Did you spoil Buffy the Vampire Slayer? – Watchers!

[Ben Paddon]

I didn’t actually want to discuss Buffy the Vampire Slayer (although season eight is proving to be very good so far), but this thread title was begging to be brought into existence/

Topic

[Dave]

>and a third on the way called A Shepherd?s Tale. Guess what that ones about!

Daffodils?

[Andrew]

There’s no need to hold Firefly back until after Buffy, it’ll work just fine on its own, but yeah, do watch the TV series before the follow-up movie.

Buffy and Angel exist in tandem, Buffy four lines up with Angel series one, so in an ideal world you’d alternate one episode of each from that point on.

[ChrisM]

>and a third on the way called A Shepherd?s Tale. Guess what that ones about!

Daffodils?

It’s a sordid tale of mutton bestiality and wool fetish actually.

[Dave]

I think Andrew is on to something:

If you watch the ‘high spots’ like The Zeppo, Hush, The Body, Once More With Feeling, Normal Again, Conversations With Dead People, the various apocalypses or season finales, only work because you give a shit about the characters in the first place. So if someone tries to win you over with, for example, a musical episode that is so entrenched in the overall story of its season that it almost doesn’t work in isolation or a silent episode that only hits home because you are so used to being amazed by wonderful dialogue.

It sounds a little like Marleen views Buffy like a Saved By The Bell with monsters, I recommend you watch episodes like Lie To Me, Phases, Earshot & Fear Itself undubbed and then reassess.

[Andrew]

Oh yes, Earshot’s a good call.

[Jonathan Capps]

Marleen current opinion of Buffy is exactly the same as mine was before I properly gave it a chance. Andrew’s opinion is now far closer to how I feel about it now. I’m almost entirely sure you’re going to love it, Marleen.

[Andrew]

> But I?ve never been more underwhelmed by a TV Programme than Firefly (can you ever be just ?whelmed??).

Out of curiosity, did you start at the beginning? Because I remain adamant that the front half is a bit odf a cut-and-shut job, better in retrospect than as a way in – eps like Our Mrs Reynolds, Out Of Gas, Arial, Trash and Objects in Space showed how great things could have become.

[Jonathan Capps]

True, the pilot is far from the height of the show’s quality, but surely ANYONE could see the potential in the pilot and give the show an extended chance? I did. My incredibly cynical friend did. Surely people *know* that pilot are very rarely as good as the rest of the series? This is why I never like introducing people to a show with a strong but out of sequence episode.

[Andrew]

> Surely people *know* that pilot are very rarely as good as the rest of the series?

Sure. Some people. But you’re talking about people like us, and they ain’t all that. Most won’t GIVE a series two episodes to get good. Certainly not five or ten. Remember how long before I quit Lost? That’s not normal. When you add to that the Buffy/Firefly issue I had with my friend (she wasn’t starting off neutral, she was anti and needed turning around), it’s awfully risky to have a clunky pilot.

You see Firefly’s opening two-parter and go “It’s Whedon, and the potential’s there”. Others go “Christ I’m bored”. Giving a thing a chance only works if you WANT it to work. Indifference, or full-on negative will, won’t be beaten by a mishapen episode as a starter.

I maintain that Firefly’s opening made a huge mistake in going for 9 characters right out of the box. Too much too fast. And the main story isn’t particularly special – get cargo, do deal, be double-crossed. The network weren’t RIGHT to dump it from the first broadcast, but they were right in that it was a clunky start to a show. It’s got glimmers, it’s not BAD telly, but it’s a long way shy of working.

Not that The Train Job did much better…

[ChrisM]

I remain adamant that the front half is a bit odf a cut-and-shut job, better in retrospect than as a way in – eps like Our Mrs Reynolds, Out Of Gas, Arial, Trash and Objects in Space showed how great things could have become.

They were definitely amongst the best episodes. With the possible exception of Out of Gas for me, but that’s a personal preference. It was interesting in a back-story way, just not that big a deal for me. I don’t think I dislike any of them though.

That being said, I think the order of episodes as they are set out on the DVD is pretty much spot on. I saw them all in order and I thought the first episodes did fine in introducing the show. I don’t quite understand the complaints about starting with The Train Job either.

