The Doctor Who Spoilers Thread – Part III

[John Hoare]

This thread continues this discussion. Careful, now.

Topic

[Pete Part Three]

WOAH, that was good!

[Andrew]

I’d very much like to french kiss RTD this evening.

[Seb Patrick]

Thoughts crossposted from my blog :

Well, that was a bit special.

Shock ending aside (not a shock to me because of rumours I’ve heard, although I hope to god they don’t turn out to be true), while that was perhaps trying to cram a little too much in, it was basically the big massive amazing Dalek invasion story that we should have had two years ago.

Davros was absolutely one hundred per cent fantastic, in both looks and performance. If you didn’t know better (and if he wasn’t, you know, dead), you could well believe that that was Michael Wisher under there.

A shame the Supreme Dalek didn’t turn out to be anything other than “a different-coloured leader Dalek”, but then, that’s the way things have always worked. I’m still betting on him being the future Emperor, though.

Dalek Caan was a brilliant piece of twistedness.

We finally got The Redemption of Harriet Jones, and damned good it was too.

Kudos for squeezing all those names into the opening titles! The “TO. BE. CONTINUED.” thing was a bit silly, though.

WOW @ CGI. The first time, I think, that Who has rivalled the likes of Battlestar for an entire episode, rather than just the odd moment (such as the Gallifreyan landscape last year).

Can we have a Doctor Who story where the Doctor actually DOES something, now, please? I don’t think we’ve had one all series. I get that he inspires people, and that’s really what this episode was all about – and not really the poorer for it – but he needs to be more proactive in the finale.

But otherwise – WELL DONE RUSSELL, YOU’RE VERY GOOD AT THE FIRST HALF OF FINALES, PLEASE MAKE THE SECOND HALF BETTER THAN LAST YEAR’S. I just hope those rumours don’t turn out to be true. If they’re not pulling a fast one, then it will be utterly remarkable. But I don’t think they are.

[Andrew]

> We finally got The Redemption of Harriet Jones, and damned good it was too.

I have my doubts about this. The way we didn’t SEE her get shot, the odd ‘don’t use the key’ outburst. There’s a part of me that thinks we’re still waiting for a twist. (I’ve skipped as many spoilers as I can.)

Loved the Daleks’ “YES, WE KNOW WHO YOU ARE.”

[Seb Patrick]

It’s funny, I texted Ian as soon as she appeared and did the networking thing, saying “HARRIET JONES = BEST EVER”. Then there was the thing with the key, and I sent him another one saying “Oh, hang on, something’s a bit sinister here…” Clearly for a moment I was being swayed by all the fuckwits who were saying things like “She’s the Red Dalek!” I do agree that moment was a bit strange, but… I think she got a proper “ending”, there. It was a satisfying arc that RTD presumably always planned to do at some point (or, at least, from the moment he brought her back in TCI).

I mean, let’s bear in mind, she got her name in the US-style opening “guest star” roll. If she’s in next week’s, they’d have to do it again, and that would be kind of a giveaway! I can see your point, totally, and it’s not beyond the realms of possibility – but I think it would be a twist too far, and the only reason why we didn’t see her die, I reckon, was more out of respect.

And yeah, saw the Dalek line coming a mile off, but it was still great.

[Pete Part Three]

>Have my doubts about this. The way we didn?t SEE her get shot, the odd ?don?t use the key? outburst. There?s a part of me that thinks we?re still waiting for a twist. (I?ve skipped as many spoilers as I can.)

Hmm…am inclined to agree. I’m going on a sole viewing, but didn’t the Daleks do a scan for The Doctor? Maybe it was part of the plan to get Harriet and the “Children of Time” to summon him.

I was concerned that, with all those characters, it was going to get a bit crowded. I didn’t expect that it would be the Doctor and Donna who would be marginalised though. That was a bit of a mis-step. As Seb said, The Doctor didn’t get a helluva lot to do.

As a result of this, it was a *bit* fan-wanky. I’d imagine a fair portion of the viewing public didn’t remember who Sarah-Jane was, or who the little boy was (I had no idea) or why they had a rather dodgy computer with the voice of Alexander Armstrong. Ditto for the Torchwood two.

I’m concerned about the 2nd part in light of the spoilers I’ve seen. But the ending, for what it was, was pretty cool.

