Whats the story with Katerina?

[ori-STUDFARM]

Obviously, Katerina is more than she seems!! The way she first appeared. The way she reappeared. The way she didn’t get sucked towards the portal. She seems obsessed with “offing” Rimmer! Whats the score!

Is she a part of the Squid. Is it polymorphical and taken her form! Is it all an illusion! Is it Rimmers hallucination rebeling against him as in BTL??

Answers on a postcard…….or just enter them here on this thread!!

[Dax101]

maybe its the child born from the dispare squid, from the momment the ink went on them they are all helucinating

chances aint likely but hey

[ori-STUDFARM]

Well they made a point in Ep 1 of showing Rimmer getting the ink on him! I think it will be left at the end with a “was it” or “was it not” a hallucination

[SeeYouAtThePartyRichter]

And why did Cat keep leaving those little gold paper things everywhere? – well, two.

[hummingbird]

Is it me, or is the origami squid shaped?

[ori-STUDFARM]

Looked to me like the Babylon 5 bio-ship thingy’s!

[ChrisM]

>And why did Cat keep leaving those little gold paper things everywhere? – well, two.

Exactly. He looked puzzled when he did it the first time too, did a little shake of the head as if to say “Why did I do that?”

At first I thought it was the ship but it might have been the squid.

My deduction is that it’s all an illusion, probably Katerina included. (Or at least the way she appears in the programme.) Cat is subconsciously aware somehow, just like he was the one who could find the exits in Back In the Red, despite being the dunce-breed of the group. (I.e. it’s another clue it’s all fake.)

Therefore it’s probably another group hallucination brought on by the ink of the squid. However, is it just another despair squid, or is it a squid whose ink affects people a slightly different way? By this I mean, is there another outside force orchestrating all this,(possibly Katarina herself) teleporting the squid into the tank in an attempt so everyone is glouped, perhaps making them subjective, or just immobile? But why such an elaborate plot?

Also, I’m thinking the children were essentially acting as Lister’s subconscious bringing up certain suspicions Lister had concerning Kochanski’s fate. It’s weird that someone would consider Kochanski’s death less of an issue for Lister than her leaving him, but considering Kryten’s poor understanding of human mentality it’s not much of a stretch. Cases in point “Have a fantastic period.” “Your breasts look particularly good Mz.”, etc.

[Dax101]

maybe katrina is the one trying to kill them and she is part of the squid hallucination, almost like a virus

[Carlito]

> And why did Cat keep leaving those little gold paper things everywhere? – well, two.

> Exactly. He looked puzzled when he did it the first time too, did a little shake of the head as if to say ?Why did I do that??

Coupled with Lister suddenly knowing how to read Chinese, obviously things aren’t quite right.

Those with good memories… has any character in Red Dwarf ever been known to speak fleunt Chinese? (Not counting mind-patch Rimmer) or have origami skills??

[ChrisM]

When does Lister read Chinese? That one completely passed me by.

[Nick R]

> Those with good memories? has any character in Red Dwarf ever been known to speak fleunt Chinese?

M’aiden Ty-One? ;)

[Tarka Dal]

Lister reading Chinese
Rimmer talking about when he will be Lord of Star Fleet
Cat making the orgami models
Perhaps even Rimmer killing Katerina all seem a bit out of character. As if the ficitional characters are becoming blurred in the apparently real world.

[Richey]

> Perhaps even Rimmer killing Katerina all seem a bit out of character.

I mentioned this in the comments for Part 2 and got shot down. ‘They established that killing a hologram isn’t murder’ was the party line from fellow fans. But this kind of misses the point entirely for me – it’s the fact that Rimmer is WILLING to do this, that he is suddenly CAPABLE of killing that is out of character. He’s never actually killed anyone in the whole history of Red Dwarf. Even when he talks about being happy to kill the simulant were he sleeping in ‘Justice’, you know he’s just trying to egg Lister on. Put him in a room with a bazookoid and a sleeping simulant and he’d more than likely do a runner rather than risk fucking it up and the simulant living – because Rimmer is a COWARD, not a KILLER/MURDERER.

[ori-STUDFARM]

Although he DID kill the entire crew of Red Dwarf. Okay, it was an accident and Listers fault for not being there to help on the drive plate, but kill them he did :)

[Tarka Dal]

It’s all gone a bit wierd. I absolutely adored the Blade Runner stuff, but it’s SO THICK that I’ve picked up a bit of Ian’s criticism (Dwarfcast spoilers) and now am genuinely intrigued about how they resolve that side of things, and worried as to whether they will.

[Carlito]

> When does Lister read Chinese? That one completely passed me by

On the sign outside the nose casting dude’s shop. And then he wonders aloud how he could suddenly read Chinese.

