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  • #5541
    Petetranterssister
    Participant

    Ok so i get the jist that we can post about other programmes on here etc as long as they are cool (of course) so i was wondering if anyone knew if there was going to be a new series of torchwood??.

    I heard that there was going to be but i wonder how it would work with ianto, owen and tosh dead and a heavily pregnant gwen??.

    I am desperate to see captain jack again though i must admit even if children of earth made me love him (a teeny bit) less *sob*

    xxxxxxx

    #105629
    John Hoare
    Participant

    as they are cool (of course)

    Bah, there goes my George and Mildred posts.

    #105632
    littlesmegger
    Participant

    Torchwood could easily work again when it returns at a later date. The cast can be filled up quickly as well.

    There’s Gwen’s hubby Rhys who is practically a member of Torchwood now anyway. Lois will probably be jobless now and need a way of bringing in some cash… so she’ll be a perfect Tosh replacement. And don’t forget Captain John is still out there seeing the world, he’s able to come back and help Jack out too.

    Hopefully they won’t go down the route of bringing Martha into it properly, but part of me is thinking [aka dreading] that becoming the case.

    #105633
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    With Freeman Agyeman currently working on Law & Order: London, that seems unlikely.

    #105634
    Blisschick
    Participant

    All I want to know is how Capt. Jack becomes the face of Bo. Other than that, I can take it or leave it.

    #105636
    Petetranterssister
    Participant

    Oooh see i quite like Martha i wouldn’t mind if she were to take up a role, i quite like it when torchowood and dr who cross paths.

    Lois seemed to have a good role in children of earth so i would assume she is brought back in it too like you mentioned but more of rhys? GOD NO!

    I know jack becomes the face of bo but i wonder why the face of bo never told the Dr who he really was hmmm?

    xxx

    #105642
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Martha was supposed to be in Children of Earth, but she got the L&O job instead. I can’t help but feel that the end of Who series 4 was supposed to be setting up Mickey to join them, too, but maybe something went wrong in negotiating with Noel Clarke.

    There will be more Torchwood, almost certainly. As far as I’m aware it’s not being actively planned at the moment (everyone involved is busy elsewhere) but there’s no denying that the success of CoE will have completely revitalised the show (even if it finished the job of almost entirely removing its core cast). Ignore what the twatty “Janto” shippers had to say online, and the reception was almost universally positive. They’d be mad to throw away that goodwill by not following it up and continuing to move in the “proper adult gripping drama” direction.

    #105644
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >I know jack becomes the face of bo but i wonder why the face of bo never told the Dr who he really was hmmm?

    Because RTD makes it up as he goes along?

    #105645
    Dave
    Participant

    >I know jack becomes the face of bo but i wonder why the face of bo never told the Dr who he really was hmmm?

    It’s not definite the Jack becomes the Face of Boe, it’s entirely possible that a final Torchwood episode could end with Jack’s death

    #105646
    Andrew
    Participant

    > It?s not definite the Jack becomes the Face of Boe

    And it’s not definite that The Doctor regenerates. Maybe he gets replaced by an alternative Doctor from another dimension when he dies, one who coincidentally has similar but different memories and personality traits. Just because it’s told in the dialogue doesn’t make it true, right?

    Sure, it’s REFUTABLE, but that’s not the same as the show suggestion anything other than Jack Will Be The Face Of Boe. Who writes that into the show as a coincidence to be refuted later on? It was intended as a discovery of fact.

    I mean, it’s a stupid thing to have done. (I get why it was irresistible to write once the idea occurred, but it’s still a dreadful notion once you work it through.) But the only reason to dismiss it is wishful thinking. Davies may eventually regret the choice and refute it, but let’s be clear – as of right now, it’s as definite as anything else we get told in constructed fiction by heavy implication and character realisation.

    #105648
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    >I know jack becomes the face of bo but i wonder why the face of bo never told the Dr who he really was hmmm?

    Well it’s a laugh, innit?

    #105649
    Dave
    Participant

    I’m not dismissing it, it doesn’t bother me at all.

    #105657
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >But the only reason to dismiss it is wishful thinking.

    Doesn’t the Doctor or Matha metion FoB in Utopia, while Jack is standing there and he doesn’t react?