I’d disagree about the CGI though. Thought it was occasionally ropey.

[Pete Part Three]

>I hope they expand a bit on how he actually rescued Davros though…

Anything Caan can do…

[ChrisM]

Definitely an enjoyable exciting episode. Silly with all the planet grabbing but in a good way. (I wonder why entire stars vanished in the previous episode though? Still it’s likely they haven’t quite gotten to that stage yet. We’re still to find out what the big planet machine is about after all.)

I can’t help wondering why the tardis didn’t go with the earth when it was transported, but I imagine that’s something to do with it existing partly in another dimension. (I have an idea I’ve seen the tardis teleported before but I can’t quite place it… so I could be wrong.)

Great to see all these whoverse cameos. Gwen firing a machine gun was a picture. ;)

Davros was excellent. I found Dalek Caan funny, in a freaky kind of way. (Not sure if that was their intention but he still was great.) I hope they expand a bit on how he actually rescued Davros though, it just seemed a bit too far fetched. Still he’s got his own advanced time displacement device built in and I imagine that goes a long way.

Shadow proclamation, and familiar faces! I was expecting to see a council of a variety of different aliens mind, rather than the Judoon and the albino humanoids, but considering the amount of budget on effects and other prosthetics this episode, most understandable. Oh and more foreshadowing with Donna. (How come all these individuals they bump into have powers of foresight, and the timelord himself does not? :) )

A few holes here and there (which to be fair might be filled), and the Indigo teleportation device somehow ‘tuning into Martha’s mind and taking her where she want’s to go….’ Please RTD. You really could have come up with better than that. But that’s a very minor niggle in an otherwise great episode.

I think I may watch it again when it repeats though. With some of the fast talking exposition I think I missed bits.

[Ridley]

I thought it was largely meh but the spoilers were a factor. Surprised someone saying “Oh I’m good again” is considered enough to constitute a redemption and is ample payoff for a character.

[Andrew]

> I?m going on a sole viewing, but didn?t the Daleks do a scan for The Doctor? Maybe it was part of the plan to get Harriet and the ?Children of Time? to summon him.

This was where my thoughts were going, too. Davros’ plans seemed to include the arrival of the Doctor.

Also, Harriet Jones mentioned the creators of the communication system oddly specifically. Suspect we’re going to see that picked up. (Unless it was a back-reference or in-joke and I just missed it.)

> I?d imagine a fair portion of the viewing public didn?t remember who Sarah-Jane was, or who the little boy was (I had no idea) or why they had a rather dodgy computer with the voice of Alexander Armstrong. Ditto for the Torchwood two.

I got a text from a friend right after the ep asking, basically, who everyone was. As a ‘seen most eps of New Who once’ viewer, pretty much the whole thing left her bewildered. We’re in Buffy climax territory now, I guess – it’s only great if you’re immersed. (Hell, even I haven’t seen more than half an ep of the SJ Adventures – didn’t know the kid OR the computer.)

Anyone else disappointed by the Shadow Proclamation being basically a room in a modern office building?

[Smeg4Brains]

Holy shit balls. Loved that ep but I won’t be happy if his hand turns into another doctor and all that shit, however…there was a shot of the hand at the stat just to remind you it’s there so they must be using it for something.

[Somebody]

Chris M:
> I can?t help wondering why the tardis didn?t go with the earth when it was transported, but I imagine that?s something to do with it existing partly in another dimension. (I have an idea I?ve seen the tardis teleported before but I can?t quite place it? so I could be wrong.)

Earlier this series, for one example. The Sontarans teleported it – with Donna inside – to their ship. I agree that that bit was VERY ropey.

[John Hoare]

Fucking loved it. And I had no spoilers, so I was genuinely fucking amazed.

Also:

“Have you got a webcam?”
“No, she wouldn’t let me, she says they’re naughty.”

Not only one of the best jokes all year, but also by far the best delivered. Seb’s been saying it all series, but over the past two episodes Bernard Cribbins has become one of my favourite parts of Series 4. (And also my favourite of the companion’s family members.)

[ChrisM]

Earlier this series, for one example. The Sontarans teleported it – with Donna inside – to their ship. I agree that that bit was VERY ropey.

