Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum The Doctor Who Spoilers Thread – Part III

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  • #81831

    Don’t mind me. I’m just gonna sit here and stare at that picture of Paul McGann for a while.

    #81832
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    WOAH, that was good!

    #81833
    Andrew
    Participant

    I’d very much like to french kiss RTD this evening.

    #81834
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Thoughts crossposted from my blog :

    Well, that was a bit special.

    Shock ending aside (not a shock to me because of rumours I’ve heard, although I hope to god they don’t turn out to be true), while that was perhaps trying to cram a little too much in, it was basically the big massive amazing Dalek invasion story that we should have had two years ago.

    Davros was absolutely one hundred per cent fantastic, in both looks and performance. If you didn’t know better (and if he wasn’t, you know, dead), you could well believe that that was Michael Wisher under there.

    A shame the Supreme Dalek didn’t turn out to be anything other than “a different-coloured leader Dalek”, but then, that’s the way things have always worked. I’m still betting on him being the future Emperor, though.

    Dalek Caan was a brilliant piece of twistedness.

    We finally got The Redemption of Harriet Jones, and damned good it was too.

    Kudos for squeezing all those names into the opening titles! The “TO. BE. CONTINUED.” thing was a bit silly, though.

    WOW @ CGI. The first time, I think, that Who has rivalled the likes of Battlestar for an entire episode, rather than just the odd moment (such as the Gallifreyan landscape last year).

    Can we have a Doctor Who story where the Doctor actually DOES something, now, please? I don’t think we’ve had one all series. I get that he inspires people, and that’s really what this episode was all about – and not really the poorer for it – but he needs to be more proactive in the finale.

    But otherwise – WELL DONE RUSSELL, YOU’RE VERY GOOD AT THE FIRST HALF OF FINALES, PLEASE MAKE THE SECOND HALF BETTER THAN LAST YEAR’S. I just hope those rumours don’t turn out to be true. If they’re not pulling a fast one, then it will be utterly remarkable. But I don’t think they are.

    #81836
    Andrew
    Participant

    > We finally got The Redemption of Harriet Jones, and damned good it was too.

    I have my doubts about this. The way we didn’t SEE her get shot, the odd ‘don’t use the key’ outburst. There’s a part of me that thinks we’re still waiting for a twist. (I’ve skipped as many spoilers as I can.)

    Loved the Daleks’ “YES, WE KNOW WHO YOU ARE.”

    #81837
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    It’s funny, I texted Ian as soon as she appeared and did the networking thing, saying “HARRIET JONES = BEST EVER”. Then there was the thing with the key, and I sent him another one saying “Oh, hang on, something’s a bit sinister here…” Clearly for a moment I was being swayed by all the fuckwits who were saying things like “She’s the Red Dalek!” I do agree that moment was a bit strange, but… I think she got a proper “ending”, there. It was a satisfying arc that RTD presumably always planned to do at some point (or, at least, from the moment he brought her back in TCI).

    I mean, let’s bear in mind, she got her name in the US-style opening “guest star” roll. If she’s in next week’s, they’d have to do it again, and that would be kind of a giveaway! I can see your point, totally, and it’s not beyond the realms of possibility – but I think it would be a twist too far, and the only reason why we didn’t see her die, I reckon, was more out of respect.

    And yeah, saw the Dalek line coming a mile off, but it was still great.

    #81838
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >Have my doubts about this. The way we didn?t SEE her get shot, the odd ?don?t use the key? outburst. There?s a part of me that thinks we?re still waiting for a twist. (I?ve skipped as many spoilers as I can.)

    Hmm…am inclined to agree. I’m going on a sole viewing, but didn’t the Daleks do a scan for The Doctor? Maybe it was part of the plan to get Harriet and the “Children of Time” to summon him.

    I was concerned that, with all those characters, it was going to get a bit crowded. I didn’t expect that it would be the Doctor and Donna who would be marginalised though. That was a bit of a mis-step. As Seb said, The Doctor didn’t get a helluva lot to do.

    As a result of this, it was a *bit* fan-wanky. I’d imagine a fair portion of the viewing public didn’t remember who Sarah-Jane was, or who the little boy was (I had no idea) or why they had a rather dodgy computer with the voice of Alexander Armstrong. Ditto for the Torchwood two.

    I’m concerned about the 2nd part in light of the spoilers I’ve seen. But the ending, for what it was, was pretty cool.

    I’d disagree about the CGI though. Thought it was occasionally ropey.

    #81840
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >I hope they expand a bit on how he actually rescued Davros though…

    Anything Caan can do…

    #81839
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Definitely an enjoyable exciting episode. Silly with all the planet grabbing but in a good way. (I wonder why entire stars vanished in the previous episode though? Still it’s likely they haven’t quite gotten to that stage yet. We’re still to find out what the big planet machine is about after all.)

    I can’t help wondering why the tardis didn’t go with the earth when it was transported, but I imagine that’s something to do with it existing partly in another dimension. (I have an idea I’ve seen the tardis teleported before but I can’t quite place it… so I could be wrong.)

    Great to see all these whoverse cameos. Gwen firing a machine gun was a picture. ;)

    Davros was excellent. I found Dalek Caan funny, in a freaky kind of way. (Not sure if that was their intention but he still was great.) I hope they expand a bit on how he actually rescued Davros though, it just seemed a bit too far fetched. Still he’s got his own advanced time displacement device built in and I imagine that goes a long way.

