Series 2 -> Series 3

[Asclepius]

Watched ‘Backwards’ with the kids last night as we go from Series 1 onwards, watching each episode in turn. My youngest is particularly prone to enjoying spotting how things have changed in things he watches. The intro sequence got comment, the introduction of Kryten too, and he wanted me to explain the text that had scrolled past too fast. Also, apparently Cat’s accent has changed. And he doesn’t like the new bunk room.

My question for those of you grey-haired enough to remember, what was it like jumping from Series 2 to Series 3? What did you think of Kryten suddenly being there? What did you think of the text intro? Were you even able to read it? How about the style of the show changing? Previously, I think every episode has been pretty much set on RD. And this one very much isn’t. How did that go down?

Topic

[Warbodog]

I think there’s probably more chance now of hearing from younger people (or foreigners) who streamed the series in order, but then they probably wouldn’t have had the time to get so used to the way things were. Then again, The End to Backwards was less than 2 years in the first place (Feb 1988 – Nov 1989).

[tombow]

I thought it was better and looked and felt more like a sci fi movie. Sorry, I didn’t have very sophisticated reasoning as a kid.

[Ben Saunders]

Managing to read all of the opening crawl on my dad’s off-air VHS recording as a child was quite the feat, I seem to remember. Not only are you fighting the limitations of pause-play-pause-rewind-play-pause-play on a VHS, but also the grey interference lines obscuring half the picture and the general low-quality-ness of it all. Kids who had DVDs had it too good. But these days with online video, pausing and going back in small increments is a pain in the arse as well, with the player controls always getting in the way of what you want to see and it being impossible to go back in increments smaller than 10 seconds without having to contend with the shitty progress bar that is often even less precise.

[Cardinal_Hordriss]

I couldn’t read the text intro until I got the VHS and was able to pause it.

The intro change was perhaps the thing that I remember most because it was SO different. 

The changes to the interior of the ship were great as I recall, much less grim, and I never understood why they didn’t move to an executive suite or something similar within a week of Lister getting out of stasis.

I did notice a big change in Cat’s behaviour. He seemed like less of a cartoon character. 
Kryten coming back wasn’t a big deal for me but his accent struck me as a bit odd.

I much preferred Starbug to Blue Midget, interior and exterior.

The change I liked most was Hattie as Holly. In my pre-school mind it made more sense for Holly to be a lady. Over time I felt she had some great bits despite how Kryten almost completely subsumed the role of the ship’s computer. I remember laughing far too much at a single line of hers in Timeslides when she tells Rimmer how Lister died in the new timeline and he asks if she had any photographs – well not of that, no.

[MANI506]

I was 8 and a fan of series 2 (particularly Queeg which was the one episode I had taped) and was there on the night Backwards aired. I think I remember the Radio Times listing it as ‘Red Dwarf III’ which was odd. I just took the fast scroll as a goofy Spaceballs style joke. I was used to funky theme tunes like Count Duckula but the new intro didn’t sit well with me. Too snazzy, too good. However the tactic of starting with big laughs and a whacky concept paid off with me as I was fully on board by the end of the episode. 

[Podey]

The Gallifrey Gals’ reaction to Backwards and beyond is probably a good indicator. They had quite a strong response to the changes, but then quickly accustomed to them.

[Warbodog]

Glad to have my insinuation that OG viewers would all be dead by now or too confused and infirm to use a forum refuted.

I think I remember the Radio Times listing it as ‘Red Dwarf III’ which was odd.

According to Genome, they went with the full “Red Dwarf III …the Saga Continuums” for the whole run.

[International Debris]

The Gallifrey Gals’ reaction to Backwards and beyond is probably a good indicator. They had quite a strong response to the changes, but then quickly accustomed to them.

My partner’s reaction was the same, one of “erm, this isn’t the same show”. I think it doesn’t help that Backwards is the least like 1 & 2 of the whole series (honestly, other than that and Polymorph, I don’t find the rest of the series that big a leap), and also quite a gimmicky one that’s probably least tied to the more dialogue-heavy humour of the first two series. 

[ReddiShadow]

I was used to funky theme tunes like Count Duckula but the new intro didn’t sit well with me. Too snazzy, too good.

[MANI506]

Excellent Reddishadow!

[ReddiShadow]

Glad it landed, making memes out of the extras without the Smegadrive to do the work for you is a complete pain in the arse

[MANI506]

Glad to have my insinuation that OG viewers would all be dead by now or too confused and infirm to use a forum refuted.

I think I remember the Radio Times listing it as ‘Red Dwarf III’ which was odd.

According to Genome, they went with the full “Red Dwarf III …the Saga Continuums” for the whole run.

The saga continuums being added is even more bizarre and charming! I am confused though as I was born in 1980 and therefore 9 not 8.

[clem]

According to Genome, they went with the full “Red Dwarf III …the Saga Continuums” for the whole run.

