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  • #5541
    Petetranterssister
    Participant

    Ok so i get the jist that we can post about other programmes on here etc as long as they are cool (of course) so i was wondering if anyone knew if there was going to be a new series of torchwood??.

    I heard that there was going to be but i wonder how it would work with ianto, owen and tosh dead and a heavily pregnant gwen??.

    I am desperate to see captain jack again though i must admit even if children of earth made me love him (a teeny bit) less *sob*

    xxxxxxx

    #105629
    John Hoare
    Participant

    as they are cool (of course)

    Bah, there goes my George and Mildred posts.

    #105632
    littlesmegger
    Participant

    Torchwood could easily work again when it returns at a later date. The cast can be filled up quickly as well.

    There’s Gwen’s hubby Rhys who is practically a member of Torchwood now anyway. Lois will probably be jobless now and need a way of bringing in some cash… so she’ll be a perfect Tosh replacement. And don’t forget Captain John is still out there seeing the world, he’s able to come back and help Jack out too.

    Hopefully they won’t go down the route of bringing Martha into it properly, but part of me is thinking [aka dreading] that becoming the case.

    #105633
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    With Freeman Agyeman currently working on Law & Order: London, that seems unlikely.

    #105634
    Blisschick
    Participant

    All I want to know is how Capt. Jack becomes the face of Bo. Other than that, I can take it or leave it.

    #105636
    Petetranterssister
    Participant

    Oooh see i quite like Martha i wouldn’t mind if she were to take up a role, i quite like it when torchowood and dr who cross paths.

    Lois seemed to have a good role in children of earth so i would assume she is brought back in it too like you mentioned but more of rhys? GOD NO!

    I know jack becomes the face of bo but i wonder why the face of bo never told the Dr who he really was hmmm?

    xxx

    #105642
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Martha was supposed to be in Children of Earth, but she got the L&O job instead. I can’t help but feel that the end of Who series 4 was supposed to be setting up Mickey to join them, too, but maybe something went wrong in negotiating with Noel Clarke.

    There will be more Torchwood, almost certainly. As far as I’m aware it’s not being actively planned at the moment (everyone involved is busy elsewhere) but there’s no denying that the success of CoE will have completely revitalised the show (even if it finished the job of almost entirely removing its core cast). Ignore what the twatty “Janto” shippers had to say online, and the reception was almost universally positive. They’d be mad to throw away that goodwill by not following it up and continuing to move in the “proper adult gripping drama” direction.

    #105644
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >I know jack becomes the face of bo but i wonder why the face of bo never told the Dr who he really was hmmm?

    Because RTD makes it up as he goes along?

    #105645
    Dave
    Participant

    >I know jack becomes the face of bo but i wonder why the face of bo never told the Dr who he really was hmmm?

    It’s not definite the Jack becomes the Face of Boe, it’s entirely possible that a final Torchwood episode could end with Jack’s death

    #105646
    Andrew
    Participant

    > It?s not definite the Jack becomes the Face of Boe

    And it’s not definite that The Doctor regenerates. Maybe he gets replaced by an alternative Doctor from another dimension when he dies, one who coincidentally has similar but different memories and personality traits. Just because it’s told in the dialogue doesn’t make it true, right?

    Sure, it’s REFUTABLE, but that’s not the same as the show suggestion anything other than Jack Will Be The Face Of Boe. Who writes that into the show as a coincidence to be refuted later on? It was intended as a discovery of fact.

    I mean, it’s a stupid thing to have done. (I get why it was irresistible to write once the idea occurred, but it’s still a dreadful notion once you work it through.) But the only reason to dismiss it is wishful thinking. Davies may eventually regret the choice and refute it, but let’s be clear – as of right now, it’s as definite as anything else we get told in constructed fiction by heavy implication and character realisation.

    #105648
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    >I know jack becomes the face of bo but i wonder why the face of bo never told the Dr who he really was hmmm?

    Well it’s a laugh, innit?

    #105649
    Dave
    Participant

    I’m not dismissing it, it doesn’t bother me at all.

    #105657
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >But the only reason to dismiss it is wishful thinking.

    Doesn’t the Doctor or Matha metion FoB in Utopia, while Jack is standing there and he doesn’t react?