    Shadow proclamation, and familiar faces! I was expecting to see a council of a variety of different aliens mind, rather than the Judoon and the albino humanoids, but considering the amount of budget on effects and other prosthetics this episode, most understandable. Oh and more foreshadowing with Donna. (How come all these individuals they bump into have powers of foresight, and the timelord himself does not? :) )

    A few holes here and there (which to be fair might be filled), and the Indigo teleportation device somehow ‘tuning into Martha’s mind and taking her where she want’s to go….’ Please RTD. You really could have come up with better than that. But that’s a very minor niggle in an otherwise great episode.

    I think I may watch it again when it repeats though. With some of the fast talking exposition I think I missed bits.

    #81841
    Ridley
    Participant

    I thought it was largely meh but the spoilers were a factor. Surprised someone saying “Oh I’m good again” is considered enough to constitute a redemption and is ample payoff for a character.

    #81842
    Andrew
    Participant

    > I?m going on a sole viewing, but didn?t the Daleks do a scan for The Doctor? Maybe it was part of the plan to get Harriet and the ?Children of Time? to summon him.

    This was where my thoughts were going, too. Davros’ plans seemed to include the arrival of the Doctor.

    Also, Harriet Jones mentioned the creators of the communication system oddly specifically. Suspect we’re going to see that picked up. (Unless it was a back-reference or in-joke and I just missed it.)

    > I?d imagine a fair portion of the viewing public didn?t remember who Sarah-Jane was, or who the little boy was (I had no idea) or why they had a rather dodgy computer with the voice of Alexander Armstrong. Ditto for the Torchwood two.

    I got a text from a friend right after the ep asking, basically, who everyone was. As a ‘seen most eps of New Who once’ viewer, pretty much the whole thing left her bewildered. We’re in Buffy climax territory now, I guess – it’s only great if you’re immersed. (Hell, even I haven’t seen more than half an ep of the SJ Adventures – didn’t know the kid OR the computer.)

    Anyone else disappointed by the Shadow Proclamation being basically a room in a modern office building?

    #81843

    Holy shit balls. Loved that ep but I won’t be happy if his hand turns into another doctor and all that shit, however…there was a shot of the hand at the stat just to remind you it’s there so they must be using it for something.

    #81844
    Somebody
    Participant

    Chris M:
    > I can?t help wondering why the tardis didn?t go with the earth when it was transported, but I imagine that?s something to do with it existing partly in another dimension. (I have an idea I?ve seen the tardis teleported before but I can?t quite place it? so I could be wrong.)

    Earlier this series, for one example. The Sontarans teleported it – with Donna inside – to their ship. I agree that that bit was VERY ropey.

    #81845
    John Hoare
    Participant

    Fucking loved it. And I had no spoilers, so I was genuinely fucking amazed.

    Also:

    “Have you got a webcam?”
    “No, she wouldn’t let me, she says they’re naughty.”

    Not only one of the best jokes all year, but also by far the best delivered. Seb’s been saying it all series, but over the past two episodes Bernard Cribbins has become one of my favourite parts of Series 4. (And also my favourite of the companion’s family members.)

    #81846
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Earlier this series, for one example. The Sontarans teleported it – with Donna inside – to their ship. I agree that that bit was VERY ropey.

    That recently eh? Its worrying that I forget stuff so quickly. (Conversely little bits and pieces will sometimes stick for ages.) Must be a sign of getting old…

    I suppose one theory would be that its a different method of transport… but that really doesn’t mesh. It would have worked better if they’d simply arrived in that area of space and found Earth gone in the first place.

    Actually another thing occurs, would the rift have been transported too? Obviously it was cos Torchwood utilized it, I just kind of visualized it as a long fracture cutting across the fabric of space time, only a small part of which intersects with Earth/Cardiff. If that’s the case I could understand that being left behind due to it’s sheer size (and likely ripped larger as a result of Earths move). Maybe my visualization was wrong and it’s more like an elastic ribbon that just stretches to wherever Earth is located. (Actually it’s probably a bit of both.)

    No doubt I’m over thinking it , and it doesn’t really bother me, I’m just curious.

    What did you think of the the revelation concerning the bees? I’m kind of undecided on that one. It’s an interesting idea (although really far out, but that’s part of the culture of the show) but the whole speed of that exposition lost me a bit. Thats a part that I’ll need to rewatch, although I knew it had something to do with the doctor following the bee aliens trail to the area of space where earth had been moved. Why they moved in the first place is the bit that skipped me by (their planet was moved there too maybe?) in the Doctor’s fast narration, but I imagine a rewatch will clear that up.

    #81847
    Somebody
    Participant

    Well, the rift kinda has to move with the planet. Otherwise, it would only be in Cardiff for a few minutes out of every year.

    #81848
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Well, the rift kinda has to move with the planet. Otherwise, it would only be in Cardiff for a few minutes out of every year.

    Heh, good point. I wasn’t taking into account the movement of heavenly bodies. (I’m sure there’s a girly gag in there somewhere but never mind…)

    Still the normal movement and suddenly being wrenched to a different part of the universe are rather different. But whatever. Elastic it is. ;)

    #81849
    Somebody
    Participant

    I think it’s locked relative to the Earth’s gravity well – it moves around the centre of the earth in geosynchronous orbit – rather than being stretched and squeezed as the Earth moves around the sun, and the whole solar system moves around the centre of the galaxy, and the galaxy moves around…

    And on a completely different note… http://www.ganymede.tv/forum/2008/05/the-doctor-who-spoilers-thread-part-ii#comment-129165

    Oh-so-nearly got it right. I got the right names in the right order, just put the “with” in the wrong place (it was Lis, not Freema who got the “with” credit – I thought they’d use it to split the recurring characters from the two regulars).

