The official The End of Time thread (will contain pre-broadcast spoilers/speculation and post-broadcast spoilers)

[Seb Patrick]

Here you go then, folks. Get your Who fix here for now, and we’ll do a new thread for Moffat-era spoilers when appropriate. But the old thread is still unlocked in case anyone finds some nice new pictures of Karen Gillan, and it’s here: http://www.ganymede.tv/forum/2009/10/doctor-who-in-an-exciting-adventure-with-the-spoilers

Remember, if you want to talk spoiler-free, or simply discuss anything that’s already been shown (whether Old Who or Old New Who), you can go here : http://www.ganymede.tv/forum/2009/10/doctor-who-and-the-lack-of-fatal-spoilers

Topic

[Jonathan Capps]

I reckon Performing Monkey’s got it about spot on. Although, I do remember putting together a very stripped down top ten for Gav, so I’ll try and dig that out now…

[Jonathan Capps]

Actually, I’ve found it and it’s out of date (pre series 4, not that that makes much difference) and not very good.

So, yeah, performing monkey’s.

[The PerformingMonkey]

> I don?t have time to provide a full list as I?m on my phone

Ooh hark at her.

> I reckon Performing Monkey?s got it about spot on.

Blatantly. Though I missed out The Christmas Invasion which was probably a schoolboy error. Though every time I think of it it’s always Tennant’s ridiculous ‘Blood control!! Oooooh I haven’t seen blood control for yeeeeeears!!!’ performance. I think Eccleston would have been so much better than Tennant in this episode, as well as several others in series 2, New Earth, Tooth & Claw, School Reunion etc. The Girl In The Fireplace is the first real Tennant episode, and even that has the embarrassment of his Doctor ‘drunk’ acting!

[Seb Patrick]

So apparently, at the time that RTD said the “six words” thing, the title of part one was The Last Days Of Planet Earth. But Julie Gardner made them change it.

Bitch.

[Ben Paddon]

Well, y’know, that title might have been too much of a giveaway.

[JamesTC]

I prefer ‘The End of Time’ Part 1 & 2 to ‘The Last Days of Planet Earth’, you could practically slap that title on half the episodes of the new series and it would be apt.

[Andrew]

> Well, y?know, that title might have been too much of a giveaway.

…and so they just tell people what the title was going to be instead?

[Tarka Dal]

> I think Eccleston would have been so much better than Tennant in this episode, as well as several others in series 2, New Earth, Tooth & Claw, School Reunion etc.

Ood. I was thinking the very same thing this morning. What is it with Moffat and Bananas? I’m halfway through ‘The Doctor Dances’ and there it is. I’ve half a mind to flick through Blink and Library/Dead just to see if there’s a strategically based yellow fruit anywhere.

[Tarka Dal]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OCtALC4nJI

Shame about the narration and most of the jokes, but the animations lovely.

[Ben Paddon]

> ?and so they just tell people what the title was going to be instead?

Well the New Who production team have made some pretty bloody daft decisions before. Such as, for example, putting the Big Reveal for “Daleks in Manhattan” on the cover of the Radio fucking Times.

[Ian Symes]

Surely that was the editor of the RT’s decision? I remember the Who team being absolutely furious about it.

[Ben Paddon]

The version I remember is this: The Radio Times approached RTD about it, and his attitude was, “Well, it’s the cover of the Radio Times!” and so they went ahead and did it. And it was fucking stupid of him to agree to it.

But I may be wrong, there.

[Andrew]

Regardless, it’s very different from the title thing. Getting the RT cover is, publicity-wise, worth a great deal and hard to refuse. Changing a title because you think it’s spoilerific then releasing the old name anyway has no comparable gain.

Which is to say: that’s not why they changed it. Of course it wasn’t. Aside from anything else, it’s no more huge, spoiler-y and OTT than the title we ended up with, or than the various other huge titles RTD has used over his run.

[JamesTC]

“When I said last issue that 4.17’s title was six words long, it had a completely different name – The Final Days of Planet Earth. But then we saw it on screen and said, as one, “Naaah”. Julie said, “This story’s too big! It needs Part One and Part Two!” So we broke our own rules, cos (a) that’s what rules are for and (b) there are no rules anyway. Wild and radical, that’s us!”
RTD, DWM 416

Nothing to do with spoilers, it didn’t look right, that is all.

