Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum Would you watch a Red Dwarf "reboot" with an all female cast?

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  • #236637
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    A problem with Discovery is it’s after Enterprise but feels more lawless despite the Federation being a thing.

    If you want to do a sort of violent, moody, drama with sexual abuse plotlines etc, you probably shouldn’t put it inside the Star Trek universe. That’s not to say I’m adverse to new things, Enterprise was a different way of doing things, and some didn’t like it, but it was still Star Treklike, but Discovery goes a bit far, like doing a new series of Brum and making it about kerb crawling.

    #236642
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    Trouble with that is, we’re veering into Sequel Trilogy territory. Make it echo the older stuff, and people complain that you’re just “ripping off” what came before, but make it too different and you’re in “rabid fanbase petitions DIsney to let them remake The Last Jedi” territory.

    Personally, I like Discovery. Initially my thoughts were, “Well, this is very good, but it isn’t what I come to Star Trek for.” By the time I finished that first season and I saw what they’d been doing as a whole, I was in love. It’s easily the best first season of a Star Trek series since TOS, and it contains one of my all-time favorite Trek episodes ever. So… yeah.

    Different isn’t bad. It’s just… different. And people are inherently scared of different. It’s why people’s first instinct when they hear about something getting a remake or a reboot is to sort-of balk. It’s why some old-school fans of Doctor Who had already decided to hate the revival as far back as 2003, before they’d even shot a single frame of it. It’s why nerds are lashing out at the new ThunderCats and She-Ra cartoons despite the fact that we’ve seen virtually nothing of them. Different is scary, and so people get on the defensive about it when really there’s just as much a chance we’ll end up with a Battlestar Galactica or a Next Generation as there is we’ll end up with a Life on Mars or a Total Recall.

    FWIW, I’ve long thought a reboot of Red Dwarf – one that leans in a little to the comedy-drama tone of VII or BTE, though obviously funnier – could work. Like a comedy Galactica. Hell, I have part of a pilot script and a series bible sitting on my hard drive, because sometimes the only way to deal with a depressive bout is to sit and rework your favorite TV series into something new. I really think it could work.

    #236644

    I could never watch a Red Dwarf reboot, there’s only one Lister, Rimmer, Cat, and Kryten (post-Series II) for me

    #236648
    Hamish
    Participant

    > They like the existing universe and feel new, interesting stories could be told within that framework?

    Sure, which means they like how something was done (thirty) years ago, and want to emulate it. Which is fine in and of itself. But it is the pot calling the kettle black to then turn around and dismiss all criticisms of the new show, whatever its flaws and merits may be, under the blanket statement that people just don’t want to see change.

    #236649
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    That criticism of people who criticise the sequel trilogy always sounded dishonest at best to me, since perhaps the reason people don’t like the films is because they think they’re shite, rather than the mere fact that we had one film similar to and one film different from the original trilogy. If either of those films were actually enjoyable (and bits of TLJ were) then we wouldn’t have an issue. There are good Doctor Who stories which are essentially rehashes of previous tales, and good Doctor Who stories which really bend the format and do new things with it. It isn’t purely a film being similar/different that makes it good or bad.

    #236650
    Hamish
    Participant

    At the risk of sounding like an old man at the tender age of 24 though, what I will say is that there once was a time where you could go up to an aspiring young television writer and say “you could make the next Star Trek” without it being taken as read that you were literally meaning that they were going to make the next Star Trek.

    You may all tell me to get off your lawns now.

    #236651
    Hamish
    Participant

    Forget to close one tag and suddenly you can’t stop shouting at everyone!

    #236652
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    That criticism of people who criticise the sequel trilogy always sounded dishonest at best to me, since perhaps the reason people don’t like the films is because they think they’re shite, rather than the mere fact that we had one film similar to and one film different from the original trilogy. If either of those films were actually enjoyable (and bits of TLJ were) then we wouldn’t have an issue.

    It is a little tricky to rebut criticisms of the Star Wars sequels if the criticism is just the conclusion itself rather than the reasoning.

    “This is shite.”

    “No, it isn’t.”

    “Yes, it is.”

    “No, it isn’t.”

    “But it is though”.

    “Not really.”

    “Well I say it is.”

    “I disagree strongly.”

    “Admit it, it’s shite.”

    “Nope.”

    “Not enjoyable though, right?”

    “Well I enjoyed it a lot.”

    “No you didn’t.”

    #236653
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Different can be bad though and often is, and as Ben and Hamish say, just because it’s been brave enough to try something new, that doesn’t preclude it being wank.

    I just really hate it when people write a show that has lore, and ignore the lore, when the major reason people are watching what they’ve written is the show’s universe. Discovery seems to pick and choose.

    There’s plenty of room within Star Trek to do interesting things, but warp is warp, Starfleet crew members don’t say fuck, stuff like that. If you just want to write GoT in space write something else for Netflix.

    Discovery is quite a good show in the middle but it’s a poor Star Trek show.

    Also they should remake Episode IX because it’s terrible, just as a film before you get to it’s place within Star Wars as a whole.

    That bit with the weird camel things and the little kid is as bad as anything George Lucas did in the prequels, there are just so many awful things that just don’t work. Luke assaulting a creature for it’s milk, the huge rubber fish, those furby things watching their family get cooked and eaten (was that supposed to be funny?), Rey and Kylo force Skype. Jesus.

    Mark Hamill is the only person in that film worth watching and I feel genuinely heartbroken for him that he had to make that shite.

    #236654
    bloodteller
    Participant

    >Also they should remake Episode IX because it’s terrible, just as a film before you get to it’s place within Star Wars as a whole.

    Surely you mean Episode VIII? Either way, I think the argument that it should be remade is really stupid. It’s not an amazing film, it’s not a great film, but there’s absolutely no reason for it to be remade. There are plenty of shit films in the world, but none of those get remade either just because people don’t like them. I’d say just accept it exists, move on, and hope that Episode IX is better

    #236655
    bloodteller
    Participant

    I didn’t like it a lot either but all the people pleading for a remake is a bit much I think.

    Plus no matter how many times you remade it, Daisy Ridley would still be playing the main character, so the film would automatically lose points due to her constant case of, for lack of a better phrase, “resting bitch face” and total inability to act or deliver any of her lines convincingly.

    #236657
    Hamish
    Participant

    > Different can be bad though and often is, and as Ben and Hamish say, just because it’s been brave enough to try something new, that doesn’t preclude it being wank.

    Actually my argument was more that they are not being that brave, that in many ways they are all just as bad for being stuck in the past, and that it would be hypocritical of them to point fingers over a nostalgic desire to go back to the well once more.

    #236658
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Yeah VIII sorry, I think the problem with it (and I know it’s not going to be remade, I am sane) is that it’s killed so many of the good parts of VII (and maybe even the entire series) and it can only really maintain or get worse because of the plot inconsistencies and generally not very exciting plot threads that can be continued.

    At least we’ve got Solo 2 coming.