Interesting. It’s weird how they used the Roman numerals in the title back then in listings magazines etc., and yet they didn’t appear on screen til VII. Of course, they didn’t do it for the first two series, hence the G&T house style of referring to them as 1 and 2 and not I and II. 

[Dave]

Interesting. It’s weird how they used the Roman numerals in the title back then in listings magazines etc., and yet they didn’t appear on screen til VII.

I’d forgotten too, but Backwards has this:

[clem]

… Well except for that, obviously.

[Asclepius]

Thanks, all. Really interesting!

[Asclepius]

And we continue with Series 3. Marooned was on the other night.

The youngest child’s opinion: “Is this where it dips?”

Oh, you sweet Summer child, it is not, no. He wasn’t a fan.

“What’s virginity?” being a good line. Following that discussion, I decided to talk all over the end of the ‘Committee for the Liberation and Integration….’ scene in Polymorph.

The eldest had to shield her face that she was laughing so hard at the Lister/Kryten scene. The youngest having previously misunderstood (or not listened hard enough to) the scenes where Kryten is plugging in his vacuum attachment and discussing his other potential groinal attachments.

“Is that meant to be his penis?”

Anyway, Polymorph very successful. I think his favourite’s still ‘Better Than Life’ though. 

[Warbodog]

I’ve never really got Marooned. I like how it stands out, but I don’t find the conversations more noteworthy than the average bunkroom chats in earlier episodes (which I love anyway). The survival aspect is good drama, but they’re in trouble all the time after this point anyway.

Never though all that much of Polymorph, I think of it more as a nice colourful one to look at than something substantial.

[Dave]

I’ve never really got Marooned. I like how it stands out, but I don’t find the conversations more noteworthy than the average bunkroom chats in earlier episodes

I feel like it gets a lot more real and more personal than those did. It’s a different, slightly more serious take on the same dynamic – but maybe more importantly, it’s a conscious decision to make that kind of exchange the centrepiece of the episode rather than just dressing around the edges.

[Warbodog]

I also sort of answered myself by saying it combines some of the best stuff that came before (Rimmer-Lister scenes) and after (survival premise).

[Dave]

I also sort of answered myself by saying it combines some of the best stuff that came before (Rimmer-Lister scenes) and after (survival premise).

Yeah it’s basically the transition episode between 1-2 style character interactions and III-VI style peril.

[Asclepius]

I really like both Marooned and Polymorph….but the book versions of both are so much better. You never get the real sense of peril in Marooned that Lister actually *is* that cold or that hungry. Having Rimmer disappearing…”I’ll be baacck truuuuust meeeeeee” etc. is very effective and quite emotional.

[Rushy]

I thought the subtle way the book explained the change in Red Dwarf interiors by having it all become dilapidated and rundown while the crew are in Better than Life was neat

[Cardinal_Hordriss]

I thought the subtle way the book explained the change in Red Dwarf interiors by having it all become dilapidated and rundown while the crew are in Better than Life was neat

But it didn’t change over the 3 million years Lister was in stasis…

[Rushy]

But it didn’t change over the 3 million years Lister was in stasis…

I don’t think there was any oxygen in the ship during that time. It’s the only way to explain why it’s preserved so well over three million years. 
Also, Holly was still active. During most of BTL, he’s deactivated and the skutters are doing whatever they want. 

[Moonlight]

Oh sure, blame the skutters.

[Dax101]

I’ve never really got Marooned. I like how it stands out, but I don’t find the conversations more noteworthy than the average bunkroom chats in earlier episodes (which I love anyway). The survival aspect is good drama, but they’re in trouble all the time after this point anyway.
Never though all that much of Polymorph, I think of it more as a nice colourful one to look at than something substantial.

I think what helps the conversations in Marooned is the survival aspect of it. It has the most isolated feeling to it than any other episode of the shows run.

[Rushy]

Marooned has a nice atmosphere, but I don’t think the conversations have any bite or depth to them. Given the premise, they could have done something special, maybe about Lister confronting his death while Rimmer contemplates a perpetual electronic existence alone in Starbug. 

Maybe that would be too close to Future Echoes, but it would at least add some tension. As is, Marooned feels like a camping trip where Lister complains about forgetting his pack of sausages. I never get the vibe that he’s in any danger. 

Dear Dave unironically captures the show’s melancholy tone better. 

[Dave]

Marooned feels like a camping trip where Lister complains about forgetting his pack of sausages. I never get the vibe that he’s in any danger. 

I rewatched it a couple of nights ago and was surprised by just how morbid it is in places. You definitely get the sense that Lister is contemplating possibly ending his days there.

[Rushy]

[Dave]

[Dax101]

Marooned has a nice atmosphere, but I don’t think the conversations have any bite or depth to them. Given the premise, they could have done something special, maybe about Lister confronting his death while Rimmer contemplates a perpetual electronic existence alone in Starbug.  

I think that would be too morbid. Even more so if that became the main talking point of the episode.

There is no food and without heat lister could freeze to death. So it really is about trying to keep lister going till they can hopefully be found. 

