Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum Doctor Who – End of Time Broadcast Discussion

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  • #6106
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster
    #107268
    Dessie
    Participant

    Ok does anyone mind if i repost my last post in the other thread?

    I thought the pacing was a bit off. I understand it was setting up the finale but i was sat wishing something more would happen. I?m not a huge fan of everyone being turned into the master either, it?s just a strange idea. Simm was fantastic though and the teaser for the next episode really has me excited. I just expected more bang from this episode. Also how many times will Simm have to of changed his clothes when making that episode?

    Also does anyone think we could see a forced regeneration by the timelords?

    #107269
    Nick R
    Participant

    A very weird episode. Started off all portentious and epic and doom-laden with all the nightmares/resurrection-science-spell/final-showdown-in-a-shipyard/wistful-talk-in-the-cafe scenes, and then settled down enough for a little bit of comedy (“Welcome aboard!”; “Cactus!”), threw in a nod to Saint Obama, and finished with a double-whammy of a cliffhanger that was utterly amazing in a WTF batshit insane sort of way.

    Great fun!

    #107270
    Andrew
    Participant

    It does feel like a set-up to ‘In order that the Master’s process be reversed, Doctor, you have to give up your life’. Only less direct. But every time I second-guess RTD, I’m proved wrong. That’s the value of his brilliant, erratic energy. The flaws are the price you pay for the joyous unpredictability.

    All good fun stuff today. Set-up more than drama – that perfectly-performed cafe scene aside – and the super-powered Master was terrfying. A planet of Masters is, oddly, less chilling, and I fear for the quick-fix, reset-button solution that must be coming. But it’s an impressive show that can induce so many ‘eep!’ responses in an hour, and whose pace never flags. (Another ten minutes to breathe would have been absolutely welcome, in fact.)

    #107271
    NitroChrisUK
    Participant

    daft question now

    actually i have answered it by asking it .. i was going to say are all the masters just humans in the masters likeness or are they all time lord masters but considering at this point the human race does not exist then that pretty much answers itself.

    remind you of agent smith in the matrix much?

    Thought it was a great episode. as others have said more of a build up to next week but still very good. I think we may get a nice story telling of what happend in the time war, how the doctor killed all the time lords and will have to be punished.(again)
    but maybe that is what they want us to think.

    should be fun finding out.

    #107272
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    Distinctly underwhelmed by that to be honest. Seemed more than a little clunky.

    #107274
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    I couldn’t really give that much of a toss about the preceding 59 minutes or so (in general, though: very good moments, a little flawed as a whole). It was all about the Time Lords, for me. I’ve been waiting four years for this. I know there are those who disagree, but I honestly think it’s time – I want Gallifrey and the Panopticon and the Prydonian Chapter and the Seal of Rassilon and Omega (WHO IS CLEARLY TIMOTHY DALTON BY THE WAY) and all the rest of it.

    Also, they’ve put the first couple of minutes of part two on the BBC site. I watched about twenty seconds, done a massive JAW DROP, then decided I didn’t want to ruin next week’s “watching it entirely fresh” experience any more.

    #107275
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    This too.

    #107276
    hummingbird
    Participant

    There seemed to be a deliberately odd feel to this episode. Not that that’s a bad thing; it feels like we’re being set up for a great finale. Very exciting. I love that I haven’t the faintest clue where this is all going now.

    #107277
    JamesTC
    Participant

    The first 30 minutes couldn’t have been more dissapointing. Open with clips of ‘Last of the Time Lords’ and remind me how much I hated the previous story.
    The Master’s return was shite, it was magic, it wasn’t sci-fi in anyway, they fucking used the word potions.
    The Master being a crazy fucked up monster was also quite naff, him jumping up really high and shooting laser bolts was just stupid.
    I don’t find horny granny jokes funny.

    After the soldiers took the Master the episode picked up. At all this time I kept expecting the gate to activate and return Gallifrey but it didn’t, it just fucked up all the humans and you’d think because I hate this incarnation of the Master so much that I’d hate the end but you know what? I thought it was fucking funny and I put it all down to Simm, him as Obama was just fantastic, giving himself cheers and thumbs up, loved it.

    Then the Time Lords returned and a shite To Be Continued appeared and a weird next time trailer.

    On the whole it is alot better than my expectations.

    The Master stuff in the first half of the episode is the stuff I didn’t like but it didn’t detract from the second half of the episode and the cliff-hanger was so barmy and out there that I just had to love it. Of course we shall see if I can keep on being positive when there is a planet of Simm Masters.

    #107278
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    I honestly believe that anyone who doesn’t think Simm’s Master is brilliant is fundamentally broken in some way.

    Out of interest, Seb, why do you think James Bond is Omega? I’d much prefer him to be someone new, rather than needlessly attach him to another Time Lord. Especially since I think next week’s is going to be fan service heavy as it is…

    #107279
    Andrew
    Participant

    Soundableobject’s just upset that the Master isn’t a robot… :)

    #107280
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    > Soundableobject?s just upset that the Master isn?t a robot? :)

    And that he’s always wrong about stuff.

