Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum Which version of the closing theme do you think will be used?

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  • #2860
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    D’you think it’ll be the original version used during series I and II (later used in VI-VIII), or the re-recorded version used in III-V? Or do you think they’ll re-record it?

    *patiently awaits post from some snarky git, probably Cappsy, suggesting they use the Elvis version from “Meltdown”*

    #91452
    Phil
    Participant

    >probably Cappsy

    I read your subject line and immediately popped in to make “Elvis version” the first reply.

    But now I know you won’t appreciate it.

    Tit.

    #91453
    pfm
    Participant

    I still don’t get why it was re-recorded, especially when it turned out worse-sounding than the first version. I’m guessing it’ll just be the original track for Back To Earth. Re-recording it would be pointless, and using something else would be fucking sacrilege. I mean, it would be like changing the One Foot In The Grave theme, or OFAH, bad idea.

    Also, am I dreaming or does the original recording randomly crop up during III-V? It’s just hit me it’s something I’ve never paid much attention to, fuck damn it.

    #91455
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    We need a proper guide on which episodes used which tune.

    Although it doesn’t matter to me as I’ve never been able to tell the difference.

    #91461
    Somebody
    Participant

    It wouldn’t shock me if they just used an instrumental version, given the voiceovers that go with CREDIT SQUEEZING.

    [And if they do use any version of the lyrical tune, I would almost count on it being just one verse rather than the standard two.]

    #91463
    Dave
    Participant

    > Although it doesn?t matter to me as I?ve never been able to tell the difference

    This is the first I’m even hearing of it.

    #91473
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    I think Lily Allen should re-record it. And also be in the episode.

    And then DIE.

    #91474
    Tyrell Corporation
    Participant

    I smell an exhaustive guide to the Red Dwarf theme variations…

    #91480
    Mr Flibble
    Participant

    I think I’m right in saying that Doug and Howard are not aware of a second version ever having been recorded or used.

    #91481
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    > Although it doesn?t matter to me as I?ve never been able to tell the difference

    This is the first I?m even hearing of it.

    Likewise.

    #91482
    si
    Participant

    Hammond Organ version.

    #91483
    hummingbird
    Participant

    Bolivian nose flute.

    #91486
    Tyrell Corporation
    Participant

    FREE BIRD.

    #91487
    peas_and_corn
    Participant

    Bird man?

    #91488
    Tyrell Corporation
    Participant

    An adroit pardon.

    #91495
    locusceruleus
    Participant

    >Although it doesn?t matter to me as I?ve never been able to tell the difference.

    Thank God for that – I never even noticed it had been re-recorded.

    #91497
    pfm
    Participant

    Should be the Coronation Street theme.

    #91542
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    I smell an exhaustive guide to the Red Dwarf theme variations?

    I have MP3s of all of the variants of the theme sitting on my hard drive. I’d intended to use them on the Red Dwarf Reference Guide. Still don’t know if I’m going to restart that project.

    #91548
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    >I have MP3s of all of the variants of the theme sitting on my hard drive.

    Are you sure they’re actually re-records, and not just the same thing played out at a slightly different tempo due to the series being spread out over many years?

    I had honestly never heard any, anything about there being specifically re-recorded or remixed versions of the closing theme. Er, aside from the episode-specific ones, obviously.

    EDIT : ALTERNATIVELY I COULD JUST BE WRONG SHUT UP KTHXBYE.

    But yes, someone should properly document this stuff.

    #91551
    John Hoare
    Participant

    I can hear two different versions. Listen to any episode from Series 1 or 2, and then listen to any episode from III, and you’ll hear it…

    #91569
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    Are you sure they?re actually re-records, and not just the same thing played out at a slightly different tempo due to the series being spread out over many years?

    There’s a distinct difference between the versionb of the theme that’s used in I and II (and later in VII and VIII, although it pops up occasionally during IV, V and VI) and the one used in III. They probably re-recorded it at the same time they recorded the III intro theme, because the tambourine is quite distinct and the vocals are a different performance.

