Which version of the closing theme do you think will be used?

[Ben Paddon]

D’you think it’ll be the original version used during series I and II (later used in VI-VIII), or the re-recorded version used in III-V? Or do you think they’ll re-record it?

*patiently awaits post from some snarky git, probably Cappsy, suggesting they use the Elvis version from “Meltdown”*

[Phil]

>probably Cappsy

I read your subject line and immediately popped in to make “Elvis version” the first reply.

But now I know you won’t appreciate it.

Tit.

[pfm]

I still don’t get why it was re-recorded, especially when it turned out worse-sounding than the first version. I’m guessing it’ll just be the original track for Back To Earth. Re-recording it would be pointless, and using something else would be fucking sacrilege. I mean, it would be like changing the One Foot In The Grave theme, or OFAH, bad idea.

Also, am I dreaming or does the original recording randomly crop up during III-V? It’s just hit me it’s something I’ve never paid much attention to, fuck damn it.

[Jonathan Capps]

We need a proper guide on which episodes used which tune.

Although it doesn’t matter to me as I’ve never been able to tell the difference.

[Somebody]

It wouldn’t shock me if they just used an instrumental version, given the voiceovers that go with CREDIT SQUEEZING.

[And if they do use any version of the lyrical tune, I would almost count on it being just one verse rather than the standard two.]

[Dave]

> Although it doesn?t matter to me as I?ve never been able to tell the difference

This is the first I’m even hearing of it.

[Pete Part Three]

I think Lily Allen should re-record it. And also be in the episode.

And then DIE.

[Tyrell Corporation]

I smell an exhaustive guide to the Red Dwarf theme variations…

[Mr Flibble]

I think I’m right in saying that Doug and Howard are not aware of a second version ever having been recorded or used.

[Seb Patrick]

> Although it doesn?t matter to me as I?ve never been able to tell the difference

This is the first I?m even hearing of it.

Likewise.

[si]

Hammond Organ version.

[hummingbird]

Bolivian nose flute.

[Tyrell Corporation]

FREE BIRD.

[peas_and_corn]

Bird man?

[Tyrell Corporation]

An adroit pardon.

[locusceruleus]

>Although it doesn?t matter to me as I?ve never been able to tell the difference.

Thank God for that – I never even noticed it had been re-recorded.

[pfm]

Should be the Coronation Street theme.

[Ben Paddon]

I smell an exhaustive guide to the Red Dwarf theme variations?

I have MP3s of all of the variants of the theme sitting on my hard drive. I’d intended to use them on the Red Dwarf Reference Guide. Still don’t know if I’m going to restart that project.

[Seb Patrick]

>I have MP3s of all of the variants of the theme sitting on my hard drive.

Are you sure they’re actually re-records, and not just the same thing played out at a slightly different tempo due to the series being spread out over many years?

I had honestly never heard any, anything about there being specifically re-recorded or remixed versions of the closing theme. Er, aside from the episode-specific ones, obviously.

EDIT : ALTERNATIVELY I COULD JUST BE WRONG SHUT UP KTHXBYE.

But yes, someone should properly document this stuff.

[John Hoare]

I can hear two different versions. Listen to any episode from Series 1 or 2, and then listen to any episode from III, and you’ll hear it…

[Ben Paddon]

Are you sure they?re actually re-records, and not just the same thing played out at a slightly different tempo due to the series being spread out over many years?

There’s a distinct difference between the versionb of the theme that’s used in I and II (and later in VII and VIII, although it pops up occasionally during IV, V and VI) and the one used in III. They probably re-recorded it at the same time they recorded the III intro theme, because the tambourine is quite distinct and the vocals are a different performance.

[Mr Flibble]

Doug and Howard are still adamant it never happened.

[hummingbird]

Maybe it was just a different vocal take or a different mix.

[Blisschick]

There are two different versions. I just realized that myself the other night. I just dismissed it as an updated version for the (at the time) new episodes.

What about something orchestral like Ace Rimmer’s theme? Scary, I know. Just my two cents.

[JamesTC]

They should use the ‘Waiting for God’ version.

[Andrew]

> Doug and Howard are still adamant it never happened.

Sources?

[Mr Flibble]

Sources?

I don’t know.

I thought it was in Settling the Score (which as it was on the DVDs, would provide a link with Doug, as surely he would say “that’s wrong” if it was) but apparently it is not.

However I have definitely heard or read something which categorically states that it was never re-recorded, it was just cleaned up a bit (and maybe it was remixed as part of that).