    Daisy Ridley is an odd one, she was great I thought in VII, but it was like she’d completely forgotten the character before VIII, even her accent is a bit different.

    Sorry Hamish, misread your argument.

    #236659
    Warbodog
    Member

    I bet Star Wars nerds will still be complaining about VII and VIII decades down the line when they’re barely relevant any more, the losers.

    #236660
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    The Last Jedi is far from fautless, but it was the best thing to happen to Star Wars for 34 years.

    #236661
    Dave
    Participant

    Dark Forces came out in 1995, not 1983.

    #236663
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Even if The Last Jedi were Attack of the Clones levels of bad, immediately remaking it would be the most unavoidably disastrous course of action Disney could take. It would completely alienate the majority of the audience (who liked the film), it would waste hundreds of millions already spent on Episode IX, it would confuse the fuck out of everyone, and most of the Last Jedi detractors would probably still hate it.

    The idea also presumes that all of the required cast and crew would be totally cool about doing this new film – a film they are almost definitely not under contract to produce, a film which only exists to trash another film they dedicated years of their lives to making. The idea is so unbelievably stupid that I’m still not convinced that the whole #RemakeTheLastJedi campaign isn’t just one big joke that got out of hand. Like, do they think that personally hating The Last Jedi has slid them into a parallel universe where it wasn’t a commercial and critical smash hit?

    I do recommend you follow the updates if you fancy a chuckle, though. They include such highlights as “Snoke – a fascist dictator who believes in the inherent superiority of evil – says that bloodlines are important for the force, yet the film shows that this is not true later. IS THIS BECAUSE THE MOVIE IS DUMB???” and “Our remake would respect the late Carrie Fisher by including her performance as stock footage, and also we’re completely changing the story. Somehow.”

    Thankfully The Last Jedi is not Attack of the Clones levels of bad, and is in fact comfortably one of the best 3 Star Wars films ever made, so we can all stop worrying.

    #236664

    I think they should reboot Star Wars with an all female cast …. and I still wouldn’t watch it.

    #236665
    tombow
    Participant

    “>Surely you mean Episode VIII?”

    no, he’s just seen the leaked reddit pics of Episode 9’s filming, and he can already tell how SHIT it is

    #236666
    tombow
    Participant

    I didnt like Last Jedi so much at the cinema because I just found it a bit depressing, but I’m starting to appreciate it re-watching it on DVD. I kind of like Luke being non violent, the more I think about it.

    #236667
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    All the stuff with Luke and Rey on the island, and the Rey and Kylo stuff was pretty interesting. Everything else was absolutely mind numbingly dreadful. Who cares about these characters?

    Do you know what was bold and different from Star Wars but still managed to be actually good? Empire. Heaven Sent is a good example of something being different, but still incredible. TLJ sucking arse has nothing to do with it being different. The plot contrivances/unlikable characters/comedy of errors/pacing/four B-plots thing has been covered by many other people much better than I ever could. I don’t want them to remake VIII, I want them to stop.

    #236668
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Also interesting to hear people liking Ridley in VII but not VIII, very odd. Her character was actually better in VIII imo and she actually rather impressed me towards the end of the film, whereas in VII she could have been anybody. The real tragedy is Finn, who was one of my favourites in VII but reduced (further) to comedic relief (like everybody else) for VIII

    #236670
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    I think the anthology films are where you go for new quality Star Wars anyway. Solo is in my opinion the best Star Wars film since 1983 but wasn’t monetarily successful unfortunately.

    I don’t think the majority of Star Wars fans like TLJ either, the uses score on metacritic is 4.5, IMDb’s page is sponsored by TLJ so that’s that out of the window, and of the critic reviews knocking about there’s not one negative one, not one? Does anyone else find that suspicious?

    #236671
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    I don’t think the majority of Star Wars fans like TLJ either, the uses score on metacritic is 4.5, IMDb’s page is sponsored by TLJ so that’s that out of the window, and of the critic reviews knocking about there’s not one negative one, not one? Does anyone else find that suspicious?

    Metacritic user ratings are not a good metric to judge by, because most movie-goers are not Metacritic users, but a dedicated group of detractors will gladly go the effort of bombarding the page with 1 and 0 ratings to deliberately skew the average.

    Also there’s nothing “suspicious” about it being difficult to find negative professional reviews. Sometimes a film is just that good, or sometimes there’s just naturally a disparity between general audience and critical reactions. Pretty normal.

    Who cares about these characters?

    Do you know what was bold and different from Star Wars but still managed to be actually good? Empire.

    Empire was only the second film! It barely had anything to be different from !

    Unless you’re talking about the recent TV series, Empire, in which case I totally agree.

    The real tragedy is Finn, who was one of my favourites in VII but reduced (further) to comedic relief (like everybody else) for VIII

    This statement is absolutely bizarre to me, because if anything I thought that Finn had less comedy to do than in The Force Awakens, and his story in the film – where he starts with selfish motivations, but learns to genuinely care about the plight of the resistance, among other developments – was great.

    Actually I’d say The Last Jedi was bleaker and less comedy-focused than The Force Awakens in general. Don’t know what film they showed you, but this wacky comedy version of The Last Jedi doesn’t exist in my memory. (It still had plenty of funny moments, though, don’t get me wrong.)

    #236672
    Dave
    Participant

    I quite liked The Last Jedi. Hamill in particular is great in it.

    #236673
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Solo was alright, pretty boring on re-watch though. I enjoyed Rogue One at the time but don’t want to watch it again in case the same holds true for that one.

    The problem with the comedy in The Last Jedi is a concept known as bathos, “an effect of anticlimax created by an unintentional lapse in mood from the sublime to the trivial or ridiculous.” Essentially, The Last Jedi never allowed itself time to be serious or thought-provoking, every single instance of pathos in the film is -immediately- undercut with some shit joke that isn’t funny anyway. It’s pathetic. It’s as if they’re afraid of coming off as boring to their audience. A good example of mixing humour with seriousness is Star Trek TOS, none of the jokes in that deflate or ruin serious or dramatic moments. Even a show like Chuck, which is overtly comic, allows itself moments of seriousness and drama from time to time, without having to resort to a lousy joke.

    It’s sort of the same problem some modern Dwarf has. Too many lousy jokes, because if the audience isn’t laughing they’re probably bored, right?

    #236674
    bloodteller
    Participant

    I quite liked the unnamed hackerman they find in the prison in The Last Jedi. Though I was annoyed they never gave him a name. How are people going to know who you’re talking about?

    #236676
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Bit too convenient that they found -another- master codebreaker in the jail of the place they went to find “the only man in the galaxy” who can help them, or whatever. And a bit rich for a Disney® Star Wars™ film to go down the “rich people are evil lol war is bad” route, I felt. I mean, I guess? But you do realise you’re The Disney Corporation?

    #236677
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Benicio himself was decent, though. One of the few twists that was actually interesting

    #236678
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Hamill is great in TLJ, apart from the weird milking section. Best thing by miles.

    Overall though the film was so bad I had to watch it in two sittings because I couldn’t do it all at once.