    #91573
    Mr Flibble
    Participant

    Doug and Howard are still adamant it never happened.

    #91574
    hummingbird
    Participant

    Maybe it was just a different vocal take or a different mix.

    #91576
    Blisschick
    Participant

    There are two different versions. I just realized that myself the other night. I just dismissed it as an updated version for the (at the time) new episodes.

    What about something orchestral like Ace Rimmer’s theme? Scary, I know. Just my two cents.

    #91577
    JamesTC
    Participant

    They should use the ‘Waiting for God’ version.

    #91578
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Doug and Howard are still adamant it never happened.

    Sources?

    #91596
    Mr Flibble
    Participant

    Sources?

    I don’t know.

    I thought it was in Settling the Score (which as it was on the DVDs, would provide a link with Doug, as surely he would say “that’s wrong” if it was) but apparently it is not.

    However I have definitely heard or read something which categorically states that it was never re-recorded, it was just cleaned up a bit (and maybe it was remixed as part of that).

    Perhaps we can look at this way – nowhere does it say it has ever been rerecorded. Your Time Hole Series I piece is specific about who played what, and never again does it mention that the theme was rerecorded for that series.

    How about on the DVDs, where the same version appears on all eight? ;)

    I don’t know where the source is, but it was definitely Howard Goodall, and from a respected source.

    I too thought there were two versions, hence my surprise when I found out there was only one.

    #91599
    Andrew
    Participant

    > I thought it was in Settling the Score (which as it was on the DVDs, would provide a link with Doug, as surely he would say ?that?s wrong? if it was) but apparently it is not.

    Well you have to question how well-remembered these things are. After all Doug, Howard and I (who, admittedly, was never on Series VII) all let Settling the Score go out with the implication that Howard scored the final version of the assassination sequence. It’s an error I totally cop to, though at the time I had no reason to expect the music had been recorded and replaced since nobody recalled it happening.

    Regardless, letting a thing pass as someone else’s statement isn’t the same as concurring with it. Were that the case, Norman would hardly be in the docs. :-)

    > However I have definitely heard or read something which categorically states that it was never re-recorded, it was just cleaned up a bit (and maybe it was remixed as part of that).

    Again I say ‘Sources’? I mean, I refuted a post last year from a fan who had DEFINITELY seen ‘Series IX’…!

    For the record, I concur on the point – having dropped both versions into Final Cut together, I think it’s the same vocal and same instrument elements but with a remix. The voice has more echo, the tambourine is clearer, and the timing is actually slightly different after a certain point, as if a specific change is made in the middle. (Much like the Buffy theme was re-done to correct a slip off the beat.)

    But this is just after-the-fact guesswork, and I don’t have particularly adroit audio skills, nor a great ear for music. (I’m a Genesis fan.)

    > Perhaps we can look at this way – nowhere does it say it has ever been rerecorded. Your Time Hole Series I piece is specific about who played what, and never again does it mention that the theme was rerecorded for that series.

    The Time Hole is specific to the credited artists, to the paperwork. So this second version must be a remix or alternate take, I guess.

    > How about on the DVDs, where the same version appears on all eight? ;)

    All eight what? The eps are as per transmission. Oh, right, if you mean the music cues: there’s nothing I’ve found on record of there BEING two versions. So the version we had on file is the version on the DVD.

    Nothing on record. Which is why it’s never come up in interviews. Howard had never flagged it up, nor Ed, Rob, Doug or Jem. Could be that all of them didn’t know. Could be Ed Wooden 1989 just picked up a different DAT.

    I’m starting to suspect that even the production itself is almost wholly unaware of the difference. That this is one of those things that passes completely unnoticed. But again: just theory. I won’t be stating for sure that anyone said this.

    > I don?t know where the source is, but it was definitely Howard Goodall, and from a respected source.

    Well, when you put it like that, sure, Doug does come across awfully adamant-seeming on the subject.