[Ridley]

The audience should never know the episode is a multi-parter until the cliffhanger.

[Pongo]

>The audience should never know the episode is a multi-parter until the cliffhanger.

I’d suggest the same for regenerations, but with the level of publicity around filming these days that’s an impossibility. A mid-season regeneration would be nice.

[Ben Paddon]

I think you need The Waters of Mars, because it’s very much playing a big part in the Tenth Doctor’s upcoming death.

[Pongo]

I’m sure they’ll include plenty of doctoral arrogance and po-faced foreshadowing in the End of Time. No need to waste 60 minutes of your life to see Lindsay Duncan kill herself.

[Somebody]

Depends on how you count it – “Rose” is included in PM’s list, but “End of the World” isn’t, in spite of that being just as much a two-parter as “Utopia”/SoD/LotTL is a three-parter (the last scene of R continues directly into the first scene of EotW, after all – it’s one scene divided for packaging rather than creative reasons.)

And can EotW really be called either worse or less essential than “Impossible Planet”/”Satan Pit”, which PM *did* include?

[Tarka Dal]

> And can EotW really be called either worse than ?Impossible Planet?/?Satan Pit?, which PM *did* include?

Erm… YES?

[Pongo]

I haven’t tried to rewatch Impossible Planet/Satan Pit, but EotW holds up well enough – Britney Spears notwithstanding. Keep in mind I think David Tennant is the antichrist.

[Pongo]

re: The PerformingMonkey

A superlative list. We’re in agreement but for TEC/TDD, Runaway Bride, Smith & J, Library 2-parter, Midnight, Turn Left, and Waters of Mars, which I would swap out for The Unquiet Dead and Gridlock.

EDIT: I would also leave out Sound of Drums.

[Seb Patrick]

Depends on how you count it – ?Rose? is included in PM?s list, but ?End of the World? isn?t, in spite of that being just as much a two-parter as ?Utopia?/SoD/LotTL is a three-parter (the last scene of R continues directly into the first scene of EotW, after all – it?s one scene divided for packaging rather than creative reasons.)

By that rationale, is Army of Ghosts/Doomsday/The Runaway Bride a three-parter, since the scenes continue directly into one-another? How about Smith & Jones/Shakespeare Code? Or School Reunion/Girl in the Fireplace? Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways/Children in Need Special/Christmas Invasion/New Earth make up a five-parter, I suppose?

No. Don’t be ludicrous. Episodes can follow directly on from one-another while still being entirely separate stories.

And can EotW really be called either worse or less essential than ?Impossible Planet?/?Satan Pit?, which PM *did* include?

This is also insane – TEP/TSP is one of the few bright spots of series two.

[Pete Part Three]

Favourite RTD stories, anyone?

GREAT (in order)

Midnight
Utopia
The Stolen Earth
Journey’s End
The Waters of Mars
The Christmas Invasion
The Parting of the Ways

GOOD

Partners in Crime
The Next Doctor
Gridlock
Boom Town
Smith and Jones

MEH

The End of the World
Love & Monsters
Doomsday
Tooth and Claw
The Sound of Drums
Army of Ghosts
Rose

SHITE

New Earth
Turn Left
Voyage of the Damned
Last of the Time Lords
The Long Game
Planet of the Dead
World War Three
Bad Wolf
Runaway Bride
Aliens of London

[JamesTC]

GREAT

Midnight
Utopia
The Waters of Mars
The Christmas Invasion
Partners in Crime
The Next Doctor
Turn Left

GOOD

Journey?s End
The Stolen Earth
Gridlock
Boom Town
Smith and Jones
Runaway Bride

MEH

The Parting of the Ways
The End of the World
The Sound of Drums
Army of Ghosts
Rose
Bad Wolf

SHITE

Love & Monsters
Tooth and Claw
Doomsday
New Earth
Voyage of the Damned
Last of the Time Lords
The Long Game
Planet of the Dead
World War Three
Aliens of London

[Andrew]

> MEH
>
> Rose

This country…

[JamesTC]

I’d say ‘Rose’ is borderline but because of the bin and stretchyness of the naff plastic CGI it goes into Meh.