    #81850
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >?Have you got a webcam??
    >?No, she wouldn?t let me, she says they?re naughty.?

    >Not only one of the best jokes all year, but also by far the best delivered.

    Agreed. The show rarely makes me laugh, but that line did. Cribbins has been excellent.

    >Anyone else disappointed by the Shadow Proclamation being basically a room in a modern office building?

    Yeah, and a real lack of invention with regards to the personnel behind it. Albino lady and the Judoon. I was expecting a Mos Eisley type affair.

    #81851
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    If anyone was confused by Luke and Mr Smith because they haven’t seen much of The Sarah Jane Adventures – that’s your punishment for not having seen much of The Sarah Jane Adventures. Series Four didn’t hit the heights of Whatever Happened To Sarah Jane? and The Lost Boy until the Moffat two-parter.

    #81852
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Holy Shit, has anyone seen the new trailer? Bleach can do ranty Davros too, then…

    #81853
    Somebody
    Participant
    #81854
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Have decided that the only thing wrong with that cliffhanger was the ridiculously pretentious OMG!!!11 “To Be Continued” caption. Not so much the whooshy thing it did inside the vortex, just the manner in which it appeared.

    >If anyone was confused by Luke and Mr Smith because they haven?t seen much of The Sarah Jane Adventures – that?s your punishment for not having seen much of The Sarah Jane Adventures.

    Is it better than Torchwood? If it’s not, I probably wont bother.

    #81855
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    It’s better than Torchwood.

    #81856
    ChrisM
    Participant

    I caught a couple of episode of Sarah Jane, and what I saw wasn’t bad. Silly K-9 plugging a black hole with his tail bit aside.

    I just rewatched Dr. Who again, and it’s a testament to how good the episode was that I thoroughly enjoyed it second time round. Often even a good programme can be boring if you’ve watched it again having not long seen it.

    I caught more of the parts I missed too, although the bee stuff was still a bit unclear. I.e. I understand that the bees are in fact aliens, and they sensed something coming and decided to leave for their home planet. But why would tracking the bees lead to the earths new location in the region of the Medusa cascade? Unless their planet was one of the 27 taken there as well… (I guess that must be it.)

    #81857
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    So long and thanks for all the nectar.

    #81858
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    >But why would tracking the bees lead to the earths new location in the region of the Medusa cascade?

    Because it was the “trail” left by the bees that the Daleks had themselves used to whisk the Earth along. I think.

    #81861
    performingmonkey
    Participant

    The bees thing barely holds together. It doesn’t help that when Tennant’s explaining it he’s in 300mph mode. The alien bees felt something was going to happen so returned home on the *something* transmat wave, the Doctor realises the Earth went down the same wave. Something like that. But it still doesn’t make sense because that would mean the bees’ planet was there at the Medusa Cascade (hope there’s more about that too next week) but all the planets were taken at the same time. The bees that were disappearing in the months leading up to this can’t have been going to the Cascade. Oh…just FUCK IT!!!!!

    I loved everything about the Daleks and Davros. Finally we get some creepiness both from Davros (surely kids will be scared by his face) and Dalek Caan. I think Caan going insane due to breaking the rules and going back to the Time War is a pointer for something the Doctor may attempt later on. He might go back and stop Caan from saving Davros, or something…

    #81862
    ChrisM
    Participant

    I hope they expand on the latter, if not on the last episode (which lets face it has enough present events to tie up) then in a future series.

    They mentioned the time war was time-locked…. so I’m assuming that means the time lords set up some kind of way of seperating it from the events of the main universe, out of synch maybe or placed in a different dimension altogether, obviously difficult to access…. yet the dalek Caan’s temporal shifting technology was somehow able to penetrate it where Time lord technology could not… Seems far-fetched but then we’re not privy to all the facts. It also continues that old theme that people who seem to be low in importance in the scheme of things have the most important pivotal roles. We’ve seen that with the Doctor’s companions again and again, notably last episode (although there’s some contention as to how successful that was.) Seems that rule works for the other side as well.

    I also thought it interesting that the Doctor mentioned he tried to save Davros himself. I wasn’t particularly surprised. Despite all that stuff in modern Who about the Doctor needing a human companion to ‘stop him’ he has always been slow to war and had a compassionate side*, but it does make you wonder that at that point he didn’t just let him go, knowing the potential havoc Davros could cause later.

    I think the time war would be a great idea for a TV movie. It would be great if they could get McGann on board.

    *That’s not to say I’m suggesting the slightly colder Doctor from the new series is contradictory. It does perhaps show a digression in the character though by the time he reached his Ecclestone incarnation at the start of series 1 (new Who.) And then there was all the other stuff, the separation from Rose etc. He’s been through terrific pain and hardship, been forced to actions he would normally despise. It’s understandable that it would numb him somewhat.

    #81863
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    >They mentioned the time war was time-locked?. so I?m assuming that means it?s very difficult to access?

    Nah, “time-locked” was a phrase established in the Pompeii story – it means it’s a fixed point in time that can’t be *changed*…

    #81864
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Ah right. In that context, I get the impression it means, ‘can’t’ as in ‘shouldn’t’, as in, it’s possible, but might have cataclysmic affects.