Perhaps we can look at this way – nowhere does it say it has ever been rerecorded. Your Time Hole Series I piece is specific about who played what, and never again does it mention that the theme was rerecorded for that series.

How about on the DVDs, where the same version appears on all eight? ;)

I don’t know where the source is, but it was definitely Howard Goodall, and from a respected source.

I too thought there were two versions, hence my surprise when I found out there was only one.

[Andrew]

> I thought it was in Settling the Score (which as it was on the DVDs, would provide a link with Doug, as surely he would say ?that?s wrong? if it was) but apparently it is not.

Well you have to question how well-remembered these things are. After all Doug, Howard and I (who, admittedly, was never on Series VII) all let Settling the Score go out with the implication that Howard scored the final version of the assassination sequence. It’s an error I totally cop to, though at the time I had no reason to expect the music had been recorded and replaced since nobody recalled it happening.

Regardless, letting a thing pass as someone else’s statement isn’t the same as concurring with it. Were that the case, Norman would hardly be in the docs. :-)

> However I have definitely heard or read something which categorically states that it was never re-recorded, it was just cleaned up a bit (and maybe it was remixed as part of that).

Again I say ‘Sources’? I mean, I refuted a post last year from a fan who had DEFINITELY seen ‘Series IX’…!

For the record, I concur on the point – having dropped both versions into Final Cut together, I think it’s the same vocal and same instrument elements but with a remix. The voice has more echo, the tambourine is clearer, and the timing is actually slightly different after a certain point, as if a specific change is made in the middle. (Much like the Buffy theme was re-done to correct a slip off the beat.)

But this is just after-the-fact guesswork, and I don’t have particularly adroit audio skills, nor a great ear for music. (I’m a Genesis fan.)

> Perhaps we can look at this way – nowhere does it say it has ever been rerecorded. Your Time Hole Series I piece is specific about who played what, and never again does it mention that the theme was rerecorded for that series.

The Time Hole is specific to the credited artists, to the paperwork. So this second version must be a remix or alternate take, I guess.

> How about on the DVDs, where the same version appears on all eight? ;)

All eight what? The eps are as per transmission. Oh, right, if you mean the music cues: there’s nothing I’ve found on record of there BEING two versions. So the version we had on file is the version on the DVD.

Nothing on record. Which is why it’s never come up in interviews. Howard had never flagged it up, nor Ed, Rob, Doug or Jem. Could be that all of them didn’t know. Could be Ed Wooden 1989 just picked up a different DAT.

I’m starting to suspect that even the production itself is almost wholly unaware of the difference. That this is one of those things that passes completely unnoticed. But again: just theory. I won’t be stating for sure that anyone said this.

> I don?t know where the source is, but it was definitely Howard Goodall, and from a respected source.

Well, when you put it like that, sure, Doug does come across awfully adamant-seeming on the subject.

> I too thought there were two versions, hence my surprise when I found out there was only one.

Well, as we’ve seen, it may be an alternate version – which would still make it a ‘second’ version. But one likely based on the same elements of recording session.

Does anyone with any actual musical skills have any analysis on the versions?!

[pfm]

OK, this is the ‘normal’ version of the song, as heard all the way through I, II, VII & VIII along with various appearances in between – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZFLKXINNns

The ‘other’ version is at the end of this clip (please feel free to piss yourself at Robert’s delivery of ‘we want to stay!’ before carrying on to the theme…) – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJlDIeWp0Dk

Personally I think, as I always have, that they are two COMPLETELY different recordings. The vocal and brass lines are definitely different. Then you’ve got guitar in the ‘other’ version that doesn’t even exist in the original. Loads of reverb on the tambo and drums on the ‘other’ version makes it unclear whether they were re-recorded or just had that added on. There seems to be more cymbal crashes going on in the ‘other’ version, though maybe they were just mixed low originally. FUCK only knows the truth.

[Jonathan Capps]

I don’t notice much difference in the music, but the singing *definitely* sounds different. The different take theory certainly sounds best to me, but god knows why it was a) changed in the first place or b) so sporadic from III to VI.

[pfm]

My guess is that they did a couple of different takes of the whole song, including different vocals, brass, guitar, bass (though the piano sounds the same), at the same time, as opposed to it being specifically re-recorded for III, which SOMEONE in the production would probably remember. The alt-take was probably just used by accident.

[thomasaevans]

Sorry, but these are two completley different recordings, as Ive always thought. jenna’s vocals are extremley different.

Im sure I heard/read somewhere that Howard was never happy with her ‘belting’ the high notes on the original, and had It re-recorded. Now THAT I definatley need to ind sources for. But Im sure of it.