That recently eh? Its worrying that I forget stuff so quickly. (Conversely little bits and pieces will sometimes stick for ages.) Must be a sign of getting old…

I suppose one theory would be that its a different method of transport… but that really doesn’t mesh. It would have worked better if they’d simply arrived in that area of space and found Earth gone in the first place.

Actually another thing occurs, would the rift have been transported too? Obviously it was cos Torchwood utilized it, I just kind of visualized it as a long fracture cutting across the fabric of space time, only a small part of which intersects with Earth/Cardiff. If that’s the case I could understand that being left behind due to it’s sheer size (and likely ripped larger as a result of Earths move). Maybe my visualization was wrong and it’s more like an elastic ribbon that just stretches to wherever Earth is located. (Actually it’s probably a bit of both.)

No doubt I’m over thinking it , and it doesn’t really bother me, I’m just curious.

What did you think of the the revelation concerning the bees? I’m kind of undecided on that one. It’s an interesting idea (although really far out, but that’s part of the culture of the show) but the whole speed of that exposition lost me a bit. Thats a part that I’ll need to rewatch, although I knew it had something to do with the doctor following the bee aliens trail to the area of space where earth had been moved. Why they moved in the first place is the bit that skipped me by (their planet was moved there too maybe?) in the Doctor’s fast narration, but I imagine a rewatch will clear that up.

[Somebody]

Well, the rift kinda has to move with the planet. Otherwise, it would only be in Cardiff for a few minutes out of every year.

[ChrisM]

Well, the rift kinda has to move with the planet. Otherwise, it would only be in Cardiff for a few minutes out of every year.

Heh, good point. I wasn’t taking into account the movement of heavenly bodies. (I’m sure there’s a girly gag in there somewhere but never mind…)

Still the normal movement and suddenly being wrenched to a different part of the universe are rather different. But whatever. Elastic it is. ;)

[Somebody]

I think it’s locked relative to the Earth’s gravity well – it moves around the centre of the earth in geosynchronous orbit – rather than being stretched and squeezed as the Earth moves around the sun, and the whole solar system moves around the centre of the galaxy, and the galaxy moves around…

And on a completely different note… http://www.ganymede.tv/forum/2008/05/the-doctor-who-spoilers-thread-part-ii#comment-129165

Oh-so-nearly got it right. I got the right names in the right order, just put the “with” in the wrong place (it was Lis, not Freema who got the “with” credit – I thought they’d use it to split the recurring characters from the two regulars).

[Pete Part Three]

>?Have you got a webcam??
>?No, she wouldn?t let me, she says they?re naughty.?

>Not only one of the best jokes all year, but also by far the best delivered.

Agreed. The show rarely makes me laugh, but that line did. Cribbins has been excellent.

>Anyone else disappointed by the Shadow Proclamation being basically a room in a modern office building?

Yeah, and a real lack of invention with regards to the personnel behind it. Albino lady and the Judoon. I was expecting a Mos Eisley type affair.

[Ian Symes]

If anyone was confused by Luke and Mr Smith because they haven’t seen much of The Sarah Jane Adventures – that’s your punishment for not having seen much of The Sarah Jane Adventures. Series Four didn’t hit the heights of Whatever Happened To Sarah Jane? and The Lost Boy until the Moffat two-parter.

[Jonathan Capps]

Holy Shit, has anyone seen the new trailer? Bleach can do ranty Davros too, then…

[Somebody]

Trailer here (UK only): http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/s4/episodes/?episode=S4_12&action=videostream&playlist=/doctorwho/playlists/s4_12/video/s4_12_trl_05.xml

[Pete Part Three]

Have decided that the only thing wrong with that cliffhanger was the ridiculously pretentious OMG!!!11 “To Be Continued” caption. Not so much the whooshy thing it did inside the vortex, just the manner in which it appeared.

>If anyone was confused by Luke and Mr Smith because they haven?t seen much of The Sarah Jane Adventures – that?s your punishment for not having seen much of The Sarah Jane Adventures.

Is it better than Torchwood? If it’s not, I probably wont bother.

[Ian Symes]

It’s better than Torchwood.

[ChrisM]

I caught a couple of episode of Sarah Jane, and what I saw wasn’t bad. Silly K-9 plugging a black hole with his tail bit aside.

