Titan: Part 5 & Epilogue – SPOILERS

[Ian Symes]

Welcome to the spoiler-laden discussion thread for Red Dwarf: Titan Part 5: Terug Op Rooi Dwerg and the Epilogue.

This is a place for no-holds-barred, detailed, nitty-gritty opinions and theories on everything in the final part of the book, and indeed your overall thoughts on the story as a whole. So if you haven’t yet finished the book, get out of here immediately.

Your comments may be used in the DwarfCast Book Club at a future date, so if your point is related to a specific sub-chapter, do mark it clearly.

Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 | Part 5

 

Topic

[Warbodog]

I’d (annoyingly) seen comments that this book lacked an ending or had a shit one, but I liked it. A likely-never-to-be-resolved cliffhanger is as true to form as it gets.

I didn’t appreciate the gratuitous fan-service cameo a bit earlier on, but the authors at least have the decency to admit, via Rimmer, that it was completely unnecessary.

I initially felt no enthusiasm for the Titan project when it was touted as a recast reboot (eww) or cartoon. I feel like things worked out for the best (apart from the bit where Rob died), so we can imagine them looking and sounding proper. Kryten not being Kryten was a bit odd though.

Like (most of) its predecessors, this will be a book that’s with me for the long term, hopefully with many repeat trips for admiration and nitpicking, and my feelings will settle eventually. For now, I think it was really good and around the Backwards level. A real treat in these dark times.

[Warbodog]

That’s probably the biggest issue I have with the book (and, again, I broadly like it!), the fact that the central conceit of why it needs to diverge from prime universe feels like just the basis for an idea and not a fully-formed one.
All it really needs is a reason *why* future Lister is an anomaly. 

I also felt this, but like most issues with the book, I found a way to cope. Stasis is really messing with nature, so such an extended pause of time is comparable to someone messing with the timeline in Who/Trek/etc. And this universe/multiverse doesn’t tolerate that sort of crap as well as some of the others, I guess.

[Warbodog]

[applemask]

The sadly-rendered-all-too-evitable sequel should have been called Ganymede

[loadoftottnumb]

So I listened to the final hour in the car this morning, ironically arriving in Maidenhead just as Chris Barrie was reading the end credits (for those who were paying attention). 

Overall I liked most of the book, loved bits of it and disliked a tiny amount, so a good solid 7.5/10 overall, maybe an 8. 

I know what people mean about the ending not being emphatic but remember this was supposed to be the start of something not the end (so very sad). I think if this was how Series 1 of Titan ended, or the first 90 minute special, we’d be happy. 

[Podey]

It would definitely be a shame if this strand of Red Dwarf ends there. 

[Asclepius]

“can anyone help me get my head around why the smeg Lister being around Three Million Years hence was causing all the universes to collapse into each other?”

No. No, I cannot.

Duane Dibbley’s back. FFS. We thought Doug went broad and crass with the Reservoir Duanes in Series 8, but this is *literally* Danny dressed as the Cat as Duane just shouting “I’M DUANE DIBBLEY”. It’s either a meta joke on the shitness of Doug doing it, or a reminder that Rob wasn’t all that, and was always capable of this shit, too.

The ending. I can’t see how they all get out of being about to die as they crash. But also similar to the Backwards ending where, despite everything…all four of them reconnect (and at the right age). Yes, clearly a sequel was intended. I’d read an Andrew Marshall sequel.

*Really* should have gone with “It’s a smegging garbage pod” in the end, as another poster has gone with.

I did enjoy the “Dead, Dave” callback, too.

“A part of me kinda wishes they’d been brave enough to just have this series be solely Rimmer and Lister rather than finding ways to artificially insert Cat and Kryten”

Agreed. Cat was well written, but unnecessary. 

[Jonathan Capps]

“can anyone help me get my head around why the smeg Lister being around Three Million Years hence was causing all the universes to collapse into each other?”

I’ve not had multiple re-reads yet, but I took it to be similar to how the Aces in Backwards were getting burnt up going to a Universe too similar to them. This feels like reality can bear Lister being 3 million years in the future in scattered universes, but two right next to each other is a no-no.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

“can anyone help me get my head around why the smeg Lister being around Three Million Years hence was causing all the universes to collapse into each other?”

