The Name of The Doctor

[Jonsmad]

I bloody loved watch that. It was awesome.

Especially the bit at the start and the end. But loads of the middle as well.

Topic

[Connell]

Excellent episode. Not sure if I’m being too generous on how good the actual content was due to the brilliant references to the classic era but who cares.

Just downloaded the episode to watch again. Ended up watching the first 2 minutes and last 2 minutes 8 times over and skipping the main body of the episode.

Does anyone really give an utter shit about Jenny and Strax and Madame Vastra anymore? I don’t think Moffat realises they are tired ideas and the characters are done with.

[redhead85]

Bloody loved the reveal on Clara. What a brilliant way to throw back to the classic era as well as keeping in with the recent.

And how XXXXXXX’s “body” is represented in the XXXXXXX (blanked out in case I’m spoiling anyone accidentally!) A very clever way of representing it on screen.

[Jonsmad]

Yeah maybe with the lizard, potato, lesbian. I’m bored shitless of River too, but i suppose it was ok as an echo-thingy whatever bollocks it was. I did wonder whether the post-library river would ever get done, and at least it sort of has now, bit weird light a hard light obi wan kenobi! but still.

But I’ve just done exactly the same as you, with the opening and the last cliff hanger bits. Looped them. All of which make me grin. And the bit with the plain tardis in the time vortex yet to land in the junkyard and get stuck as a police box, through to the end of time becoming a policebox grave stone thing. Awesome, as a lead into the 3d 50th.

I’m going to laugh at anyone who didn’t like the reveal of hurt as the doctor. They will be missing out over numbers or other moans. I had read a few 50th spoilers but still it was awesomely shot in that way loved it. Whether he turns out to be a time war aged 8th, or a 0.5 of some kind or a 12th or a never was, I really dont care, it’s a triple doctor special at least coming up with a great twist. Brilliant idea, love it. Can not wait.

[Jonsmad]

Yeah the “body” was a bit similar to the time crack stuff, from moff’s first series, but it was excellent idea as well loved what they did with it. Loved what happened the character Richard E grant was playing, given the 9th shalka past and stuff. Plenty for obscure fan speculation of off screen etc.

[Seb Patrick]

I give lots of shits about the Paternoster gang. I love them and I want Jenny to be a companion at some point.

And yes, tonight was brilliant, obviously. Although I’m perplexed at some people being confused about exactly who Hurt is. Seemed pretty unambiguous to me.

[Pecospete666]

So what the fuck happened?

It comes on here in 27 min!

Is there a new doctor?

[Jonsmad]

Unambiguously the time war ending doctor?

[redhead85]

That was my bet, yeah. But my historical knowledge of DW is utter crap

[Jonsmad]

That’s what I got the most. That he was a doctor that The doctor isnt calling The doctor. So he like doesnt deserve a number, but mostly sits between 8 and 9 in some way. Clearly a great way to ramp up discussion to the 50th and it’s working with all the theories etc.

[Pecospete666]

Great! Waiting for something to jump out of his chest!

[srmcd1]

Remember ‘The Beast Below’? When the Doctor says that if he kills the Star Whale, he’ll have to find a new name, “because [he] won’t be the Doctor anymore”?

Moffat’s been building to this for some considerable time.

[Pecospete666]

I like J.Hurt ,it really surprised me ! Probably be the best Dr in a long time.

[Jonsmad]

Maybe they will have Chris Ecclestone bursting out from within john hurt at the end of the 50th episode.

[Joey TORDFC]

I am going to watch it again, first reason is I had been up all night on Friday and we watched it at midnight and I am sure Jo noticed me passing out occasionally ;) second reason for the quite frankly awesome new and old bits that given the limitations was superbly executed. Still don’t understand the use of titles though.

[Pete Part Three]

>Still don’t understand the use of titles though.

I think we’re supposed to believe that the Time Lord we know and love has had more than 11 faces, but one of them isn’t worthy of the title The Doctor. This was then undermined slightly by the big caption at the end….