    #81865
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >Seems far-fetched but then we?re not privy to all the facts.

    You’re right. This is the last straw. This show has completely lost touch with reality and I’m not watching any more.

    #81866
    performingmonkey
    Participant

    > and I?m not watching any more.

    Yeah right.

    #81867
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >Yeah right.

    Yeah, you got me. I was actually being sarcastic.

    #81872
    Zombie Jim Undead
    Participant

    Loved it.

    It did have some of the worst Davies excesses – blunderbus narrative which goes at a million miles an hour, throwing in everything but the kitchen sink, leaping from one poorly conceived plot contrivance to the next with a reset button looming on the horizon…

    But the Daleks were fantastic and Davros was absolutely stunningly perfect. Also thought Billie was much better this week.

    Seems that the plot is following the path of the spoilers…here’s hoping they were all wrong from this point on, though. Two Doctors seems a naff idea.

    Anyone else notice that at one point Donna heard the sound of drums?

    #81873
    Danny Stephenson
    Keymaster

    Anyone else notice that at one point Donna heard the sound of drums?

    Next episode, Donna gets sucked into Jumanji

    #81875
    ChrisM
    Participant

    >Anyone else notice that at one point Donna heard the sound of drums?

    I noticed the boom-boom, although it struck me more as a heart-beat. Which granted, has a certain drum quality…

    That would be quite a twist though wouldn’t it? If that was followed through…

    #81876
    Ridley
    Participant

    Next episode, Donna gets sucked into Jumanji

    “Flowtog mowtog botox blorog”

    #81877
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Anyone else notice that at one point Donna heard the sound of drums?

    Or possibly the beat of one of the Doctor’s hearts…. Anyone else noticed how he specifically got shot on one side?

    (Yes, I’m still skipping spoilers.)

    #81881
    Michael Warren
    Participant

    ^ *nods* It was a grazing shot, rather than a direct hit…

    #81882
    Stabbim the Skutter
    Participant

    Doctor: It’s gone!
    Donna: What’s gone?
    Doctor: …the Earth! It’s gone, it’s missing, it’s not there! …Hang on…sorry, I was looking out the wrong window…

    #81885
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    There’s been loads of Doctor Dwarf this year. Not that I can remember a single instance right now of course. There was definitely one in the Moffat two-parter.

    Aww I love mentioning Moffat in conjunction to Who, it just makes me go all warm and fuzzy. Now If only 10-ant would regenerate into Fernando Torres.

    Okay wild speculation time. We’re not going to get a true regeneration are we? Which the more I think about it, is a bit shit. It’s far too special an event to be toyed with so I’m hoping RTD has some kick-ass twist up his sleeve. I’d absolutely love it if somehow they’ve managed to keep quiet a new Doctor (Although after being very doubtful about DT I’ll be gutted when he does go). What I can’t see is how there will be enough screen time to introduce a new face when the final episode is going to be so choc-a-bloc with old ones.

    There’s a lot of talk on various boards about Donna hearing Drums. I’m sure that was a heartbeat. I actually thought I heard very faint drums just before Harriet Jones’ message first buzzed through so that really threw me.

    Also, have they really killed her off? We saw the Daleks fire and then it cuts to Jack at Torchwood watching the split-screen and her quarter of the turning into fuzz. Now logically doesn’t that mean they hit the technology and not her?

    #81887
    Andrew
    Participant

    > We?re not going to get a true regeneration are we?
    > I?m sure that was a heartbeat.
    > Also, have they really killed her off?

    Like you read my mind, dude.

    #81888
    Andrew
    Participant

    Oh, how’s this for fucking annoying.

    I went looking for anagrams that could be made out of ‘Mr Copper Foundation’, and you know what you get?

    Seriously, this is fucking annoying.

    You get:

    “Profound importance.”

    RTD, my head is being messed with, and I think I kind of like it.

    (Addendum: Mr Copper was also the historian character Clive Swift played in VotD. So maybe it’s all just bollocks.)

    #81890
    Al
    Participant

    It seems to me (and it did last year) that the drum sound *is* a heartbeat. If you think about it, in order to get a timelord heartbeat, overlap two slightly quick human heartbeats, and you get the same rhythm thats been used all along as the drums. “A-B A-B”, A being the first heart and B being the second one. No idea what it means, mind. Wheres tonguetied to help us all make sense of this?

    #81893
    Somebody
    Participant

    > I went looking for anagrams that could be made out of ?Mr Copper Foundation?,

    ???

    #81895
    ChrisM
    Participant

    If ‘???’ means “What is the Mr Copper Foundation? I think it was where Donna said she worked. A subsidiary of Torchwood or some-such.

    #81896
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    No, it was the company that helped Harriet Jones develop the sub-ethawave technology…

    #81897
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    And Mr Copper was the bloke in VOTD, right? Richard Bucket who got a load of money and was told to fade into the background….

    EDIT : Ah, Andrew already mentioned this.

    #81900
    Andrew
    Participant

    > No, it was the company that helped Harriet Jones develop the sub-ethawave technology?

    Indeed. Harriet Jones mentioned it with an odd level of specificity. I thought it might be plot-relevant. Now I’m thinking it’s just a back-reference, and maybe a lead in to some next season stuff.

    #81901
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Thoughts on Martha’s key, anyone?

