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  • #2718
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_television_series_cancelled_after_one_episode

    The top entry for ‘Australia’s naughiest home videos’ is really rather fantastic :)

    #87991
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Bizarrely, I just read a recently-dredged-up thread on NOTBBC about Heil Honey I’m Home, and then came here.

    #87994
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    That was the programme that sprung to my mind when I hit the link…

    #87995
    Phil
    Participant

    No love for The Merrill Howard Kalin Show, in which a mentally retarded chef teaches you how to make Jello and open a box of stuffing while also performing impressions of Jimmy Stewart, Raquel Welch and Porky Pig?

    #88005
    peas_and_corn
    Participant

    >The top entry for ?Australia?s naughiest home videos? is really rather fantastic :)

    This was always given as an example of Packer’s hands-on approach to running his station, and is given as the reason why it was the no.1 station for so long.

    >It was shown in a repackaged version on August 28, 2008

    Of course, now that he’s not running it any more, the station has gone to shit, and this is the best example I can think of that shows just how far down hill it really is.

    harsh Realm was cancelled after three episodes, and that was a real shame :(

    #88008
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    That was the Chris Carter show wasn’t it? I was really looking forward to that one too. I wouldn’t actually mind seeing how offensive “Heil Honey” actually was either.

    #88009
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    K9 and Company.

    #88010
    TheLeen
    Participant

    > Heil Honey I?m Home

    OMG.

    #88012
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    K9 And Company wasn’t cancelled. It just got lost in the shuffle during the change that happened in the BBC at the time.

    #88013
    pfm
    Participant

    I’m guessing Spike Milligan wouldn’t be thought of as fondly now if the whole of The Melting Pot series had been shown.

    #88014
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    He probably would have come through it okay. Didn’t Peter Sellers do something along those lines too?

    #88015
    Ridley
    Participant

    I wouldn?t actually mind seeing how offensive ?Heil Honey? actually was either.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbj9otRPdiM

    #88016
    Squeaky Gibson
    Participant

    >K9 And Company wasn?t cancelled. It just got lost in the shuffle during the change that happened in the BBC at the time.

    Yeah and it returned many years later as The Sarah Jane Adventures, but with its lead character reduced to a cameo role.

    #88019
    Danny Stephenson
    Keymaster

    Heil Honey I?m Home

    OMG.

    Yes. I know.

    #88020
    Phil
    Participant

    >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbj9otRPdiM

    I made it four minutes into that. (It sucked.)

    #88021
    ChrisM
    Participant

    >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbj9otRPdiM

    I made it four minutes into that. (It sucked.)

    Indeed. Vacuum on, erm, supersuck. (I only got a few minutes in as well.)

    #88022
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    The thing about Heil Honey is that it’s a great idea for a sketch. It might even have made it as a one-off episode as part of a wider series of one-off episodes.

    But how anyone thought it would EVER stretch to AN ENTIRE SERIES is just… baffling.

    It’s certainly not particularly offensive (at least, if you find it offensive, then you must also be offended by The Producers, in which case you’re not worth bothering with. It’s not a comedy about Hitler, it’s a satire of old-style US sitcoms), but it’s basically just ONE JOKE. Walliams and Lucas did pretty much the same thing as a sketch on their Mash & Peas show. Who the heck thought it was a strong enough gag upon which to hinge TWELVE EPISODES?

    #88026
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    Cheers Ridley

    #88030
    pfm
    Participant

    > Who the heck thought it was a strong enough gag upon which to hinge TWELVE EPISODES?

    Wacko Jacko.

    #88031
    TheLeen
    Participant

    > It?s not a comedy about Hitler, it?s a satire of old-style US sitcoms

    Maybe that is exactly WHY it is seen as particularly offensive (dangerously trivialising) by some.

    I haven’t seen it, but comedies using nazi themes so casually always make me feel uneasy. I mean it mostly is the “casual” bit that makes me feel uneasy. More precisely, people calling themselves “EvaPrawn” posting this with the comment “A Nazi sitcom ENJOY” maked me cringe.

    #88034
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Hmm. I guess it’s a different perspective when you’re actually from Germany, but… well, what do you reckon to The Producers, as the obvious comparative example?