EDIT: Jonsmad already pretty much covered this, I’ve just realised.

[Rad]

It was a great episode. I’ve seen the last five minutes about seven times now.

I loved her in Silence in the Library but I must admit River’s exit was something of a relief.

[si]

Going to rewatch tomorrow, as my head was having a private party to which Ivwasn’t invited, and I couldn’t concentrate on the episode for the noise, though my sister’s been kind enough to fill me in. (Or: Eyedrops and very bright lights at the hospital sent my brain a bit crazy on saturday, meaning I couldn’t concentrate on a single fucking word anybody said – somewhat frustrating when I’d been looking forward to Who all week.)

[Ridley]

‘Twas a great finale for a rather underwhelming series.

[genericnerdyusername]

I was seeing Bill Bailey’s Qualmpedller at the time (which, by the way, was excellent), but I’ve caught up and yes, it was brilliant, though one of the people I watched it with did immediately say, “well that was a bit naff” as soon as the credits started rolling. Takes all sorts, I suppose.

[Jonsmad]

>I think we’re supposed to believe that the Time Lord we know and love has had more than 11 faces, but one of them >isn’t worthy of the title The Doctor. This was then undermined slightly by the big caption at the end…

This is a better way of putting it. And yeah you are right about the caption. But I’d sort of say, not as contradicting what you say, more as a repairwork thing, that one is an in fiction universe statement from the 11th’s point of view, and the latter is a programme credit so in our real world so doesnt have to follow the in universe definition. At this stage.

[Tarka Dal]

It’s possible the anniversary show may allow for some kind of redemption, “time being re-written” in some way that allows Hurt’s Doctor to redeem himself or simply for The Doctor to confront and accept his past.

> Moffat’s been building to this for some considerable time.

Hasn’t he just.

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Trenzalore

The one thing we can predict is that for every reveal we get in the 50th another question, or twelve, will open up to hook us into Series 8.

Silence will fall.

[jmc2000]

Ridley: “Twas a great finale for a rather underwhelming series.”

I agree totally :o) I think it was my favourite of the Eleventh Doctor finales, and it was a lovely simple explanation (well – simple by Who standards) of the Clara mystery.

I wasn’t the only one who enjoyed it… I happened to be staying at my parents’ house last weekend, and – since it was a special episode – they agreed to tape Britain’s Got Talent and have Doctor Who on instead. After I provided a bit of verbal context, they were engrossed from start to end (the goodbye kiss with River Song – “since no one else in this room can see you, God knows how that looked” – got a huge laugh, and afterwards my dad asked whether the show was “always that good”!).

That’s a huge turnaround from the last time I managed to get my family to watch Doctor Who, which was when David Tennant made his last appearance. Everyone hated it (including me), and by the time the Ood started singing, people were actually rounding on me angrily and verbally attacking me for making them watch it (I think they felt like I’d ruined Christmas).

Connell: “Does anyone really give an utter **** about Jenny and Strax and Madame Vastra anymore?”

I *love* Strax. He always makes me laugh. I especially liked the previous episode, when he gave his steed a verbal dressing-down (“Horse!! You have failed in your mission!). I think the gang make for fine secondary characters in the Whoniverse and would be happy to see them again.

On the other hand, I feel that River Song’s story has definitely been told now. It’s a good story with nice closure, but I don’t think we need her back.

[Pongo]

I thought it was a load of tottenham. Some poorly updated footage of Classic Who followed by 40 minutes of everyone explaining how important things are? Here’s hoping things improve come November.

[genericnerdyusername]

Personally, I loved this episode and I liked this year’s batch of episodes overall, to be honest. I know it’s not popular opinion or anything, but there hasn’t been an episode that I’ve felt was a total loss. Yes, even that Rings one that everyone seems to hate. Though I do hope River’s gone for good, yes. “Goodbye, sweetie” is a good final line for her.

[Tarka Dal]

I’m with Genny.

A lot of opinion seems to suggest it’s becoming tired, formulaic wank. I can see the argument, but cliche and some clunky execution hasn’t stopped me enjoying every last episode. The ideas have generally been good and the various stops offs have had a good mix of historical and alien settings.