    While I absolutely think the abuse aimed at the people in it is uncalled for, Rose was shocking, and her plot with Finn is just hard to get behind, you don’t want them to be together, you don’t care.

    The characters that were so good and got me excited in VII were all so radically different in VIII that I just don’t give a shit about most of them now. Rey, Finn, Poe especially.

    And I just can’t like any film that had FUCKING PRINCESS LEIA USING THE FORCE TO FLY LIKE SUPERMAN IN THE VACUUM OF SPACE.

    VII was thinking your football team has the players to mount a promotion challenge, VIII is the chairman selling all your best players on deadline day and now you’re wondering if you’re going to get relegated.

    #236679
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    I don’t think a single person on the planet could argue against TLJ being too long. My mate fell asleep in the cinema and my arse started to hurt. At least TLJ continued the tradition of the longest Star Wars film being the worst one, since Attack of the Clones previously held the record. But I know which one I’d sooner rewatch. (AotC)

    Thoughts about the direction of the character aside, Mark Hamill did an excellent job with what he was given. He even played the milking scene well, his little grimace is genuinely funny.

    Abusing actors for being in a bad film is utterly abhorrent. Rose Tico can drink from my unflushed bog, but Kelly Marie Tran seems nice.

    #236681
    Hamish
    Participant

    I think VIII is an improvement on VII, but honestly all of the prequel films are better.

    *ducks from the barrage of rotten fruit*

    #236682
    Dave
    Participant

    I think VIII is an improvement on VII

    And it’s not often you’ll hear that on this site.

    #236683
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >FUCKING PRINCESS LEIA USING THE FORCE TO FLY LIKE SUPERMAN IN THE VACUUM OF SPACE.

    It’s not flying, it’s using the Force’s brand of telekinesis, and rather than lifting a small object to your hand, it’s dragging yourself to a large object…without resistance because it’s, er, the vacuum of space.

    >Bit too convenient that they found -another- master codebreaker in the jail of the place they went to find “the only man in the galaxy” who can help them, or whatever.

    Bit too convenient that Luke crashlanded on a planet and happened to be 20 feet away from the Jedi master he was looking for? Oh, I guess that one gets a free pass?

    > “rich people are evil lol war is bad” route

    Or maybe the “rich people who profit from war are evil” route.

    And the reason that it got great reactions from critics, is because critics generally haven’t spent 2 years cooking up their own headcanon about where the film should go , what should happen to the characters and how this should leave things for Episode IX. Strangely enough, they are actually quite pleased that the series has finally deviated from a bunch of cyclical tropes that hamper innovative storytelling.

    But whatever, you want to see a 65 year old Luke acting like the Jedi badass he never was in the original trilogy? I’m sure there’s a thousand shitty EU novels to cater for those needs.

    #236684
    bloodteller
    Participant

    I’m probably the only one who thinks this, but I liked Rose. She was cute in that one scene at the beginning, and although she didn’t really get that much development, she was fun to have around and the actress played the character pretty well. I liked her a lot more than Rei (Ray? Rey?) who just pisses me off in every scene she’s in. Really, that’s the problem with VII/VIII for me- Ray and Kylo are present in quite a lot of the films, despite their characters being A. fucking boring and B. played by people who can’t act, so the vast majority of scenes they’re in just leave me pissed off.

    If VIII had just been a film about Rose, Fin, and Unnamed Hackerman going on a big space adventure, I probably would have enjoyed it a lot more since the scenes with the three of them were generally quite good, I thought.

    #236685
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    (Re Ben & Glen’s comments)

    Imagine liking a Star Wars film that undercuts dramatic moments with jokes…

    Seriously though, I genuinely can’t think of any times The Last Jedi does this. I remember jokes for sure, but not any that could be said to have ruined the drama.

    Otherwise:

    – The movie is not too long. I know this because making it shorter would require scenes to be cut, and there aren’t any I’d want to lose.
    – Leia using the force to fly through the vacuum of space is awesome and perfect.
    – “Bit rich for a Disney movie to criticise war profiteering” is one hell of a take. You do know that movies are written by writers, not executives? And even if they weren’t, Disney became massive by selling art, not by selling ICBMs to ISIS (as far as I know).
    – I have no idea what the character of Rose Trico did to warrant such direct bile – so much that Kelly Marie Tran was harassed off social media – but frankly I’m not sure I want to. The Finn/Rose arc was solidly good as far as I’m concerned.
    – Them finding a master codebreaker next to them in jail sure was a coincidence, but Star Wars as a series – and fiction in general – is full of coincidences. It’s the kind of thing you only complain about if you dislike the film for other reasons and want additional points to bolster your argument.

    Short version:

    #236686

    Now I know how it feels to be one of those people who hates Doctor Who.

    #236687
    Dave
    Participant

    I’m looking forward to Episode IX. With JJ Abrams back it will be interesting to see whether it follows any of The Last Jedi’s leads or snaps back to a more Force Awakens style of movie.

    #236691

    Hopefully neither

    #236693
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    A character who has never shown any force powers other than a sort of long range empathy when it comes to her family are suddenly being able to survive in a vacuum and drag herself around is perfect and awesome?

    Ok then.

    Flap Jack says its fine, shut it down, we’ve all got agendas.

    #236695

    I wouldn’t mind her having force powers, but the concept of using the force to float in space is pretty stupid.

    #236696

    Cheers to Flap Jack for the dedication tho

    #236698
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >the concept of using the force to float in space is pretty stupid.

    Well yeah. Because *floating* in space doesn’t require the force at all. Gravity is on short supply.

    >A character who has never shown any force powers other than a sort of long range empathy when it comes to her family are suddenly being able to survive in a vacuum and drag herself around is perfect and awesome?

    I like how you dismiss “long range empathy” as nothing much, when it’s simply evidence that Leia is one of the few force users in the OT and basically means she’s “magic”. As for never showing any force powers; how do you know? She’s known she’s a Skywalker for 30 years. Her use of the force is clearly meant to be instinctual; must like her “long range empathy”. She survives, but immediately falls into a coma afterwards.

    #236700

    You know what I mean.

    If its never demonstrated or even hinted at on-screen can you blame him for not seeing evidence of Leia having force powers in the prior films.

    #236701
    tombow
    Participant

    if you take the whole series as canon, her father Anakin was born of the force so it’s not surprising she would have some subconscious force protection. I did not mind that scene, it was a bit magical and the fantasy side of SW to me.

    #236702
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    No scientific evidence obviously but anecdotally twins in our galaxy have said they have been able to feel when their twin is in trouble and shit, and I’m sure those kind of “I knew my twin had crashed his car” stories have been around for ages, and for TV and film it’s almost a trope, don’t think it was written a precursor to Leia being unveiled as more powerful than actual trained Jedis in a later film.

    #236703

    If I remember correctly, cause I haven’t seen the prequel movies since last decade, but wasn’t Luke and Leia’s mother void of force powers? Is it not as equally plausible for her and Anakin to birth one child with the force and another who lacks it?