I’ve not had multiple re-reads yet, but I took it to be similar to how the Aces in Backwards were getting burnt up going to a Universe too similar to them. This feels like reality can bear Lister being 3 million years in the future in scattered universes, but two right next to each other is a no-no.

As far as I remember there is nothing explicitly in the text that gives any hint as to why its happening 

But it feels oddly contradicted by the fact the destiny machine is trying to force it to happen

Like, it’s Lister’s destiny to end up 3million year in the future … but this will also cause all universes to collapse?

[Will B]

“this is *literally* Danny dressed as the Cat as Duane just shouting “I’M DUANE DIBBLEY”. It’s either a meta joke on the shitness of Doug doing it, or a reminder that Rob wasn’t all that, and was always capable of this shit, too.”

– I read it as the former. The absence of any dated geek jokes (references to anoraks, thermos flasks, etc.), suggests that he is making fun of the way the Dibley character has been used. It seems a bit mean spirited. 

– I’m glad other people are struggling with the basic premise of the plot. I thought I was dumb for having no idea why Lister must…or can’t…what is it he must avoid or do? Why? 

– On that, why is Kochanski risking life and limb for Themis? 

– Reflecting on this book, there are loads of glaring, deep problems. It didn’t bother me at all when I was reading it though. It is peppered with funny lines and situations and it’s great to have new interactions between the characters. As a novel it is pretty crap, but as a collection of funny moments it’s great. 

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

> On that, why is Kochanski risking life and limb for Themis? 

She’d built a relationship with her over weeks organising the hen party. But I think also she’s just a good person. She stumbled on a mystery, this person she knew was suddenly being erased from existence. And I think she was more attracted to solving that and help Themis than she was her hen party, which she clearly wasn’t enthused by 

[Will B]

> On that, why is Kochanski risking life and limb for Themis? 
She’d built a relationship with her over weeks organising the hen party. But I think also she’s just a good person. She stumbled on a mystery, this person she knew was suddenly being erased from existence. And I think she was more attracted to solving that and help Themis than she was her hen party, which she clearly wasn’t enthused by 

I found it a bit far fetched. Why would she stick at the mystery when it becomes clear that she stands a good chance of dying? I didn’t get the impression that she knew Themis that well. I felt I needed a bit more on her motivation. It works fine as a cartoonish adventure, which makes sense of course given the origins of the book. 

Maybe we should think of it as a joke about how awful hen/stag parties are. I’ve definitely been at parties where I’ve felt that I’d rather disappear into a byzantine body horror mystery. 

[Podey]

I still want to know why the smeg everyone reacts to Themis as if she sounds like Kochanski as well as looking like her when a photo was the reference for the transformation. Especially odd when you consider this was originally a concept for telly, where that as a problem would be immediately apparent in the casting. I guess I just have to head-canon it that she secretly recorded their phone conversations (but then she didn’t know she was going to need to steal her face at that time, so aaaaaaaagh…..!)

And I struggle to believe that Rob would put a moment that is deliberately shit in there just to make fun of a different moment from 1999 that was also shit. To me, it felt like one of those moments where you could hear the imagined audience reaction. 

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

> this was originally a concept for telly

I do think we have to treat the book on its own merits and not constantly look at it through the lens of “what if this was on TV, what if it was live, what if it was animated?” … there may have been an idea to do something in those mediums, but what followed was two years of book writing.  There’s no way of knowing what parts of the book were ideas for any potential TV show or not.

[Podey]

True – and, additionally, I guess the ‘this person we don’t know looks like a person we do know’ twist only works in the book form.

[Dax101]

Yeah, Rob had never Back in the Red part 2, let alone making fun of it. 

I don’t think anyone ever said that Rob wouldn’t do referential stuff in his own work. its just in 30 years its only been Doug doing it. And i don’t like back references; they feel cheap. The Dibbley Family is embarrassing.

But another way of looking at it is that, Rob potentially always had this idea in mind that he wanted titan to be some kind of tv show. And in that case he likely thought about it like if for whatever reason he had to recast the fans may feel a disconnection from it unless its got fan-pleasing references they recognise *shrug*

[Podey]

You know what, though, I can imagine 75% of the readership going batshit for Dibbley in that moment. I was reading a very in-depth and balanced review on GoodReads the other day and the user mentioned that as a really good moment.