As an aside, whilst there’s always talk about multi-doctor stories, I think I’d be just as happy with a multi-companion story. The only Doctor I really want to see again is ‘Joe’ McGann. Whereas older, post-travelling versions of companions (such as Ace) I’d find far more intriguing.

[Pete Part Three]

I think there were a lot of problems with the episode, but the pre-credits sequence and the ending made up for it.

The threat of the GI and the Whisperman just felt minuscule. And the grand scheme was bizarre. We didn’t see the effects of it aside from The Doctor rolling around and moaning, and Madame Vastra having to reason with Strax (?). And then two minutes later, Clara undid it all by doing the exact same thing as the bad-guy…somehow. Um. Use you imagination and fill in the blanks, I guess.

It was nonsense, but it was slightly less nonsensical than the last two finales…so I’ll let it off.

And the cliff-hanger…If we can deliver on THAT in a way that’s satisfying and isn’t reset 60 minutes later…well, that would be peachy.

I loved the opening episode of 7B, just as I loved the opening episode of 7A. The rest? Very forgettable …until *this*.

[Seb Patrick]

And then two minutes later, Clara undid it all by doing the exact same thing as the bad-guy…somehow. Um. Use you imagination and fill in the blanks, I guess.

Well, she’s able to do the exact same thing because… well, there’s no reason why he’d be able to go through the timeline and she wouldn’t, basically.

She’s able to get out because she has the person whose timeline it is there to successfully navigate it and rescue her. A courtesy he doesn’t extend to the GI, for obvious reasons.

Okay, it doesn’t explain exactly HOW the Doctor’s able to rescue her, but it’s never explained exactly how TARDISes travel though time or how sonic screwdrivers work, either, so I’m not bothered about the how. What I’m bothered about is the logic not being contradictory, which – in this instance at least – I don’t think it was.

[MANI506]

As a casual viewer I thought the first episode this year was amazing, the Mark Gatiss one (Crimson Horror with Diana Rigg) was his personal best the last episode was very enjoyable.

The others I either can’t remember or didn’t like. One thing I will say is that the theme tune sounds amazing on head phones. This was the first time I’ve downloaded to the iPhone.

[HelloMabel]

> One thing I will say is that the theme tune sounds amazing on head phones.

Last night I saw one of my violin students in her school music ensemble’s final concert. The grand finale was “I am the Doctor” arranged for chorus, flute, alto sax, violin, viola, harp, piano, synth, guitar, bass and drums.

It was awesome.

[Pete Part Three]

>Well, she’s able to do the exact same thing because… well, there’s no reason why he’d be able to go through the timeline and she wouldn’t, basically.

I should have made it more clear. I meant that both the threat, and the resolution of the threat is so vague. The GI scatters himself through time…but we don’t see what he does. And we don’t see what Clara does to resolve this. We see her -kinda- mingling with the other Doctors but we get no examples of how she swoops in to save him from the GI.

So, to recap: there’s a threat…which we don’t see in any detail (we only see the results)…which is then resolved in the same way .by the companion doing exactly the same thing as the baddie (well, duh). This is mostly offscreen and rather vague.

I’m not fussed that it’s Clara who rescues him. Just slightly irritated that we never see what the GI does, nor really see what Clara does to resolve it barely five minutes later. It all looks a bit insignificant and “easy”.

Still, it got us to the final scene.

[jmc2000]

Pete Part Three: “I should have made it more clear. I meant that both the threat, and the resolution of the threat is so vague. The GI scatters himself through time…but we don’t see what he does. And we don’t see what Clara does to resolve this. We see her -kinda- mingling with the other Doctors but we get no examples of how she swoops in to save him from the GI.”

It *is* a bit vague. But I don’t think it’s quite as direct as Clara saving the Doctor from the Great Intelligence. I think the Great Intelligence behaved as a saboteur at various points in the Doctor’s timeline, and Clara was there shortly after to put things right in an equally subtle way. I don’t think she needs to have confronted the Great Intelligence directly.