[Rushy]

I think that would be too morbid.

points to the Garbage World chapter in Better Than Life

[Android 72264Y]

To me, Series II is a close second to IV because of its melancholic less-is-more ethos driving the narrative throughline. Rimmer gazing listlessly at the stars after discovering his social father’s passing makes his downward spiral in BTL that extra tragic. Special mention must go to the Observation Dome/Holly reprise from Queeg, punchline notwithstanding that level of poignancy always works. 

[Flap Jack]

points to the Garbage World chapter in Better Than Life

Garbage World is an excellent section in a novel, but it would make for a dreadful episode of a sitcom. Outside of the backstory, it’s completely missing both character interaction and jokes. Those are kind of important…

[Rushy]

my point is that Lister’s character can be taken to the brink of sanity without sacrificing comedy. Farscape did this sort of thing all the time, and that show is hysterically funny. 

[Flap Jack]

Well, there may have been a way to make Marooned even more bleak without sacrificing the comedy, I’m just saying that Garbage World isn’t proof of that, because the way Garbage World achieved it was to sacrifice the comedy.

[Rushy]

It’s black comedy.

[Flap Jack]

Hmm. Possibly my reaction is the minority one, but I didn’t personally find it funny. It was just bleak to me. Black comedy occurs a lot in Red Dwarf (the “everybody’s dead, Dave” scene is full of it), but Lister on Garbage World was pretty much all black, no comedy.

I mean, maybe not 100%, as the absurdity of being on a garbage world at all and the whole deal with Lister having to eat a bit of sofa to please some giant cockroaches counts, but those aren’t exactly the kind of jokes that get a studio audience roaring.

Not that it was to the book’s detriment, as having the setting for so many hilarious scenes melt away and threaten to crush Lister if he didn’t escape it greatly heightened the drama. But it was the drama that was working, and it worked because it was a book.

[Dax101]

I think with the show you do have to find a good balance that stops the show from just becoming depressing. Even with certain concepts Red Dwarf has which could be considered a little depressing. its always good to have a sense of levity to balance it out. And i guess in my head, or at least how i’m personally imagining it, Marooned could become a little depressing if it wasn’t a survival story with levity and more about the characters accepting whats going to happen to them if they ain’t saved.

[Rushy]

I thought it was interesting when Rob Grant said the whole stylistic change was Doug’s idea. It really makes it seem like any reinvention of the series was Doug pulling Rob along in a way, while Rob was very much a grounding force for Doug, curtailing ideas like completely changing the status quo every season. 

[Cardinal_Hordriss]

Really, the entire premise of the show should be very depressing. Lister is trapped in deep space with a man who hates him and another man who is totally selfish. The human race is extinct. The only intelligent life they encounter up to the end of S3 is an eccentric droid and the monstrous polymorph. The odds of them ever getting back to Earth are laughable and while the ship has plenty of supplies and space it’s not the most pleasant environment being a knackered old mining ship. 

With all that in mind the comedy is always going to be fairly dark which I personally think hits its peak in S5 but I think it really began in S3. While the living quarters got brighter and the science room replaced the dull colours of the drive room the rest of the ship became darker and more unfamiliar. It almost reminds me of the fairytale setting of the village, the bright living quarters, and the dark, spooky woods, other areas of the ship. Like the woods, the dark areas of the ship aren’t completely unfamiliar but in stories like polymorph, they take on a sinister aspect.

The overall depressing aspect of the setting finally hits Lister in Time Slides and is directly addressed as this inescapable black hole of despair for the first time. I think this might be the biggest change of S3 that I hadn’t really thought of until this discussion evolved, they really start facing up to how much their situation sucks in a way that had only briefly been touched on before such as in Balance of Power.

[Nick R]

It almost reminds me of the fairytale setting of the village, the bright living quarters, and the dark, spooky woods, other areas of the ship.

*Gets idea for Red Dwarf fantasy AU fanfic*

Lister and Rimmer live in a remote mining village called Red Dwarf (named after the creatures that founded the mine), which is protected by a dryad spirit called Holly. Lister secretly keeps a pregnant pet cat; unknown to him, this cat used to be a witch’s familiar. A spell gone wrong kills everyone in the village except Lister, who Holly manages to protect within a time-stopping spell.

Three hundred years later, Holly awakens Lister, who finds that the village is surrounded by an overgrown forest. His only companion is the ghost of Rimmer, whom Holly has summoned through necromancy.

The two encounter a strange creature: the magical disaster interacted strangely with the magical remnants on Lister’s pet, transforming her kittens into humanoid felines. This tribe has since abandoned the nearby forest, leaving only one Cat behind.

The stories follow Lister, Rimmer, and Cat’s adventures on expeditions into the dark forest. But why is the forest so empty? Why are there no humans to be found? And why does Cat usually buy a potion from Gandalf the master wizard?

[Technopeasant]

And a few years later they find a golem named Kryten.

[Cardinal_Hordriss]

Well they say all fictional stories fall into the same forms. 

[Technopeasant]

[Author]

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