    #105663
    Gwynnie
    Participant

    He doesn’t KNOW he’s going to become FoB, though? And we just assumed that he slowly ages so much that he becomes a massive face. Obviously ^_^
    There are a lot of crazy fangirls trying to delude themselves into ways of bringing Ianto back. He was cool, to be fair (and Welsh). And it won’t be the same without the Owen/Tosh sexual tension, and Gwen is a massive slag. Soooo…. they’d better bring in some new characters, preferably David Tennant, but that ain’t gonna happen :(… there’ll probably be a lot more homoerotic kissing, too, hopefully.

    #105668
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    Gwen really came into her own during Children of Earth, I thought.

    #105669
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    > Gwen really came into her own during Children of Earth, I thought.

    Which would’ve meant something else entirely in the series 1 days.

    #105673
    Petetranterssister
    Participant

    Remember when jack was walking away one episode “the face of bo they used to call me” he said.

    Maybe he just is sooooooooooooooooo old he can’t remember or maybe there is a reason he didnt tell the dr?

    Jack was in the first episode with the master when he was dr yana, they figured out who he was via the face of bos message “you are not alone” which means jack must have remembered that to tell the dr when he was the face of bo? confusing lol

    But i agree children of earth awakened so many new people to torchwood they would be silly not to carry it on.

    #105682
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >He doesn?t KNOW he?s going to become FoB, though? And we just assumed that he slowly ages so much that he becomes a massive face. Obviously ^_^

    But he knows the name “Face of Boe” as two episodes later he announces it used to be his nickname. You’d expect a reaction at least when they mention the name.*

    *= can’t actually remember whether he’s there when it’s mentioned, so this is conjecture.

    Btw, Torchwood used to be The Phantom Menace. Then, this year, it became Empire.

    #105685
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Then, this year, it became Empire.

    Minus the bold and interesting ending, instead proffering a quick plot fix and clumsy moral question.

    #105695
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Well, you can prove anything with facts.

    #105696
    Dave
    Participant

    >Gwen really came into her own during Children of Earth, I thought

    I always had time for Gwen.

    #105697
    Dave
    Participant

    >and Gwen is a massive slag

    I always had time for Gwen.

    #105699
    Gwynnie
    Participant

    Heheh. Nah, the whole “thing” between her and Jack annoyed me. Also, Rhys(or Rees, not sure if we’re going with the Welsh spelling) is underrated – he’s just a very “normal” (or boring), real person, but he takes the whole alien thing pretty well and does a good job of helping out (kind of). Plus his whole speech to Gwen about how she was fighting so that people could still lead normal lives, so if she didn’t want a normal life herself what was the point etc, brought my respect for his character up… and Gwen just cheated on him left, right and centre, despite fiercely maintaining that she wanted to marry him.
    Can someone tell me when Jack knows about the Face of Boe? He does say they used to call him that, in series 2 I think, it’s definitely when Rose was there… I need to watch again. But I can’t remember Jack ever being in the same place or time as FoB, so it’s possible that he was ignorant about his existence…

    #105703
    Andrew
    Participant

    I love Rhys. I think he’s been beautifully played and smartly written. Which, given that he was in the first two series, is no mean feat.

    #105705
    littlesmegger
    Participant

    >I know jack becomes the face of bo but i wonder why the face of bo never told the Dr who

    If we’re really going to read into this, even though it’s not 100% that he is the Face of Boe… seeing Jack was aware he’d mentioned it in 2009, he would be aware that in The Doctor’s timeline he’d become aware of the present in the future, and so there’s no need to say so in the future because the present would say it for him, which to Boe would be the past and oh no I’ve gone crosseyed. o.O

    See, try explaining these things, and it becomes clear that you’re better off not doing so!

    #105711
    Andrew
    Participant

    > even though it?s not 100% that he is the Face of Boe

    I’d really like to know what people base this on…aside from ‘plausible deniability’. It’s right there in the dialogue, surely? Is the response “Yeah, but there might be another Face of Boe – one Jack, like, gave his name to!”?

    #105712
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >Doesn?t the Doctor or Matha mention FoB in Utopia, while Jack is standing there and he doesn?t react?

    I’ve just checked this. It’s at around the 40 minutes mark and Martha has just discovered YANA has a fob(!) watch. She says “Think of what the Face of Boe said…” while standing next to Jack who doesn’t even react.