    #105663
    Gwynnie
    Participant

    He doesn’t KNOW he’s going to become FoB, though? And we just assumed that he slowly ages so much that he becomes a massive face. Obviously ^_^
    There are a lot of crazy fangirls trying to delude themselves into ways of bringing Ianto back. He was cool, to be fair (and Welsh). And it won’t be the same without the Owen/Tosh sexual tension, and Gwen is a massive slag. Soooo…. they’d better bring in some new characters, preferably David Tennant, but that ain’t gonna happen :(… there’ll probably be a lot more homoerotic kissing, too, hopefully.

    #105668
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    Gwen really came into her own during Children of Earth, I thought.

    #105669
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    > Gwen really came into her own during Children of Earth, I thought.

    Which would’ve meant something else entirely in the series 1 days.

    #105673
    Petetranterssister
    Participant

    Remember when jack was walking away one episode “the face of bo they used to call me” he said.

    Maybe he just is sooooooooooooooooo old he can’t remember or maybe there is a reason he didnt tell the dr?

    Jack was in the first episode with the master when he was dr yana, they figured out who he was via the face of bos message “you are not alone” which means jack must have remembered that to tell the dr when he was the face of bo? confusing lol

    But i agree children of earth awakened so many new people to torchwood they would be silly not to carry it on.

    #105682
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >He doesn?t KNOW he?s going to become FoB, though? And we just assumed that he slowly ages so much that he becomes a massive face. Obviously ^_^

    But he knows the name “Face of Boe” as two episodes later he announces it used to be his nickname. You’d expect a reaction at least when they mention the name.*

    *= can’t actually remember whether he’s there when it’s mentioned, so this is conjecture.

    Btw, Torchwood used to be The Phantom Menace. Then, this year, it became Empire.

    #105685
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Then, this year, it became Empire.

    Minus the bold and interesting ending, instead proffering a quick plot fix and clumsy moral question.

    #105695
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Well, you can prove anything with facts.

    #105696
    Dave
    Participant

    >Gwen really came into her own during Children of Earth, I thought

    I always had time for Gwen.

    #105697
    Dave
    Participant

    >and Gwen is a massive slag

    I always had time for Gwen.

    #105699
    Gwynnie
    Participant

    Heheh. Nah, the whole “thing” between her and Jack annoyed me. Also, Rhys(or Rees, not sure if we’re going with the Welsh spelling) is underrated – he’s just a very “normal” (or boring), real person, but he takes the whole alien thing pretty well and does a good job of helping out (kind of). Plus his whole speech to Gwen about how she was fighting so that people could still lead normal lives, so if she didn’t want a normal life herself what was the point etc, brought my respect for his character up… and Gwen just cheated on him left, right and centre, despite fiercely maintaining that she wanted to marry him.
    Can someone tell me when Jack knows about the Face of Boe? He does say they used to call him that, in series 2 I think, it’s definitely when Rose was there… I need to watch again. But I can’t remember Jack ever being in the same place or time as FoB, so it’s possible that he was ignorant about his existence…

    #105703
    Andrew
    Participant

    I love Rhys. I think he’s been beautifully played and smartly written. Which, given that he was in the first two series, is no mean feat.

    #105705
    littlesmegger
    Participant

    >I know jack becomes the face of bo but i wonder why the face of bo never told the Dr who

    If we’re really going to read into this, even though it’s not 100% that he is the Face of Boe… seeing Jack was aware he’d mentioned it in 2009, he would be aware that in The Doctor’s timeline he’d become aware of the present in the future, and so there’s no need to say so in the future because the present would say it for him, which to Boe would be the past and oh no I’ve gone crosseyed. o.O

    See, try explaining these things, and it becomes clear that you’re better off not doing so!

    #105711
    Andrew
    Participant

    > even though it?s not 100% that he is the Face of Boe

    I’d really like to know what people base this on…aside from ‘plausible deniability’. It’s right there in the dialogue, surely? Is the response “Yeah, but there might be another Face of Boe – one Jack, like, gave his name to!”?

    #105712
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >Doesn?t the Doctor or Matha mention FoB in Utopia, while Jack is standing there and he doesn?t react?

    I’ve just checked this. It’s at around the 40 minutes mark and Martha has just discovered YANA has a fob(!) watch. She says “Think of what the Face of Boe said…” while standing next to Jack who doesn’t even react.