    #107281
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >Soundableobject?s just upset that the Master isn?t a robot? :)

    A cyborg actually. Really there was no reason to have that shite x-ray effect, we get it, he has gone a bit messed up, I would have thought his magic powers and super speed would be indication enough.

    #107283
    Andrew
    Participant

    Liked that effect. Liked it in the promos. Liked it in the show. It sells his oncoming collapse, the faulty resurrection, in a way new powers doesn’t.

    Super-Master scares the crap out of me. Mostly, I suspect, because it ‘weaponises’ him – making for an ever stronger contrast to the Doctor…and making the odds against the Doctor that much greater.

    #107284
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >I suspect, because it ?weaponises? him – making for an ever stronger contrast to the Doctor?and making the odds against the Doctor that much greater.

    I think the Master is always weaponised in a way, certainly he always has the advantage over the Doctor in that he will go to violence quicker than the Doctor.
    The first scene where I really thought that the Simm Master was working pretty good in this episode was after that laser bolt when the Doctor and the Master were talking, he really worked so well in that scene, it was so engrosing, I was fixed to the screen, then he did his super-power act and jumped away and I was taken out, luckily I was pulled right back in when the helicopters arrived and the Doctor was being shot at, I actually thought he had been shot at the end of the scene.

    #107289
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >For example, I?m not entirely sure why the Master has all these superpowers. I know his regeneration was messed with but if anything I?d think he would be weaker. Okay, I suppose he is in a sense with all the requirement to eat, but he?s got some major compensations there.

    Tennant said something along the lines of “burning yourself out” so I guess he is using all his remaining energy to fuel the super-powers.

    >I?m particularly curious about the stuff concerning Wilfred and his secret messages and the coincidences surrounding him. I?m starting to wonder if he?s got a fob watch hiding away somewhere?.

    Wouldn’t that make his daughter, Sylvia, half Time Lord and stop her from turning into Simm?

    #107285
    ChrisM
    Participant

    >There seemed to be a deliberately odd feel to this episode

    I agree. The start felt rather disjointed, no doubt due to setting up all those story threads.

    >The first 30 minutes couldn?t have been more dissapointing.

    I really didn’t like the way the brought back the Master either. No doubt it was because they wanted to set him up quickly and move the story on but I think it could have been done better. I wasn’t too keen on the coincidence of the Master’s resurrection coinciding with this alien replicating technology… although I liked the idea of the device itself, and it’s misuse. I think the machine should have been integral to his plan from the start rather than being in the right place and the right time (from his point of view. Wrong place, wrong time for everyone else obviously). It could have been created according to blueprints left behind possibly with some alien tech to his disciples for example (he had the Tardis at one point after all and could have gone to other places before his run for Prime Minister)It could have been the thing that regenerated him in the first place rather than all that potion malarkey.

    It would have required him being separated at some point, the machine being sabotaged, etc, by Mrs Saxon or another operative but I think it could have worked.

    i was going to say are all the masters just humans in the masters likeness or are they all time lord masters but considering at this point the human race does not exist then that pretty much answers itself.

    Yes. The way I understand it, the alien device regenerates a planet’s population by copying a template. The Master being the template means that now the entire population are effectively exact duplicates of the Master and therefore all of the Timelord species. I doubt it was originally meant to copy so abolutely, but The Master has probably altered it’s programming somewhat.

    Despite the stuff I mentioned above I found the episode intriguing and hope to catch it again On Demand to mull over bits I might have missed. (For example, I’m not entirely sure why the Master has all these superpowers. I know his regeneration was messed with but if anything I’d think he would be weaker. Okay, I suppose he is in a sense with all the requirement to eat, but he’s got some major compensations there.)

    I’m particularly curious about the stuff concerning Wilfred and his secret messages and the coincidences surrounding him. I’m starting to wonder if he’s got a fob watch hiding away somewhere….

    #107291
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Wouldn?t that make his daughter, Sylvia, half Time Lord and stop her from turning into Simm?

    No. When Time Lords use the fob watch they become entirely human. Therefore his offspring would be entirely human too.

    Tennant said something along the lines of ?burning yourself out? so I guess he is using all his remaining energy to fuel the super-powers

    I did think of that, and no doubt that’s the explanation, but I don’t like it.

    #107292
    Dessie
    Participant

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/s4/episodes/S0_09

    Dunno if it’s been posted but there’s a clip from the next episode on there. Timothy Dalton looks like he’ll be great in this.

    #107295
    Ridley
    Participant

    I wonder when someone will edit The Devil’s Gallop over Ginger and the other tramp running away.

