely petty. By Stasis Leak, you have him almost openly admitting that he appreciates Lister’s company. 

Rimmer is a bigoted little shit, so yes, okay, he sees mechanicals as glorified tools. But his relationship with Lister is in my view supposed to represent the best of him. If he’s gleefully trying to rob Lister of his life, then it’s not the Red Dwarf I love. 

[Technopeasant]

Meanwhile his depiction in Bodysnatcher was actually less unhinged than I expected and arguably less than in Bodyswap.

[Moonlight]

If he’s gleefully trying to rob Lister of his life, then it’s not the Red Dwarf I love. 

I see his behavior in Bodyswap as being comparable to the way a drug addict might steal from someone they love, or go to broadly crazy lengths to get their fix. Rimmer hates being dead and is so overcome with finally having a body again he’ll do anything to keep it. It’s extreme but the motivation makes sense to me and doesn’t feel inconsistent with the character.

[Rushy]

I see his behavior in Bodyswap as being comparable to the way a drug addict might steal from someone they love, or go to broadly crazy lengths to get their fix. 

That angle could work if there was any pathos. It’s not like Renton from Trainspotting celebrated his lifestyle. A single observation dome scene (and severely downplaying Rimmer’s smugness at the end) would add so much. 

Honestly, I feel like Lister is more in character in Tikka to Ride than Rimmer is in Bodyswap. At least there, he’s just being an idiot and not putting a gun to someone else’s head. 

[Doomitron]

If we’re factoring in Timeslides its very in-character for Lister. I’m fine with Rimmer in Bodyswap and don’t see any issue with it honestly, its got one of my favorite Rimmer moments in it too when he pretends he lost Lister’s arm at the end.

[Moonlight]

The version of Bodyswap with pathos is a very different episode. You could do that story but stapling an observation dome scene to the episode we got would be enormous tonal whiplash after how crazy and broad everything before it was.

We need the version of Bodyswap that would’ve existed in BTL the novel.

[International Debris]

I was like “I’m enjoying seeing some unconventional rankings” until I saw Bodyswap in D tier and now I’m going to switch you off until we reach Earth.

Wow, I got to Cured being in S before getting a headache and having to give up.

[Rushy]

You could do that story but stapling an observation dome scene to the episode we got would be enormous tonal whiplash after how crazy and broad everything before it was. 

You say that, but I’m watching Lost in Space, where Dr Smith embarks on a new boxing career in the same episode where Professor Robinson plays Russian roulette. And it works and comes together. So if they can do it… 

[Moonlight]

That sounds like an A and B plot structure which is different from what Bodyswap is doing. My argument is that suddenly introducing melancholic pathos (in the form of something analogous to an observation dome scene as you suggest) into the end of Bodyswap, as it otherwise already exists, would be jarring and you would need to make signifcant changes to the rest of the rest of the episode for it to not feel that way.

[Rushy]

and you would need to make signifcant changes to the rest of the rest of the episode for it to not feel that way.

Why? I mean, aside from the observation dome scene, is Better than Life really that morose/emotional? Until the meltdown at the end, it’s just one daft gag following another. 
They could easily slip in an early scene of Rimmer moping about being dead, then do the rest of the episode, and have the climax be less about Rimmer turning into a slimeball cartoon villain (“go ahead, make my day!”) and more about him desperately trying to enjoy his life to the fullest before Lister catches him, knowing that it’s inevitable. 

[Moonlight]

Why? I mean, aside from the observation dome scene, is Better than Life really that morose/emotional?

Better Than Life gets crazy after the observation dome scene has already happened. Either way, what you’re describing now is changing the episode more than adding an observation dome scene at the end which was the specific thing I was taking issue with as a solution.

[Warbodog]

Bodyswap feels tight enough as it is, since the plot kicks off after about 7 minutes of the auto-destruct appetiser and there’s an exciting chase climax. I wouldn’t want to lose more to fit in another scene, with the exception of Cat and Kryten’s weird laughter.

[Rushy]

Well, at the end of the day, if it works for you that’s all that matters. I just wish it wasn’t so offputting for me. 

[Turk Thrust]

[Doomitron]

I’ll overlook the Officer Rimmer placement and respect a fellow Mechocracy hater.

[Moonlight]

I’ll overlook the Officer Rimmer placement

I won’t.

[Technopeasant]

I won’t even look, then everybody’s happy.