    #105718
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >> even though it?s not 100% that he is the Face of Boe
    >I?d really like to know what people base this on?aside from ?plausible deniability?. It?s right there in the dialogue, surely? Is the response ?Yeah, but there might be another Face of Boe – one Jack, like, gave his name to!??

    I’ve not listened to it but I think the podcast commentary released after it has RTD saying it is just a joke/theory, I’m sure you can find the cast on the official website.

    #105719
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Optional downloadable commentaries can’t be taken as an official answer, though – it can be the writer’s intent, but if it’s not denied onscreen, then it’s fair game.

    #105720
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Or, to quote from the classics:

    “Could easily be redressed as a blacksmith’s shop!”
    “You what?”
    “Well, maybe Arthur Scargill’s father was a blacksmith!”
    “He wasn’t!”
    “Yes, but it doesn’t say that in the *script*!”

    #105721
    Petetranterssister
    Participant

    lol little smegger your response has friend my brain i think!

    xxxxxxxxxx

    #105728
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >Optional downloadable commentaries can?t be taken as an official answer, though – it can be the writer?s intent, but if it?s not denied onscreen, then it?s fair game.

    What if it wasn’t confirmed on screen? I mean coincidences happen, a race of Cybermen were created in our universe on our twin planet Mondas yet in another universe another race of Cybermen were created on an alternative earth and that universe was then linked to ours, a very big coincidence there so Jack having the same name as a head in a jar wouldn’t be very strange. I don’t think we know enough for or against Jack as Boe right now, I don’t think we ever will, it was just a throwaway line/joke.

    #105730
    littlesmegger
    Participant

    > She says ?Think of what the Face of Boe said?? while standing next to Jack who doesn?t even react.

    Well Jack wouldn’t be aware of Boe’s future… but Boe would be aware of Jack’s past. So he’ll remember discussing his childhood with the Doctor, and when it occured and what was going on at the time.

    So the fact Jack isn’t aware, doesn’t mean he isn’t Boe.

    > lol little smegger your response has fried my brain i think!

    so did mine, and I wrote the damn thing!

    #105731
    Jo
    Participant

    >I mean coincidences happen

    In life coincidences happen.
    You think RTD wrote that line not realising the connection? Oh look! What a coincidence I just implied that Jack is the Face of Boe, I hadn’t realised, silly me! If there was no connection there’d be no point including the line in the script, it wasn’t essential to the plot.

    #105733
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >You think RTD wrote that line not realising the connection?

    I think he written it to add a little joke to the end. Besides how the hell is Jack meant to turn into a big face in a jar and then die? He can’t die, he is a fixed point in time, if his head was cut of then his body would slowly grow back (like in COE when he grew all his skin back).

    #105734
    ori-STUDFARM
    Participant

    It’s not Jack. The face of Bo is Bo Diddley!

    #105735
    Andrew
    Participant

    > So the fact Jack isn?t aware, doesn?t mean he isn?t Boe.

    No – but it does mean RTD was making it up as he went along. Someone in the room says they’ve been talking to someone with your – massively unusual – name and you don’t so much as blink? Then you, concidentally, tell them how you got that name a few days later as if they’ve not heard the name before? Come on…

    > I think he written it to add a little joke to the end. Besides how the hell is Jack meant to turn into a big face in a jar and then die?

    The dialogue is specifically about the way his body WILL change. He’s aging, altering, despite the immortality. So just as The Doctor would age into a tiny version of himself, apparently, so Jack won’t simply stay Jack-shaped. That the final shape might be a big head is both in-keeping with the RTD Whoniverse, and specifically hinted at in the dialogue.

    So. The evidence for is dialogue and revelation that matches the way other info is revealed in fictional drama, and specifically in this show. Plus prescident in the episodes for the kind of change being implied. The evidence against is…what? That it’s possible that it’s a coincidence if a future writer wants it to be? (Which is like saying that we can’t assume that Rose isn’t an alien, since she’s not been explictly dissected on-screen and a new writer could reveal her to be one.)

    #105737
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >No – but it does mean RTD was making it up as he went along. Someone in the room says they?ve been talking to someone with your – massively unusual – name and you don?t so much as blink? Then you, concidentally, tell them how you got that name a few days later as if they?ve not heard the name before? Come on?

    This. Obviously, this.

    #105739
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >He?s aging, altering, despite the immortality

    He is also dying despite the immortality.

