The official The End of Time thread (will contain pre-broadcast spoilers/speculation and post-broadcast spoilers)

[Seb Patrick]

Here you go then, folks. Get your Who fix here for now, and we’ll do a new thread for Moffat-era spoilers when appropriate. But the old thread is still unlocked in case anyone finds some nice new pictures of Karen Gillan, and it’s here: http://www.ganymede.tv/forum/2009/10/doctor-who-in-an-exciting-adventure-with-the-spoilers

Remember, if you want to talk spoiler-free, or simply discuss anything that’s already been shown (whether Old Who or Old New Who), you can go here : http://www.ganymede.tv/forum/2009/10/doctor-who-and-the-lack-of-fatal-spoilers

Topic

[ChrisM]

>George Lucas owns the rights to the use of the word ?droid?.

Really?

As for the Master, his head actually looks a bit crispy to me under that image, suggesting a hologram disguise.

[ori-STUDFARM]

>Really?

That is actually true…Lucas owns the rights to the word “droid”.
http://www.geeksugar.com/6051336

[Danny Stephenson]

So whenevr it’s uttered in Dwarf, George Lucas is owed money?

[ori-STUDFARM]

Not sure how it works. I know there was a game a few years back that had the word Droid in it’s title that had to change it or be sued…however, I believe they have been a bit more relaxed in recent years

[NitroChrisUK]

http://blogtorwho.blogspot.com/2009/12/end-of-time-anthony-hopkins-involved.html

there has also been some more pic updates including a new pic of the sneeze creatures … great

[Alex]

And on their homepage there’s a new clip wiith Wilf in the Tardis too. Loooks interesting.

[The PerformingMonkey]

There’s no way that guy is Anthony Hopkins. For a start I think he’s Asian, and, with him being outside there, it’s just an impossibility that no inkling of this would have gotten out before now, even if it was just a cameo.

The only big name we didn’t know was Brian Cox and that’s because he only did ADR for the elder Ood. If he had been on set it would have at least appeared as a rumour. If a past Doctor DOES make an appearance it wouldn’t be a bolt out of the blue because past Doctors are constantly rumoured. They could have slipped in a past Doctor fairly easily without it getting out. Only McGann and/or Eccleston would have any relevance plot-wise so if there IS a past Doctor it better be either of those, otherwise it really will be 100% fanwankery and little else!

They need to save the fanwankery for the 2013 anniversary. EVERY Doctor should be involved then, even the incarnations no longer with us. An animated episode featuring all 11 (perhaps 12 by then!) Doctors! That would be fantastic. With voice actors doing Hartnell, Troughton and Pertwee. You know it makes sense. The Twelve Doctors!!!

[Somebody]

There’s some rumour we might see a child-Doctor scene (in the way we had the child-Master scene in Sound of Drums), but I don’t know whether to grant it any credence…

[genericnerdyusername]

I don’t want to see a child-Doctor. I know it doesn’t really affect anything at all, but I like as much mystery to be kept about the Doctor as possible. I didn’t even like the revealing of the staring into the vortex as children in the third series. I thought the Master was insane because he found himself at the back of two lines for Starbucks at once, but no, they had to go and ruin that theory for me.

My brother told me that its “obviously” Matt Smith’s Doctor who will knock four times. Anyone with him on that?

[genericnerdyusername]

Oh yes and my thoughts on previous Doctors reappearing… it’s not going to happen. I just don’t believe it and if DOES happen I’ll willingly drink cranberry juice. THAT’S how certain I am that it’s not happening, and Moffat won’t do it either, which is a bit obvious so I probably don’t need to say it. I think it’s just a bit TOO fanwankish.

[JamesTC]

>and Moffat won?t do it either, which is a bit obvious so I probably don?t need to say it.

Why is it obvious, he is the guy bringing back the Daleks and the Silurians and possibly the Cybermen in his first year and he has written a multi-Doctor story in the past.

[Jonathan Capps]

I think calling time Crash a story might be overstating it a little bit. It was, primarily, for fun.

[genericnerdyusername]

I’ve just eaten ALOT of food, so much that I’m unable to think at present. So I’m just going to retract my previous statement and agree with whoever is expressing an opinion at this time.

[JamesTC]

>I think calling time Crash a story might be overstating it a little bit. It was, primarily, for fun.

I guess scene or mini-episode would be a better epithet though you are being pedantic, arn’t all Doctor Who stories for fun, by which which I mean to entertain.

[Jonathan Capps]

> I guess scene or mini-episode would be a better epithet though you are being pedantic, arn?t all Doctor Who stories for fun, by which which I mean to entertain.

DOCTOR WHO IS SERIOUS BUSINESS.