    #105718
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >> even though it?s not 100% that he is the Face of Boe
    >I?d really like to know what people base this on?aside from ?plausible deniability?. It?s right there in the dialogue, surely? Is the response ?Yeah, but there might be another Face of Boe – one Jack, like, gave his name to!??

    I’ve not listened to it but I think the podcast commentary released after it has RTD saying it is just a joke/theory, I’m sure you can find the cast on the official website.

    #105719
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Optional downloadable commentaries can’t be taken as an official answer, though – it can be the writer’s intent, but if it’s not denied onscreen, then it’s fair game.

    #105720
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Or, to quote from the classics:

    “Could easily be redressed as a blacksmith’s shop!”
    “You what?”
    “Well, maybe Arthur Scargill’s father was a blacksmith!”
    “He wasn’t!”
    “Yes, but it doesn’t say that in the *script*!”

    #105721
    Petetranterssister
    Participant

    lol little smegger your response has friend my brain i think!

    xxxxxxxxxx

    #105728
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >Optional downloadable commentaries can?t be taken as an official answer, though – it can be the writer?s intent, but if it?s not denied onscreen, then it?s fair game.

    What if it wasn’t confirmed on screen? I mean coincidences happen, a race of Cybermen were created in our universe on our twin planet Mondas yet in another universe another race of Cybermen were created on an alternative earth and that universe was then linked to ours, a very big coincidence there so Jack having the same name as a head in a jar wouldn’t be very strange. I don’t think we know enough for or against Jack as Boe right now, I don’t think we ever will, it was just a throwaway line/joke.

    #105730
    littlesmegger
    Participant

    > She says ?Think of what the Face of Boe said?? while standing next to Jack who doesn?t even react.

    Well Jack wouldn’t be aware of Boe’s future… but Boe would be aware of Jack’s past. So he’ll remember discussing his childhood with the Doctor, and when it occured and what was going on at the time.

    So the fact Jack isn’t aware, doesn’t mean he isn’t Boe.

    > lol little smegger your response has fried my brain i think!

    so did mine, and I wrote the damn thing!

    #105731
    Jo
    Participant

    >I mean coincidences happen

    In life coincidences happen.
    You think RTD wrote that line not realising the connection? Oh look! What a coincidence I just implied that Jack is the Face of Boe, I hadn’t realised, silly me! If there was no connection there’d be no point including the line in the script, it wasn’t essential to the plot.

    #105733
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >You think RTD wrote that line not realising the connection?

    I think he written it to add a little joke to the end. Besides how the hell is Jack meant to turn into a big face in a jar and then die? He can’t die, he is a fixed point in time, if his head was cut of then his body would slowly grow back (like in COE when he grew all his skin back).

    #105734
    ori-STUDFARM
    Participant

    It’s not Jack. The face of Bo is Bo Diddley!

    #105735
    Andrew
    Participant

    > So the fact Jack isn?t aware, doesn?t mean he isn?t Boe.

    No – but it does mean RTD was making it up as he went along. Someone in the room says they’ve been talking to someone with your – massively unusual – name and you don’t so much as blink? Then you, concidentally, tell them how you got that name a few days later as if they’ve not heard the name before? Come on…

    > I think he written it to add a little joke to the end. Besides how the hell is Jack meant to turn into a big face in a jar and then die?

    The dialogue is specifically about the way his body WILL change. He’s aging, altering, despite the immortality. So just as The Doctor would age into a tiny version of himself, apparently, so Jack won’t simply stay Jack-shaped. That the final shape might be a big head is both in-keeping with the RTD Whoniverse, and specifically hinted at in the dialogue.

    So. The evidence for is dialogue and revelation that matches the way other info is revealed in fictional drama, and specifically in this show. Plus prescident in the episodes for the kind of change being implied. The evidence against is…what? That it’s possible that it’s a coincidence if a future writer wants it to be? (Which is like saying that we can’t assume that Rose isn’t an alien, since she’s not been explictly dissected on-screen and a new writer could reveal her to be one.)

    #105737
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >No – but it does mean RTD was making it up as he went along. Someone in the room says they?ve been talking to someone with your – massively unusual – name and you don?t so much as blink? Then you, concidentally, tell them how you got that name a few days later as if they?ve not heard the name before? Come on?

    This. Obviously, this.

    #105739
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >He?s aging, altering, despite the immortality

    He is also dying despite the immortality.