    #105742
    Andrew
    Participant

    I’m also unsure how telling an audience that Jack is FoB in dialogue that goes un-contradicted works as a joke. “Hey, let’s fake a story revelation – it’ll be hilarious! Maybe next we can imply that Jack is Gwen’s dad and never prove otherwise, that’ll be funny.”

    RTD clearly realised that, irresistable or not, this turned out to be a duff idea. But his commentary doesn’t deny it as canon, and the script explicitly makes it so.

    #105745
    Andrew
    Participant

    > He is also dying despite the immortality.

    But immortality is just what we call it. Fixed point in time, if you prefer, suggests he’ll only die when he’s meant to, as per the use of the same phrase in Fires of Pompeii and Waters of Mars.

    The REAL reason, of course, is more RTD tap-dancing. How could The Doctor meet FoB in episodes before Jack is resurrected by the Doc’s involvement? Of course the science doesn’t track – what RTD/Who science does? – but the storytelling is totally by the book.

    #105746
    JamesTC
    Participant

    As I say I haven’t listened to the commentary, I haven’t even listened to the DVD commentary (and I doubt I ever will, much better stories waiting for a listen) but it says this on Wikipedia –
    “In the episode’s commentary, writer Russell T Davies called the implication of Jack’s nickname (“the Face of Boe”) “a theory” as to the Face of Boe’s origins, prompting Executive Producer Julie Gardner to urge him to “stop back-pedalling” about the two characters being the same. Davies then mentioned the addition of a line in “Gridlock” in which the Face of Boe calls the Doctor “old friend”, suggesting a strong connection between him and the Doctor.”

    #105747
    Andrew
    Participant

    So it’s acknowledged that what’s confirmed in the episode is just being back-pedalled with Davis’ commentary (like I said, latter regret which doesn’t alter episode content). And it’s clarified that them being old friends was added specifically to suit the Jack reveal.

    Same old case: post-reveal there’s no canon content to refute what was stated. Davies ackowledges it CAN be refuted, which is true of anything. So: Rose is an alien and the Doctor doesn’t actually regerate. If it can be theorised, it counts, apparently.

    #105748
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Rose is the Rani.

    And don’t be crazy, the Doctor can regenerate, if he couldn’t then the theory of him being the Rani couldn’t be true and as we all know, the Doctor IS the Rani.

    I heard a rumour that Ianto is the Rani and that he has regenerated into Jack who is laos the Rani and that actually all that time Jack was going out with himself, I mean I don’t know how we didn’t realise before.

    Oh and you are the Rani.

    #105751
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Oh and you are the Rani.

    It would certainly explain my life’s piss-poor storyline…

    #105752
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    Rani is the Rani!

    #105770
    Andrew
    Participant

    Just watching CoE again. Ianto’s just died. Should I be posting hysterical crap about Davies being homophobic on the internet now? Or should I just read this and get some sense of perspective?

    http://www.afterelton.com/TV/2009/7/russeltdavies

    (The governmental debate over the selection of which ‘units’ to give to the 456 is just brilliant. I can’t imagine it was written without someone in the room bringing up the BBC/HBO film Conspiracy. “What else are league tables for?”)

    Oh. Episode five’s coming up. Suspect the buzz will be wearing off shortly…

    #105771
    JamesTC
    Participant

    I really didn’t expect Ianto to die, even with the rumours floating about, I even made a post on here saying something like “I doubt they would kill Ianto” the day before. It was a very good moment, no quick fix with bad sci-fi to save someone, just a death, a great moment and a great end for the character.
    After episode 5 though I kind of wish Ianto returned as a zombie and used his magic zombie powers to save the day.

    #105772
    JamesTC
    Participant

    One thing I don’t understand is that people were angry after and wanted them to bring Ianto back to life, I really don’t understand why they would want that to happen, makes me wonder what will happen after ‘The End of Time’ at the end of this year, tens of people campaigning for RTD’s head until the Doctor unregenerates into David.

    #105774
    Andrew
    Participant

    Well, there it was. With 17 minutes to go, and following the fucking brilliant stuff with Capaldi killing his family, things get ballsed up with a nonsensical load of “reverse the polarity” bolllocks. Iantos’s death was a bit more arbitrary than the drama needed, but frying the kid is still just…limp. Gah!

    #105776
    littlesmegger
    Participant

    Without killing the child Jack wouldn’t have felt the need to go away. Plus the story of Jack being darker and sending the children the first time around wouldn’t have been a needed plot point. It’s all to give Jack more depth, not really a plot solver.