    Underwhelmed by the episode (aswell). It was all over the place. The threat of The Master’s Force powers was spoiled by the blatent fakery of it all. As was the actual population’s ‘spinning’ (“that’s a good trick!”) heads but the pay off with a Master race should be worth it for part two.

    And my pet peeves: the episode identifying itself as part one and inserting a real-world politician into a universe that established previous officials were fictional.

    #107296
    John Hoare
    Participant

    and inserting a real-world politician into a universe that established previous officials were fictional.

    This struck me as a bit jarring, too…

    #107297
    Ridley
    Participant

    My wording of that is bad but I think you know what I mean. ;)

    #107299
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    > inserting a real-world politician into a universe that established previous officials were fictional.

    Eccleston was at the Kennedy assassination. And I can’t remember for sure, but I think either the US president or Churchill will have been mentioned in Empty Child. Hitler certainly was. Oh, and Ann Widdicombe’s been in it, of course.

    Sure, it’s played with fake present-day politicians when it’s needed to. But that’s largely because it’s had to kill them off – and he couldn’t have done that with Blair or Bush. Would it have worked if Penelope Wilton had been playing Margaret Beckett?

    However, in this instance, I think it was acceptable to use Obama because what he represents to many people is wha the story called for the President to be doing. Also, the image of him becoming the Master was all the more effective for being a real-life figure.

    Anyway, Marvel Comics usually have fictional politicians (J. Jonah Jameson is currently mayor of New York), but Obama shows up almost once a month (he’s in this week’s Captain America Reborn one-shot). If it’s good enough for them…

    #107301
    Andrew
    Participant

    Great use of an Obama double, too.

    Dunno how I felt about it. There’s something legitimate about the iconography of Obama – his cultural worth is what makes the difference, I think, to an RTD use. The name has weight, like Churchill, like Kennedy, but unlike, say, Calvin Coolidge.

    On the other hand, it felt like the show was being naive – ascribing a genuine president the solution to a genuine global problem. It was played a little hard. And I’m the guy that LOVES the Doctor picking up the Olympic torch…

    So Obama took over the presidency from Tony From The 10%ers, I guess?

    #107302
    Ridley
    Participant

    Also, the image of him becoming the Master was all the more effective for being a real-life figure.

    Could have been done without mentioning his name.

    If it?s good enough for them?

    I don’t like it when the 616 universe does it either.

    #107303
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Could have been done without mentioning his name.

    Even though I’m uncertain about the use, I don’t think doing it visually but avoiding the name has any value. For a joke, sure, but as a plot point, a cause of trouble – saying ‘the president’ and showing an Obama lookalike is no different from saying the name.

    #107305
    Gwynnie
    Participant

    All I could think was how bad the “Master race” pun was (if it can be called a pun??), and how much fun John Simm must have had filming. But what exactly does he plan to do now that he’s copied almost the entire planet into himself? Will they all just walk around laughing, or will they move on to the rest of the universe?
    Well, whatever flaws it may have had, I still can’t wait for part 2…

    #107307
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >But what exactly does he plan to do now that he?s copied almost the entire planet into himself? Will they all just walk around laughing, or will they move on to the rest of the universe?

    Well it was a spur of the moment thing, the Master only found out about the gate late on so I doubt he has a plan, probably just make it up as he goes along.

    #107309
    ChrisM
    Participant

    I was thinking, considering how insane he is it’s unlikely his various ‘selves’ would remain united for long and would end up fighting amongst themselves. I’m of course thinking in terms of a realistic scenario (well, apart from the DNA altering of the population of Earth thing) and I’m not convinced they’d take the story down that route.

    #107310
    Pongo
    Participant

    What poo.

    RTD, Tennant, and Simm aren’t my favorite writer, Doctor, or Master, but they’re all capable of better than that.

    Still, better than last year’s finale.

    #107313
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > And I?m the guy that LOVES the Doctor picking up the Olympic torch?

    O RLY?

    #107314
    ori-STUDFARM
    Participant

    > But what exactly does he plan to do now that he?s copied almost the entire planet into himself? Will they all just walk around laughing, or will they move on to the rest of the universe?

    I think they’ll start a new empire, kinda like the Roman empire and rule the planet. They’ll arrest and lock up the original Master giving him only chinese worry balls to entertain him for the centuries of imprisonment that he now faces.

    Did anyone else notice the Torchwood 4×4 in this episode? I’ve been shown a screenshot which might be….but I’m not so sure! http://twitpic.com/vak8z

    #107315
    TheLeen
    Participant

    Oh my God, that was BRILLIANT.

    #107316
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    I liked it. It was incredibly slow though. I didn’t like the ressurection and found it all a bit clunky (particularly The Master being given special powers which didn’t serve the plot AT ALL), but the promise of Tennant biting the big one at the end of part 2 makes it all slightly more gripping than it could have been.

    I’d appreciate a decent reason as to why Wilf is the only member of the human race you can remember the bad dreams, though. You know, beyond RTD’s usual sort of pre-determinism malarky.