    #88038
    TheLeen
    Participant

    Can’t say – I never heard of it :)

    I know that Hitler is popular laughing stock in the UK and that’s fine with me (German comedy has only recently – the past ten years, maybe – begun to joke more about him as well). But there’s a difference between mocking someone (e.g. Hitler peeking around the corner in order to show that this is really hell, not heaven) and trivialising something (e.g. Hitler “somehow just didn’t get on with his Jewish neighbour”). There was nothing trivial about the Holocaust – when Hitler really would have expropriated, enslaved and slowly murdered his Jewish neighbour in a number of most horrible and degrading ways. (I had to add that, I was brought up that way.)

    I think it really is the German perspective – there’s things that are just unthinkable here; for instance something I’ve seen in America: “I love WWII, it’s my favourite hobby, I collect everything to do with WWII”. Uhm, wtf? How can you even use the words “love” and “war” in the same sentence? It’s like saying “I love everything to do with domestic violence”…

    #88039
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    *Wonders if Motorhead sell any records in Germany*

    #88040
    TheLeen
    Participant

    They do.

    #88041
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    Interesting stuff, Marleen. I think the difference between our countries’ cultural views of Hitler stems a long way back – to the war itself. Right from the start, a lot of the British and American propaganda was based around taking the piss out of Hitler. If you make him seem ridiculous, petty, flawed and cartoonish, it makes him less of a threat.

    Obviously, we know that in reality, he was a terrible man, and his actions should be treated very seriously indeed. But culturally speaking, Hitler as a joke figure is still deeply engrained into our national conciousness – even though we know he did despicable, unbelievable, disgusting things, the image that pops into my head is a silly, short man, with stupid hair, a Charlie Chaplin moustache and only one bollock. It doesn’t mean I think his actions were silly and trivial, but 70 years of that image is hard to shift.

    I completely understand why Germans find it so abhorrent to laugh at Hitler, and it does actually make a lot more sense than the British way. When such a horrible dictatorship is still so fresh in the memory, there’s never going to be any leeway. Nor should there be. Heil Honey I’m Home, The Producers, Der Fuehrer’s Face, the fucking Dad’s Army theme tune, etc, shouldn’t offend any right-thinking British person, but I completely understand why a right-thinking German person would have doubts.

    Incidentally, Marleen, I would be incredibly interested to see your thoughts on a couple of episodes of Dad’s Army!

    #88042
    Tanya Jones
    Participant

    Or ‘Allo ‘Allo…!

    #88043
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    Ooh, while I’m busy spouting bollocks theories about these things…

    for instance something I?ve seen in America: ?I love WWII, it?s my favourite hobby, I collect everything to do with WWII?. Uhm, wtf? How can you even use the words ?love? and ?war? in the same sentence? It?s like saying ?I love everything to do with domestic violence??

    I agree that using the phrase “I love WWII” would be a fucking stupid thing to do, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with taking an interest in it. As someone who was born more than 40 years after VE Day, I find a lot of things connected to the war absolutely fascinating – the posters, rationing, shelters, evacuation, the speeches (on both sides, as it happens), etc. It doesn’t mean I wouldn’t rather the whole thing hadn’t happened, but I don’t see much wrong with listing its study as a hobby.

    Maybe it’s the fact that the Americans have had many other conflicts since – Vietnam, Cold War, Iraq x2, Afghanistan – that makes it seem somehow more distant than it is for Germans. Also – and I sincerely apologises if this causes offence, because I’ve been trying for ten minutes to make this sound less glib – maybe it’s the fact that the British and Americans were the “goodies” in WWII that makes it easier for use to face it.

    #88044
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    Ultimately aren’t we only the “goodies” because we ended up on the victorious side? Obviously I’m not trying to appease any Nazis here, but the moment I read that sentence above Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki sprung to mind. Regardless of circumstance it’s hard to ever think of such acts as anything but abhorrent.

    #88045
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    Oh and of course,

    “Hans… are we the baddies?”

    #88047
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    > Ultimately aren?t we only the ?goodies? because we ended up on the victorious side?