    > I too thought there were two versions, hence my surprise when I found out there was only one.

    Well, as we’ve seen, it may be an alternate version – which would still make it a ‘second’ version. But one likely based on the same elements of recording session.

    Does anyone with any actual musical skills have any analysis on the versions?!

    #91600
    pfm
    Participant

    OK, this is the ‘normal’ version of the song, as heard all the way through I, II, VII & VIII along with various appearances in between – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZFLKXINNns

    The ‘other’ version is at the end of this clip (please feel free to piss yourself at Robert’s delivery of ‘we want to stay!’ before carrying on to the theme…) – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJlDIeWp0Dk

    Personally I think, as I always have, that they are two COMPLETELY different recordings. The vocal and brass lines are definitely different. Then you’ve got guitar in the ‘other’ version that doesn’t even exist in the original. Loads of reverb on the tambo and drums on the ‘other’ version makes it unclear whether they were re-recorded or just had that added on. There seems to be more cymbal crashes going on in the ‘other’ version, though maybe they were just mixed low originally. FUCK only knows the truth.

    #91601
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    I don’t notice much difference in the music, but the singing *definitely* sounds different. The different take theory certainly sounds best to me, but god knows why it was a) changed in the first place or b) so sporadic from III to VI.

    #91603
    pfm
    Participant

    My guess is that they did a couple of different takes of the whole song, including different vocals, brass, guitar, bass (though the piano sounds the same), at the same time, as opposed to it being specifically re-recorded for III, which SOMEONE in the production would probably remember. The alt-take was probably just used by accident.

    #91606
    thomasaevans
    Participant

    Sorry, but these are two completley different recordings, as Ive always thought. jenna’s vocals are extremley different.

    Im sure I heard/read somewhere that Howard was never happy with her ‘belting’ the high notes on the original, and had It re-recorded. Now THAT I definatley need to ind sources for. But Im sure of it.

    And back to the question? They sould definatley use the original. Musically, It sounds alot more solid. And the vocals are better In my opinion. Just not that GOD AWFUL Diane Hunt version.

    #91607
    thomasaevans
    Participant

    Come to think of It, Is It even Jenna singing the second version? Does she have a Twitter page? lol

    #91613
    John Hoare
    Participant

    The vocals sound *exactly* the same to me – but I’m willing to be convinced I’m wrong. Can anybody tell me a line which is wildly different, so I can compare?

    Either way, yeah, the music is different – I always noticed that. And I prefer the original, too.

    #91627
    hummingbird
    Participant

    The music is definitely a different mix rather than a completely different recording – all the elements are there in both versions just higher/lower in the mix.

    I agree that the vocal takes are slightly different. It would seem more likely that these were two different takes done at the same session. If they were done a year or two later then you’d expect there to be more obvious differences.

    #91628
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    The vocals sound *exactly* the same to me – but I?m willing to be convinced I?m wrong. Can anybody tell me a line which is wildly different, so I can compare?

    Actually, yes, I can.

    I’d always thought that it was the same performance played out at a slightly different tempo, but there’s one significantly different line. It’s “goldfish shoals, nibbling at my toes”. In the older version, it’s sung with a more consistent beat – but in the III version, “my” is drawn out slightly as it leads into “toes”. I’m sure there’s a technical term for the effect on “my”, but I’m not a music scholar so I don’t know what it is ;-)

    But yes, there we go. I don’t know about the backing, but vocal-wise it’s definitely two different takes (although also, from the intonation, definitely the same singer in both instances – I don’t think we can question that).

    So, the question is (since I’d never considered it before), which other series is that III version used in? And to answer the ORIGINAL thread question, my guess would be that the version used in the Dave specials would either be (a) whichever one was used on VII and VIII, or (b) whichever one GNP “have on file” and put on the DVDs (unless they’re both one and the same thing).

    #91629
    John Hoare
    Participant

    Will check out that vocal thing later!