    #236705
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    I feel like if you’re coming out of The Last Jedi trying to decide if a character has the right parentage to plausibly use the force, then that’s a sure sign you’ve decided to ignore the core message of the movie.

    Never mind that Leia is Luke’s sister – so if you must go by the genetic argument then she could easily be equally capable as him – Leia explicitly uses the force in no fewer than 3 other films, and enhancing your movement is like Standard Force Power C.

    Leia’s force-sensitivity is so enshrined in the Star Wars canon that Luke straight up says “The force is strong in my family. My father had it, I have it, my sister has it” in the trailer for The Force Awakens and it was no big deal. I even remember people being disappointed after the film itself came out and Leia only used her usual “interstellar empathy” power in it rather than pulling out a lightsaber and bouncing off the walls or what have you.

    Well, Rian Johnson finally let Leia use other types of force ability without it feeling gimmicky. But now this thing is also a reason to complain, apparently. ^_^

    I’ve never heard anyone calling BS over Luke being able to blow up the first Death Star without computer aiming, even though his force powers were nowhere near as foreshadowed as Leia’s.

    I’ve never heard anyone calling BS over Harry Potter being able to blow up his aunt in book 3 despite not doing any “Aunt Inflating” lessons in book 2 either. (OK, I know that was random as hell, but it just popped into my head as a similar example of instinctive, untrained magic usage.)

    Also, I’ll say it’s rather nice to be in a thread where I so wholeheartedly agree with Pete Part Three. It took disagreeing with most of the other people in this thread to achieve it, but still.

    #236707

    Yes, so enshrined in the canon it was only first revealed 38 years after the first movie beyond speculative theories never confirmed in the original three movies prior.

    Even then, if it was foreshadowed, hinted, or even explicitly stated in the original trilogy at any point it doesn’t make the scene of Leia in space any better beyond nodding to continuity.

    #236708
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    >Bit too convenient that Luke crashlanded on a planet and happened to be 20 feet away from the Jedi master he was looking for? Oh, I guess that one gets a free pass?
    Criticising another film is not a defense of anything, ever

    #236709
    Ridley
    Participant

    >I’m sure there’s a thousand shitty EU novels to cater for those needs.

    The Hero with a Thousand Faeces.

    #236710
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    >And the reason that it got great reactions from critics, is because critics generally haven’t spent 2 years cooking up their own headcanon about where the film should go
    Also a strawman, I had no theories going into it, I just wanted something that wasn’t shite, bit tired of hearing this honestly.

    “I love you/I know” is a much better “joke” (if you can call it that) than anything in TLJ, because it was in character and born out of the situation. It wasn’t a joke for the sake of a joke, it was Harrison Ford understanding his character perfectly and ad-libbing an iconic line.

    #236716
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >Criticising another film is not a defense of anything, ever

    Which means that praising another film (“Bold”, “Different”) is irrelevant when critiquing a film to the same standard, then. You were the one who brought up Empire.

    And I’m not criticising Empire at all. Luke crashlanding next to Yoda doesn’t bother me in the slightest, just as the Codebreaker mix-up didn’t in The Last Jedi. If you really think plotholes are the reason you didn’t like a movie, I’ll happily supply plotholes of movies you do like and expose how ridiculous that theory is.

    The ‘bathos’ stuff, the “comedy of errors” critique; all seem very familiar from YouTube videos. They’re interesting, but they don’t seem to be coming from you. Your criticisms seem to be limited to “It was too long!” and “There were plotholes”.

    >Also a strawman, I had no theories going into it, I just wanted something that wasn’t shite, bit tired of hearing this honestly.

    My comment on critics going in without a headcanon, was in response GlenTokyo’s theory that was something suspicious about the good reviews it had recieved from the press. Glen is also concerned about plot threads being dropped that he was invested in, and wants the film to be remade.

    There’s more than you on the other side of the debate, Ben. Please take your accusations of strawmen arguments elsewhere.

    #236717
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Yes, so enshrined in the canon it was only first revealed 38 years after the first movie beyond speculative theories never confirmed in the original three movies prior.

    “First revealed 38 years after the first movie”? She literally uses the force in both Empire and Return, and the latter movie makes it clear that this was the explanation.

    Like, did you need the film to briefly cut away to George Lucas speaking to camera, “Hi guys, just wanted to clarify that the reason Leia can sense the emotions of her friends and relatives across space? That’s because she’s Luke’s sister and can also use the force. You know, like how other force users such as Obi-Wan and Vader are shown to have that exact same ability? Yeah. Anyway, just wanted to make sure nobody thought that this was just a random, unexplained skill. Kthnxbye.”

    Also, R.I.P. Timewave Part Two, a classic username that will live forever in our hearts.

    Criticising another film is not a defense of anything, ever

    I get that, but when you cite that exact film as the perfect counter-example to the film you’re criticising, then I think you forfeit your right to make the “another liked film doing it is not an excuse” argument.

    Unless you were actually talking about the recent TV series, Empire, in which case I totally agree.

    “I love you/I know” is a much better “joke” (if you can call it that) than anything in TLJ, because it was in character and born out of the situation. It wasn’t a joke for the sake of a joke, it was Harrison Ford understanding his character perfectly and ad-libbing an iconic line.

    Well, I definitely laughed when I first saw it! I think the line’s iconic status has possibly made people forget how unexpected it was.

    Saying “the jokes in TESB were perfectly in character, the jokes in TLJ were just random and ruined the drama” is obviously valid if that’s how you read them. I vehemently disagree, but unless you eventually cite actual examples it’s not really possible for me to vouch for them.

    #236724
    tombow
    Participant

    Loathe to say this because I like TLJ and the Leia flying scene, but I’m not sure Lucas had decided on Leia being Luke’s sister or a force user by ESB? You could simply interpret that scene as Luke being able to project his thoughts. Although if it’s canon you want, Leia was a full blown saber wielding Jedi in EU canon for 20+ years.

    #236725
    Dave
    Participant

    It’s pretty explicit by Return Of The Jedi, with the lines “you have that power too, in time you’ll learn to use it as I have”, and “the Force is strong in my family, my father has it, I have it, my sister has it”, and so on.

    It kind of seems like a silly argument by this point. It’s fine to say you don’t like the Leia/Superman scene in The Last Jedi for various reasons – the effect looks odd and artificial, it’s initially unclear that she’s using telekinesis rather than flying, it’s ghoulish for viewers to see her frozen face in space after Carrie Fisher died – there’s lots of problems you could reasonably have with it. But claiming that Leia wasn’t established as being Force-sensitive in the original trilogy is just nonsense.

    Personally, I thought the scene was a bit naff when I first watched it, but on subsequent viewings it didn’t bother me as much.

    #236729
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >I’m not sure Lucas had decided on Leia being Luke’s sister or a force user by ESB?

    I would agree with this, but definitely by ROTJ, it’s established that she’s force-sensitive (she, er, senses stuff). Like the retcon of her being a Skywalker, it could be read that the projection works *because* she’s force sensitive. (Luke and Vader have the same thing going on, after all).