    And one thing that doesnt make sense. The Ood told The Doctor that he should have come straight away. The Doctor travels in a time-machine so why didn’t he just set the co-ordinates for twenty seconds after Ood Sigma appeared to him?

    By law, Tim Dalton should be in every TV show and film but I don’t think we need the Time Lords back. I wonder if RTD disussed this with Moff.

    #107317
    hummingbird
    Participant

    > I didn?t like the ressurection and found it all a bit clunky

    Not so much clunky as a little too Harry Potter. Possibly my only major criticism.

    #107319
    Nick R
    Participant

    The Master?s return was shite, it was magic, it wasn?t sci-fi in anyway, they fucking used the word potions.

    I quite liked that – presenting it as a mystical fantasy ritual, and then throwing in the “biometric signature” phrase at the end.

    Lawrence Miles’ review – I mean, blog post, written before he watched it – is up, and is typically upbeat.

    The chase over the waste ground near the start was far too long, but I thought the Master’s jumping effect was pretty good. More convincing than Morpheus’ leap in The Matrix ten years ago.

    The fact that RTD is shaking things up a lot (or applying a reset button?) before Moffat takes over reminds me of Brian Bendis ending his Daredevil run by putting Matt Murdock in jail before handing over to Ed Brubaker. Seb could probably think of dozens of other examples from comics…

    Someone posted this over at Rllmukforum:
    http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u101/gbfc/Shodai/TheMasterYEAAAHHH.jpg

    #107321
    Andrew
    Participant

    > I quite liked that – presenting it as a mystical fantasy ritual, and then throwing in the ?biometric signature? phrase at the end.

    Yeah, that’s where I am on it. The show has vampires and werewolves – everything mystical turns out scentific. At this point, and for these purposes, I can live without the drawling exposition explaning WHY his return is actually chemical and biological rather than magical; I just assume it. If it had been A Big Machine that brought him back, the result would have been the same – it’d just be a bit d?j? vu shen the resurrection gate was revealed.

    #107324
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    I was thinking, considering how insane he is it?s unlikely his various ?selves? would remain united for long and would end up fighting amongst themselves.

    Doctor, there’s no point in concealing it anymore. The Master and me… we’ve had a bit of a tiff.

    #107325
    Nick R
    Participant

    #107326
    Carlito
    Participant

    Just watched it. Marking the first full episode of Doctor Who I’ve actually seen.

    Enjoyed it. A world full of John Simms was preposterous but fun nonetheless. Will be checking out part 2.

    #107328
    Andrew
    Participant

    > > And I?m the guy that LOVES the Doctor picking up the Olympic torch?

    > O RLY?

    YS RLY.

    #107331
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Lawrence Miles

    Doctor Who bollocks aside, he also doesn’t understand that the new Sherlock Holmes IS reasonable true to the books.

    http://chud.com/articles/articles/21965/1/THE-DEVIN039S-ADVOCATE-THE-HOLMES-HATERS/Page1.html

    #107335
    ChrisM
    Participant

    >it?d just be a bit d?j? vu shen the resurrection gate was revealed.

    Or they could have used it to bring him back in the first place as I said above. That would involve the Master’s plot thread going around in a circle, i.e. separated from the gate then going back to it and doing his multiplication doohickey. If they kept with the idea of Mrs. Saxon’s people’s sabotage that would work and keep things more technological and also do away with the coincidence of the Master’s return coinciding with the discovery of the gate.

    #107340
    pfm
    Participant

    Tennant, Simm, Cribbins, Dalton, all brilliant. The Master’s resurrection, questionable nonsense that may hopefully make more sense next week if it’s revealed that, say, the Time Lords have ‘programmed’ him in some way or they’ve been in his head all along and have set all these events in motion. The human race replaced with Time Lords. The Narrator, whoever he is, probably related to the Master or Doctor (or both…) in a paternal-type way, someone far worse than The Master at least, who comes across as an angry child (which is a good thing, Simm doing a great job again)

    Personally I think RTD actually struggled to fill this hour, considering how packed his final story really should be. There’s no way it was suitable for 6pm Christmas Day either like, say, The Next Doctor was (as naff as that was). Frig knows what everyone sat down watching it thought. Those who never watched Last of the Time Lords or know nothing about the Time Lords at all would have big question marks above their heads and I doubt they were that entertained by the insanity.

    The clip for Part Two is suitably Star Wars-esque. Or maybe Flash Gordon, considering who’s in it! And this is before the end of the Time War! Pretty spoilerish clip really. They KNEW the Doctor was going to end it all. And the smashed up ships outside…some of the biggest shots ever by The Mill. Bring it on, even if it’s a complete mess!!

    #107342
    JamesTC
    Participant

    It got 10 million viewers, frankly I don’t think that is all that good compared woth ‘The Next Doctor’ which pulled in well over 11 million. This episode should have pulled in mroe considering what it is, the last of the Tenth Doctors adventures. I don’t expect next weeks to do all that better, it is up against ITV’s flagship show, Coronation Street, just like 20 years ago.