    I forget its actual name, but it’s bound to be anagram friendly. Personally, I think it’s the reset button with the ability to wipe the memories of ever human being so they can’t remember any of the events when the Doctor eventually saves the day.

    #81906
    Andrew
    Participant

    > it?s bound to be anagram friendly

    Osterhagen could = “Earth’s Gone”:

    http://www.denofgeek.com/television/77938/doctor_who_what_is_the_osterhagen_key.html

    #81909
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    Yeah I thought the Mr Copper reference was just a throw away, although that’s quite a decent anagram to throw-up.

    I thought I had a good one when I found that ‘Osterhagen’ re-arranged to be “Earth’s Gone” until I read a much better theory involving the word ‘reset’. Which of course work’s much better because RTD can reset the finale out of Earth’s history, although didn’t he do that last year?

    All that said, when I catch myself using an anagram machine on the internet my self-worth drops through the floor :(

    #81911
    Andrew
    Participant

    > I found that ?Osterhagen? re-arranged to be ?Earth?s Gone? until I read a much better theory involving the word ?reset?

    Osterhagen Key = Hokey reset nag?

    #81968
    Andrew
    Participant

    > >But why would tracking the bees lead to the earths new location in the region of the Medusa cascade?

    > Because it was the ?trail? left by the bees that the Daleks had themselves used to whisk the Earth along. I think.

    I think this is still wrong. Two watchings and I still had to go to the published subtitles to figure it all out!

    http://sandwich.ukcod.org.uk/~matthew/subtitles/?q=series:4+ep:12#I446

    They blasted through it so quickly…and kinda skipped a beat:

    “If the migrant bees felt something coming, some danger, and escaped…The Tandocca Scale!…It’s wavelengths used as a carrier signal. Infinitely small…The transmat that moved the planets used the same wavelength, we can follow it!”

    The suggestion, as far as I can tell, is that the bees knew trouble was coming because they use/read/pick-up anything on the Tandocca Scale. So they buggered off, but now the Doctor knows what scared them away – a transmat using that scale. And, knowing the signal being used, he can follow its wavelength.

    So – ain’t nobody following the bees.

    #81971
    Zombie Jim Undead
    Participant

    That’s not even real words! You’re just saying things!

    Seriously, though…that scene showed a major disregard for the audience. Tennant speaks so quickly it’s an utter nonsense…and even reading the script it’s pretty nonsensical.

    #81972
    Andrew
    Participant

    I really don’t blame Tennant. Exposition’s a tough needle to thread and the actor kinda has to trust the writer (and director).

    But it’s such a DUMB problem to have. All it needs is a line like this:

    “The Tandocca Scale! The bees use the signal, it’s how they navigate as a swarm. But they picked up a great big, planet-moving version – no wonder they scarpered. The transmat that moved the planets used the same wavelength. Oh-ho! And now we know what we’re looking for – we can follow it!?

    They went from ‘bees’ to ‘signal-following’ and skipped the connection, which is vaguely implied rather than stated. Mistake. Even played at regular speed it doesn’t do the job.

    #81975
    Zombie Jim Undead
    Participant

    > ?The Tandocca Scale! The bees use the signal, it?s how they navigate as a swarm. But they picked up a great big, planet-moving version – no wonder they scarpered. The transmat that moved the planets used the same wavelength. Oh-ho! And now we know what we?re looking for – we can follow it!?

    Perfect!

    #81979
    ChrisM
    Participant

    That makes a lot of sense. I heard the Tandocca scale in reference to the bees, and the ‘infinitely small’ and just associated it with the bees (being small) …. which confused the whole thing.

    I had this horrible idea they were resolving the plot with a major unlikely coincidence, but the proper explanation resolves that somewhat. Course, it’s handy the bees happened to be aliens who knew that signal…

    Never mind. I’m enjoying it!

    #81982
    Andrew
    Participant

    > You just know that RTD was very pleased with himself when he came up with those lines. Especially ?it?s how they navigate as a swarm.? Brilliant!

    Huh?

    #81986
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Heh, heh.

    #81981
    performingmonkey
    Participant

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2RmFTFyz8o8

    I usually hate videos like this, but that’s because My Heart Will Go On or something like it tends to be used as the music. However, when you get something GOOD on there and it’s actually edited to fit the lyrics…pure genius!

    This is also pretty good, but only if you like Rose/Billie, or at least how she USED to look…

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=A_-FWE-C7cU

    #82008
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > So, ain?t nobody following the bees.

    In my head I heard that as spoken by Mr. T. Obviously with the word ‘fool’ at the end. Infact Mr. T to be the 11th Doctor.

    #82011
    Andrew
    Participant

    > > You just know that RTD was very pleased with himself when he came up with those lines. Especially ?it?s how they navigate as a swarm.? Brilliant!

    > Huh?

    Hmm, PM’s original post has vanished. Thus I shall remain confused forever…

    #82055
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Can’t believe it took so long to think of this :

    #82056
    Andrew
    Participant

    Ha ha!

    #82058
    performingmonkey
    Participant

    Watching Call Girl the other day (ITV1 repeat) and she definitely had the same huge teeth as she has now. It must be stuff she’s had done to her lip. Botox injections? They can make people sound like when they’ve just come back from the dentist and can’t speak properly due to the numbness.

    #82059
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Ooh, you cheeky monkey.

    #82061
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    I think we’ve experienced this period of time before.

    #82064
    Andrew
    Participant

    And that one.