    I did a bloody list somewhere of what episodes which theme is used in – I remember it varying between episodes in V – but I can’t find it now. If I get a chance later, I’ll do it again – but if somebody wants to do it first, feel free…

    #91630
    peas_and_corn
    Participant

    It should be a version of the RD song done by a beatboxer.

    #91631
    Mr Flibble
    Participant

    Yeah, I think they’re different takes – the “rerecorded version” is the same up to the first fun, fun, fun, and gets slightly slower during this line, staying as far behind for the remainder of the song.
    (Camille has the “old” one, BTW)

    #91632
    Mr Flibble
    Participant

    I?d always thought that it was the same performance played out at a slightly different tempo, but there?s one significantly different line. It?s ?goldfish shoals, nibbling at my toes?. In the older version, it?s sung with a more consistent beat – but in the III version, ?my? is drawn out slightly as it leads into ?toes?.

    I was looking at the very same line just a minute ago :)

    #91635
    Andrew
    Participant

    So could it be that one line is different, rather than the entire song? The versions seem in synch for the final section…

    #91653
    Mr Flibble
    Participant

    I *think* it’s a different take between the start of the first “Fun, Fun, Fun” and the start of the second “Fun, Fun, Fun”.

    I think the rest of it is the same…

    #91654
    pfm
    Participant

    No, after listening some more I’m convinced the second version is a complete re-record of everything. If it wasn’t, why even bother changing stuff like the trumpet when it was perfect in the first version? Besides, I’ve just played them simultaneously (at the same time) and the second version is SLOWER by a fraction. Definitely everything redone from scratch.

    #91655
    Mr Flibble
    Participant

    The second version isn’t slower on the second chorus, it’s exactly the same.

    #91656
    Somebody
    Participant

    Seb Patrick / Sun, 2009-02-15 13:31
    And to answer the ORIGINAL thread question, my guess would be that the version used in the Dave specials would either be (a) whichever one was used on VII and VIII, or (b) whichever one GNP ?have on file? and put on the DVDs (unless they?re both one and the same thing).

    And I go back to the point that there’s almost no chance of a 50 second theme with lyrics getting to go over the closing credits of a newly-made programme in 2009, in a world where even the BBC have regs saying credits longer than 30 seconds on broadcast are absolutely verboten – and considering that the BBC have the contact details for the UKTV commissioners on their own commissioning site, the Beeb regs may well apply to UKTV too.

    Unless Mr Naylor and Mr Ellard had a big fight with UKTV over it (which I doubt, especially since it would come out of the running time, not in addition to it), at a bare minimum it’ll be sliced down to one verse, and there’s a very good chance it’ll be a purely instrumental closing theme to allow the continuity announcer to talk over them.

    #91657
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Well wouldn’t it be better if the credits are cut down, more on screen time, they could just keep the start and the very last line so it goes –
    It?s cold outside, there?s no kind of atmosphere,
    I?m all along, more or less.
    Let me fly, far away from here,
    Fun, fun, fun, in the sun, sun, sun,
    Fun, fun, fun, in the sun, sun, sun.

    #91658
    Mr Flibble
    Participant

    I?m all along, more or less.

    Ooh, that’s a new one.

    #91660
    JamesTC
    Participant

    That was in the third recording.

    #91661
    pfm
    Participant

    > they could just keep the start and the very last line so it goes –

    This.

    #91663
    Andrew
    Participant

    > The second version isn?t slower on the second chorus, it?s exactly the same.

    This.

    There’s a moment in the middle that changes the timing. But if you use the first “It’s” to synch, the start lines up, and if you use the final note to synch the last section lines up. Which suggests ‘edit’ to me.

    #91664
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    > I would like to have rough sex with Cappsy. Love from Phil.

    This.

    #91670
    Carlito
    Participant

    > This.

    This.