[Jonathan Capps]

I can forgive Rose’s shortcomings almost entirely based on what the episode represents and just how damn successful it is.

[John Hoare]

I can forgive Rose?s shortcomings almost entirely based on what the episode represents and just how damn successful it is.

This.

It gets better and better each time I watch it, too.

[NitroChrisUK]

http://blogtorwho.blogspot.com/2009/12/end-of-time-new-clip.html

now that is more like it

[Tarka Dal]

So erm…

http://gallifreynewsbase.blogspot.com/2009/12/moffat-announces-monster-return.html

Oooh.

[Tarka Dal]

Well despite largely agreeing with the advice above I’ve realised there just isn’t time before Xmas to bring my flatmate up to speed. So after watching Dalek we’ve gone out of sequence and jumped from Series 1 straight into Christmas Invasion. Which nicely doesn’t flashback or spoil too much of Series 1’s conclusion.

I’m know trying to think how to negotiate a path through to Waters of Mars that introduces most of the concepts / characters that we expect to feature whilst not spoiling any of the series themselves (hence side-stepping most of series 1 above)

Obviously the Master triumvirate is going to be essential, and I guess Planet of the Ood too if only for the bit at the end. Anything else?

I’m thinking he doesn’t absolutely need to see how Rose leaves, or perhaps even who Donna and Martha are other than being other companions (whose stories we can watch through in full at a later date).

[JamesTC]

>or perhaps even who Donna and Martha are other than being other companions (whose stories we can watch through in full at a later date).

Martha, no. Donna, yes.
That is if your flatmate wants to understand what Donna and her crazy mind is all about the in christmas episodes.

[Pete Part Three]

It has come to my attention that I earlier labelled “Partners in Crime” as “good”. It is, of course, “shite” and I was thinking of another episode.

[Tarka Dal]

Ha ha. So Donna’s in this Xmas, Martha’s not is that right as far as we know?

[JamesTC]

Yep, no word on Martha from the cast list or set reports.

[The PerformingMonkey]

> Yep, no word on Martha from the cast list or set reports.

That’s becaus Freema told them to fuck it when they wanted her for Children of Earth.

[The PerformingMonkey]

Every comment waiting for approval. How fucking fantastic. Approve my shitty arse.

[Pongo]

So they did one thing right.

[Ben Paddon]

How dare you.

[Seb Patrick]

I’ve just realised that I should have put my mod hat on and told you to take all of this discussion of stuff pre-End of Time to the non-spoiler thread. This thread’s going to be pagirritated before the episode even airs.

KARL, IT’S ALL YOUR FAULT.

[JamesTC]

>KARL, IT?S ALL YOUR FAULT.

Thanks Karl. Tharl.

[TheLeen]

Thanks Karl. Tharl.

:D

[JamesTC]

Bless you Marleen. Bleen

[Andrew]

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/tv/s7/doctorwho/tubetalk/a191937/ten-teasers-about-the-end-of-time.html

[ChrisM]

Quick edit due to:

I?ve just realised that I should have put my mod hat on and told you to take all of this discussion of stuff pre-End of Time to the non-spoiler thread.

I wrote this post before reading that. Sorry. Not spoilers now unless you follow the quoted URLs. Or have seen the latest Dr Who trailer.

>http://blogtorwho.blogspot.com/2009/12/end-of-time-new-clip.html

They actually showed part of that bit on the latest trailer too. Which I thought was perhaps a spoiler to far, although it didn’t bother me that much.

>http://gallifreynewsbase.blogspot.com/2009/12/moffat-announces-monster-r…

>Oooh.

Double “oooh”.

[Dessie]

I was not impressed with that. The next one looks good though.

[Jonsmad]

So then.

Simm-er World. !!

[Seph]

So…The Master’s been spending his afterlife hanging with the Dragonball Z cast?

[Jonathan Capps]

> I was not impressed with that. The next one looks good though.

How come?

Even taking into account the usual post-Who giddiness, I thought that was absolutely tremendous. The biggest sign of quality for me was how the reintegration of Donna–a character I do not like and thought had a very good ending–actually seems right and proper. At the moment, at least.

The, of course, there’s the most bat-shit insane cliffhanger EVER, with John Simm being rock solid BRILLIANT and then… well, Time Lords.

[Author]

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