[Flap Jack]

I still want to know why the smeg everyone reacts to Themis as if she sounds like Kochanski as well as looking like her when a photo was the reference for the transformation. Especially odd when you consider this was originally a concept for telly, where that as a problem would be immediately apparent in the casting. I guess I just have to head-canon it that she secretly recorded their phone conversations (but then she didn’t know she was going to need to steal her face at that time, so aaaaaaaagh…..!)

For what it’s worth, in the audiobook Chris Barrie gives Themis a distinct voice from Kochanski. She has a local Titanese (South African) accent. Although as has been noted he doesn’t give Kochanski a Yorkshire accent despite the text noting she’s from there (for some reason).

The best I can reason is that Themis does her best Kochanski impression when she’s pretending to be her, and she ends up sounding close enough that people don’t question it.

[tombow]

Chloe Kochanski was Scottish with an English accent though I suppose? (In the tradition of Captain Picard being French with one). Maybe Chris assumed it was Kochanski tradition now. And I suppose it’s possible Titan doctors can change your voice to someone else’s based on a phone recording. They can turn a cat into a Cat-man after all.

[Dave]

Chloe Kochanski was Scottish with an English accent though I suppose?

Do we ever get confirmation that she has the same background as Clare-Kochanski?

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Chloe Kochanski was Scottish with an English accent though I suppose?
Do we ever get confirmation that she has the same background as Clare-Kochanski?

There’s a scene in Duct Soup (extended?) where she talks about growing up in the posh part of Glasgow and then going to AR boarding school. Which I think is meant to be a way to explain why she doesn’t have a Scottish accent 

[Dave]

Ah, I’d forgotten that.

[Richietee]

Maybe Book 2 could have/be set on Purple Quasar (I wonder what other ships are Red Dwarf’s sisters)

I have finished reading and bloody enjoyed it (though sad that there may not be a follow on unless Andrew can carry it on which I’d be up for!)

I didn’t see the Holly/Norman/Maneer reveal coming earlier on. I wonder if JMC actually set out to steal his personality or if they thought they had copied it. 

I was so sure Norman would pop up again as a last minute threat to the posse.

Rimmer and Carzon were a great duo, I loved the whole dynamic of Carzon being in awe of Rimmer but (unknowingly) insulting him. Glad that Carz’ isn’t just a Kryten clone but his own ‘noid (do they ever say droid in this universe?)

Loads more thoughts I will have to try and put together but here’s some random ones 

Mostly I’m positive about the whole book the only part I can highlight as an off bit was the Duane Dibbley inclusion. As I can’t figure out why it consists of Cat just shouting “I’m Duane Dibbley” over and over! I can sort of put it down to to him being in shock that he has to wear the dorky disguise (though I think he chose the outfit so…)

Kochanski was a stand out for me! I’d read a spin off novel of her detective adventures!

I feel a bit strange about the whole Themis living as Krissy thing. They do cover the morality of it (I think) but it just sounds like a nightmare having to live someone else’s life and marry a stranger (even if it’s a stranger that you get on with) and do a job that you have never done before (even with a guidebook)

I can’t wait to hear the Dwarfcast Book Club 

[tombow]

I still feel like the scene where Carzon believes he’s going to have to give up his life to download Kryten feels directly like the similar scene with C3po in star wars episode 9. I was expecting everyone who read the book to point it out.

[Warbodog]

I don’t think Data in Star Trek having his personality overwritten in various episodes and general demon/alien possession stories in fiction would have happened if it wasn’t for Carzon.

[Podey]

I still feel like the scene where Carzon believes he’s going to have to give up his life to download Kryten feels directly like the similar scene with C3po in star wars episode 9. I was expecting everyone who read the book to point it out.

There was reference to that in one of the “spoiler-free chat” articles on the front page but it was decreed as being too spoilery.

[Ian Symes]

I’ve read the book but not seen that or any other Star Wars film except for the Holiday Special.

[desbug]

+1 for not really understanding why the universe wanted Lister to be on Red Dwarf for the accident when it didn’t want him to be 3m years in the future in this universe. I just sort of ignored that element of the plot and enjoyed the hi-jinks and the Maneer detective story (I was half expecting him to turn out to be some alternate future / past version of Rimmer until the reveal actually came)

Also +1 for thinking it was unnecessary to have Dwayne Dibbley. But I also thought it would have been fine if the Cat character had just been Frankenstein throughout, Lister, Rimmer, and Frank Carson would have been a good enough quartet for me. 