Some spoilers ahead:

Sure, Serenity (the pilot I mean not the film) is the best episode to start with, as it came first, but The Train job is not bad as a second choice introductory episode. (Except in wondering how the Tams got on the boat of course, but you could say that about all the characters.)

It was good at distilling what the show was about, what the characters do, the tone, that interesting mix of western and sci-fi (particularly the bar fight at the start, and the ship gag), the fact they’ll break the law but only go so far etc. And you get to see a space ship utilized in robbing a train. Great stuff! Oh and the infamous bit with the engine at the end. Slightly disturbing in such a cold blooded act from one of the main heroes, yet very funny.

Our Mrs Reynolds was great. Probably better than the Train job, but better as an introduction to the whole arc? Not really. It’s much better to get to know the characters first, then suddenly slap the captain with a surprise wife.

Objects in Space, that should definitely come last. Great episode, but that whole philosophical slant, and of course the journey of a particular character, I won’t spoil here, best left to the end.

Edit- ok, I started my big post before that other couple of posts, so I didn’t take the arguments there into account. I think my reasoning stands well though.

[Andrew]

> I don?t quite understand the complaints about starting with The Train Job either.

Read The Train Job Didn’t Do the Job by Keith R.A. DeCandido – it’s in the Finding Serentity essay collection, and it’s pretty spot-on.

Of course it’s not ‘bad’ as a set-up episode – it was WRITTEN to be a set-up episode. But it hardly excels at everything Firefly does best. It’s just okay at ‘explaining stuff’. That’s not a ‘win people over’ show, it’s an ‘explain things’ show. And nobody goes to TV for the exposition.

[Pete Part Three]

>Out of curiosity, did you start at the beginning?

I’m pretty sure I did and I definitely watched them all, followed by Serenity. I was fully prepared to love it…but found it dull and the characters uninteresting.

[Seb Patrick]

Back to the most important and insightful discussion, I’ve realised I need to rethink something I said earlier.

Alyson Hannigan >> Jenny Calendar >> Eliza Dushku > Sarah Michelle Gellar (seasons one and two) > Amy Acker > Charisma Carpenter > Amber Benson > Sarah Michelle Gellar (later seasons) > Emma Caulfield

[Ben Paddon]

Sarah Michelle Gellar is a miserable cowbag. A truly unpleasant person. She’s always grumpy and frowning about something – she seems incapable of smiling when not in character.

With that in mind, she has been wonderfully cast as the lead in the movie adaptation of American McGee’s Alice.

[John Hoare]

I’ve just finished Buffy Season 4.

Two things:

b) So, tbe ending of Primeval, with super-powerful golden-eyed Buffy… so that’s where RTD got the ending of Parting of the Ways from!

b) TARA AND WILLOW IN XANDERS DREAM YES PLEASE NOW. (And on a less pathetic note – although admittedly not by much – Amber Benson has a gorgeous back in the scene where Willow is painting her…)

[Pete Part Three]

What happened to “a)” John? ;-)

I’m not that keen on ending the season with Restless, but this has always been one of my favourite lines:

Giles : In just a few moments that curtain is going to open on our very first production. Now, everyone that Willow’s ever met … is out in that audience, including all of us.

Have finally relented and bought the Season 8 omnibus. Comics really aren’t my bag but I’m too curious to resist any longer. Thoughts once I get a chance to read it (just finishing season 5 on DVD).

[Dave]

I love Restless, the idea of a coda after all the madness of a big finale, you’ve just saved the world, now what do you do?

>Amber Benson has a gorgeous back

Her front isn’t so bad.

[John Hoare]

She has surprisingly large tits.

Restless also contains my favourite use of back projection EVER.

[Andrew]

> Restless also contains my favourite use of back projection EVER.

Greenscreen, surely? (If you’re talking about the ice cream truck.) Whedon wanted rear-projection, but couldn’t get it…

[John Hoare]

Ah, I was going by the script! I bow to your greater knowledge. It’s a pretty good recreation to my eyes, but then I don’t know a huge amount about that kind of thing.

[Dave]

> Restless also contains my favourite use of back projection EVER.

It sure looks like paint to me.

[Author]

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