    If they’d just gone in guns blazing and killed it, Jack would’ve felt good about himself, Torchwood wouldn’t have shut down for the time being, and there wouldn’t have been an end to the show [for if the ratings weren’t good].

    At least this way everything was tied up, but in a way it can be restored if needs be. Which they clearly will do, seeing John has mentioned a filming block early next year being pre-booked in his schedule for if/when it’s comissioned.

    #105777
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >It?s all to give Jack more depth, not really a plot solver.

    Infanticide = character depth.

    #105779
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Without killing the child Jack wouldn?t have felt the need to go away

    So it was done to make him want to go away? Um…was that something that had to happen, then? He was written as leaving – fully six months AFTER the events of CoE – as a way of putting the show on hold. Fair enough. But the kid wasn’t killed off in order to make that occur; the kid was killed to allow some moral questions on the subject of sacrifice and greater good.

    Jack was able to be written as leaving because the kid was killed, the kid wasn’t killed in order to make Jack go. It wasn’t a set-up to allow his departure – what would be the point of that? Why do we need him to leave at the end?

    (In fact his departure is strictly mechanical. It puts the show on hiatus, but more importantly it means we can skip over a large part of the Miserable Jack stuff we’d otherwise have to endure. Nobody enjoyed that last time it was done, and this way he an just arrive in the new series more or less back to his old self. It’s a way to begin undoing what the CoE’s ending does to him…only moments after it happened.)

    > Plus the story of Jack being darker and sending the children the first time around wouldn?t have been a needed plot point.

    The whole point of the earlier sequences was to show this as a story of sins being revisited, sure. The 456 come back because they got what they wanted last time- it establishes that even this visit won’t be the last, that they’re likely to come back yet again demanding even more – and that this all began with Jack’s original crime.

    So his role this time around is to atone, or at least to revisit on him the horrible consequences of his actions. What killing his grandson was meant to do was – in story terms – was punish Jack. It was intended to make him pay. But it was done in such a clumsy way, in the final 17 minutes of a five-hour story, “Hey, or we could just fry your grandson!”, that it felt way more arbitrary than in needed to.

    And it didn’t need to. Jack’s had decades to think about the 456, to muse on his guilt and think how it could have gone. To realise a solution too late, to become obsessed with what he COULD have done. There’s a really interesting story to be told in Jack knowing from the start how to solve the problem and struggling with it, since it means making the same choice the government is having to – select a child. But instead the dilemma is started and concluded in about the same time it takes to cook a frozen pizza.

    It didn’t help that the kid lacked a rounded character – his mum’s annoying, but the kid’s just a blank, which means it’s hard to care about him personally. To make that conclusion work, and conceptually it does, the kid needed to be far more important to us. After you lose Ianto – the funniest and most likeable to the Torchwood characters – the sacrifice of the brat feels pretty flat.

    > It?s all to give Jack more depth, not really a plot solver.

    What Pete said. But also:

    Never said frying the kid was a plot-solver – ‘Hey, we can just send the signal backwards’ is the plot-solver, and it’s the same half-arsed, un-seeded, quick-wrap-up gibberish that threatens to overturn so much of the greatness of RTDs writing. (He has a real ending problem.) The sacrifice is conceptually fine, but to place it at the centre of the quick plot fix was a huge fault in the execution.

    The best endings are seeded good and early, they should slot in like the final jigsaw piece, there on the table from the start you just didn’t know it.

    #105781
    John Hoare
    Participant

    I really enjoyed the finale, and felt it was very powerful – but it’s difficult to disagree with most of your problems with it, and even I felt it was *slightly* too out-of-the-blue.

    It didn?t help that the kid lacked a rounded character – his mum?s annoying, but the kid?s just a blank, which means it?s hard to care about him personally. To make that conclusion work, and conceptually it does, the kid needed to be far more important to us.

    I found it upsetting enough – I think if they kid had mattered to us even more, it might have been *too* upsetting to watch.

    I certainly think it would have led to far more outcry about the show – as unfair as that might be…

    #105785
    Andrew
    Participant

    > I found it upsetting enough – I think if they kid had mattered to us even more, it might have been *too* upsetting to watch.

    Maybe it’s just me, but I so completely didn’t care.