And back to the question? They sould definatley use the original. Musically, It sounds alot more solid. And the vocals are better In my opinion. Just not that GOD AWFUL Diane Hunt version.

[thomasaevans]

Come to think of It, Is It even Jenna singing the second version? Does she have a Twitter page? lol

[John Hoare]

The vocals sound *exactly* the same to me – but I’m willing to be convinced I’m wrong. Can anybody tell me a line which is wildly different, so I can compare?

Either way, yeah, the music is different – I always noticed that. And I prefer the original, too.

[hummingbird]

The music is definitely a different mix rather than a completely different recording – all the elements are there in both versions just higher/lower in the mix.

I agree that the vocal takes are slightly different. It would seem more likely that these were two different takes done at the same session. If they were done a year or two later then you’d expect there to be more obvious differences.

[Seb Patrick]

The vocals sound *exactly* the same to me – but I?m willing to be convinced I?m wrong. Can anybody tell me a line which is wildly different, so I can compare?

Actually, yes, I can.

I’d always thought that it was the same performance played out at a slightly different tempo, but there’s one significantly different line. It’s “goldfish shoals, nibbling at my toes”. In the older version, it’s sung with a more consistent beat – but in the III version, “my” is drawn out slightly as it leads into “toes”. I’m sure there’s a technical term for the effect on “my”, but I’m not a music scholar so I don’t know what it is ;-)

But yes, there we go. I don’t know about the backing, but vocal-wise it’s definitely two different takes (although also, from the intonation, definitely the same singer in both instances – I don’t think we can question that).

So, the question is (since I’d never considered it before), which other series is that III version used in? And to answer the ORIGINAL thread question, my guess would be that the version used in the Dave specials would either be (a) whichever one was used on VII and VIII, or (b) whichever one GNP “have on file” and put on the DVDs (unless they’re both one and the same thing).

[John Hoare]

Will check out that vocal thing later!

I did a bloody list somewhere of what episodes which theme is used in – I remember it varying between episodes in V – but I can’t find it now. If I get a chance later, I’ll do it again – but if somebody wants to do it first, feel free…

[peas_and_corn]

It should be a version of the RD song done by a beatboxer.

[Mr Flibble]

Yeah, I think they’re different takes – the “rerecorded version” is the same up to the first fun, fun, fun, and gets slightly slower during this line, staying as far behind for the remainder of the song.
(Camille has the “old” one, BTW)

[Mr Flibble]

I?d always thought that it was the same performance played out at a slightly different tempo, but there?s one significantly different line. It?s ?goldfish shoals, nibbling at my toes?. In the older version, it?s sung with a more consistent beat – but in the III version, ?my? is drawn out slightly as it leads into ?toes?.

I was looking at the very same line just a minute ago :)

[Andrew]

So could it be that one line is different, rather than the entire song? The versions seem in synch for the final section…

[Mr Flibble]

I *think* it’s a different take between the start of the first “Fun, Fun, Fun” and the start of the second “Fun, Fun, Fun”.

I think the rest of it is the same…

[pfm]

No, after listening some more I’m convinced the second version is a complete re-record of everything. If it wasn’t, why even bother changing stuff like the trumpet when it was perfect in the first version? Besides, I’ve just played them simultaneously (at the same time) and the second version is SLOWER by a fraction. Definitely everything redone from scratch.

[Mr Flibble]

The second version isn’t slower on the second chorus, it’s exactly the same.

[Somebody]

Seb Patrick / Sun, 2009-02-15 13:31
And to answer the ORIGINAL thread question, my guess would be that the version used in the Dave specials would either be (a) whichever one was used on VII and VIII, or (b) whichever one GNP ?have on file? and put on the DVDs (unless they?re both one and the same thing).

And I go back to the point that there’s almost no chance of a 50 second theme with lyrics getting to go over the closing credits of a newly-made programme in 2009, in a world where even the BBC have regs saying credits longer than 30 seconds on broadcast are absolutely verboten – and considering that the BBC have the contact details for the UKTV commissioners on their own commissioning site, the Beeb regs may well apply to UKTV too.

Unless Mr Naylor and Mr Ellard had a big fight with UKTV over it (which I doubt, especially since it would come out of the running time, not in addition to it), at a bare minimum it’ll be sliced down to one verse, and there’s a very good chance it’ll be a purely instrumental closing theme to allow the continuity announcer to talk over them.