I just rewatched Dr. Who again, and it’s a testament to how good the episode was that I thoroughly enjoyed it second time round. Often even a good programme can be boring if you’ve watched it again having not long seen it.

I caught more of the parts I missed too, although the bee stuff was still a bit unclear. I.e. I understand that the bees are in fact aliens, and they sensed something coming and decided to leave for their home planet. But why would tracking the bees lead to the earths new location in the region of the Medusa cascade? Unless their planet was one of the 27 taken there as well… (I guess that must be it.)

[Ian Symes]

So long and thanks for all the nectar.

[Seb Patrick]

>But why would tracking the bees lead to the earths new location in the region of the Medusa cascade?

Because it was the “trail” left by the bees that the Daleks had themselves used to whisk the Earth along. I think.

[pfm]

The bees thing barely holds together. It doesn’t help that when Tennant’s explaining it he’s in 300mph mode. The alien bees felt something was going to happen so returned home on the *something* transmat wave, the Doctor realises the Earth went down the same wave. Something like that. But it still doesn’t make sense because that would mean the bees’ planet was there at the Medusa Cascade (hope there’s more about that too next week) but all the planets were taken at the same time. The bees that were disappearing in the months leading up to this can’t have been going to the Cascade. Oh…just FUCK IT!!!!!

I loved everything about the Daleks and Davros. Finally we get some creepiness both from Davros (surely kids will be scared by his face) and Dalek Caan. I think Caan going insane due to breaking the rules and going back to the Time War is a pointer for something the Doctor may attempt later on. He might go back and stop Caan from saving Davros, or something…

[ChrisM]

I hope they expand on the latter, if not on the last episode (which lets face it has enough present events to tie up) then in a future series.

They mentioned the time war was time-locked…. so I’m assuming that means the time lords set up some kind of way of seperating it from the events of the main universe, out of synch maybe or placed in a different dimension altogether, obviously difficult to access…. yet the dalek Caan’s temporal shifting technology was somehow able to penetrate it where Time lord technology could not… Seems far-fetched but then we’re not privy to all the facts. It also continues that old theme that people who seem to be low in importance in the scheme of things have the most important pivotal roles. We’ve seen that with the Doctor’s companions again and again, notably last episode (although there’s some contention as to how successful that was.) Seems that rule works for the other side as well.

I also thought it interesting that the Doctor mentioned he tried to save Davros himself. I wasn’t particularly surprised. Despite all that stuff in modern Who about the Doctor needing a human companion to ‘stop him’ he has always been slow to war and had a compassionate side*, but it does make you wonder that at that point he didn’t just let him go, knowing the potential havoc Davros could cause later.

I think the time war would be a great idea for a TV movie. It would be great if they could get McGann on board.

*That’s not to say I’m suggesting the slightly colder Doctor from the new series is contradictory. It does perhaps show a digression in the character though by the time he reached his Ecclestone incarnation at the start of series 1 (new Who.) And then there was all the other stuff, the separation from Rose etc. He’s been through terrific pain and hardship, been forced to actions he would normally despise. It’s understandable that it would numb him somewhat.

[Seb Patrick]

>They mentioned the time war was time-locked?. so I?m assuming that means it?s very difficult to access?

Nah, “time-locked” was a phrase established in the Pompeii story – it means it’s a fixed point in time that can’t be *changed*…

[ChrisM]

Ah right. In that context, I get the impression it means, ‘can’t’ as in ‘shouldn’t’, as in, it’s possible, but might have cataclysmic affects.

[Pete Part Three]

>Seems far-fetched but then we?re not privy to all the facts.

You’re right. This is the last straw. This show has completely lost touch with reality and I’m not watching any more.

[pfm]

> and I?m not watching any more.

Yeah right.

[Pete Part Three]

>Yeah right.

Yeah, you got me. I was actually being sarcastic.

[Zombie Jim Undead]

Loved it.

It did have some of the worst Davies excesses – blunderbus narrative which goes at a million miles an hour, throwing in everything but the kitchen sink, leaping from one poorly conceived plot contrivance to the next with a reset button looming on the horizon…

But the Daleks were fantastic and Davros was absolutely stunningly perfect. Also thought Billie was much better this week.

Seems that the plot is following the path of the spoilers…here’s hoping they were all wrong from this point on, though. Two Doctors seems a naff idea.

Anyone else notice that at one point Donna heard the sound of drums?