    #236732
    Dave
    Participant

    Also, it seems to me that part of the point of that moment in The Last Jedi is the very fact that we’re seeing Leia use Force powers in a way that hasn’t been seen in the movies before. It plays into the idea of people finding reserves of strength at times of great crisis or danger.

    It wouldn’t be as impressive or meaningful if we’d seen her running around using the Force willy-nilly in The Force Awakens. (The only moment I remember from that movie is her sensing the death of Han Solo.)

    #236742
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    I was using Empire being different to Star Wars as an example of something being different from the source material but still extremely well done, in the context of the argument regarding people disliking The Last Jedi “because it’s different”. It was a separate argument, you see.

    Does a critique of a film have to be wholly original for it to be true? Is that a real opinion? Yes, I got the “comedy of errors” phrase from RedLetterMedia, but I disliked the humour in The Last Jedi, and the film itself, while I was watching it in the cinema. I didn’t get my opinion from them, they put it into words. The videos about VIII came out several weeks/months after the movie, but I hated the movie right from the get-go. Do you understand this?

    Leia wasn’t Luke’s sister by the time of Empire I don’t think, Luke’s sister was going to be another character introduced later and used in VII-IX, or something. But then Lucas decided to wrap everything up with VI. At least that’s -one- of the official stories, of which there are many.

    #236743
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Leia in space is probably the most ridiculous way of showing her latent force powers that anybody could possibly imagine. Ignoring the fact that she got BLOWN THE FUCK UP, it just looks utterly absurd. It was the first moment in the film that made me think “this is going to be shite, isn’t it”? After the “yo momma” prank phone call in the beginning

    #236747
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    No, the most ridiculous way of showing Leia’s latent force powers would be if:

    – She confronts Kylo Ren.
    – She says “The dark side sucks bantha peen, son. I’ll show you the true power of the light side … FORCE SLIME POWERS: ACTIVATE!”.
    – Then she turns around, pulls down her pants, and starts shooting a stream of glowing green goo oiut of her arse, accompanied by a comically exaggerated fart noise track.
    – The green goo floats into the air, and coalesces together to form a 40ft tall replica of Mr. Blobby.
    – The Blobby beast comes alive and starts laughing maniacally, before charging at Kylo, all while shooting pink fireworks out of its eyes – the explosions from which are the only sound loud enough to drown out the sound of “Remember You’re A Womble” playing in the background.
    – Finally, one of the fireworks hits Ren square in the face.
    – The blue smoke clears to reveal a small baby lying in Kylo’s clothes.
    – Still with her pants down, Leia rushes over and picks up the baby.
    – Happy tears in her eyes, she says “… Ben? It’s you! So this is it… a fresh start. This time, I’ll get it right.”
    – She then force pushes baby Ben directly into Blobby’s mouth, and Blobby contentedly chews and swallows him.
    – “Not letting that little fucker get old eniugh to do fascism again” she says, before turning to directly face the camera and winking.

    #236785

    Digging through some news articles and discovered even Dave Lister himself called Dave Dwarf a “reboot”, heh

    I think we want to film more episodes, the reboot went so well

    https://www.irishnews.com/magazine/2017/03/10/news/craig-charles-hopes-red-dwarf-crew-can-make-space-for-arena-tour-960713/

    #236789
    Katydid
    Participant

    There are a lot of kinds of revivals and plenty of words people can use that would actually describe them more specifically, so I don’t see why everyone insists on using “reboot” as a catchall.

    #236790
    Katydid
    Participant

    And I thought the Last Jedi was an incoherent mess of a movie that was too busy trying to subvert audience expectations it couldn’t be bothered to actually bring any kind of satisfying narrative resolution

    #236791
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    What specific thing were you hoping to resolve in this; the middle part of a trilogy?

    Was it Luke’s story? Luke, who spends much of the film coming to terms with the responsibility of failing Kylo Ren, and struggles to reconcile the man he is with the legend that surrounds him. He responds to Leia’s call when she needs him most, faces down the First Order, and allows the rebels to escape. In doing so, he becomes the legend that will inspire the next generation by pulling off the biggest force trick of all.

    Was it Rey’s story? At the beginning of the movie, Rey attempts to give the lightsaber to Luke. She wants to pass the baton back to the old generation, so he’ll swoop in and end the war. Luke knows he can’t do this (see above). The first 2/3 of this movie are about Rey coming to terms with the fact that *she* is the protagonist, and this responsibility now falls to her. By the finale, we finally have her ready to be take the reins. Lucky the story isn’t over…

    Was it Poe’s story? Poe, who in The Force Awakens was simply a hotshot pilot who could supposedly do no wrong, but in this movie learns the cost of irresponsible actions and what being a true leader is. He wants to win whatever the cost, but this movie shows what the cost is. He learns a lesson from Holdo and Leia. As a result, it’s him who tells Finn that his intended self-sacrifice is stupidity, and it’s him who twigs that Luke is creating a diversion. He becomes the leader he thinks he is at the beginning of the movie, by leading the rebels to escape.

    Was it Finn’s story? Finn, who spent the entirety of The Force Awakens chasing Rey and his own selfish goals. In this movie, he actually *joins* the Resistance as he realises what they’re fighting for. By the end of the movie, he’s intent on stupidly sacrificing himself. His story is not over. He’s now where Poe was at the start of VIII.

    Incoherent? The film is a lesson in how to handle multiple characters arcs.

    The only way The Last Jedi subverted my expectations was by being so much more interesting than I ever could have hoped after decades of this series stagnating.

    If you’re disappointed the following happened:

    * A Jedi Master sacrifices himself to allow his friends to escape
    * The protagonist learns an upsetting truth about their parents
    * The key baddie kills his boss before we learn anything significant about him.

    I’m a bit confused as to what your expectations of a Star Wars movie are.

    #236792
    NoFro
    Participant

    I did not like VIII at the cinema (with the caveat that I did go to a midnight showing so was maybe not in the ideal movie watching mood) but I’m a stupid Star Wars fan so have bought the 4K disc to revisit. I’m looking forward to rewatching it and hopefully liking it a lot more though my main concern is that the humour will still be crap and undermine serious moments and entire characters. Also, my partner hasn’t seen it yet so I will be interested to see what she thinks. She really liked TFA – I thought TFA was pretty good.

    I can’t say I met anyone who really liked VIII when it first came out, and every pre-Christmas 2017 social event seemed to have at least one moment where someone brought it up. Felt like I spoke with most types of viewer as well: people who have been watching since ’77, people who grew up with prequels, people who love prequels, hate prequels, don’t really give a shit about Star Wars and just saw it as “a movie”, TFA lovers, TFA haters. Even those who did like it, I had to ask their thoughts about Canto Bight, Space Leia and Captain Phasma and things that seemed to be universally controversial and even then they caveated that those bits weren’t so good. I accept that there are a lot of people who I obviously didn’t speak to who really do love VIII though. Hopefully I’ll become one of those people through another viewing.