    Well, no, simply speaking we were the goodies because our reasons for war were to stop aggressive invading forces on the behalf of other countries. Horrible things were done on both sides during the war, but it was the ultimate goals of each side that define whether they were ‘good’ or ‘bad’.

    #88048
    TheLeen
    Participant

    No, that’s fine, I thought something along those lines but forgot to type it:

    For you allies-folks, WWII has made heroes. For us axis-offspring, there’s nothing but shame in it. Not that I identify myself in any way with what any ancestors of mine might’ve done (and as far as I know, my family actually spent the entire duration of WWII in an African internment camp). That would make a significant difference. And thinking of the German resistance, all those names of young people, it doesn’t make me feel patriotic. It only makes me feel horrified and sad. But then, we don’t do the patriotic hero thing in Germany anyway. We name streets after them and teach children how hirrifying and sad the entire affair was (with more or less success) and that’s that. No fourth of July, no poppy day, and sure as hell no waving German flags around, except if you’re a government building, or if you’re in the middle of footie world championship.

    When I think of Hitler, I first think of the monster he was (and his helpers, and half the citizens, and so on), and when I see a joke featuring Hitler, the first thing my brain does is ask “is this in poor taste?” and THEN I laugh (sometimes). And then I go back to asking myself the taste question. It’s probably for the best that Germans (or, intellectual Germans) are, in this regard, stiff as poker. Someone should be. So that everyone else can have a laugh.

    And Ian, I think there’s nothing wrong with a scientific or historic interest in weapons, wars or a particular war. I just don’t see how anyone with a working brain can bring themselves to call a war “awesome”, which I’ve seen in the US and later on the internet on so many occasions. But they also teach “American history” and “history… somewhere else” as different subjects in schools, can’t tell the difference between a nazi and a communist and think that the US civil war classifies as a childrens’ hobby instead of a major tragedy. All of this is just very, very strange to liberal pacifist little me. On the other hand side I’m probably no better, finding antique weapons to be romantic and decorative, when they were made to kill or mutilate people just as much as something unromantic and wrong as a tank or H-Bomb. (I know they say that man-to-man combat is somehow more honourable than weapons of mass distruction, but are they really? Or aren’t they really just the same thing but less effective?) Or why do I feel bad about modern day military, but not about knights in shiny armour, and neither space type science fiction, which is almost exclusively military-based? Anyway…

    So there, some German viewpoints for your reading pleasure ^^

    I’d be happy to watch any nazi comedies for you if you want, but someone would have to send me recordings on tape (that’s legal, yes?). I want to try and buy less stuff this year. And I don’t really want to buy WWII stuff. Except when it’s part of Father Ted and frickin’ hilarious.

    #88049
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    And Ian, I think there?s nothing wrong with a scientific or historic interest in weapons, wars or a particular war. I just don?t see how anyone with a working brain can bring themselves to call a war ?awesome?, which I?ve seen in the US and later on the internet on so many occasions. But they also teach ?American history? and ?history? somewhere else? as different subjects in schools, can?t tell the difference between a nazi and a communist and think that the US civil war classifies as a childrens? hobby instead of a major tragedy. All of this is just very, very strange to liberal pacifist little me. On the other hand side I?m probably no better, finding antique weapons to be romantic and decorative, when they were made to kill or mutilate people just as much as something unromantic and wrong as a tank or H-Bomb. (I know they say that man-to-man combat is somehow more honourable than weapons of mass distruction, but are they really? Or aren?t they really just the same thing but less effective?) Or why do I feel bad about modern day military, but not about knights in shiny armour, and neither space type science fiction, which is almost exclusively military-based? Anyway?

    I completely and utterly agree with every word of this. Hooray!

    And yes, “goodies” was completely the wrong word to use, but as Cappsy pointed out, no matter what shitty methods the allies used to win, their purpose was to stop the Nazis from taking over the world. Which is better than being a Nazi, anyway.

    Also, glad you mentioned Father Ted, Marleen – I forgot to put that in my list of potentially troublesome comedies. I remember being a bit concerned by the shot of Jack dressed as an SS guard, and that comes from someone who knows about four different versions of Hitler Has Only Got One Ball.