I know we’re getting dangerously close to discussing ‘canon’ here, and while Time Crash is considered to be part of it, it’s something that was created without anywhere near the normal consideration that would go into a main episode. It was free reign for Moffat to write some fanwank without consequence, and the main series isn’t.

[JamesTC]

>and the main series isn?t.

‘The Five Doctors’.

[genericnerdyusername]

Moffat wrote The Five Doctors??? WOAH!

[JamesTC]

I said he written it? I was giving an example of a piece of fanwank in the main series.

Another couple of fanwanks –
‘Attack of the Cybermen’
‘Journeys End’

[Andrew]

> it?s something that was created without anywhere near the normal consideration that would go into a main episode. It was free reign for Moffat to write some fanwank without consequence, and the main series isn?t.

I disagree slightly, in as much as there’s no debate that the previous specially-made mini-ep – Tennant’s introduction – was done to be absolutely part of the main, ‘real’ story. To ‘count’. And I think Time Crash is afforded the same consideration.

Blink, arguably, is more or less without consequence to the main series arc; Fireplace, too. And Silence in the Library doesn’t affect RTD’s run, since River’s being saved for later. All three, essentially, put the toys back where they found them. Moffat gets to write drafts that go un-re-written by the showrunner, and with that partly in mind, he plays in a slight bubble. So Time Crash isn’t that far from the regular working method.

Since the debate was originally ‘can you call it a story’ as opposed to ‘a bit of fun’ – I don’t think one precludes the other. It’s very, very hard to tell a story in that time, yet Moffat IS careful to include a full narrative along with the gags. Arguably, indeed, it has a more conventional Doctor Who start-to-finish story than the previous CiN special.

It’s story enough to be a story, canon enough to be canon, indulgent enough to be fanwank, fun as all hell, and written with clear series consideration.

Using Time Crash as evidence that Moffat may do full, in-series multi-Doctor story again is nonsense. But so’s dismissing Time Crash as irrelevant non-story fanwank.

[Tarka Dal]

Right enough of this Who-vavu. Two things:

Ahead of the specials I’m introducing my flatmate to new Who. Well all Who infact, but we’re starting with the modern series.

He actually watched and enjoyed Waters of Mars with me when it aired and so I figured I’d try and get him a bit more into Who ahead of Tennant’s final eps.

Rose has been watched, but I’m now a bit stuck. We don’t have time to watch all four series between now and Xmas so which ones would people pick out as the essential shows. Toss like ‘Fear Her’ and the one with Maureen Lipman in can easily be jettisoned, but what else? I guess as Andrew says above the Moffat eps don’t really have much consequence to the overall series, although I’m tempted to show him all of those simply as examples of how utterly Doctor Who can and will be.

Okay second thing. Behind Dwarf, It’s probably safe to assume Who is the second most popular show amongst us here. Which has given me a bit of an idea. How about a G&T RTD-era Who survey just between us? I’ll be happy to tot up all the votes, and then I was thinking the results could be announced on New Year’s Day ahead of the last RTD ep.

Off the top of my head I’m thinking for catergories things like; Favourite Companion, Favourite Returning Villain, Fav. New Monster, Best Opening Ep, Best Finale, Best Epic Two-Parter, Best Bottle Ep etc.

Thoughts?

[JamesTC]

>Off the top of my head I?m thinking for catergories things like; Favourite >Companion, Favourite Returning Villain, Fav. New Monster, Best Opening Ep, Best >Finale, Best Epic Two-Parter, Best Bottle Ep etc.
>Thoughts?

I think it is a nice idea, though has there really been more than one bottle episode of the new series? Apart from the CIN specials all I can think of is the wonderful ‘Midnight’.

FYI, Donna/Wilf, Davros, Ood, Parters in Crime, Journeys End, The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances, Midnight.

[Pete Part Three]

Wilf (probably), Daleks (despite the overkill), Weeping Angels, Smith and Jones, Journey’s End, Human Nature/Family of Blood, Blink

[Tarka Dal]

Well if we’re going to do it, don’t give away your votes now. I’ll do a proper ballot thing in secret. For now if people would like to say ‘Yes do it’ and perhaps provide some suggestions.

Also any ideas for the Speedy New Who Catch-Up would be appreciated too.

[JamesTC]

>Also any ideas for the Speedy New Who Catch-Up would be appreciated too.