    #107343
    Andrew
    Participant

    > It got 10 million viewers, frankly I don?t think that is all that good compared woth ?The Next Doctor?

    OMG ITS A HUGE FAILURE!!!!

    Or, it’s in the top three New Who ep ratings ever, based purely on overnights – the PVR stats are going to have bigger sway than any previous year. Plus how can you expect masses more viewers for a continuity-heavy episode than a big novelty show? Tennant’s end only means something to those who already watched the show. Say, on previous big eps like The Next Doctor. The conclusion’s hardly MADE for newcomers, is it? Top three, with no home recordings factored in, is nobody’s idea of a failure.

    #107345
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    I loved it. It had its flaws (Lucy Saxon’s anti-Resurrection Potion potion seemed a bit silly) but I loved everything else. And I don’t know about you, but the idea of everybody – everyone on the planet – being transformed into a copy of the same person absolutely terrifies me, regardless of whether that person is good or not. Thinking about it actually kept me awake at night.

    John Simm’s Master has been a triumph from day one, and this story is no exception.

    #107346
    JamesTC
    Participant

    I’m not saying they are bad ratings, they just arn’t that good (or atleast what what I thought it would get). It is a top watched show (3rd or 4th wasn’t it?) but it still was trounced by the less publicised and advertised and hyped show last year.

    #107348
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Re: Ratings, remember these are just overnights. Who has never had more than about 12m in FINAL ratings. So 10m in overnights is pretty impressive. Must admit, though, that with all the publicity I expected it to win the day, but apparently people would rather be depressed by Eastenders.

    But yeah, it’s not exactly what you’d call a disaster.

    #107350
    Andrew
    Participant

    I’m aghast that 10m could be classed ‘not that good’. Third biggest Who overnghts ever, likely to have the biggest PVRs to follow (those increase tangably each Xmas, so could get close to 2m this time.) Plus BBC HD stats aren’t added, and this is the first HD Xmas episode. Given the story points I mentioned – which play to existing viewers rather than drawing in newbies the way the last two years’ easy-sell high-concepts could – it seems postivitely solid.

    It may have been beaten, but it wasn’t trounced.

    #107352
    Dessie
    Participant

    I just hope viewers who don’t normally watch Doctor Who aren’t put off by this episode. To a new viewer it would have been nonsense which although isn’t a bad thing it was definitely less accessible than other specials.

    #107353
    JamesTC
    Participant

    I just expected better ratings after all the publicity. I don’t see why a more continuity heavy episode would turn people away and cause lower ratings (until next week), it isn’t like it opens with a warning saying “You better know you spectrox from your rutan”, they need to watch it first to know it is.
    10m is good for the usual program but for the show that in previous years has attracted 11+ and has had all the people from it on talk shows and plastered all over TV, you couldn’t move without seeing Tennant on something over christmas and then you have all of the christmas idents.

    #107357
    Gwynnie
    Participant

    Let’s see how many people watch part 2 before we judge…

    #107356
    Andrew
    Participant

    > 10m is good for the usual program

    10m has never happened for the usual programme. Not on overnights. It would be exceptional and unprecidented. Only two eps – both specials – have topped it.

    To see this as bad, as opposed to within a margin of reasonable fluctuation – you have to ignore that fact, and the PVR rise, AND the HD issue.

    As to the show being continuity heavy, the publicity was pretty clearly not about One Simple Idea. That the trails and clips didn’t give a simple ‘what this is about’ is a dead giveaway. Not just in a conscious way, but in idle discussion, where Tennant dies…but not for another week” is the only clear hook.

    I guess the hook is doom and foreboding. But I don’t see how that’s an easy sell compared to a disaster movie Who with Kylie in it or the glee of two Doctors battling cybermen in period London. Tennant could replace the Queen for her speech and it still wouldn’t change that
    But people still watched in droves – in numbers that will end up close to the other two big Christmas eps.

    #107358
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Which is up against Coronation Street as I said before, big gamble there especially as it was that show that killed it in the 80s (well that and the A-Team).

    #107361
    JamesTC
    Participant

    The Times on the ratings “fail” (not my words, theirs) yesterday – http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/tv_and_radio/article6968533.ece

    #107364
    Carlito
    Participant

    To all those saying it was inaccessible to new viewers, I’m not saying I’m reflective of the general viewer, but I didn’t struggle with it at all and that’s the first full episode I’ve seen. I’ve seen Torchwood before, and sections of some Who eps, but it was still quite an alien experience to me, yet I enjoyed it enough to watch Part 2 next week.

    #107367
    Nick R
    Participant

    David Tennant was on Desert Island Discs today.

    One of his selections was Tim Minchin’s new Christmas song… which he also played when he (and Catherine Tate) hosted Jonathan Ross’s Radio 2 show yesterday.