    #82066
    Somebody
    Participant

    So, what is it?

    #82068
    Paul Muller
    Participant

    Aha! First post of the evening! And I have very little to say.

    It was ok – really quite slushy and sentimental and a complete RTD over the top muddle, but I quite enjoyed it.

    EXCEPT FOR THE FUCKING 3D TEXT AT THE VERY END.

    Your views.

    #82069

    I’m still recovering.

    They crammed a hell of a lot in there didn’t they.

    #82070
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Never have so many ABSOLUTELY FUCKING SHIT IDEAS made such an ABSOLUTELY FUCKING PERFECT EPISODE.

    #82071
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Never have so many ABSOLUTELY FUCKING SHIT IDEAS made such an ABSOLUTELY FUCKING PERFECT EPISODE.

    I’m facing a similar conflict.

    With the overall two-parter (yes two, blah blah), I felt a great villain was being sorely underused. I felt it stumbled on its predictions (which companion died in the end? Rose, because she went to a parallel universe like the last time she ‘died’? Doctor B, because he WILL die someday? Donna, because she lost he memories?). I felt irritated that Martha, by far the least interesting companion, is the one who gets to keep bouncing back. And I really don’t care for the strictly romantic interpretation of Rose and the Doctor’s love, so a once-great relationship was somehow…reduced.

    Yet for the whole thing I was edge-of-my-seat, heart-in-my-mouth, heart-on-my-sleeve thrilled. Entertained and impressed, and overall keener on this climax than series three’s. Plus – more excellence from Cribbins. So I’m feeling fine.

    How does RTD do it?!

    #82072
    ChrisM
    Participant

    The bit where they were towing back the earth was so very corny….

    … so why did I enjoy it? Pretty rubbishy mechanism for such an advanced craft having a bunch of guys tugging stuff in and out… but it was amusing.

    Yep, I liked this episode as a whole a lot.

    Donna said she got the best bit of the Doctor, his mind. But the hybrid doctor still had all the memories of the original though didn’t he? I.e. he came up with that strange gun thing which homes in on Davros’s DNA and does some magical thing in wiping out the Daleks back through time in a way that didn’t make much sense….

    … but they didn’t use it as the resolution, so fair enough.

    I’m assuming they meant it was more a copying of minds rather than: you get this bit, I get that bit…

    … or something.

    Handy having all those dalek magnetising bits and pieces in the vault, i.e. the prison of the ship. Just waiting for Donna to utilize… and that thing hybrid doctor did kind of lost me (another bit I’ll need to watch again.)…

    … yet it still worked somehow.

    Great finale.

    Did you see who is back for the Christmas episode? I wonder if this’ll be the originals or the parallel universe versions?

    #82073
    Andrew
    Participant

    Worth also noting that right now, in some other dimension, Rose is shagging the Doctor to the point where he shouts “Cor blimey, this is a turn up!” in Donna-ish tones…

    > I wonder if this?ll be the originals or the parallel universe versions?

    It’s the same old design, complete with Cybus logo. So I’m going with ‘escaped from Rose’s universe’.

    Hmm, a quick Google reveals a site I’d not seen before in this condition:

    http://www.cybusindustries.net

    #82074
    Stabbim the Skutter
    Participant

    Lovely stuff. :D My only complaint is that there wasn’t enough naked Tennant. I mean, considering how much Eccleston bared this was a disappointment. Still funny though.

    #82075
    Somebody
    Participant

    That’s from 2005-6 – like all the official sites, it’s been in stasis since then (unit.org.uk hasn’t been updated for this series at all, even to say “Unified Intelligence Taskforce”)

    #82076
    ChrisM
    Participant

    > Never have so many ABSOLUTELY FUCKING SHIT IDEAS made such an ABSOLUTELY FUCKING >PERFECT EPISODE.

    The thought occurs, this episode was a Triple Fried Egg Chili Chutney Sandwich. ;)
    (I make those sometimes. Actually with mango chutney and west indian extra hot pepper sauce, and it really is good.)

    #82077
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    We did them with mango chutney and sweet chilli sauce, and they were perfection in sandwich form.

    #82078
    ChrisM
    Participant

    I think I’ve tried the sweet chilli with it too. (Thai sweet chilli I think it was.) Very nice. (I tend not to buy the sauces in the house, and grab whats in stock. The extra hot is good but a little goes a long way.)

    #82079
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    > Never have so many ABSOLUTELY FUCKING SHIT IDEAS made such an ABSOLUTELY FUCKING >PERFECT EPISODE.

    This is so IT. I stupidly read a few spoilers and hated the sound of them…but in the episode they actually worked. This is SOOO much better than last year’s conclusion. I’m wondering if I’d find the appearance of a second Doctor so stupid if it hadn’t been previously revealed. Moral of the story is that I’m never reading spoilers again.

    The resolution to last week’s cliffhanger was awful, the stuff with the Daleks was OK…and I was heading for a pretty medicore resolution.

    But the last fifteen minutes were fantastic and elevated this episode so much. I’m slightly pissed as I write this (and watching Confidential, incidentally) but I don’t think alcohol is to blame for my enthusiasm.

    I loved that the Doctor had to put up with his flawed photocopy wandering off with Rose, I loved that Donna reverted to her gobby persona, and I loved this bit more than anything:

    Doctor: And for one moment. One shining moment, she was the most important women in the whole wide universe.

    Donna’s Mum : She still is. She’s my daughter.