[Frank Smeghammer]

Officer Rimmer is not good.

Cracking tier list there, a few wobbly placements but on the whole pretty much spot on. Nice to see a fellow Future Echoes enjoyer, that episode always get criminally underrated from what I’ve seen.

[Frank Smeghammer]

[Turk Thrust]

I won’t.

:)

Well, I’ve watched the Dave era episodes a lot less than the others, so I’m sure my views on them will change a little in the future.

[Unrumble]

Nice to see a fellow Future Echoes enjoyer, that episode always get criminally underrated from what I’ve seen.

Perhaps it’s more that the small minority who aren’t as keen on it, are more vocal about that fact?

[Dave]

[Podey]

I LIKE SERIES VII, OK.

[International Debris]

I get that it isn’t the most well loved bubble episode, but putting Waiting for God on the same level as Pete and Timewave?!

[Podey]

I think I’ve only watched ‘Timewave’ once and I would watch ‘Pete’ over ‘Waiting For God’.

TBF it is one I always skip so might be due a reappraisal.

[Doomitron]

Officer Rimmer is not good.

Why

[Moonlight]

Officer Rimmer is good, it just falls to fucking pieces a couple minutes before it ends.

[Ben Saunders]

A lot of things have bad reputations solely because the very end of it is poor. Star Trek V is a big example. It’s a fun movie. I don’t care if you think the last 10 minutes are underwhelming, there are 96 other minutes to enjoy. Officer Rimmer is good for like 92% of its runtime. Justice isn’t bad because Lister falls down a hole. Tikka to Ride isn’t bad because they brutally beat lister to a pulp at the end (no, it’s bad because of all of the rest of it, I hear you say).

[Rushy]

Star Trek V is a big example. It’s a fun movie.

I honestly think this is a massive understatement. Star Trek V is one of the only two Star Trek films that actually tries to be like TOS. Exploring strange new worlds and civilizations, and seeing something of our humanity in it. 

Not that I don’t love the others, but they’re films that could exist in almost any sci-fi franchise. 

[si]

Officer Rimmer is good, it just falls to fucking pieces a couple minutes before it ends.

It has an ending?

It more sort of…stops.

[Warbodog]

I’ve had no belated appreciation for Star Trek V, I thought it was as wank at 11 as I do now. But there are still 3 or 4 worse Star Trek films, sadly.

[Technopeasant]

I wouldn’t say I appreciate Star Trek V but I nonetheless do enjoy it. Can’t say that for The Motion Picture.

[Warbodog]

I like that one, but I treat it as Star Trek: The Motion Picture – The Original Soundtrack – The Really Extravagant Music Video.

[Ben Saunders]

It’s genuinely astounding just how dull The Motion Picture gets. I put it on for the first time a few years ago thinking, I can do this, I watch boring shit all the time. But man. I did watch the Director’s Cut or whatever though. The ending make up for it.

Beeelllllaaaayyyyy tttthhhaaaattttt phhhhaaassseerrr orrrrddddeeeeerrrrrrr.

[Rushy]

Aside from the entry into V’Ger and the wormhole, I’m not sure what’s dull about it. It’s arguably one of Kirk and Spock’s most vital adventures from a character development perspective. Especially Spock. This is the story where he finally comes to terms with his identity. 

[Technopeasant]

I mean, I dislike 2001 and Solaris too so it’s certainly partly a me problem (I do like 2010 though). The subtext of my last post was that I appreciate TMP but I don’t enjoy it.

[Ben Saunders]

Aside from the entry into V’Ger and the wormhole, I’m not sure what’s dull about it

Sssssssspppppppppaaaaaaaaaaaccccccccccccccceeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Podey]

I bloody love The Motion Picture! I’ve been watching all of Star Trek for the first time for the last few years so I only saw it for the first time in around 2023 though.

[Rushy]

I bloody love The Motion Picture! 

A gentleman!

[Moonlight]

I mean, I dislike 2001 and Solaris too so it’s certainly partly a me problem (I do like 2010 though). The subtext of my last post was that I appreciate TMP but I don’t enjoy it.

I love all three of these movies (and 2010 is pretty good too).

[Warbodog]

I didn’t like Solaris as much I hoped, but 2001’s one of my all-time faves, even if it admittedly wouldn’t exist without Dave Hollins: Space Cadet.

[Author]

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