    How many BBC appearances over Christmas does that make? I count…

    – Dr Who (x2)
    – Hamlet
    – Those BBC idents
    – Catherine Tate’s Nan’s Christmas Carol
    – QI
    – Never Mind the Buzzcocks
    – “Who On Who” (next Tuesday)
    – Jonathan Ross’ radio 2 show
    – Desert Island Discs

    Good for him, I say – very few actors can even dream of being in the public eye that much (and for their work rather than tabloid Sleb gossip, at that).

    #107368
    TheLeen
    Participant

    Harry Potter IV was on German telly today and yesterday.

    #107370
    pfm
    Participant

    He’s making the most of it because I doubt we’ll be seeing him much at all on British TV for a while. He was decent as Hamlet.

    #107380
    ChrisM
    Participant

    I watched the latest Doctor Who Confidential last night and while it was interesting enough, I wish they’d left out the Time Lord spoiler. It’s stuff that was suggested at the end of this episode, but still subject to some interpretation.

    That being said there’s still room to be surprised.

    #107382
    hummingbird
    Participant

    > He was decent as Hamlet.

    A little more than decent, I’d say. It was a great performance.

    #107392
    pfm
    Participant

    > A little more than decent, I?d say. It was a great performance.

    Yeah, I could only say ‘decent’ because I only saw a bit of it. I’m gonna watch the whole thing on iPlayer when/if I get time (which I probably won’t…).

    #107398
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Dunno if it?s been posted but there?s a clip from the next episode on there.

    I actually regret watching that. Not often I feel that way – and it’s from the start of the main ep, so it’s hardly secret stuff – but it gives you an awful lot in a short time. If you’ve not seen it yet, I recommend not doing.

    #107401
    Kris Carter
    Participant

    I don’t regret watching that clip – but then again, I’m an utter and total spoiler junkie.

    #107403
    steven87gill
    Participant

    Andrew >I actually regret watching that. Not often I feel that way – and it?s from the start of the main ep, so it?s hardly secret stuff – but it gives you an awful lot in a short time. If you?ve not seen it yet, I recommend not doing.

    I’ve seen it and i concur, I’m just hoping that RTD doesn’t treat the timelords like the other end of season baddies and are brought back only to be conviniently got rid off in 45 mins.

    After watching that clip, i’m not keeping my hopes up.

    #107404
    Andrew
    Participant

    Ah well, at least we’re having two very different interpretations as to what that clip gives away. (I don’t expect the Time Lords to be dumped again. Now they’re back, they’re back – leaving the Whoniverse as RTD found it.)

    #107405
    ChrisM
    Participant

    RTD gave away the nature of the Timelords in this shows ‘Confidential’ episode too. Mind you, he was basically confirming what was strongly suggested by the end of the episode anyway, but I’m hoping for shades of grey. And to be fair, the clip I saw did suggest that to some extent, i.e. the leader does what he does for benefit his own people, and there was a woman with a strong moral centre.

    I know the Timelords became corrupted to some extent in the sense that they became a self-centred introverted race, but, apart from the odd megalomaniac here and there, they’re not particularly evil are they, any more than humanity I mean? Sure the main ‘timelord’ episodes might involve the said megalomaniacs*, but they were the exception weren’t they? Wasn’t that kind of their point? Like the Doctor in a sense. To be fair, the only other time Lords I’ve encountered are Omega and The Master. (I’ve heard of The Rani and The Monk but I haven’t seen those episodes.)

    I do remember a Tom Baker episode set entirely on Galifrey without any companions. I didn’t watch it all the way through (I was tired at the time and dropped off. And it kind of dragged,) but it involved a kind of total immersion prison computer. (Nice to see the concept of entire personality downloads existed way back then, fitting with the whole Hob Watch and Master’s Ring concepts of modern Who, by the way.) The Timelords in that episode tended towards pomposity but showed the same range of morality as us.

    *I haven’t seen enough Old Who to say this for sure.

    #107407
    Steve Harris
    Participant

    Confused, surprised and entertained in equal measure.

    It somehow seemed a step away from the normal way of things and came across as a tad cluttered. As always, the question is, how are they going to cram in all the answers and have a satifactory conclussion in 45 minutes.

    Surely any story involving the Time Lords deserves more time, but, as Andrew mentioned, maybe they’re back for good.

    A world of Simms sounds familiar!

    Perhaps a planet of Masters is a tad silly but it was done well and made for an amusing sight with the various states of ‘dress’.

    What I’m looking forward to most is finding out why Bernard Cribbens is so drawn to the Doctor.

    #107409
    ChrisM
    Participant

    As to whether or not the Timelords are back for good, I kind of hope they are. However, this depends a lot on how they’re brought back.