    When the kid’s so generic, and our relationship with him is so young (he matters to Jack so much that we’ve not seen him in two years of Torchwood), Jack’s choice seems totally justified. It becomes the basic math problem – one child or millions – that it should never have been. The aim was to put a human face on the dilemma, and for for me it failed utterly at that.

    Plus, yeah, I was just reeling from the ‘Hey, here’s a dilemma for ya!’ arrival of the story’s climax…

    Still, I wish the outcry HAD been about the sacrificing of a child. That’s something to have an outcry about – hero makes hard, brutal choice. Instead it’s easily smothered by the tedious sound of shippers doing the Ianto whine.

    #105796

    > Maybe it?s just me, but I so completely didn?t care.

    RED DWARF ASSISTANT SCRIPT PRODUCER EDITOR WHATEVER ‘I’M OK WITH CHILD KILLING’ JIBE

    #105802
    Petetranterssister
    Participant

    >It?s all to give Jack more depth, not really a plot solver.

    Infanticide = character depth.

    lol

    I liked the way the show went, All the way through i expected there to be a “happy” ending but it has become very well separated from dr who now, whereas the dr always saves the day and everyones a happy chappy jack isnt the dr hes just a normal guy and doesnt have that magic make everything better ability.

    As great as the show was we found it left us on a bit of a downer and made us feel completely different about captain jack a charachter we loved and to do that meant it was a pretty powerful story.

    #105804
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >whereas the dr always saves the day and everyones a happy chappy

    Unless you are in the Peter Davison era.

    #105809
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    >the dr always saves the day and everyones a happy chappy

    “Everybody lives, Rose! Just like always, everybody lives!”

    #105818
    Gwynnie
    Participant

    The sacrificing his own grandson really upset me. Not because of the actual child, but the way that he coldly ignored his daughter’s cries and screams as he allowed her son to be killed in front of her. But he’d just lost Ianto, so we can feel sorry for him or hate him. Either way, if the government hadn’t acted like a bunch of retards and just asked him to help in the first place instead of trying to seal him into concrete cells and the like… well, you know.

    #105830

    Hmmm. Happy or sad endings in the new series, let’s see…

    Rose – happy
    TEOTW – melancholic, bittersweet maybe
    Unquiet Dead – bittersweet again (Gwyneth dead, Dickens happy)
    AoE/WW3 – not really that happy all round
    Dalek – fairly happy, strangely enough
    Long Game – funny, throwaway ending
    Father’s Day – sad end, not dark though
    TEC/TDD – happy, the most uplifting ending so far
    Boomtown – unsure (can’t fucking remember the ending tbh!)
    BW/TPOTW – emotional, all over the place

    TCI – very happy indeed, self-congratulatory bollocks
    New Earth – sad with Cassandra, happy Doc and Rose smug
    Tooth & Claw – ominous Queen Vic warning but mostly smugness
    School Reunion – very happy, self-congratulatory smugness(…)
    TGITFP – sad, moving, masterpiece-like
    Cybes – who actually cares??
    TVs and shit – smug as fuck
    TIP/TSP – mostly happy
    L&M – hey I’m shagging a paving slab, how happy can you get??
    Fear Her – a storm’s coming, Tennant with Olympic flame!!
    AoG/Doomsday – sad, emotional departure

    That’s only a handful of happy endings in 27 episodes (series 2 smugness and all that). Expect plenty of happy endings in series 5 (of course, I mean the new series 1…) because Moffat seems to like them. All except TGITFP. Speaking of TGITFP, if he’s ever capable of that form again WE will be the happy ones.

    #105833
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >Boomtown – unsure (can?t fucking remember the ending tbh!)

    The TARDIS opened and it turned the Slitheen into an egg that didn’t fart.

    #105834

    Oh yeah, don’t know how I could forget that. Sort of a happy ending then, what with Jack in his non-brooding days.

    #105838
    John Hoare
    Participant

    In conclusion then, shippers are idiots.

    Excellent.

    #105840
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    Boom Town does end though with Mickey and Rose’s relationship problems still hanging in the air. Rose runs off to the Doctor instead of Mickey and when she comes back looking for him he mearly watches her from afar then leaves silently, presumably back to London.

    But all this is ignored to an extent when he comes running back to her in ‘The Parting of the Ways’.