    #91679
    pfm
    Participant

    I’m gonna go out on a limb and say the second version was the first recorded and the one heard in I-II etc. was the re-record. i.e. we were never meant to hear the one used on III-VI (sporadically replaced with the I-II version) but for WHATEVER reason it got used anyway. It’s more likely to be a simple production mistake rather than a creative decision.

    The one from I-II, VII-VIII is snappier, cleaner, BETTER-sounding. It makes more sense to me for it to be the OTHER version that Howard Goodall was unhappy with as it sounds generally sloppier. Oh FFS, someone must know the truth. Goodall? Ed? Doug?

    #91680
    Tyrell Corporation
    Participant

    A production mistake that managed to slip past for four series?

    #91681
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Sure, it’s not THAT different.

    #91682
    peas_and_corn
    Participant

    Maybe a comparison between the two would be good- have them both playing at the same time, with opne panned hard left and the other panned hard right?

    #91683
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Heh, “hard”.

    #91684
    peas_and_corn
    Participant

    It’s hard because you’re in the room

    #91685
    thomasaevans
    Participant

    Im really hearing It differently. To me, they’re astoundingly different. I dont see any similarities in the vocals. The Series 3/5 version… Take the ‘im all alone’ line, the alone note seems to slide down, and ‘sun sun sun’, the second sun is slightly flat compared with the original. Its knida tedious to carry on like this, but this is no way the same recording remixed or another edit. Its a complete rerecording.

    I would absolutley LOVE Howard to do a fully orchestrated score for BTE. I guy can dream eh.

    #91687
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    This is clearly going to drive everyone mad unless we find out the facts or, perhaps, distract ourselves with some other banality.

    #91688
    Mr-Stabby
    Participant

    I’ve always thought the two versions were different almost entirely.

    I think the most obvious difference between the two versions is the opening couple of seconds, the Series 3-5 version has much sharper hits than the original version, and the end again is much more pronounced. If that makes any sense lol

    The vocals are from a different recording too. It’s most noticeable at ‘nibbling at my toes’ methinks. The ‘my’ is held for a tiny bit longer before saying ‘toes’ :P And the ‘toes’ again is much more pronounced and longer.

    EDIT – for your gratification, a comparison:

    http://www.bpirozzolo.com/dwarfchanges.mp3

    Three clips, the first time it’s the original verison, the second time the Series 3-5 version, spot the difference :P (apologies for the shite quality, youtube sucks)

    /geek hat off :P

    #91691
    Dave
    Participant

    > This.

    That.

    #91692
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    I’m fairly confident the second version was recorded at the same time as the new title theme. Of course, as I’ve no way of knowing this, I could be wrong. But the tambourine in the second version can also be heard in the opening titles version.

    #91693
    pfm
    Participant

    > That.

    The other.

    #91695
    pfm
    Participant

    > http://www.bpirozzolo.com/dwarfchanges.mp3

    Nice one. I think this clearly illustrates how they are both completely different. As I said before, the trumpet/brass, and also the cymbal crashes at the end, are so different it defies sense for the second version to be just a remix of the first. You can even tell that the tambo is a different recording, it’s not just that more reverb has been added to it.

    Now what we need to know is WHEN the second version was done. I still think there’s a chance it pre-dates the I-II version, but maybe it’s looking more likely that it was done at the same time as the opening guitar theme for III.

    #91709
    Mr Flibble
    Participant

    Maybe a comparison between the two would be good- have them both playing at the same time, with opne panned hard left and the other panned hard right?

    I tried that. It was harder to hear than playing both panned centrally.

    #91712
    thomasaevans
    Participant

    Good comparison. Totally different. End of.

    Someone drop Howard a line, and some memory regression sessions!

    #91764
    Dave
    Participant

    >The other.

    The Alternative.

    #91780
    Tyrell Corporation
    Participant

    The music in the most well known version is better, but the vocals in the alternative take are more… energetic.

    #91792
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    As long as the content is good I really couldn’t give a fuck.

    Opening credits more important but ultimately, see above.

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