[Richey]

> Although he DID kill the entire crew of Red Dwarf. Okay, it was an accident and Listers fault for not being there to help on the drive plate, but kill them he did :)

But mate, you know what I’m getting at. They died through Rimmer’s incompetence. He didn’t kill them as in setting out to kill everyone by deliberately causing the drive plate accident. It was exactly that – an accident. And he didn’t murder anybody either. He also carried the guilt of it for the rest of his death. He felt so guilty about it that the justice computer mistook it for culpability. In BTE, he shows no guilt over wasting Katerina – and that’s just out of character, plain and simple.

[ori-STUDFARM]

I know what you mean. I think because shes a hologram, he knows he hasn’t killed her, but yes, did seem a bit harsh

[Carlito]

But she antagonised him, threatened him and justified his own forthcoming actions. I’d say that there’s more to it yet to be revealed. My problem isn’t with Rimmer “killing” her – she’s hard light, thus indestructible, thus probably not dead and Rimmer, being a hologram himself, would know he hasn’t REALLY killed her, just taken her out of the equation for a little while – but rather the lack of reaction from the other characters, Lister especially. Especially as all she has actually done so far is look out for Lister’s interests and help him fulfill his ambition… the only one to have a beef with her is Rimmer. They should be aghast and disgusted; instead they don’t seem to care.

[ori-STUDFARM]

As long as it isn’t some Dallas style Bobby Ewings not dead dream sequence!! That would totally kill it!

[ChrisM]

> When does Lister read Chinese? That one completely passed me by

On the sign outside the nose casting dude?s shop. And then he wonders aloud how he could suddenly read Chinese.

Thanks. That is interesting…

[Phil]

>instead they don?t seem to care.

Are we including Doug in this?

[Mnoooah]

Rimmer not being a killer outright is true, but may I suggest Knott is a reasonable prescedent. By setting up a technicality (predeterminism, hologram) Doug ideally lets him defend himself without looking like a murdering bastard, although I grant it does look pretty rough here. :/

Alternatively, when I watched it the first time I heard a plinking sound and read that as her light bee being bounced down the street. It’s confusing because if she is hard light you would have expected the car to roll over her instead, etc.

[Richey]

Here’s another plot point/characterisation issue that stuck out horribly for me tonight – did nobody else think the idea of Kryten telling Lister that Kochanski was dead if she really wasn’t was also out of character? To lie to that extent – when we’ve seen before that Kryten still struggles with lying unless his behaviour protocols have been disabled – seems utterly bizarre.

And what was all that stuff the kids were saying about Lister drinking himself to death and basically becoming despondent and depressed BEFORE her supposed death? Surely this is how he would become AFTER he learned Kochanski had died? And based on how she was portrayed in series VII and VIII, is it even remotely credible that Kochanski would be the kind of person to do a runner if a friend was falling to pieces and needed help?

[Mnoooah]

> they don’t seem to care.

They do come off as pretty thick so far, they don’t care where she came from, they don’t care too much about being fictional, Dave doesn’t seem to care that Katerina wants to kill Rimmer. The only one to ask a reasonable question so far is Rimmer and he wasn’t that committed to it. I see why some of the critics say the cast looks a bit listless, the characters seem to be too.

[Mnoooah]

>Lister drinking himself to death and basically becoming despondent

Bingo. Wha? I hope there’s a good explanation for this.

[ChrisM]

To lie to that extent – when we?ve seen before that Kryten still struggles with lying unless his behaviour protocols have been disabled – seems utterly bizarre.

I see what you mean, but bear in mind he’d probably had years of experience by that point. He got better at it. It is strange that he would assume Kochanski’s death would be more acceptable than her leaving Lister, but then I put that down to a lack of understanding of human personality. Like the inappropriate things he says from time to time. “Your breasts look good Ms.” as a ‘subtle hint’ to Rimmer that Katarina was behind him for example.

And what was all that stuff the kids were saying about Lister drinking himself to death and basically becoming despondent and depressed BEFORE her supposed death?

I put that down to the despondency and loneliness of living in deep space for so long. Besides, we don’t really know how many adventures they’ve had since series 8 (although there are apparently 2 series worth, but that’d be 16 episodes at most (i.e series being a maximum of eight episodes) within a 9 year period. We don’t know all what happened, and even worse, didn’t happen. There’s long tracts of time off-screen where nothing much happens, and when it does, your life is invariably threatened.

And based on how she was portrayed in series VII and VIII, is it even remotely credible that Kochanski would be the kind of person to do a runner if a friend was falling to pieces and needed help?

No, I agree with you there. She seems very faithful. The only reason why I think she might do it is if a) she found a way back to her Dave in another dimension or b) she felt she was doing Lister a favour (or at least conned herself that were the case when really she couldn’t face seeing him in that state.

There’s just so much we don’t know.

[Richey]

> There?s just so much we don?t know.

Agreed sir. And while your answers to my points are well thought out and perfectly logical, they don’t really cut the mustard for me (if they are in fact the case in the story, I mean). I just don’t think Doug has done himself any favours with this.