    #105842
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    That’s because, as Mickey pointed out himself in Boom Town, he cares for Rose even after she abandoned him. “I can’t even go out with a stupid girl from a shop because you pick up the phone and I come running.” No matter what happens Mickey still feels for Rose. That doesn’t change, right through to the end of series two – he loves her. Logic and reason be damn’d.

    By series four he seems to have come to the realization that he can never be with Rose, which is why he doesn’t go back to Pete’s World. Does he still love her? Probably. That’s how love works, y’see. The Lister of Series I and II held above all things an irrational infatuation with Kochanski even though she’d barely ever spoken to him. The Lister of Series III onwards still held a ruddy great big torch for Kochanski even after she dumped him. Love, as well as being a device invented by bank managers to make us overdrawn, is a powerful emotion.

    #105845
    Gwynnie
    Participant

    And Rhys still loves Gwen even though she mostly treats him like shit (see how I veered it back to Torchwood). What is it with RTD and women treating their puppydog men badly? Hmm.

    #105848
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >What is it with RTD and women treating their puppydog men badly?

    It isn’t limited to women, look at Jack going off with John while he was with Ianto. It just seems like all the likable characters (Mickey, Rhys, Ianto) just get treated like shit by the people who are meant to be the main good guys, I don’t like that.

    #105849
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    Being Mickey Smith –

    CONS: Are treated like shit by stupid, selfish girlfriend. Picked on by wheelie bins.

    PROS: Will end up as a cool Kyle Reese style resistance fighter, only with a bigger gun.

    #105850
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    CONS: Gets buggered up the arse by the kid from Byker Grove.

    #105852
    JamesTC
    Participant

    That was Rickey

    #105853
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    I always get those two guys mixed up. They have similar features. Were the actors related?

    #105857
    Gwynnie
    Participant

    Racist!

    #105862
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    > It just seems like all the likable characters (Mickey, Rhys, Ianto) just get treated like shit by the people who are meant to be the main good guys, I don?t like that.

    You’d hate Battlestar Galactica then, what with the supposedly good characters doing quite blatantly nefarious things, and the supposedly bad characters making actually quite sensible points even if they go the wrong way about expressing it.

    You like your telly nice and clear-cut, don’cha?

    #105869
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    I feel I’ve missed a quality discussion, but I did spot this…

    > even if it finished the job of almost entirely removing its core cast

    All in all a 100% successful trip.

    > You like your telly nice and clear-cut, don?cha?

    He sort of has a point though. You can have ‘grey’ characters without making them such arseholes that there’s very little reason to route for them.

    #105874

    Look at Kate on Lost (go on, I dare ya). Since they mostly took away that ‘grey’ side of her she has been an extremely boring char IMO. Not that she ever had the most thrilling story (or the best actress playing her, let’s be honest, though Evangeline is bea-ea-utiful to behold) but when there was at least some danger about her it felt refreshing. Now she’s goodie goodie blandness what’s the point??

    Of course, Jack has also been a weak link. So much so that his ending better be bloody specacular to merit him being the ‘main’ char. I think he was improved in season 5 to an extent, though it felt like he had less screentime. Sawyer was definitely the main good guy in season 5.

    #105876
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Character.

    #105879
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > Now she?s goodie goodie blandness what?s the point??

    Well the point I was making is that grey characters are good. However if they get the balance wrong then they tip over into just being unlikeable people.

    I realise that’s not the same for everyone, but that was one of the main things that put me off Torchwood.

    Whereas in Buffy for example the lead character acted like a throughly unlikeable cow for a good couple of seasons, but great writing (for me) meant that she retained just enough sympathy to still be worth watching.

    #105890
    Gwynnie
    Participant

    Well… I watched Buffy for the other characters. She was just annoying.

    #105894
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    Correction: Sarah Michelle Gellar is just annoying. She’s a bitch. Even Joss Whedon hated her – he couldn’t wait to kill her off in season five.

    #105897
    Jo
    Participant

    …and then bring her back to life in the first episode of season 6.

    That showed her!

    #105899
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    She speaks very highly of you, too, Ben.

    #105901
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    > ?and then bring her back to life in the first episode of season 6.

    At the time season five was written it seemed likely that’d be the end of the show as The WB had said they had no plans to pick it up again. Keep in mind that it’s not the same thing as being cancelled, which is what happened to Firefly and Angel. Whedon wrote an ending that’d work as a series finale should it have to serve as one.