    #88050
    JamesTC
    Participant

    I think Heil Honey I’m Home would have had an audience, no matter how controversial, infact it could have been the controversial aspect that attracted people. One major problem I feel is that it attracts the wrong audience, it attracts people who talk like “roflmao hitler is so cool” when it really had jokes in the first episode that were quite intelligent yet they would be lost if it did get an audience on these idiots who watch it just because others don’t like it.
    I do understand it is controversial but I did find it funny, not laugh a minute but still funny. Saying that I am glad it didn’t get made because inevitably it would attract the wrong audience which would just begin to make Nazi’s look “cool” to certain people.
    If you have seen some of the pieces in newspapers in the 1930s it is obvious that Hitler was a thing to poke fun at, this was a modernisation of that, the thing is when they were poking fun in the 1930s the horrors of the war were not apparent.

    #88051
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Should you also include Red Dwarf? “You’re good friends with the Hitlers?” as well as his special guest appearance in ‘Time Slides’

    #88052
    TheLeen
    Participant

    > I remember being a bit concerned by the shot of Jack dressed as an SS guard,

    I’d have to re-watch the episode… but anyway, the nazi stuff was understood to be bad. It was used in the episode BECAUSE it is bad. So it does get the point across, despite the humour, and so I don’t have a general problem with it. But I don’t remember all the details.

    > Should you also include Red Dwarf? ?You?re good friends with the Hitlers??

    Here, too, that line is only there because it’s the most horrible people they could think of one could be friends with. So, it’s implicitely critising. Heil Honey I’m Home is… just “cute”.

    > as well as his special guest appearance in ?Time Slides?

    Don’t really think this is an issue at all as it was just showing facts, not prtrying Hitler as loving family man or whatever.

    #88056
    Dave
    Participant

    >How can you even use the words ?love? and ?war? in the same sentence?
    All’s fair in …. and …

    >It?s like saying ?I love everything to do with domestic violence??
    Fair point.

    >?You?re good friends with the Hitlers??
    Oh, we don’t talk about his work.

    I remember watching one of those rare documentaries on Channel 5 about Hitler, and a section was devoted to his impact on popular culture. There was a German model talking about her surprise at how often we talk about him. She used the phrase “Hitler’s on TV here every night” and she’s right. I don’t mean endless repeats of Hitler’s Secret Insert Word on some satellite TV station, I mean he is mentioned on UK terrestrial TV somehow every single night. Give or take. We’re obsessed.

    He may well be Germany’s most prolific export.

    #88057
    Andrew
    Participant

    > I just don?t see how anyone with a working brain can bring themselves to call a war ?awesome?, which I?ve seen in the US and later on the internet on so many occasions.

    I think you have to separate out the way people talk about things from their actual deeper feelings. On the internet especially the moron quotient is incredibly high. I’ve been using this example a lot lately, but AICN recently printed a review of The Spirit that included the phrase “My friend turned to me after the screening and said ‘Now I know what it feels like to be raped’. And he was right.”

    It’s the bad side of geek, this referencing of terms and issues without careful, considerate handling. Of being so distanced from something terrible – either by not living quite so much in the real world, or by living in it but not thinking too deeply about it – that terms like “That war’s so awesome” slip out. It’s a “like a child who doesn’t know better” thing.

    In the case of WWII, obviously most ‘fans’ (ugh) mean is that – in what they’ve read and seen – the imagery, iconography, and the stories speak to them on some gut level. It doesn’t speak to me, but I get it. (Clearly it speaks to Spielberg, and to Bryan Singer.) For the most part the interest is aesthetic, stylistic – they’re just articulating it like an idiot.

    #88058
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Heil Honey I?m Home is? just ?cute?.

    Well, it’s mocking us, too, isn’t it? The way we’ve appropriated Hitler as a comic figure? It’s satirising our trivialising of the man – who, as Ian said, has been a constant figure of comedy. (Not least in Chaplin’s own The Great Dictator.) It’s not just a joke about Hitler, it’s a dig at our own decision to place him in a certain position within the popular culture.