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

+1 for not really understanding why the universe wanted Lister to be on Red Dwarf for the accident when it didn’t want him to be 3m years in the future in this universe. I just sort of ignored that element of the plot and enjoyed the hi-jinks and the Maneer detective story (I was half expecting him to turn out to be some alternate future / past version of Rimmer until the reveal actually came)

Also +1 for thinking it was unnecessary to have Dwayne Dibbley. But I also thought it would have been fine if the Cat character had just been Frankenstein throughout, Lister, Rimmer, and Frank Carson would have been a good enough quartet for me. 

There’s two things going on

For some reason, the universe is collapsing because of thing single or maybe multiple Lister’s existing in the future 

There’s some sort of destiny device that’s pushing Lister towards this future

It’s easy to read it as “the universe” and it being fate, but I think it’s unconnected and it’s some sort of future man made device like the Justice field or the Karma drive. The destiny device creates the events that leads to the future you’re destined to have

Why or how who knows. And why it operates at a universal level across time and space, who knows. 

[Flap Jack]

“What are you doing there, Carzon, you pretentious trash can on legs?”

“Taking one last look, sir… at the thickest thicko I’ve ever seen.”

“Oh for fuck’s sake.”

[Podey]

I also would have preferred Frankenstein to stay as Frankenstein rather than becoming the Cat but I also wouldn’t have wanted to miss an opportunity to see Rob writing the original characters again. 

[Flap Jack]

If we’re feeling generous, the “I’M DUANE DIBBLEY!” thing is Rob and Andrew making fun of sitcoms expecting applause just for showing a fan favourite character and nothing else – hence why Cat repeats it over and over – but the issue is that it falls into the trap of “if you’re satirising a crap thing by doing it, you’re still doing a crap thing”.

Whatever the intention, it’s still way too out of character for Cat to be happy and enthusiastic about being Duane Dibbley, just as it was in Back in the Red. It’s bizarre, because “Cat is forced by circumstance to be uncool and hates it” is such an obvious comedic choice, yet Doug and Rob both independently went the opposite way.

If they really wanted to get Duane in the book, they could have had him be a real guy that Lister and Rimmer inadvertently drag along for the adventure, and then have him turn into The Cat by merging with Frankenstein. Maybe they accidentally get into a teleporter at the same time? It would require a few other details to change, but at least they could have actually had some proper time with the character. As it stands it would have been better not to bother.

[Podey]

I can kind of make sense of Cat acting that way IF the version of him that was created has never experienced the events of Back To Reality and Emohawk. We know Duane Dibbley exists as part of his psyche because of those two incidents, but because Cat had a fear of actually becoming him, the association becomes one of trauma.

If this Cat hadn’t been through any of that then Duane Dibbley presumably just exists in his mind as a comedic character he has created external to himself, his idea of what an absolute charisma-hole dweeb would be like and that’s why he takes such joy in playing the character in that scene. 

(also, try getting your head around the legal agreement that wouldn’t allow for Talkie Toaster but would allow for Duane Dibbley??)

[MANI506]

I’m sure in a 1993 Smegazine Rob was on the record saying ‘I adore Duane Dibbley’ so I just took the nod in Titan as Rob having fun in an area he genuinely loves.

[Dax101]

When a show has gone on for so long, certain things become nostalgic even to the creators.

[Warbodog]

It’s like when someone wants to do a rubbish impression, but can’t think of any material, so just announces their name. AH’M BILLEH CONNOLLEH!

[MANI506]

[sleepey]

I don’t like prequels or multiverse reboots or shameless fanservice or satirical ultraviolent dystopias or stories without endings or Final Fantasy VII Remake, but despite starting with like negative 37 points I actually really enjoyed this. There’s a big nostalgia factor, sure, but it’s also just a lot of fun to read with a great sense of adventure, and such stylish (if sometimes rather rambly) prose. Not every joke or scifi idea is a winner, I’m sure I’ll have plenty to grouch about in the coming weeks & years, but my overall gut reaction is very positive. Might even be my fav of all the novels.

[L. T.]

Finished the book this evening on the beach. There is a real melancholy to the ending, which I imagine is due in part to my knowledge Rob has set things up for a sequel he’ll never get the chance to write.