    #105742
    Andrew
    Participant

    I’m also unsure how telling an audience that Jack is FoB in dialogue that goes un-contradicted works as a joke. “Hey, let’s fake a story revelation – it’ll be hilarious! Maybe next we can imply that Jack is Gwen’s dad and never prove otherwise, that’ll be funny.”

    RTD clearly realised that, irresistable or not, this turned out to be a duff idea. But his commentary doesn’t deny it as canon, and the script explicitly makes it so.

    #105745
    Andrew
    Participant

    > He is also dying despite the immortality.

    But immortality is just what we call it. Fixed point in time, if you prefer, suggests he’ll only die when he’s meant to, as per the use of the same phrase in Fires of Pompeii and Waters of Mars.

    The REAL reason, of course, is more RTD tap-dancing. How could The Doctor meet FoB in episodes before Jack is resurrected by the Doc’s involvement? Of course the science doesn’t track – what RTD/Who science does? – but the storytelling is totally by the book.

    #105746
    JamesTC
    Participant

    As I say I haven’t listened to the commentary, I haven’t even listened to the DVD commentary (and I doubt I ever will, much better stories waiting for a listen) but it says this on Wikipedia –
    “In the episode’s commentary, writer Russell T Davies called the implication of Jack’s nickname (“the Face of Boe”) “a theory” as to the Face of Boe’s origins, prompting Executive Producer Julie Gardner to urge him to “stop back-pedalling” about the two characters being the same. Davies then mentioned the addition of a line in “Gridlock” in which the Face of Boe calls the Doctor “old friend”, suggesting a strong connection between him and the Doctor.”

    #105747
    Andrew
    Participant

    So it’s acknowledged that what’s confirmed in the episode is just being back-pedalled with Davis’ commentary (like I said, latter regret which doesn’t alter episode content). And it’s clarified that them being old friends was added specifically to suit the Jack reveal.

    Same old case: post-reveal there’s no canon content to refute what was stated. Davies ackowledges it CAN be refuted, which is true of anything. So: Rose is an alien and the Doctor doesn’t actually regerate. If it can be theorised, it counts, apparently.

    #105748
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Rose is the Rani.

    And don’t be crazy, the Doctor can regenerate, if he couldn’t then the theory of him being the Rani couldn’t be true and as we all know, the Doctor IS the Rani.

    I heard a rumour that Ianto is the Rani and that he has regenerated into Jack who is laos the Rani and that actually all that time Jack was going out with himself, I mean I don’t know how we didn’t realise before.

    Oh and you are the Rani.

    #105751
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Oh and you are the Rani.

    It would certainly explain my life’s piss-poor storyline…

    #105752
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    Rani is the Rani!

    #105770
    Andrew
    Participant

    Just watching CoE again. Ianto’s just died. Should I be posting hysterical crap about Davies being homophobic on the internet now? Or should I just read this and get some sense of perspective?

    http://www.afterelton.com/TV/2009/7/russeltdavies

    (The governmental debate over the selection of which ‘units’ to give to the 456 is just brilliant. I can’t imagine it was written without someone in the room bringing up the BBC/HBO film Conspiracy. “What else are league tables for?”)

    Oh. Episode five’s coming up. Suspect the buzz will be wearing off shortly…

    #105771
    JamesTC
    Participant

    I really didn’t expect Ianto to die, even with the rumours floating about, I even made a post on here saying something like “I doubt they would kill Ianto” the day before. It was a very good moment, no quick fix with bad sci-fi to save someone, just a death, a great moment and a great end for the character.
    After episode 5 though I kind of wish Ianto returned as a zombie and used his magic zombie powers to save the day.

    #105772
    JamesTC
    Participant

    One thing I don’t understand is that people were angry after and wanted them to bring Ianto back to life, I really don’t understand why they would want that to happen, makes me wonder what will happen after ‘The End of Time’ at the end of this year, tens of people campaigning for RTD’s head until the Doctor unregenerates into David.

    #105774
    Andrew
    Participant

    Well, there it was. With 17 minutes to go, and following the fucking brilliant stuff with Capaldi killing his family, things get ballsed up with a nonsensical load of “reverse the polarity” bolllocks. Iantos’s death was a bit more arbitrary than the drama needed, but frying the kid is still just…limp. Gah!

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