    #88061
    TheLeen
    Participant

    > terms like ?That war?s so awesome? slip out. It?s a ?like a child who doesn?t know better? thing.

    I know, I know. Idiots are everywhere. What I critisise American culture as a whole for is that people over there aren’t typically told to shut the fuck up and think about what they just said, and brought up in a way that allows them to develop a different gut feeling. (Based on my personal experience. I know that not all Americans are like that.)

    > For the most part the interest is aesthetic, stylistic

    I’m guilty of that, too (see above: science fiction) but for my guts, it makes a VAST difference whether it’s about a fictional war (like… Lord of the Rings) or one that actually happened. Can’t people concentrate their need for style and aesthetics of archaic testosterone feasts on “save”, fictional stuff and keep feeling very bad about real tragedies? It might make the world a better place…

    > it?s a dig at our own decision to place him in a certain position within the popular culture.

    While I can’t disprove this, it is not apparent enough to me. I don’t see it. If it is, it should have been made more obvious.

    > (Not least in Chaplin?s own The Great Dictator.)

    The Great Dictator was made in 1939, even before all the horrible third reich details came to light. It was critisising nazi Germany while it was at its height. It was a slap in Hitler’s face. It was a very dangerous thing to do. The one thing it was not: casual entertainment.

    #88067
    Andrew
    Participant

    > What I critisise American culture as a whole for is that people over there aren?t typically told to shut the fuck up and think about what they just said

    Being bad at expressing yourself isn’t limited to Americans!

    > Can?t people concentrate their need for style and aesthetics of archaic testosterone feasts on ?save?, fictional stuff

    “Why are people allowed their own tastes?” Seriously? Cos that’s a little right-wing for me!

    You can’t condemn everyone for interests that speak to them. Not if they’re harmless in the way they go about it. ‘A war’ isn’t a complete entity, it’s composed of billions of cultural and personal aspects. Some people’s favourite book is Anne Frank’s diary. Is that wrong? Is appreciating military uniform design only okay if it’s for a winning side who DIDN’T go to actual war? Is it really fair enough to condemn historical battle recreation people? Who are they hurting?

    Plus – where did the Lord of the Rings stuff come from? Or the Star Wars stormtroopers? These are aspects of fiction taken from existing aesthetics, from real historical conflicts. Without someone appreciating, on some level, those qualities in the real world, you wouldn’t get them in fiction in the first place.

    My policy is live and let live. Being interested in a bad thing that happened isn’t the same as wanting it to happen again. I’m a bit of a Ripperologist. Doesn’t mean I think it’s okay to murder prostitutes. What you’re saying is “Please stop, and just be interested in Hannibal Lecter instead.”

    >> it?s a dig at our own decision to place him in a certain position within the popular culture.

    > While I can?t disprove this, it is not apparent enough to me. I don?t see it. If it is, it should have been made more obvious.

    More obvious than a fictionalised caption at the start saying this was a sitcom pulled from the archive? It’s a comedy about how we make comedy. About how, one day, an executive pitched a Hitler-com and it got taken up. I’m not saying it’s a great piece of TV, or that it makes its points especially well, but the very first thing you see is a big sign explaining the extra layer. And the applause track, writing style and set design go on to reinforce the same point – that it’s not ‘Hitler in a comedy’ it’s ‘an actor playing Hitler in a comedy’.

    > The one thing it was not: casual entertainment.

    Didn’t say it was. Just said it was part of the ‘Hitler as comedy figure’ history.

    That said, though, it WAS entertainment. It was financed for profit, made for laughs as well as political intent. Who decides if something’s casual or well-intentioned? You can’t believe that the makers of Heil Honey just went ahead without thinking about what they were doing. “It didn’t work” is fine; “You shouldn’t be allowed to make this” I have a problem with.

    #88069
    Phil
    Participant

    >Being bad at expressing yourself isn?t limited to Americans!

    I’m going to frame this, as it’s likely to be the only time I hear it on this site.