Extremely bleak to deliver what appears to be a narratively satisfying ending and then go, “Surprise! This actually changed nothing and everyone is going to die anyway.” I do wish just for once we could have got a Red Dwarf book that had a conclusion which wasn’t tinged with sadness.

If I have one particular gripe about the ending, the penultimate chapter ending with Lister saying he won’t get in the garbage pod provides tension which is really quickly done away with when he simply gets in the pod two pages later. It is, I will concede, nice that Rimmer shows compassion to him for the first time – it’s almost Rob’s answer to the moonlight scene as for the only time in the book Rimmer shows he’s a human who understands Lister has feelings.

The epilogue does, as has already been stated, have that touch of “The Smeg It Is!” about it. It also adds to that melancholy I mentioned above. I wouldn’t have objected to that being changed to something a bit more upbeat and maybe even definitive but I imagine the book was too far into production once Rob passed and I can obviously understand Andrew not wanting to make any further changes to Rob’s final work.

Lister and Rimmer are tremendous throughout. Carzon was a lovely addition to the cast, I expected the switch to Kryten to be permanent but was happy when that wasn’t the case. Having a mechanoid with all of Kryten’s neuroses as well as several of his own was very fun and he never came off as simply a Kryten replacement, very much his own character. I enjoyed the change in dynamic that instead of being afraid to insult Rimmer and go against his programming like Kryten, Carzon would quite happily insult him while obliviously failing to realise that is exactly what he was doing.

Petersen and Pear were extremely fun. They contributed almost fuck all to the narrative except to lead Byle away from her pursuit of Lister and Rimmer but they did contribute plenty of laughs. Somehow Rob was able to deliver the same gag multiple times and it not stop being funny. The two becoming unlikely friends was perversely sweet.

Byle spent most of her story as a bystander, I thought. She spends most of the book failing to apprehend any of the four charges she’s after and then leaves when she becomes narratively inconvenient. Had a hard time imagining an actor/face for her as I read, though that’s a me problem.

Hollister, Todhunter, Holly and the other Dwarf crew were inoffensive additions.

Very fond of the stage show sequence, I can envision Chris acting his arse off in that for maximum laughs.

Kochanski is a strange one. This is a more fleshed out Kristine Kochanski than we’re used to by far. If this is who she was on TV, it’d be much easier to see why Lister pined for her. I will echo a few sentiments from above, though, it feels like she gets more involved in the story simply because that is what Rob and Andrew needed her to do. Obviously she wants out of the hen party and the subconscious reason is she wants out of the wedding. I’m not sure that’s reason enough for her to put herself in harm’s way so consistently as the book has her do. I will, however, applaud Rob and Andrew for making her an actual character. Kudos.

So, Themis, then. Obvious ethical issue of deception that certainly doesn’t pass the gender flip test and I’m not sure it passes as things are either. That said, I suppose it doesn’t matter as the regulars decide it’s fair enough to leave her to get belted in the face with a lethal dose of Cadmium II. To be absolutely clear, Kochanski decided to risk her life to save Themis’, which was wasted energy because she got radiated into a pile of talcum powder that afternoon anyway.

It’s not just me who thinks it’s weird to have the guy Holly’s based on be called Norman, right? Surely they realised.

I appreciate it’s nice to have Rob writing Cat and Kryten and, yes, on the book’s announcement I was initially wondering how he’d get around them being missing but on reflection I don’t think the narrative needed either. Frankenstein and Cat feel like two different B-plots where the front and back halves accidentally got switched.

The prose is lovely. Not all the jokes landed for me but a good number of those were me not getting a reference, so I’m sure anyone more well-read than I will have got a few extra chuckles as a reward.

It’s imperfect. And I do think the last few parts are where it stumbles a bit. But the first three parts feel just like Infinity and BTL. I’d be perfectly happy for Andrew to be allowed to continue this strand but I have to imagine it’s legally unlikely, to put it mildly.

Ultimately, the book is the final proof any of us should need of something we have known since 1997: Rob and Doug were stronger together than the sum of their parts.

[L. T.]

I’ll tell you what, though, I bet the Dibbley bit is going over like the Legion light switch gag over on r/RedDwarf and the original, shit Smegposting page.

[Ian Symes]

Yeah, it’s easy to forget that we’re in the vast minority among Red Dwarf fans with our reactions to Duane/Ace/Talkie returns.

[Author]

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