    Also re: Leia in space – absolutely fine as a concept. Execution was naff.

    Also also, most people I spoke to, lovers and haters, mentioned that the Rey/Kylo fight was awesome. This is one part I have revisited through YouTube as I didn’t get the hype and yeah… it is terribly choreographed.

    #236793
    Katydid
    Participant

    I’m not even going to try to debate this, but much more knowledgeable people than me have torn this film apart in ways that align with my thoughts watching it.

    #236794

    I’ll take your word for it. Pete’s points refute a lot of the criticism I’ve seen online. I found the film unimpressive when I first saw it. I just found it a bit boring, but there’s nothing to be offended by in terms of storytelling. A lot of people are being ridiculous about it. While browsing HMV in Wimbledon there was a guy working there who said to two different customers “they killed Star Wars!” which is a pretty laughable thing to say. At least they took the “last” one out of the hands of the guy who made the fucking Book of Henry.

    I would watch a reboot of Red Dwarf with an all female cast and I thank the creator that I don’t have to cast it.

    #236799
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    > the humour will still be crap and undermine serious moments and entire characters
    Glad I’m not the only one

    Almost everybody I’ve spoken to irl disliked the film as well, and we’ve had some pretty lengthy and intense discussions about exactly why we think it didn’t work, including some concepts which I haven’t seen come up in online discussion much. For example, the universe of the sequels feels incredibly small, like everything takes place over a couple of days in a handful of locations. The OT, and especially the prequels for all their faults, were epics, taking place over several years and over a vast array of diverse locations. This is one area in which I think the sequels are genuinely lacking, worldbuilding. Can anybody explain the power dynamic between the First Order and the New Republic without referring to non-movie material?

    >Also re: Leia in space – absolutely fine as a concept. Execution was naff.
    Maybe. Maybe.

    >Rey/Kylo fight
    Again, a nice idea executed poorly. A director like Tarantino or Kubrick or somebody would have done more takes and got the choreography done much better, I should think. Johnson (and potentially Ridley) don’t seem up to it.

    Safe to say TLJ killed all interest I have in the sequel trilogy, I’m sure I’ll check out IX out of brand loyalty and some deep seated hope that JJ might just turn it all around at the last moment. I’m not even excited by the prospect of an Obi Wan trilogy or whatever if VIII and Solo is the best the Disney team can come up with at this time.

    #236804
    NoFro
    Participant

    The fight could definitely have done with a few more takes. I didn’t feel like I was watching the characters act defensively; I felt like I was watching the actors work their way through the choreography. Admittedly Driver did a better job than Ridley.

    And the choreography is horrible. Guards keep ducking out of shot to stand around and do nothing(!?), leaving their colleagues to fight 1 on 1 with Ren/Rey. At one point Rey meekly kicks one guard and three fly backwards. A weapon is CG’d out at one point because if it was kept in Rey would have had to have been sliced across the stomach. Yeesh.

    #236809
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Yeah, it really is a clusterfuck. Again, a nice -idea- to do a fight scene with long shots like that, but it didn’t pan out. Have you seen the videos where they sync up the TLJ fight with different pop songs? The Britney Spears – Toxic one is incredible.

    Just watching it again, right off the bat that guard on the left just starts spinning like fuck when in reality he should be absolutely pummeling Rey to death, jeez. They aren’t even using any force powers or anything to make it more plausible that they could win such a fight. Also I don’t want to see anybody referencing the fight choreography in any other movie as a defense as again, that’s not what the discussion is about.

    #236814
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Also I don’t want to see anybody referencing the fight choreography in any other movie as a defense as again, that’s not what the discussion is about.

    Exactly! The discussion is about an all-female Red Dwarf reboot, innit. Anyone got any new casting ideas? My suggestions:

    Lister – Maisie Richardson-Sellers
    Rimmer – Daisy Ridley
    Cat – Michaela Coel
    Kryten – Gwendoline Christie
    Holly – Amanda Lawrence
    Kochanski – Felicity Jones
    Hollister – Laura Dern

    #236815
    Katydid
    Participant

    Yeah, the world building was a thing that was really getting to me. I feel like I have no idea how the First Order even got into power in the first place. They just kind of did. The fact that Snoke wasn’t important just leaves more questions unanswered.

    I mean everyone is laughing and celebrating at the end when BASICALLY EVERYONE THEY KNOW IS DEAD. You’d think there’d be some solemn reflection on the trauma we just went through, but like so much of The Last Jedi it feels like you’re supposed to accept what it presents at face value and not think about it. Because if you just accept the film at face value it is a gorgeous movie with some good action. It just completely crumbles under analysis, unless you leave out all the shit that didn’t make sense and only focus on what it was trying to do.

    And I really do feel like a lot of the time the film’s defenders just don’t see the reams of logical inconsistencies. I’m not expecting the film to be perfect, but the sheer amount of stuff that doesn’t add up is pretty astounding if you sit down and actually question the logic of events as they transpire. I’ve been watching all sorts of different reviews and they always manage to find something new to say, and Plinkett’s suddenly comes out and unleashes a whole host of other problems I hadn’t seen addressed elsewhere. He made some very good points that put into words things I felt but hadn’t analyzed the film enough to really articulate. Not even minor points, really major things that could resolve the entire story in seconds.

    But the thing that really bothers me is I feel I get attacked for not liking the film; that I get grouped in those crazy fanboy jackasses who drove the actress who plays Rose off Twitter because they can’t differentiate fantasy and reality. I’m really not a fanboy. I honestly I have only seen the original trilogy once, and Episode VII and Rogue One. I’m not approaching this from the perspective I would on Red Dwarf where I’m fucking obsessed and know everything about the production and lore. I’m really an outsider when it comes to Star Wars, and I saw the initial backlash against the film and kind of accepted the idea that it was just stupid fanboys hating something different.

    But then I watched it, and it just failed to engage me as a film. I didn’t find it interesting, downright boring at times, and I didn’t feel like it was actually at the level of sophistication it was trying to appear. It didn’t fly over my head, I understood all the grey morality and rampant narrative subversion and what have you that it was trying to pull, I just don’t think it succeeded at it. The things that people point to when they say it was a good movie, I don’t think that the film actually managed to pull off what they’re saying it did – but it certainly _looked_ like it. It just felt…I guess the only way to put it is faux-intellectual. It showed a pretty picture but didn’t have much substance.

    And I don’t want anyone to feel like I’m judging them for liking the movie in the same way I wouldn’t want to be judged for not liking it. It’s just really hard to have a civil discussion about it when tempers get so inflamed, and especially when I feel like I can’t even voice my opinion without being attacked.