Go for the big episodes first, the popular ones, the ones which a neccesary to tell the story.
I suggest atleast regardless of what I think of them –
‘Dalek’
‘The Empty Child’/’The Doctor Dances’
‘Bad Wolf’/’Parting of the Ways’
‘The Christmas Invasion’ (New Doctor)
‘School Reunion’ (As an introduction to SJS)
‘The Girl in the Fireplace’ (Because it is a classic)
‘Rise of the Cybermen’/’The Age of Steel’ (For the Big Bad of the year)
‘The Impossible Planet’/’The Satan Pit’ (For the Ood)
‘Army of Ghosts’/’Doomsday’ (As an explanation for Rose going and her return and all that)
‘The Runaway Bride’ (As an introduction to Donna)
‘Smith and Jones’ (For Martha)
‘Daleks in Manhattan’/’Evolution of the Daleks’ (For the Caan! storyline)
‘Human Nature’/’The Family of Blood’ (Because it is a classic)
‘Blink’ (Second place in poll and all)
‘Utopia’/’The Sound of Drums’/’Last of the Time Lords’ (for the Master who is back, and ‘Utopia’ which is great)
‘Partners in Crime’ (An reintroduction to Donna)
‘Turn Left’/’The Stolen Earth’/’Journey’s End’ (To explain crazy Donna)
That is two episodes a night.

Those I think are the necessary ones, maybe ‘The Fires of Pompeii’/’Planet of the Ood’ too for all the DoctorDonna stuff.

I missed off ‘Silence in The Library’/’Rivers Run’ because those can be watched at a later time after the christmas specials I’d say, they are needed for the Moffat era though.

[Pete Part Three]

I’d agree with that except for Daleks in Manhattan/Evolution of the Daleks. Spending 5 minutes explaining who Caan is has got to be preferable to spending 90 minutes watching this shit.

[John Hoare]

Toss like… the one with Maureen Lipman

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[NitroChrisUK]

>the one with Maureen Lipman

worst new who ep there has been.

[John Hoare]

It bloody, bloody isn’t. It was great. If only for the evocation of 50s Britain, and the sheer cheek of the climax with the Betamax casssette.

[Andrew]

Sod ?The Christmas Invasion? – do the CiN special and movie on. ?The Runaway Bride?, ?Smith and Jones?, ?School Reunion? don’t especially matter, either. Go for good stories, not continuity stories: who the hell cares who Martha is?

?Rise of the Cybermen?/?The Age of Steel? is wank. ?Daleks in Manhattan?/?Evolution of the Daleks? is a bucket of wank in a big wank tank. And seriously, fuck ?Partners in Crime? until it dies.

Chuck in ‘Midnight’, ‘Pompeii’, ‘Library/Forest’.

[John Hoare]

And seriously, fuck ?Partners in Crime? until it dies.

THAT’S the worst ep of New Who there’s been!

I’d still stick up for the Dalek two-parter, but nowhere near enough to put it on a introduction-to-Who list, obviously.

I have an extremely large soft spot for Father’s Day. That’s a great standalone episode to show someone.

[JamesTC]

If you are chucking episodes because they are shit I wouldn’t include alot of them. ‘Gollum goes the Curcus’ and ‘Hoover of the Daleks’ would be the first to go for me. I included stories to make the viewer understand the later stories better and in the end ‘The End of Time’, remember they have all of time to watch every story but if they’d rather watch ‘The End of Time’ when it airs with a better understanding then it is best to watch continuity heavy stories (not in an ‘Attack of the Cybermen’ way).
Dropping ‘The Runaway Bride’ and ‘Partners in Crime’ would be just stupid, drop one but not both, missing out such an important companions opening story as well as the Wilf stuff in ‘Partners in Crime’ would make it a little harder to understand when just explained. As an aside I liked both of those stories, crap villain both stories but Tate more than made up for it.
I do think all the Cybusmen stories are utter rubbish (‘The Next Doctor’ was great but the Cybusmen were the low point, the Lake stuff was one of the best new series tales) and I would drop ’em if it were a measure of quality but it isn’t, regardless of quality they have a big part in Series 2 and directly link to Series 4.

[JamesTC]

>>And seriously, fuck ?Partners in Crime? until it dies.

>THAT?S the worst ep of New Who there?s been!

It is cute, funny and has a crap main villain but some cute ickle aliens (who are unintentionally the bad guy). It is by no means a classic but it was entertaining tele. RTD knows how to write the opener, atleast how I think they should be, just light hearted romps, ‘Smith and Jones’ is in the same style. One cringe worthy scene (which is down to effects) is the bit with Donna and the Doctor waving to Wilf from the TARDIS, I never knew the TARDIS had the power to turn 2D.

[John Hoare]

I think, though, that if you’re introducing someone to Who, you need to go for the *best* stories – not the ones “needed” for continuity. Anything else would be a disservice to the show. The heart of Who isn’t really in the arc, I’d argue.

If that means they won’t get some elements of The End of Time… then fine. (But I reckon that they’ll be able to fill in the gaps – as long as it doesn’t reach Journey’s End levels. And I REALLY hope it doesn’t.)

[JamesTC]

> as long as it doesn?t reach Journey?s End levels. And I REALLY hope it doesn?t.