    And Cribbins. Get that man in the TARDIS. STAT!

    #82080
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Another thing, Daleks speaking German made me smile. Particularly in light of the non-spoiler thread. (And it really suited their voices didn’t it?)

    The big German lady seemed to be almost like someone out of ‘Ello, ‘ello. In a good way. Not that they had any female germans who looked like her, just the complete farcical exaggeration of the accent. (I’ll probably find out she’s actually a German actress now and have to eat my helmet.)

    #82081
    performingmonkey
    Participant

    The whole crazy Martha’s adventures in Germany-but-it’s-not-it’s-a-Welsh-castle-and-some-trees was thankfully saved by the reveal of what the Oskethingy Key (fuck off) was, basically Earth’s self-destruct key. Sadly I don’t think the ‘strategically placed nuclear warheads’ would destroy Earth in real life, but that’s by the by…

    Loads of material should have been cut out. Gwen and Ianto, for instance. They do nothing apart from NOT get exterminated by the Dalek due to a time freeze thing Tosh was working on before she DIED (how, incindentally, can Freema and Noel Clarke replace the greatness of Naoko Mori and Burn Gorman? Good luck to them).

    All the way through I wanted Rose to just not be there. It turns out all the stuff her Torchwood and our UNIT was working on was just for her selfish reason of wanting to get back to the Doctor! Her character (and acting) was pretty crap in this episode. The kiss at the end wasn’t good either. Billie on Confidential said she didn’t like the idea that she was kissing the ‘wrong’ Doctor. That’s NOT how that moment should have felt. It should have seemed like it didn’t matter which Doctor he was. Ah I don’t know… too much focus on Rose and not enough on the BRILLIANT Davros.

    Special mention should go to Catherine Tate. She blew everyone else away (apart from Bernard Cribbins in that heartbreaking scene at the end, some proper acting there, gave the episode that extra lift that was needed). Hands up who started to well up as she was pleading with the Doctor in the Tardis at the end. Suddenly things go beyond what you’re expecting from Who.

    The only thing…I wish this was the end of Tennant. Journey’s End should have been a real end of an era. It’s too similar to the last two finales where he’s been left lonely and miserable on his own. Rather than it being like ‘oh, here we are again’ we should have had a new Doctor looking forward positively. He should have regenerated in a ‘what? WHAT?’ moment right at the end, into…Craig Charles!

    #82082
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    It was utter nonsense.

    Utterly wonderful nonsense.

    #82084

    > He should have regenerated in a ?what? WHAT??

    Thats a good point…where was the “What?” moment…..I demand a “what?”

    #82085
    performingmonkey
    Participant

    The other good one would have been Jenny appearing in the Tardis. It was quite sad to see the Doctor think of her as dead in the flashback. After all the doom and gloom it would have been a great ending IMO. But seeing as she was only saved in retrospect by Moffat it wouldn’t have fit into RTD’s plan for the Christmas special.

    #82099
    Zombie Jim Undead
    Participant

    Afraid I thought it was a massive pile of plops…with a few gleaming nuggets.

    The bad:

    Davies has once again proved that he can’t cash the cheques that his brain writes. Why destroy two “fix everything” plot maguffins, only to turn Donna into a walking talking one?

    The Doctor Donna was possibly the most annoying thing ever created.

    Why did Rose have to go back to her own universe? Surely it’d be better for the potentially dangerous human / timelord doctor to remain in ours, so that the real doctor can sort him out in case he goes mental? Plus, I thought the dimension hopping was tearing the universe apart and should be avoided at all costs?

    Freema Agyeman – awful.

    Mickey and Jackie – shoe-horned into it, appearing out of nowhere brandishing guns.

    Not enough Davros!

    Destroying the entire Dalek fleet AGAIN. We all know they’re coming back, so why create the need to re-invent them yet again?

    Donna isn’t still half timelady, is she? So why would just the memories of her time with the Doctor kill her?

    The Doctor’s depression at being alone again has been played up so many times…just wanted him to cheer the hell up.

    The good:

    Bernard Cribbins. Utterly superb.

    German Daleks!

    Davros was perfect.

    #82101
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >Why destroy two ?fix everything? plot maguffins

    You’ve answered this question already. They were macguffins. And technically there were three : the Osterhagen key, the warp star (admittedly lame…I assume this first came about in The SJ Adventures) and the weapon that the 2nd(?!) Doctor created.

    Personally, I loved that the 2nd Doctor arrived in the nick of time to save the day with is hastily constructed gizmo…only to be shot and the gizmo destroyed.

    >only to turn Donna into a walking talking one

    Disagree. This isn’t a macguffin.

    >The Doctor Donna was possibly the most annoying thing ever created.

    Every fibre of my being told me I was going to hate this. And I wanted to simply because Tate and her abomination of a shitty TV programme, but I couldn’t. It was the right side of cheese. It’s been hinted at and there have been clues galore. Fair play, I say.

    >Why did Rose have to go back to her own universe?

    Because the endless Billie love has to end sooner or later. Her appearances over-shadowed this season and her performances weren’t enough to justify the hype. Having her on our Earth would mean that people would scream “Why doesn’t he go and see Rose!!11” every other episode.

    >Freema Agyeman – awful.

    Yeah. The girl can’t act. Cuter than Billie and Tate though.

    >Mickey and Jackie – shoe-horned into it, appearing out of nowhere brandishing guns.