    Ultimately it didn’t, because UPN jumped in and said “Yeah, we’ll have two more seasons of that, please.” So they kind of had to bring her back. Otherwise you’re stuck in a Taggart scenario.

    Another TV show that experienced a similar “non-cancellation”, but that went the other way entirely, is The Dresden Files. The first season was a ratings smash for The SciFi Channel here in the US, but it wasn’t making SciFi much money. They didn’t order any more episodes but they wouldn’t say whether or not they were cancelling it. Eventually time passed, the actors found themselves having to move on to other projects to make sure that they could, y’know, afford to live and stuff like that, and once the actors had done so SciFi made an announcement saying how disappointed they were that the actors had moved on and tried to make it sound like it was the fault of the actors and the production company, Lions Gate.

    It occurs to me that in the last week I’ve publicly slagged off Focus Features and SyFy, both of whom are owned by NBC Universal. That might explain why I haven’t heard from them about that job yet.

    #105903
    Gwynnie
    Participant

    If we’re on the subject of Whedon… has anyone watched Dollhouse? And what did you think? I’ve just finished season 1… I enjoyed it but I really want to discuss it.
    Where did this come from? Ah, Jack being bland? I don’t know… for someone who’d died that many times, spent 1000 years or something underground and seen so much of the universe, he still seems a bit too sane. But maybe the healing thing works on his mind, too (as it does in Heroes).

    #105906
    Dave
    Participant

    I loved Dollhouse season 1, I haven’t seen any of season 2.

    #105908
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    From what I’ve seen of Dollhouse season 2, it’s very excellent indeed. Much, much better than most of the (still enjoyable) season 1.

    #105909
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Got 4 episodes of Dollhouse on my Sky box. Haven’t mustered up the enthusiasm to watch them yet after been underwhelmed by Series 1.

    #105911
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Watch them.

    #105912
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    This. I was a teensy bit underwhelmed by Season 1 too, but Season 2 has kicked its ass.

    Conversely, I really enjoyed Season 1 of Fringe, but the first few episodes of Season Two were so poor that we’ve got a bit of a Sky+ backlog.

    #105913
    Andrew
    Participant

    No spoilers, but…series two has really picked up that much? It’ll be great if it has, I just had the feeling the format was always going to get in the way of real excellence.

    #105914
    Dave
    Participant

    >I just had the feeling the format was always going to get in the way of real excellence.

    I did worry that Whedon’s reaction to Firefly being broadcast in the wrong order and Fox TV’s resistance to the overarching storyline of Angel seasons two to four, went too far in the opposite direction: “You want reset button TV? I’ll write the reset button into the narrative itself.” My fears were mostly groundless, but obviously simultaneously utilising and kicking against the horror movie or western genre yields more material than how many characters can the admittedly brilliant Eliza Dushku play, either one after the other or all at once. How many new and interesting ways are there to use that chair?

    #105915
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    And by “the format” you mean “Eliza Dushku’s acting ability”, don’t you?

    #105916
    Andrew
    Participant

    > And by ?the format? you mean ?Eliza Dushku?s acting ability?, don?t you?

    Not especially – she does fine. Not exceptional, but fine.

    I think series one showed up a huge set of problems in the construction of the show. I need to get my NtS article on the subject finished; but if series two’s awesome it may not be worth it…

    #105917
    Dave
    Participant

    >she does fine. Not exceptional, but fine.

    I think she has pitched it just right, she’s different enough in each personality without it being: “And now I do my cowgirl accent.”

    #105918
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Dollhouse season 2’s strengths lie in the fact that it jumps right into the over-arcing story that was being built up over season 1, sans fucking about with self contained episodes. No spoilers, but there’s also a bit of a character reshuffle that makes the whole thing tighter and more focused meaning that there’s some cracking momentum building up.

    Ian’s wrong about season 2 of Fringe, by the way. It’s definitely better than season 1, for much of the same reasons that Fringe is now better.

    #105919
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    (Although Dollhouse is of course several yards better than Fringe)

    #105941
    Andrew
    Participant

    And thus the writing of an article becomes even more pointless until I see season two…

    http://io9.com/5402497/the-apocalypse-comes-early-for-joss-whedons-dollhouse

    #105942
    Jo
    Participant

    :o(

    #105944
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Shitbags.

    #105949
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    Oh ffs. I’ve not even started watching it yet! Fingers crossed his next project rhymes with kipper.

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