Russel Tovay, Billie Piper, John Barrowman, Judoon, Ood, Time Lords, Camille Coduri, Jessica Hynes, Tommy Knight, Elisabeth Sladen and of course John Simm.

Harriet Jones was rumoured but who knows, she isn’t on any official cast lists so I guess she is dead.

[JamesTC]

Oh, did anyone watch ‘Dreamland’, the first clips didn’t look to good, the animation seemed to be trying something that it couldn’t reach but once you get a couple of minutes in you just don’t think about it, it was actually really very good, certainly better than ‘The Infinite Quest’, I will be picking up the DVD in February.

[Andrew]

> Dropping ?The Runaway Bride? and ?Partners in Crime? would be just stupid,

No. It would be a judgment call. What does it matter HOW the Doctor picked a companion up? Donna’s a rounded character, she comes across clearly in every episode she’s in. How she ended up on the TARDIS – twice – is wholly secondary to what she does when she’s there. Silence/Forest does Donna justice without fussing over the mechanics of arrival.

[Ben Paddon]

>Russel Tovay, Billie Piper, John Barrowman, Judoon, Ood, Time Lords, Camille Coduri, Jessica Hynes, Tommy Knight, Elisabeth Sladen and of course John Simm.

>Harriet Jones was rumoured but who knows, she isn?t on any official cast lists so I guess she is dead.

A list of guest stars is not a plot summary.

[JamesTC]

>A list of guest stars is not a plot summary.

It was for alot of ‘Journeys End’. Plus the cast list with so many past names means it will be continuity heavy.

[The PerformingMonkey]

Rose
Dalek
Father’s Day
TEC/TDD
BW/TPOTW
Fireplace
TIP/TSP
Runaway Bride
Smith & Jones
Human Nature/FoB
Blink
Utopia/Sound of Drums (not TLOTTL)
Pompeii
Library 2-parter
Midnight
Turn Left
Waters of Mars

EVERY SINGLE OTHER EPISODE CAN SMASH INTO THE SEA IN A BIG BALL OF FLAMES FOR ALL I CARE. Apart from The End of the World and The Unquiet Dead and a couple of others…Tooth & Claw, Gridlock, Shakespeare…but that’s besides the blummin point. That point being that –

NEW WHO IS CRAP APART FROM THE ABOVE.

[Seb Patrick]

I don’t have time to provide a full list as I’m on my phone, but to respond to a few opinions above, since I’ve been watching everything through from the start and have just finished series 2:

Christmas Invasion is fucking brilliant
The Idiot’s Lantern is not the worst but it’s a massive letdown
Fear Her is the worst episode of New Who. It’s not just for the Olympics bit, either – the whole thing is almost entirely unwatchable.

[Tarka Dal]

Thanks guys. I was in two minds about a lot of Series One, I was thinking End of the World because it’s the first time we/Rose go(es) off to the future, but then Unquiet Dead is our first dose of history and I decided that TEC/DD could cover that. I think we’ll go for Dalek next as that’s another re-introduction story.

[NitroChrisUK]

> Fear Her is the worst episode of New Who. It?s not just for the Olympics bit, either – the whole thing is almost entirely unwatchable.

oh yeah i had forgotten that one.with good reason

[John Hoare]

I enjoyed Fear Her when it was on. Not seen it since, but I certainly didn’t feel the same sinking feeling as I did during Partners In Crime. (Or Voyage of the Damned.) I remember really loving the drawings coming to life… and the opening TARDIS gag. And I found the abusive father stuff interesting.

I really need to buy Series 2, 3 and 4 on DVD. Can’t believe I’ve not got them yet.

[genericnerdyusername]

I liked Partners in Crime, that’s all there is to be said on the matter.

NO TAG BACKS!

[Pete Part Three]

>I remember really loving the drawings coming to life?

[Tarka Dal]

Okay for arguements sake, should we go for best Doctor-Lite ep or best Bottle episode? Where’s the divide?

Also I’m sure we used to talk about each series subscribing to a bit of a pattern. Something like Opener, Fun Two-Parter, Bottle Ep, Epic Two-Parter, Finale. Not quite those descriptions, but something similar. Would anyone like to neaten that up a bit and I’ll use those as catergories. Then throw in a more for good measure.

[JamesTC]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzEeRLbdnHc

Oh.

[NitroChrisUK]

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzEeRLbdnHc

>Oh.

“oh” sums it up pretty much spot on to be honest.

[Jonathan Capps]

You miserable fuckers have no heart.

[Tarka Dal]

I thought it looked okay. Anything with Wilf in is usually good.

Cappsy help me out with my waffling above. I’m sure it was you who used to have all the various episodes catergorised.

[Author]

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