    If the Master has turned the entire human race into timelords, i.e. himself, is it possible those people will be later altered further into individual timelords? I.e. the species DNA is in place already. Dalton’s character appears to be narrating events that have happened. Could they actually all be former human bodies with uploaded personalities/DNA? If that’s the case, I’m sure they’re not back for good as it’s certain humanity will be restored.

    Of course for this to be true, a third player needs to subvert the Master’s plans for their own ends. Then there was Wilfred, the ‘soldier who didn’t arrive in time.’ He obviously thought it was a reference to WW2, but I thought it might be a reference to the Time War. A time-lord sleeper agent maybe, prepared for a second chance? Sure he’s a sweet old man, but so was the human incarnation of The Master before the whole Fob watch incident.

    #107411
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >What I?m looking forward to most is finding out why Bernard Cribbens is so drawn to the Doctor.

    Because he never bloody leaves London, he has only bumped into him three times and they were all around the same area. Now Glitz he must be really important to the Doctor, he has bumped into him 3 times in totally different places.

    >I know the Timelords became corrupted to some extent in the sense that they became a self-centred introverted race, but, apart from the odd megalomaniac here and there, they?re not particularly evil are they, any more than humanity I mean? Sure the main ?timelord? episodes might involve the said megalomaniacs*, but they were the exception weren?t they? Wasn?t that kind of their point? Like the Doctor in a sense. To be fair, the only other time Lords I?ve encountered are Omega and The Master. (I?ve heard of The Rani and The Monk but I haven?t seen those episodes.)

    From memory these stories have rogue Time Lords –
    ‘The Time Meddler’/’The Dalek Masterplan’ – The Meddling Monk appears.
    ‘The War Games’ – A rogue Time Lord tries to find the best fighter by pitting groups of armies from earth against eachother. Later in the story the actual Time Lords from Gallifrey arrive and they are sort of rogue, they put the Doctor on trial for meddling through time and force a regeneration, it is part of their laws so if they are rogue is debatable.
    ‘Terror of the Autons’ onwards – The Master appears.
    ‘The Three Doctors’/’Arc of Infinity’ – Omega appears, sort of rogue, he is more unfortunate, he was stuck in a different dimension and went crazy, he is praised by Time Lords as a hero.
    ‘The Five Doctors’ – Borusa places the Doctor in various incarnation and loads of enemies in the death zone so he can gain immortality from the tomb of Rassilon.
    ‘The Trial of a Time Lord’ – The High Council of Gallifrey are rogue until the end of the story in which they are diposed, The Valeyard is a rogue too.

    In most of those stories it is really just one crazy guy wanting power except in ‘The Trial of a Time Lord’ in which the entire council are evil, I guess either it is the same here or they are have an evil president in charge.

    #107412
    steven87gill
    Participant

    Andrew >Ah well, at least we?re having two very different interpretations as to what that clip gives away. (I don?t expect the Time Lords to be dumped again. Now they?re back, they?re back – leaving the Whoniverse as RTD found it.)

    I really do hope so, and i think i .might’ve. worked out what the knocking in the masters head actually is now, based on the clip and the preview of part II

    I’m still no wiser as to what on earth the four knocks for the Doctor is though.

    And hats of to the casting of Timothy Dalton as a timelord, which was frankly a masterstroke. I got chills listening to his speech at the end.

    #107416
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    >> Because he never bloody leaves London, he has only bumped into him three times and they were all around the same area. Now Glitz he must be really important to the Doctor, he has bumped into him 3 times in totally different places.

    I think given that it was directly referenced mentioning that Wilf’s character is tied to the Doctor in some way is fair game.

    >> Now they?re back, they?re back – leaving the Whoniverse as RTD found it.)

    This. It wouldn’t make sense to do anything else.

    >> And hats of to the casting of Timothy Dalton as a timelord, which was frankly a masterstroke. I got chills listening to his speech at the end.

    Absolutely. Although they could have possible used a take where he doesn’t splutter a huge amount of gob whilst delivering his big speech.

    #107417
    JamesTC
    Participant
    #107418
    Pongo
    Participant

    “You could be byoootiful.”

    Here’s hoping the Eleventh Doctor doesn’t have Ten’s yen for catchphrases.

    #107419
    Tanya Jones
    Participant

    >Absolutely. Although they could have possible used a take where he doesn?t splutter a huge amount of gob whilst delivering his big speech.

    Ah, the beauty of HD. I found myself ducking.

    #107422
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Ducks do well in water.

    Boom tsssssh!

    I wouldn’t mind but he doesn’t spit only once!

    (After my awful joke I just noticed Tanya’s avatar too. The pun that just goes on giving. Somebody shoot me.)

    #107425
    pfm
    Participant

    I loved the spittle! Even if it kind of gives away the character’s slant. He can’t spit like that and be nice. It’s president evil bastard time! Although did we really expect the Master’s son to be a good guy? It’s not hard to believe.

    #107426
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Master’s son?

    Looks like I missed something there.