    #88070
    pfm
    Participant

    Don’t forget that it’s not just Hitler who’s a comedy figure for us Brits, it’s the whole German nation! Sunbeds and efficiency spring to mind… People still use ‘Kraut’, my dad without fail will say something like ‘oh, we’re playing the Nazis, we better watch out’ if there’s an England Germany game. It’s fucking ridiculous.

    Even Alan Partridge tries to lighten the mood with a ‘Nazi voice’.

    #88072
    TheLeen
    Participant

    >> What I critisise American culture as a whole for is that people over there aren?t typically told to shut the fuck up and think about what they just said

    > Being bad at expressing yourself isn?t limited to Americans!

    I know. I said up there that this is based on my personal observations though. So, neither representative nor conclusive.

    > You can?t condemn everyone for interests that speak to them.

    > Plus – where did the Lord of the Rings stuff come from? Or the Star Wars
    > stormtroopers? These are aspects of fiction taken from existing aesthetics,
    > from real historical conflicts. Without someone appreciating, on some level,
    > those qualities in the real world, you wouldn?t get them in fiction in the
    > first place.

    > My policy is live and let live. Being interested in a bad thing that happened
    > isn?t the same as wanting it to happen again. I?m a bit of a Ripperologist.
    > Doesn?t mean I think it?s okay to murder prostitutes. What you?re saying is
    > ?Please stop, and just be interested in Hannibal Lecter instead.?

    I have no problem with people being interested in stuff that really happened.

    “The aesthetics appeal to me” is another way od saying “I find this pretty”. It’s the positive connotation that bothers me.
    (Like I, myself, find a crossbow pretty, and sometimes feel I shouldn’t.)

    Do you admire the way in which the whitechapel prostitutes were cut open for its precision? I hope not :P

    >>> it?s a dig at our own decision to place him in a certain position within the popular culture.

    >> While I can?t disprove this, it is not apparent enough to me. I don?t see it. If it is, it should have been made more obvious.

    > More obvious than a fictionalised caption at the start saying this was a sitcom pulled from the archive?

    Point taken…

    >> The one thing it was not: casual entertainment.

    > Didn?t say it was. Just said it was part of the ?Hitler as comedy figure?
    > history.

    I know. I was using your example to elaborate on my earlier point…

    > That said, though, it WAS entertainment. It was financed for profit, made for
    > laughs as well as political intent. Who decides if something?s casual or
    > well-intentioned? You can?t believe that the makers of Heil Honey just went
    > ahead without thinking about what they were doing. ?It didn?t work? is fine;

    As far as I know (from memory – I’ve seen a documentary or two year ago – I may be wrong but I don’t think so), Chaplin was actually aware that he his and his family’s lives in danger there. Yes, it is ALSO a comedy, but never “casually” so. Because it’s a political satire in the first place, and if it wasn’t, it would be very unreasonable (let’s say, fucking crazy) to risk your life for it.

    > ?You shouldn?t be allowed to make this? I have a problem with.

    And I didn’t say that :)

    #88073
    Andrew
    Participant

    > ?The aesthetics appeal to me? is another way od saying ?I find this pretty?.

    I don’t think it is, actually. The Scream isn’t ‘pretty’ to anyone, is it? HR Giger’s artwork? Goya?

    People find value in the repulsive all the time. We like horror movies. We enjoy films that make us cry. Being left saddened, unsettled, even damaged in some other way…these are appreciable factors without straight-on endorsing the events being shown. I love the photography in Schlinder’s List. But I’d never call it pretty. Beautiful, in its way, though – yes.

    > Do you admire the way in which the whitechapel prostitutes were cut open for its precision? I hope not :P

    No. But am I fascinated by the culture of the time, the birth of tabloid tradition, the languages, the clashes of humanity? Yes. Because ‘things of the time relating to the murders’ aren’t ‘the murders’, just as artwork, outfits and writing during wartime aren’t ‘the war’.

    Who designs flags? Who design uniforms? Creative people. Motive or not, historical icon or not, the design can be appreciated separate from the use. (The swastika being an appropriated and once-positive symbol, after all; though given its angles and lines that always seemed counter-intuitive to me.)