[JamesTC]

Well wouldn’t it be better if the credits are cut down, more on screen time, they could just keep the start and the very last line so it goes –
It?s cold outside, there?s no kind of atmosphere,
I?m all along, more or less.
Let me fly, far away from here,
Fun, fun, fun, in the sun, sun, sun,
Fun, fun, fun, in the sun, sun, sun.

[Mr Flibble]

I?m all along, more or less.

Ooh, that’s a new one.

[JamesTC]

That was in the third recording.

[pfm]

> they could just keep the start and the very last line so it goes –

This.

[Andrew]

> The second version isn?t slower on the second chorus, it?s exactly the same.

This.

There’s a moment in the middle that changes the timing. But if you use the first “It’s” to synch, the start lines up, and if you use the final note to synch the last section lines up. Which suggests ‘edit’ to me.

[Jonathan Capps]

> I would like to have rough sex with Cappsy. Love from Phil.

This.

[Carlito]

> This.

This.

[pfm]

I’m gonna go out on a limb and say the second version was the first recorded and the one heard in I-II etc. was the re-record. i.e. we were never meant to hear the one used on III-VI (sporadically replaced with the I-II version) but for WHATEVER reason it got used anyway. It’s more likely to be a simple production mistake rather than a creative decision.

The one from I-II, VII-VIII is snappier, cleaner, BETTER-sounding. It makes more sense to me for it to be the OTHER version that Howard Goodall was unhappy with as it sounds generally sloppier. Oh FFS, someone must know the truth. Goodall? Ed? Doug?

[Tyrell Corporation]

A production mistake that managed to slip past for four series?

[ChrisM]

Sure, it’s not THAT different.

[peas_and_corn]

Maybe a comparison between the two would be good- have them both playing at the same time, with opne panned hard left and the other panned hard right?

[Jonathan Capps]

Heh, “hard”.

[peas_and_corn]

It’s hard because you’re in the room

[thomasaevans]

Im really hearing It differently. To me, they’re astoundingly different. I dont see any similarities in the vocals. The Series 3/5 version… Take the ‘im all alone’ line, the alone note seems to slide down, and ‘sun sun sun’, the second sun is slightly flat compared with the original. Its knida tedious to carry on like this, but this is no way the same recording remixed or another edit. Its a complete rerecording.

I would absolutley LOVE Howard to do a fully orchestrated score for BTE. I guy can dream eh.

[Jonathan Capps]

This is clearly going to drive everyone mad unless we find out the facts or, perhaps, distract ourselves with some other banality.

[Mr-Stabby]

I’ve always thought the two versions were different almost entirely.

I think the most obvious difference between the two versions is the opening couple of seconds, the Series 3-5 version has much sharper hits than the original version, and the end again is much more pronounced. If that makes any sense lol

The vocals are from a different recording too. It’s most noticeable at ‘nibbling at my toes’ methinks. The ‘my’ is held for a tiny bit longer before saying ‘toes’ :P And the ‘toes’ again is much more pronounced and longer.

EDIT – for your gratification, a comparison:

http://www.bpirozzolo.com/dwarfchanges.mp3

Three clips, the first time it’s the original verison, the second time the Series 3-5 version, spot the difference :P (apologies for the shite quality, youtube sucks)

/geek hat off :P

[Dave]

> This.

That.

[Ben Paddon]

I’m fairly confident the second version was recorded at the same time as the new title theme. Of course, as I’ve no way of knowing this, I could be wrong. But the tambourine in the second version can also be heard in the opening titles version.

[pfm]

> That.

The other.

[pfm]

> http://www.bpirozzolo.com/dwarfchanges.mp3

Nice one. I think this clearly illustrates how they are both completely different. As I said before, the trumpet/brass, and also the cymbal crashes at the end, are so different it defies sense for the second version to be just a remix of the first. You can even tell that the tambo is a different recording, it’s not just that more reverb has been added to it.

Now what we need to know is WHEN the second version was done. I still think there’s a chance it pre-dates the I-II version, but maybe it’s looking more likely that it was done at the same time as the opening guitar theme for III.

[Mr Flibble]

Maybe a comparison between the two would be good- have them both playing at the same time, with opne panned hard left and the other panned hard right?

I tried that. It was harder to hear than playing both panned centrally.

[thomasaevans]

Good comparison. Totally different. End of.

Someone drop Howard a line, and some memory regression sessions!

[Dave]

>The other.

The Alternative.

[Tyrell Corporation]

The music in the most well known version is better, but the vocals in the alternative take are more… energetic.

[Anonymous]

As long as the content is good I really couldn’t give a fuck.

Opening credits more important but ultimately, see above.

[Author]

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