    A nasty mainstay of RTD finales. CJ popping up to blast a Dalek last week was bad, Pete Tyler jumping in to save Rose was worse, Mickey and Jackie appearing was the absolute nadir. It didn’t help that it was accompanied by the Torchwood sequence which was similarly awful.

    >Destroying the entire Dalek fleet AGAIN. We all know they?re coming back, so why create the need to re-invent them yet again?

    Agreed. Spending five minutes of every Dalek story explaining the “get-out-clause” is getting rather old.

    >Donna isn?t still half timelady, is she? So why would just the memories of her time with the Doctor kill her?

    Because it would…I dunno…Pandora’s box. Just go with it!

    >The Doctor?s depression at being alone again has been played up so many times?just wanted him to cheer the hell up.

    I don’t think it’s been done before quite as well as they did it here. Cribbins and Sladen both drummed the point home at different stages of the finale. The fact that the Doctor has to watch HIMSELF wander off with Rose was incredibly effective. And for once it wasn’t overshadowed by a “What??…what??…what???” moment.

    #82104
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > Because the endless Billie love has to end sooner or later. Her appearances over-shadowed this season and her performances weren?t enough to justify the hype.

    > Having her on our Earth would mean that people would scream ?Why doesn?t he go and see Rose!!11? every other episode.

    This is true. Although I don’t it was her performance that made it unjustified. After the huge deal about getting back to the Doctor, she didn’t seem to have anything to do once she’d found him.

    I’ve been wondering about the specials and thinking a lot about The forthcoming Moffat-era. Previously I’ve thought and wanted Ten to stay on, but last night I started to consider that a complete clean-break with RTD-era would be better. New EVERYTHING. Doctor, Companion, Tardis Set, Theme tune… maybe even a new Logo.

    I’m also curious as to how the specials are going to work. A short series of individual stories or an epic story spread across several parts. Has anyone heard anything? Also companion-wise having only a series of guest stars seems a bit wrong.

    I hope we see a bit more of Jack, the ‘Who’ version seems infinitely more watchable than as Torchwood’s leading man.

    #82106
    Andrew
    Participant

    > After the huge deal about getting back to the Doctor, she didn?t seem to have anything to do once she?d found him.

    I think it’s a huge error in judgement to have her come back only to spend a tiny amount of time actually WITH the Doctor. She spent more time talking to Donna (which was one of the reasons I didn’t care much for Turn Left), so while the actress is around, you never felt ‘Hey, Rose is really back’.

    It’s interesting that Davros had the same problem – big promises of a return, and then not nearly enough time spent on the verbal sparring between hero and villain…which is the REAL special effect.

    #82108
    Zombie Jim Undead
    Participant

    > I?m also curious as to how the specials are going to work. A short series of individual stories or an epic story spread across several parts. Has anyone heard anything? Also companion-wise having only a series of guest stars seems a bit wrong.

    Rumours are that they will be as follows:

    Easter – one-off special featuring the Sea Devils

    Christmas Day, Boxing Day and New Year’s Day – 3-part special featuring the return of the master.

    #82109
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Semi-relevant in light of the finale:

    http://www.empireonline.com/empireblog/Post.asp?id=187

    #82113
    John Hoare
    Participant

    “But she was better with you.”

    The more I think about it, the more the resolution of Donna’s arc feels the most successful – and genuinely moving – part of the episode. (Apart from Captain Jack’s foursome joke.) More affecting than the Rose/Doctor split in Doomsday

    #82115
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    That article makes lots of good points, but I don’t think it applies to the Who finale. It’s almost the end of the RTD era, and so for me he’s totally justified in bringing back all his creations.

    For the most part they were also very well used in the Series Four finale. Faces from all series and both spin-offs were an obvious way to hype up the scale of the threat. It wasn’t all perfect (see other thread), but it did tie-up or refresh every characters arc. Rose out of the picture, Donna reset, Martha and Mickey presumably to Torchwood.

    #82116
    Zombie Jim Undead
    Participant

    > Mickey presumably to Torchwood.

    It’s amazing…I honestly didn’t think that there could possibly be any more reasons for me not to watch it… and then BAM! They pull this out of the bag!

    #82117
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    Hold on. Why is it that Rose has to go back to the parallel world, yet Mickey is able to stay in our one? I know her family are over there now, but Jackie had come back through. So thinking about all the damage to time n’ space stuff wouldn’t it just have been easier for the Doctor to go and get ‘alternative’ Pete and bring him back to our Earth?

    #82118
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >That article makes lots of good points, but I don?t think it applies to the Who finale. It?s almost the end of the RTD era, and so for me he?s totally justified in bringing back all his creations.

    As justified as any writer bringing back his creations for a sequel. You just need to make sure they’ve got something substantial to do. A lot of them were, unfortunately, there for the sake of being there.

    >Hold on. Why is it that Rose has to go back to the parallel world, yet Mickey is able to stay in our one?

    There’s probably not a decent in-show reason for this. The real reason is “So we never have to see them again”.

    This human doctor idea is underdeveloped though and deserving a bit more attention. He seemed remarkably fine with settling down with Rose while his counterpart get to swan off in the TARDIS. Are you telling me, he’s not going to miss that after 900 years of memories?

    #82119
    Zombie Jim Undead
    Participant

    The way he was largely mute and was being told where to go…

    He ended up seeming like Rose’s inflatable Doctor sex toy.

    And if timelord / human hybrids created in these circumstances cannot exist for long (i.e. Donna), how come he can?

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