    Put another way: does a good pop song become harder to appreciate when, years later, the singer is locked up for pedophilia? Yes, but the song itself hasn’t changed – and finding your toe tapping to it doesn’t make you an endorser of that man’s actions.

    > Chaplin was actually aware that he his and his family?s lives in danger there. Yes, it is ALSO a comedy, but never ?casually? so.

    I say again, though – who says Heil Honey’s use was casual? Look up Geoff Atkinson – Punch, Spitting Image, Vera Productions, Mark Thomas. Does this strike you as a man who unthinkingly utilises these things for a cheap laugh?

    #88076
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    > I?m going to frame this, as it?s likely to be the only time I hear it on this site.

    Is American bashing something that goes on a lot on this site, then? Cos, I must’ve missed it…

    #88078
    Phil
    Participant

    >Is American bashing something that goes on a lot on this site, then? Cos, I must?ve missed it?

    I think someone once implied I wasn’t as good looking as I really am. Anti-Americanism is the only rational explanation.

    #88079
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    > I think someone once implied I wasn?t as good looking as I really am. Anti-Americanism is the only rational explanation.

    Shut it, fugly.

    #88088
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > Well, no, simply speaking we were the goodies because our reasons for war were to stop aggressive invading forces on the behalf of other countries. Horrible things were done on both sides during the war, but it was the ultimate goals of each side that define whether they were ?good? or ?bad?.

    Point taken and you’re right.

    I’ve just typed out and deleted several paragraphs trying to find the correct words. Perhaps it’s just me, I find it incredibly hard to think about such large scale conflict in such black and white terms as ‘good’ and ‘bad’. I get wrapped up in thoughts about the foot soldiers. Those who actually pull triggers and launch bombs and exactly where blame and guilt lies in such situations. That’s not to refute or in anyway sympathise with the obvious evil doers.

    Another horrible irony of war is of course the sheer volumn of scientific and medical advances that humanity makes during those times.

    I do love the points Andrew has made about the creative people involved at such times. I had never really considered those before. Only a few weeks ago I found myself in a military antique and clothing shop in Wolverhampton. The whole time feeling somewhat conflicted between a fascination with certain designs and the uncomfortableness at the idea of getting any kind of kick from such a horrible period of human history. It always does seem odd when someone describes themself as a “ ethusiast”

    #88092
    Andrew
    Participant

    > I find it incredibly hard to think about such large scale conflict in such black and white terms as ?good? and ?bad?.

    I think this is absolutely right. I’ve never trusted anyone who uses the term ‘evil’, because it seems designed to simplify life rather than to address its complexities. Not every Nazi soldier was a fundamentally bad person. Not every British soldier is a heroic guy. But it’s hard to talk this way without igniting serious ire, because it’s easier to keep things simple. We sleep better that way.

    (In fact it’s this embracing of complexity which first endeared me to Obama. Miles away from the binary thinking of Bush, it’s arguably less powerful as rhetoric, but so much more about ‘real life’.)

    #88115
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > I think this is absolutely right. I?ve never trusted anyone who uses the term ?evil?, because it seems designed to simplify life rather than to address its complexities.

    You don’t trust me! *sobs* Being more serious I don’t have too much of a problem using it to describe a tyrant like Hitler or Saddam Hussain for me it’s where the line of ‘evil’ stops? Where down the chain of command do we cross over into that ‘not fundamentally bad person’?

    #88119
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    >How can you even use the words ?love? and ?war? in the same sentence?
    All?s fair in ?. and ?

    “You know what they say about love and war.”
    “Yeah, one involves a lot of physical and psychological torture, and the other one’s… war.”

    I?ve been using this example a lot lately, but AICN recently printed a review of The Spirit that included the phrase ?My friend turned to me after the screening and said ?Now I know what it feels like to be raped?. And he was right.?

    Oh, thanks, now I want to punch something. Fucking AICN.

    I just don?t see how anyone with a working brain can bring themselves to call a war ?awesome?, which I?ve seen in the US and later on the internet on so many occasions.