    I don’t think think I’m going to convince anyone who liked it that it wasn’t good, and more power to them. They really win, because they’re the ones with a new Star Wars movie they really love. I’m the one who’s stuck sitting here without a new movie to enjoy. All I really want is my perspective to not be dismissed as utterly invalid, but I guess I’m kind of shutting down people who liked the movie inherently. I don’t know. I really don’t want to fight about it, I just want to be able to say what I think, and I’ve been deliberately dancing around actually going into specifics because the specifics don’t really matter. It’s the conglomerate of them all, the experience of the entire film. I clearly had a very different experience from other people. I don’t want to dismiss the positives they saw in the film, but I guess I just they wouldn’t dismiss the negatives I see either,

    God, really, when are they going to announce Red Dwarf XIII? Please just fucking announce it so we can have it next Fall. I really don’t want to have to wait until 2020.

    #236816
    Warbodog
    Member

    Reboots/revivals I’ve loved (past decade): Battlestar Galactica (didn’t see original), Doctor Who series 5 (into 6, then back to not really being my thing again), every new Alan Partridge cross-platform thing written with the Gibbonses (who I just found out come from my hometown. Someone finally had to).

    Reboots/revivals that have been a waste of time: The X-Files (just one keeper), Twin Peaks, Jonathan Creek series 5 (more recent special was okay), The League of Gentlemen (dull fan service), Abrams Trek (I’m not the audience though).

    Dave Dwarf’s alright.

    #236817
    Warbodog
    Member

    Star Trek: Discovery’s a spin-off, not a revival or reboot. But I was more interested in that than any Trek since DS9 ended. The lazy fan service is putting me off continuing though.

    Not much of a Star Wars guy (only have enthusiasm for IV & V), but I at least found the new films watchable, unlike the prequels which I remember being more like watching my brother play a PS2 game than a cinematic experience. Haven’t bothered with extracurricular stuff like Rogue One or watching people dissect films I don’t really care about though.

    #236818

    God, really, when are they going to announce Red Dwarf XIII? Please just fucking announce it so we can have it next Fall. I really don’t want to have to wait until 2020.

    This x infinity.

    Sifting the topic away from Star Wars, which I think is in everybody’s best interest, why are we hearing almost nothing yet about a new series from UKTV or Dave? I’m expecting an announcement or some kind of update at Dimension Jump this October from Doug regarding XIII, cause we haven’t had new Red Dwarf filmed since early 2016.

    I’m certain Doug is working hard to get new stuff commissioned, but let’s speed it along a bit m8. Let’s get XIII, a crossover with a certain popular show on Dave, and maybe a tv special done before 2021 comes around.

    #236820
    tombow
    Participant

    “The X-Files (just one keeper)”

    I know, the lizard man ep was great, wasn’t it.

    #236821
    Warbodog
    Member

    Yeah, I’ve rewatched it since. I found Darin Morgan’s season 11 one enjoyable, but more like a tribute to his other, better ones.

    #236822
    Ridley
    Participant

    >I’ve been watching all sorts of different reviews and they always manage to find something new to say, and Plinkett’s suddenly comes out and unleashes a whole host of other problems I hadn’t seen addressed elsewhere. He made some very good points that put into words things I felt but hadn’t analyzed the film enough to really articulate. Not even minor points, really major things that could resolve the entire story in seconds.

    Personally, I thought he was being surprisingly petty and deliberately missing the point in places.

    Luke’s stalling is what saves the day. When Leia gives up, Luke steps back into his own legend and keeps hope alive.
    That kid wielding the Force is the movie saying it’s not just about midichlorian breeding after all.
    Rey already has the books, Yoda says so.
    Why assume Leia was taught nothing by Luke?
    And so on.

    #236835
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    The thing about Plinkett’s review is he didn’t want to waste his/our time by going over the same tired old points that thousands of internet commenters and dozens of video essays had already done to death, so tried to cover new, fresh ground. He did well on that front, especially with the Comedy of Errors bit, but people looking for a prequel-review-tier teardown of the movie are left wanting.

    The Wine Tasting skit is brilliant, though. The problem with Rian Johnson’s subversion is that he thinks just subverting our expectations for the sake of it is satisfying and worthwhile. It isn’t. After the initial shock factor (and once you realise halfway through the movie just what he is doing, making the later twists ironically predictable), you realise just how hollow and unimportant everything is, and how Johnson failed to plug the gaps and replace predictability with something genuinely more interesting. I appreciated Rey’s lineage being unimportant, but Snoke’s death was a huge eyeroll. When worldbuilding is a massive problem in your trilogy and you decide to make the one character who could almost potentially be interesting a nobody, you’re not exactly making your universe MORE interesting. There isn’t even any mystery, there’s fucking nothing. And that’s the point. And that’s shitty.

    #236836
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Also did Rian Johnson watch The Empire Strikes Back? He knows that Yoda was only acting like a goofy prick to test Luke, right? Yoda being a goofy prick in TLJ is bizarre. And the puppet looks like shit, people like to cream themselves over the practical effects of the sequels despite TFA using more CGI than TPM, and a bunch of the puppets/animatronics looking like cartoony bullshit. Lucas himself couldn’t make a convincing Yoda puppet for Episode I either so I gather it’s pretty difficult, to be fair. There was also some really shoddy compositing during the Crait battle, one shot of Finn in his cockpit in particular looked abhorrent if I remember rightly.

    One of the first things people who criticise the film say is “hey at least it looks incredible!”, but does it? The colours look really shitty, the casino planet and the animals on it look dreadful and the throne room fight looks like a 2000s music video.

    #236866
    Ridley
    Participant

    The Yoda puppet likes fine in behind the scenes footage eye em oh. Whatever they did to it in the film makes it look like CGI.

    #236867
    Ridley
    Participant

    And looks fine.

    I do miss the colour of the prequels. The sequel aliens tend to be various earth tones.

    #236872
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    I love a lot of what RLM does, but their Half in the Bag on The Last Jedi from December 2017 was unfocused and the recent Plinkett review was no better. It was one of the more entertaining negative reviews of the film but unfortunately it descended into nitpicking, to the point where I might as well have been watching one of Mauler’s terrible “reviews”. (Ben; one for your subs, if it’s not their already),

    I rewatched the (very brief) Plinkett Rogue One review recently. The main focus of that is a triangle which says that a Star Wars film should have Story/Character/Emotion. I wholeheartedly agree that, on that criteria, Rogue One is a pile of wank. By that logic, however, The Last Jedi, however, earns a big fat tick in every corner. So go figure.

    I’ll skip over the comments about figh choreography and CGI because, well, they’re about fight choreography and CGI.

    Snoke dying saves us from a rerun of the Emperor/Vader dynamic in Return if the Jedi. Been there, done that. The only world building I care about is how these characters relate to each other, and how Kylo Ren relates to Snoke was the same tropey Master/Apprentice stuff that we’ve already seen. Snoke was a mad old Sith guy who was wounded in the Clone Wars on the battle of Yatanta IV in the year 17ABY who travelled to Mustapha to make a pilgrimage to I’m making this up, by the way, because who the fuck really cares? Positioning the whiny little butthurt Vader fanboy as the true villain of the piece is much more interesting, because he has an established relationship with the heroes.

    #236881
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    I’m really glad this turned into a debate about the merits of The Last Jedi. There really hasn’t been enough discussion of that movie online, and this – a thread about whether or not we’d watch an all-female Red Dwarf reboot or not – certainly seems like the best place for such a discussion to occur.