[Carlito]

Just a re-post I made earlier that is relevant here…

Could it be that the reason they are acting out of character and bad things are happening seemingly without rhyme or reason is because somebody eeeeevil has sabotaged the writing of the show (kidnapped Doug Naylor?), which will become evident in Pt 3?

And the final battle will be the Dwarfers attempting to remove the evil writer/producer and reinstalling the real world status quo before the eeeeevil writer, having taken perverse pleasure in bringing them to their lowest ebb, has the chance to kill them.

That?s why Kryten pushed Kochanski out of an air lock (assumption), that?s why Lister was miserable and drinking himself to death BEFORE Kochanski died, that?s why Rimmer died AGAIN for the third time, that?s why Holly was destroyed, that?s why they act out of character, that?s why a leviathan and Katerina just popped up out of nowhere and nobody questioned it? in recent times, they have become puppets on the string of an evil writer.

Reminds me a bit of a Charmed episode I saw once?

[Phil]

Maybe they’re stuck in a cycle of acting out bad fan fiction.

[pete martin]That would explain everything.[/pete martin]

[pfm]

Atm I’m sticking with the idea that Kochanski is behind Katerina. This reveal would be the easiest way to restore status quo at the end, basically her going ‘ha ha’ in a Holly/Queeg kind of way, that she’s done it to make Lister appreciate her more and to pay Rimmer back for being a complete bastard.

[ChrisM]

>Atm I?m sticking with the idea that Kochanski is behind Katerina.

I’d quite like that. It’s interesting that both women have the same initials and Russian surnames.

[ChrisM]

Unless you believe that scene in series 1 with ‘CK’ on Kochanski’s holodisk projector. (Why would they put initials on the projector, instead of the disk by the way? Oh never mind, it gets the point across.)

I put the discrepancy down to Red Dwarf personnel being a bit rubbish in checking their spelling. ;)

[hummingbird]

Lister reading Chinese
Rimmer talking about when he will be Lord of Star Fleet
Cat making the orgami models
Perhaps even Rimmer killing Katerina all seem a bit out of character. As if the ficitional characters are becoming blurred in the apparently real world.

This exactly. It *is* out of character for them, but fits with the TV/movies that are being referenced.
Could it be that their characters are somehow being manipulated, or are changing in some way in order to fit in?

[Mnoooah]

>As long as it?s not slash I?ve no objection.

See: Supernatural: the Monster At the End of This Book
http://www.cwtv.com/shows/supernatural/episodes/418

“There’s slash”
“What?”
“Like, with you and me”
“but WE’RE BROTHERS”
“I know.”

[dooky]

>Dave doesn?t seem to care that Katerina wants to kill Rimmer.

Yeah, this seemed slightly off to me, too. Granted, the crew had every reason to be angry with him, but this was the one thing in part 1 that really stuck out as odd.

[SkyAndSun]

EVEN YOUR BRO??!?!

[Mnoooah]

DOOD NO WAY! ;)

[Dax101]

i watched part 2 again and its grown on me a lil, but the dvd part and kids on the bus is just to cringing

even my bro (edited to keep story short) look confused :P

[Dax101]

YESSSS!!!!

An hour to wait to see the final score :P

[Jonsmad]

One last theory from me before I go and rewatch Part 1 and 2 in the lead up to part three. The whole thing is happening in Listers mind after a bad reaction to mutated Tomatoes that he said he was allergic too anyway at the very begining. He’s been drinking too much lager because of the water supply being low and it’s all sent him into a wild drugged out stuper which he awakes from on his bunk where he had been watching blade runner and accuses Kryten about lying about Kochanski.

Failing that, the Kochanski theory that she’s behind it all is sounding likely to me.

[ori-STUDFARM]

So what was Katerina? Who visualised her to give them joy? Lister?

[Richey]

> So what was Katerina?

A plot device.

[Phil]

>Who visualised her to give them joy?

It wasn’t me.

[Dessie]

Rimmer enjoyed killing her.

[ori-STUDFARM]

Lister liked her. he “Liked her a lot!”

[Jonsmad]

Rimmer did because his pyche cant handle joy like in BTL so despite being infected he creates a nemasis the moment he gets infected. Lister, cat and kryten one of them gets the joy of the leviathan leaving which is a good thing, then rimmmer trys to mess it up.

[ori-STUDFARM]

I’ll buy that Jonsmad

[Pete Part Three]

Well, I’m really glad she came back and showed us that Rimmer wasn’t a homicidal murderer after all.

[Not Ray Cyst]

Can holograms’ clothes come off? Wouldn’t Holly or the hard light Ace Rimmer’s remote control be needed to reconfigure Katerina’s appearance?

If Katerina was stuck in her skirt and black tights, would the boys have to settle for fellatio?

[Author]

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