    Interesting choice of word, since although you’re undeniably right about how ridiculous it is that it might get used in its modern context (that is, a synonym for “brilliant”), but its original meaning of “inspiring awe or terror” is actually rather appropriate for describing a war…

    Since you’ve never heard of The Producers (unsurprising, as it’s banned in Germany), it’s a 1960s Mel Brooks comedy (subsequently made into a smash hit Broadway musical in the early 2000s and consequently a musical movie remake in 2005) about two guys (one a scheming but down-on-his-luck theatrical producer, one a well-meaning but neurotic accountant) who come up with a scheme to put on the worst play ever produced, so that they can raise a huge amount of backers’ money but never have to pay it back. The play that they find is a love-letter to Hitler written by a former Nazi sergeant, called “Springtime for Hitler” – which, with the help of a flamboyant and awful director and a stoner hippie actor, they turn into a musical – which then unintentionally becomes a smash hit.

    It’s one of the greatest comedy films of all time, but I can see how it might be offensive to someone such as yourself raised with different attitudes to the portrayal of Hitler and the Nazis in fiction; on the other hand, it’s worth remembering that Brooks himself is Jewish, and his attitude towards making the film was that ridiculing Hitler was, as a comedian, about the only way he could attack him. He said that “If you stand on a soapbox and trade rhetoric with a dictator you never win…That’s what they do so well: they seduce people. But if you ridicule them, bring them down with laughter, they can’t win. You show how crazy they are.”

    Of course, within the context film itself, the two producers are trying to make something deliberately distasteful. They choose the play precisely because people will get offended by it (this was 1968, so less than 25 years after the war ended). Like with Heil Honey, it’s not even really about poking fun at Hitler – it’s about using Hitler as a way of poking fun at something else.

    Anyway, if you’re interested (and… prepare yourself), here’s the film’s centrepiece – the musical number “Springtime for Hitler” (and if you’re really interested, here’s the longer 2005 version, complete with a certain John Barrowman from 0:45 but nowhere near as good as the original because it’s too overblown)

    Oh, er, and I repeat the standard warning about DO NOT READ YOUTUBE COMMENTS UNLESS YOU FEEL LIKE GOING ON A RAMPAGE

    #88122
    Andrew
    Participant

    ‘Evil’, for me, is an absolute. It belongs to scary religions that need to define things so simply in order to avoid more rational thought. ‘Basically evil, but a good painter and he loved his dog’ doesn’t work for me as a useful description.

    I wasn’t quibbling your use, though, Karl. I mean, it’s a shorthand, right? An exaggeration for the sake of simplicity. It’s when it gets used as a conclusive definition, that I have a problem.

    #88129
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    Oh yeah, no worries. I agree I think. Although this bit “need to define things so simply in order to avoid more rational thought” befits some of the world’s most villainous people doesn’t it?

    #88130
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Although this bit ?need to define things so simply in order to avoid more rational thought? befits some of the world?s most villainous people doesn?t it?

    I meant the TERM belongs to that group, not evilness itself.

    #88154
    Ridley
    Participant

    But culturally speaking, Hitler as a joke figure is still deeply engrained into our national conciousness – even though we know he did despicable, unbelievable, disgusting things, the image that pops into my head is a silly, short man, with stupid hair, a Charlie Chaplin moustache and only one bollock. It doesn?t mean I think his actions were silly and trivial, but 70 years of that image is hard to shift.

    For example:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVxM5IBLeU4

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k7U-_tJVmw

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx_6WekXKcM

    #88163
    TheLeen
    Participant

    All of this is absolutely fascinating and I’ll re-read all of it and click all the links later when I have more time.

    #88219
    pfm
    Participant

    Everyone is so full of hate. Never mind AICN, just hang around here for a while… The world is fueled by hatred, rational or not.

    #88237
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    Oh just fuck off.

    #88261
    James
    Participant

    You had to mention the war didn’t you?

    #88303
    peas_and_corn
    Participant

    So! It’s all forgotten now, and let’s hear no more about it. So, that’s two egg mayonnaise, a prawn Goebbels, a Hermann Goering, and four Colditz salads

    #88433
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Speaking of nazis…. how’s about Zombie nazis?

    Dead Snow- Warning, the clip is rather gorey.

    That clip cracked me up… My sense of humor worries me sometimes.

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