    #236882
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Half in the Bag is not the place you go for in depth, focused discussion honestly, it’s just two or sometimes three dudes rambling about whatever movie they just saw.

    I don’t give a fuck about Rogue One honestly, it’s the Disney Wars film I enjoyed the most but that really is damning with faint praise.

    >Snoke dying saves us from a rerun of the Emperor/Vader dynamic in Return if the Jedi.
    Yeah we just got it in VIII instead, complete with looking out a window at a space battle and offering your apprentice a difficult choice. Episode III was more subtle with its riffing on the throne room in VI and that was supposed to be obvious.

    Not caring about worldbuilding is just absolutely bizarre. I don’t care how the sequel characters relate to each other because I don’t care about the sequel characters. Kylo Ren was almost interesting in VII, and I appreciated the moment where he destroys his helmet near the beginning, it was a nice piece of symbolism.

    But subtlety is not a strength of Rian Johnson. If he had left it there, if that one scene of Kylo destroying his helmet was the only thing in the movie about letting go of the past etc, it would have been a nice theme. But it went beyond symbolism. Eventually the characters began LITERALLY STATING to each other that they should forget the past. That is shocking writing. It is “from my point of view the Jedi are evil”, “I wish I could just wish away my feelings” tier writing. And it’s hideous how the movie attempts to come up with catchphrases or through lines or whatever, with the constant “kill the past lmao”, “the fire that lights a spark that blah blah”, “everything you just said is wrong”, just atrocious stuff.

    Forget the past, kill it if you have to, but don’t forget to go see Han Solo: An Old Character From The Past in four month’s time

    #236883
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Also did Rian Johnson watch The Empire Strikes Back? He knows that Yoda was only acting like a goofy prick to test Luke, right? Yoda being a goofy prick in TLJ is bizarre.

    Ah, yes, it’s accepted fact that if someone’s behaves like a goofy prick for a particular reason, then they can’t possibly ever act like a goofy prick for any other reason. Like someone doing a fake sarcastic laugh at a bad joke, then later doing a real laugh at a good joke. Doesn’t happen.

    Maybe Yoda’s initial goofiness to Luke wasn’t even just an act, and he was genuinely enjoying screwing around with him, just as he was enjoying screwing around with him in TLJ… ? Nah, you’re right, it’s completely unbelievable and Rian Johnson must just be stupid.

    *CinemaSins “Sin Added” sound effect plays*

    I love a lot of what RLM does, but their Half in the Bag on The Last Jedi from December 2017 was unfocused and the recent Plinkett review was no better.

    The Half in the Bag review of The Last Jedi was so bad. They just went back and forth between making criticisms that would apply equally or more to The Empire Strikes back, and Rich Evans sarcastically going “No don’t you see that doesn’t matter because it subverts expectations, which automatically makes it amaaaaazing!”, and I’m like BITCH, maybe actually read the articles and essays you’re so desperate to mock, don’t just reference the headlines and pretend that was the entire argument.

    So, from that it was clear that the Plinkett review would not be worth my time. I even stopped watching Half in the Bag, because for the next few episodes they couldn’t stop themselves from taking every possible opportunity to make jabs at The Last Jedi. It just gets tiring if you’re interested in their opinions on unrelated films, but they keep going off track to remind you of one of their worst videos.

    It’s such a shame, because I know from their past work that they can do so much better than this hackery. Oh well.

    Best of the Worst is still pretty good, though!

    #236885
    Ridley
    Participant

    >I’m really glad this turned into a debate about the merits of The Last Jedi.

    We love going on about VIII.

    It’s not like the question was posed with sincerity.

    #236887
    tombow
    Participant

    No, I not watch a Red Dwarf reboot with a female cast. I would of course, simply out of curiosity, check out ANY version or remake of Dwarf – even if they made one cast completely of American youtube alt-right commentators, I would check it out simply for the sake of being informed on Dwarf history. But women in the posse would upset me too much. It’s BOYS from the Dwarf people.

    #236889
    Ridley
    Participant

    It’s not like the question was posed with sincerity.

    #236893
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    No, I not watch a Red Dwarf reboot with a female cast. I would of course, simply out of curiosity, check out ANY version or remake of Dwarf – even if they made one cast completely of American youtube alt-right commentators, I would check it out simply for the sake of being informed on Dwarf history. But women in the posse would upset me too much. It’s BOYS from the Dwarf people.

    “Boys From The Dwarf” is just a fun catchphrase that’s uttered only very occasionally, it’s not the title. There’s nothing in the core premise of Red Dwarf that requires the characters to be male.

    I did initially misread your post and thought you said you’d actually prefer the cast to be alt-right American YouTubers than women, which was even more alarming.

    #236896
    tombow
    Participant

    sorry bad joke

    #236902
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Ah, that’s OK tombow. It’s not like you did something truly evil, like hating The Last Jedi.

    #236919
    NoFro
    Participant

    STAR WARS VIII’S A BIG PILE OF SHIT.

    #236925
    tombow
    Participant

    Sacred Jedi Texts. That should be good for a
    couple of hours.

    Three days without food, and the walls of civilisation come
    tumbling down!

    What d’you mean?

    Been on the island for a few years, and you’ve turned into a barbarian.

    I’m just burning a book!

    It’s not just a book. It’s the only copy of probably the
    greatest work in Jedi literature. Probably the only copy left in
    the entire universe, and you’re quite happy to toss it on the fire to
    keep your little mitts warm for fifteen minutes?

    There’s nothing else to burn.

    That’s it, then, is it? Goodbye Darth Bane? Farewell Revan?
    Toodle-pip Nomi Sunrider?

    Have you ever read any of it?

    I’ve played Knights of the Old Republic. That’s based on one of them.

    Yeah, but have you actually read any?

    Not all the way through, no. I can quote some, though.

    Go on, then.

    “There is no emotion; there is peace. ” (Long pause.) That’s all I can
    remember.

    Where’s that from, then?

    Master Vandar Tokare, you moron. The speech that he does at the
    beginning. (Declaims) “No emotion…” something something something. It’s
    brilliant writing. It really is. Unforgettable.

    OK, I’ll save it till last. (Holds up another.) Marvel’s Leia Pin-Ups. Is it
    OK if I burn Marvel’s Leia Pin-Ups.?

    Save page sixty-one.

    #236927
    Jawscvmcdia
    Participant

    >There’s nothing else to burn.

    This man can talk, do you know what I mean?!

    #236941
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Ha, I took approximately 10 seconds too long to realise what you were doing there. Perfect.

    #236942
    Dave
    Participant

    Yes, that was very good.

    #236946
    tombow
    Participant

    thanks friends

    #237100

    God, really, when are they going to announce Red Dwarf XIII? Please just fucking announce it so we can have it next Fall. I really don’t want to have to wait until 2020.

    Doug’s just been announced for this year’s Dimension Jump, so I’m guessing then.

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