[Danny Stephenson]

Anyone else notice that at one point Donna heard the sound of drums?

Next episode, Donna gets sucked into Jumanji

[ChrisM]

>Anyone else notice that at one point Donna heard the sound of drums?

I noticed the boom-boom, although it struck me more as a heart-beat. Which granted, has a certain drum quality…

That would be quite a twist though wouldn’t it? If that was followed through…

[Ridley]

Next episode, Donna gets sucked into Jumanji

“Flowtog mowtog botox blorog”

[Andrew]

> Anyone else notice that at one point Donna heard the sound of drums?

Or possibly the beat of one of the Doctor’s hearts…. Anyone else noticed how he specifically got shot on one side?

(Yes, I’m still skipping spoilers.)

[Michael Warren]

^ *nods* It was a grazing shot, rather than a direct hit…

[Stabbim the Skutter]

Doctor: It’s gone!
Donna: What’s gone?
Doctor: …the Earth! It’s gone, it’s missing, it’s not there! …Hang on…sorry, I was looking out the wrong window…

[Tarka Dal]

There’s been loads of Doctor Dwarf this year. Not that I can remember a single instance right now of course. There was definitely one in the Moffat two-parter.

Aww I love mentioning Moffat in conjunction to Who, it just makes me go all warm and fuzzy. Now If only 10-ant would regenerate into Fernando Torres.

Okay wild speculation time. We’re not going to get a true regeneration are we? Which the more I think about it, is a bit shit. It’s far too special an event to be toyed with so I’m hoping RTD has some kick-ass twist up his sleeve. I’d absolutely love it if somehow they’ve managed to keep quiet a new Doctor (Although after being very doubtful about DT I’ll be gutted when he does go). What I can’t see is how there will be enough screen time to introduce a new face when the final episode is going to be so choc-a-bloc with old ones.

There’s a lot of talk on various boards about Donna hearing Drums. I’m sure that was a heartbeat. I actually thought I heard very faint drums just before Harriet Jones’ message first buzzed through so that really threw me.

Also, have they really killed her off? We saw the Daleks fire and then it cuts to Jack at Torchwood watching the split-screen and her quarter of the turning into fuzz. Now logically doesn’t that mean they hit the technology and not her?

[Andrew]

> We?re not going to get a true regeneration are we?
> I?m sure that was a heartbeat.
> Also, have they really killed her off?

Like you read my mind, dude.

[Andrew]

Oh, how’s this for fucking annoying.

I went looking for anagrams that could be made out of ‘Mr Copper Foundation’, and you know what you get?

Seriously, this is fucking annoying.

You get:

“Profound importance.”

RTD, my head is being messed with, and I think I kind of like it.

(Addendum: Mr Copper was also the historian character Clive Swift played in VotD. So maybe it’s all just bollocks.)

[Al]

It seems to me (and it did last year) that the drum sound *is* a heartbeat. If you think about it, in order to get a timelord heartbeat, overlap two slightly quick human heartbeats, and you get the same rhythm thats been used all along as the drums. “A-B A-B”, A being the first heart and B being the second one. No idea what it means, mind. Wheres tonguetied to help us all make sense of this?

[Somebody]

> I went looking for anagrams that could be made out of ?Mr Copper Foundation?,

???

[ChrisM]

If ‘???’ means “What is the Mr Copper Foundation? I think it was where Donna said she worked. A subsidiary of Torchwood or some-such.

[Seb Patrick]

No, it was the company that helped Harriet Jones develop the sub-ethawave technology…

[Pete Part Three]

And Mr Copper was the bloke in VOTD, right? Richard Bucket who got a load of money and was told to fade into the background….

EDIT : Ah, Andrew already mentioned this.

[Andrew]

> No, it was the company that helped Harriet Jones develop the sub-ethawave technology?

Indeed. Harriet Jones mentioned it with an odd level of specificity. I thought it might be plot-relevant. Now I’m thinking it’s just a back-reference, and maybe a lead in to some next season stuff.

[Pete Part Three]

Thoughts on Martha’s key, anyone?

I forget its actual name, but it’s bound to be anagram friendly. Personally, I think it’s the reset button with the ability to wipe the memories of ever human being so they can’t remember any of the events when the Doctor eventually saves the day.

[Author]

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