Remember, we *do* see – or rather, have already seen – clear examples of how she saves the Doctor from disaster. Her scattered incarnations helped him through the events of Dalek Asylum and The Snowmen. I guess the implication is that, originally, the Doctor must have survived or completely avoided those encounters without needing Clara’s help. However, the Great Intelligence would have revisited such occasions and done some subtle meddling to make them end in failure.

For instance, in the case of Dalek Asylum, perhaps he was responsible for that starliner crashing in the first place, setting in motion a chain of events that resulted in the Doctor failing or doing something terrible.

After the Great Intelligence enters the Doctor’s timeline, but before Clara follows, we have to assume that his life history has been transformed into a catalogue of disasters, and is probably in the process of collapsing due to paradox (since any early failures – like stealing the wrong Tardis – would make future failures impossible, because he wouldn’t even be there to screw things up).

Luckily, once Clara’s incarnations are scattered through time, each scenario then gets rewritten a third time, with Clara’s help tipping the balance back in the Doctor’s favour.

As it stands by the end of The Name of the Doctor, the Doctor’s timeline has been through three rewrites. In the first draft, he did many good deeds across space and time; in the second, he failed or did dreadful things because the Great Intelligence was (unknown to him) always lurking in the shadows; and in the third and final draft, although he was dogged by sabotage from the Great Intelligence, he still succeeded, because Clara’s various incarnations gave him little leg-ups when he needed them (although he was rarely aware of her efforts and would have interpreted much of her help as mere good fortune).

[MANI506]

I zoned out and imagined what Pete Part Three would have been like. No worse than Only The Good I guess.

[srmcd1]

Well, there’s one thing I’m grateful for: we finally got an explanation for why Seven inexplicably dangled from his brolly off a cliff in ‘Dragonfire’. The Great Intelligence manipulated him into doing so, and then maybe the Clara on Iceworld manipulated things so that Glitz would show up.

[Seb Patrick]

I saw someone tweet how amusing it was that Clara’s reaction to the Doctor climbing down the cliff was exactly the same as the viewers: looking at him with baffled astonishment and going “What the fuck are you doing?”

[Ridley]

I kinda hope the meeting with Tennant is due to Smith and Clara’s escape from the time stream as their simply walking out of it… somehow would be a bit poo.

[jmc2000]

I feel the opposite actually. The next episode will be the 50th Anniversary special, which will be shown in 3D in cinemas. Obviously it’s going to advance this particular story, but I’m hoping it will also be sufficiently “standaloney” for casual watchers and non-Who fans to wander in and enjoy it as a movie. So I don’t think it would be a good idea to pick up the thread immediately following the Jon Hurt reveal, with the Doctor and Clara wandering around the time stream looking for a way out.

I think it would be better to start the movie some time later, to allow for the characters and core concepts (e.g., the Tardis) to be introduced in an organic way that will enlighten casual watchers without boring the die-hards (I think the opening of Serenity was a good example of this).

[Ben Paddon]

The next episode will be the 50th Anniversary special, which will be shown in 3D in cinemas. Obviously it’s going to advance this particular story, but I’m hoping it will also be sufficiently “standaloney” for casual watchers and non-Who fans to wander in and enjoy it as a movie. So I don’t think it would be a good idea to pick up the thread immediately following the Jon Hurt reveal, with the Doctor and Clara wandering around the time stream looking for a way out.

If this were an actual Doctor Who movie, I’d agree with you – a story produced with the intent of being shown exclusively in theaters. But it’s not. It’s an episode of the TV show that, as part of the anniversary celebrations, will also be shown in theaters on the day. To that end I have no problem with them continuing the story they’ve set up, which judging by set photos and the information we’ve been given so far is exactly what they’ll be doing.

[jmc2000]

“To that end I have no problem with them continuing the story they’ve set up, which judging by set photos and the information we’ve been given so far is exactly what they’ll be doing.”