    #107427
    pfm
    Participant

    I’m just messing. That’s my theory for who Dalton is.

    #107429
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    “Is that theory yours?”
    “Yes. I built it. Do you like it?”
    “It’s crap, son.”

    #107433
    steven87gill
    Participant

    My theory is that The ‘Doc 10 likes being 10 and doesn’t want to regenerate/seeing it as dying’ storyline is a sort of meta in reference to the publics reluctance to let tennant go and accept a new face.

    I liked the fact that it was the departing Eccleston who says goodbye and the new guy Tennant who remindes/reassures us that ‘it’s still me, i haven’t gone anywhere/ died ect ect.’

    Hoping they do that here.

    #107444
    Gwynnie
    Participant

    I turned on the TV the other day and they were showing an old Weakest Link with Who cast. I couldn’t stop watching…

    #107460
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Ok, so presumably the woman who kept on appearing to Wilf is a Time Lady? Just watched part 1 again and it’s a bit telling that there’s two women behind Tim Dalton covering their faces.

    Also, surely, that radiation lock has ~something~ to do with the regeneration? The whole thing about one person having to let the other one out is fair enough, but its explanation seemed a little clunky considering what else was occurring.

    #107464
    JamesTC
    Participant

    If the Master is dying then why doesn’t he just regenerate, he was brought back by the Time Lords presumably with 12 more regenerations, he has used 1.

    #107466
    pfm
    Participant

    I’d like to see the Master killed outright here. I highly doubt Moffat would want to use him anyway (after Jacobi and Simm wherever they went with the character would be boring, it wouldn’t top that), and it would be great for RTD to end his tenure by leaving his mark on Whodom with something ballsy and permanent.

    #107467
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >I?d like to see the Master killed outright here. I highly doubt Moffat would want to use him anyway (after Jacobi and Simm wherever they went with the character would be boring, it wouldn?t top that), and it would be great for RTD to end his tenure by leaving his mark on Whodom with something ballsy and permanent.

    If you think just because the Master dies it is permanent then you don’t know Who.

    The Master was killed at the end of all these stories –
    ‘Planet of Fire’
    ‘Mark of the Rani’ (not actually killed but just about to die by a dinosaur inside the Ranis TARDIS)
    ‘Survival’
    ‘The TV Movie’
    ‘Last of the Time Lords’

    Just because a character dies it doesn’t mean they die forever, same for the Daleks, killed forever more than once –
    ‘The Evil of the Daleks’
    ‘Dalek’
    ‘Parting of the Ways’
    ‘Journeys End’

    Hell the Cybermen were all killed in their first story and they returned.

    #107479
    JamesTC
    Participant

    After seeing the latest clips (which you can find on blogterwho.blogspot.com) I give my prediction on the four knocks –
    Wilf is the Doctors Dad under one of them chamelion things and when he arrives his heart beat is the four knocks of a Time Lord. Maybe the woman in white is his mother.

    Normally if I found out they were showing the Doctors Dad I’d cringe but if Wilf is his Dad then I’d be rather happy with that.

    #107480
    Ridley
    Participant

    …it would be great for RTD to end his tenure by leaving his mark on Whodom with something ballsy and permanent.

    Jack Harkness.

    #107484
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Torchwood Series 4.

    #107488
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    I’M SO FUCKING EXCITED. THAT IS ALL.

    #107489
    JamesTC
    Participant

    This episode will be the first I will watch when it is first aired all the way from start to finish since ‘Midnight’. So obviously I am more excited, mainly about Matt Smith though.

    #107490
    JamesTC
    Participant
    #107491
    Ridley
    Participant

    *clap* *clap* *clap* :D

    #107502
    Gwynnie
    Participant

    6.40pm? That’s longer away than I thought…. ah well, off I go to the house of a friend with an actual television. EEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!! (excited noise, just to avoid confusion)

    #107507
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Small spoiler:

    Apparently Russell Tovey will be back as the same character he played before. (The bit concerning Doctor Who is nearer the end of the article, it’s mainly concerned with Being Human. Series 2 starts quite soon by the way.)

    Considering he played an alien character (well, I assume he’s an alien being a crew-member of the Titanic spaceship… although there wasn’t much alien about those folks was there? Apart from the little cyborg conker guy.) I’m curious how he’ll fit in.

    Anyway, we’ll see soon.

    #107508
    NitroChrisUK
    Participant

    10 mins to go !!

    #107509
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    This better be good. Tennant needs a swansong as good as his performance over the past 4 years.

    #107510
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    In short; didn’t particularly like it. The Time Lords return seemed like a pointless afterthought and was concluded badly. Liked the radiation scene, but they ruined it by having the longest death scene in TV history. WAAAAY overdone. Rose in the snow wasn’t bad, but everything else was ridiculous. Particularly Mickey & Martha and Captain Jack.

    Regeneration scene wasn’t bad but doubt Matt Smith will endear himself to the naysayers with that small performance.

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