Sorry, I might have explained myself poorly. I know that’s what they’ll be doing… but that doesn’t mean they have to literally pick up the minute the cliffhanger left off. They could open the 50th Anniversary episode some time later, with an exciting little vignette that re-establishes the characters in classic Who fashion, then do whatever flashbacks or exposition they need once bums are settled in seats.

Exactly what I’m hoping is that they can continue/conclude the missing Doctor story in a way that makes just as much sense to newcomers, because I’ve got friends who like sci-fi (but aren’t big Doctor Who fans) that I reckon I could talk into a cinema expedition. I want the special to be a box office success because it bodes well for further episodes in 3D/cinemas. If they literally start the episode with the Doctor and Clara wandering around the time stream, that might be quite alienating to anyone who hasn’t been following the series religiously.

[genericnerdyusername]

How odd; most comments I’ve seen from fans have been along the lines of “they must honour people who have been following the show religiously and not sell out (sigh) to a possible new audience”. I agree more with you, though. Maybe it will be more accessible anyway, seeing as the Name of the Doctor did some of the fan service people wanted from the 50th anniversary.

[Pete Part Three]

>I want the special to be a box office success

I wouldn’t hold out for amazing numbers on this. It’ll likely be a limited release and would have to open *after* the initial screening. I’d be relatively keen to see it in the cinema…if it wasn’t for the fact that it’s in shitty 3D.

Anyway, unlike Back to Earth and all its fanwankery, the fact that Doctor Who is an ongoing thing and has produced over 100 episodes in the last 7 years, means it should be allowed to be as self-referential as it wants for this episode. And I say that as someone who’s seen only a handful of “classic” episodes.

[pfm]

Which episode was the 100th?

[MANI506]

I make it The Crimson Horror.

[jmc2000]

PetePartThree:

“I wouldn’t hold out for amazing numbers on this. It’ll likely be a limited release…”

Yeah, fair point. But I’d like it to do well relative to expectations. It would be nice if whoever wrote the cheque thought, “That went better than expected – we’ll do it again from time to time!”

[By Jove its holmes]

Farewell Matt Smith, Hello to our 12th Doctor.

[HelloMabel]

Ben Paddon – weren’t you on a panel at Gally that debated who should portray the Twelfth Doctor? Or am I misremembering this?

[Ben Paddon]

I was! One of my co-panelists suggested I should be the Twelfth Doctor, and there was a tremendous round of applause. Which… y’know. odd.

We talked about whether Doctor Who fans are “ready” for a female Doctor, and I think that’s largely irrelevant. There’s always a period of acclimatization with a new actor in the role, and while I think it’d be a little longer with a female Doctor I imagine fans will eventually warm to her. Unless they cast, I don’t know, Cheryl Cole or something.

[Tarka Dal]

Question for the Who geeks. I tend to be against the idea of a female doctor on the grounds that, you know, The Doctor, isn’t female. However, what’s the factual on this? Has it ever been established one way or another that timelords/timeladies can switch between one sex and t’ other?

I’d very much welcome a non-white Doctor, objectively because casting an Asian, Black or an actor of another ethnicity would in theory continue to break down walls that still exist in the casting of lead actors.

Admittedly, that stigma also applies to female leads, but again I’m assuming The Doctor has by now been quantifiably established as male.

Also, Gwyneth Paltrow.

[si]

There was a throwaway line in The Doctor’s Wife regardibg a timelord who’d regenerated into men and women at various times. And in the Big Finish Unbound audio ‘Exile’, Arabella Weir played The Doctor who had been forced to change sex as punishment for committing suicide. So…yeah.

[Tarka Dal]

Oh right! In that case, definitely Gwyneth Paltrow.

[Ridley]

And in the Big Finish Unbound audio ‘Exile’, Arabella Weir played The Doctor who had been forced to change sex as punishment for committing suicide. So…yeah.

You have a woman’s time, my lord!

—-

Bit surprised The Corsair is said to have kept switching rather than being established as having chosen their sex over the other as a nod to transsexualism.

[Author]

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