Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum Doctor Who – End of Time Broadcast Discussion

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  • #107350
    Andrew
    Participant

    I’m aghast that 10m could be classed ‘not that good’. Third biggest Who overnghts ever, likely to have the biggest PVRs to follow (those increase tangably each Xmas, so could get close to 2m this time.) Plus BBC HD stats aren’t added, and this is the first HD Xmas episode. Given the story points I mentioned – which play to existing viewers rather than drawing in newbies the way the last two years’ easy-sell high-concepts could – it seems postivitely solid.

    It may have been beaten, but it wasn’t trounced.

    #107352
    Dessie
    Participant

    I just hope viewers who don’t normally watch Doctor Who aren’t put off by this episode. To a new viewer it would have been nonsense which although isn’t a bad thing it was definitely less accessible than other specials.

    #107353
    JamesTC
    Participant

    I just expected better ratings after all the publicity. I don’t see why a more continuity heavy episode would turn people away and cause lower ratings (until next week), it isn’t like it opens with a warning saying “You better know you spectrox from your rutan”, they need to watch it first to know it is.
    10m is good for the usual program but for the show that in previous years has attracted 11+ and has had all the people from it on talk shows and plastered all over TV, you couldn’t move without seeing Tennant on something over christmas and then you have all of the christmas idents.

    #107357
    Gwynnie
    Participant

    Let’s see how many people watch part 2 before we judge…

    #107356
    Andrew
    Participant

    > 10m is good for the usual program

    10m has never happened for the usual programme. Not on overnights. It would be exceptional and unprecidented. Only two eps – both specials – have topped it.

    To see this as bad, as opposed to within a margin of reasonable fluctuation – you have to ignore that fact, and the PVR rise, AND the HD issue.

    As to the show being continuity heavy, the publicity was pretty clearly not about One Simple Idea. That the trails and clips didn’t give a simple ‘what this is about’ is a dead giveaway. Not just in a conscious way, but in idle discussion, where Tennant dies…but not for another week” is the only clear hook.

    I guess the hook is doom and foreboding. But I don’t see how that’s an easy sell compared to a disaster movie Who with Kylie in it or the glee of two Doctors battling cybermen in period London. Tennant could replace the Queen for her speech and it still wouldn’t change that
    But people still watched in droves – in numbers that will end up close to the other two big Christmas eps.

    #107358
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Which is up against Coronation Street as I said before, big gamble there especially as it was that show that killed it in the 80s (well that and the A-Team).

    #107361
    JamesTC
    Participant

    The Times on the ratings “fail” (not my words, theirs) yesterday – http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/tv_and_radio/article6968533.ece

    #107364
    Carlito
    Participant

    To all those saying it was inaccessible to new viewers, I’m not saying I’m reflective of the general viewer, but I didn’t struggle with it at all and that’s the first full episode I’ve seen. I’ve seen Torchwood before, and sections of some Who eps, but it was still quite an alien experience to me, yet I enjoyed it enough to watch Part 2 next week.

    #107367
    Nick R
    Participant

    David Tennant was on Desert Island Discs today.

    One of his selections was Tim Minchin’s new Christmas song… which he also played when he (and Catherine Tate) hosted Jonathan Ross’s Radio 2 show yesterday.

    How many BBC appearances over Christmas does that make? I count…

    – Dr Who (x2)
    – Hamlet
    – Those BBC idents
    – Catherine Tate’s Nan’s Christmas Carol
    – QI
    – Never Mind the Buzzcocks
    – “Who On Who” (next Tuesday)
    – Jonathan Ross’ radio 2 show
    – Desert Island Discs

    Good for him, I say – very few actors can even dream of being in the public eye that much (and for their work rather than tabloid Sleb gossip, at that).

    #107368
    TheLeen
    Participant

    Harry Potter IV was on German telly today and yesterday.

    #107370
    pfm
    Participant

    He’s making the most of it because I doubt we’ll be seeing him much at all on British TV for a while. He was decent as Hamlet.

    #107380
    ChrisM
    Participant

    I watched the latest Doctor Who Confidential last night and while it was interesting enough, I wish they’d left out the Time Lord spoiler. It’s stuff that was suggested at the end of this episode, but still subject to some interpretation.

    That being said there’s still room to be surprised.

    #107382
    hummingbird
    Participant

    > He was decent as Hamlet.

    A little more than decent, I’d say. It was a great performance.

    #107392
    pfm
    Participant

    > A little more than decent, I?d say. It was a great performance.

    Yeah, I could only say ‘decent’ because I only saw a bit of it. I’m gonna watch the whole thing on iPlayer when/if I get time (which I probably won’t…).

    #107398
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Dunno if it?s been posted but there?s a clip from the next episode on there.

    I actually regret watching that. Not often I feel that way – and it’s from the start of the main ep, so it’s hardly secret stuff – but it gives you an awful lot in a short time. If you’ve not seen it yet, I recommend not doing.

    #107401
    Kris Carter
    Participant

    I don’t regret watching that clip – but then again, I’m an utter and total spoiler junkie.

    #107403
    steven87gill
    Participant

    Andrew >I actually regret watching that. Not often I feel that way – and it?s from the start of the main ep, so it?s hardly secret stuff – but it gives you an awful lot in a short time. If you?ve not seen it yet, I recommend not doing.

    I’ve seen it and i concur, I’m just hoping that RTD doesn’t treat the timelords like the other end of season baddies and are brought back only to be conviniently got rid off in 45 mins.

    After watching that clip, i’m not keeping my hopes up.

    #107404
    Andrew
    Participant

    Ah well, at least we’re having two very different interpretations as to what that clip gives away. (I don’t expect the Time Lords to be dumped again. Now they’re back, they’re back – leaving the Whoniverse as RTD found it.)

    #107405
    ChrisM
    Participant

    RTD gave away the nature of the Timelords in this shows ‘Confidential’ episode too. Mind you, he was basically confirming what was strongly suggested by the end of the episode anyway, but I’m hoping for shades of grey. And to be fair, the clip I saw did suggest that to some extent, i.e. the leader does what he does for benefit his own people, and there was a woman with a strong moral centre.

    I know the Timelords became corrupted to some extent in the sense that they became a self-centred introverted race, but, apart from the odd megalomaniac here and there, they’re not particularly evil are they, any more than humanity I mean? Sure the main ‘timelord’ episodes might involve the said megalomaniacs*, but they were the exception weren’t they? Wasn’t that kind of their point? Like the Doctor in a sense. To be fair, the only other time Lords I’ve encountered are Omega and The Master. (I’ve heard of The Rani and The Monk but I haven’t seen those episodes.)

    I do remember a Tom Baker episode set entirely on Galifrey without any companions. I didn’t watch it all the way through (I was tired at the time and dropped off. And it kind of dragged,) but it involved a kind of total immersion prison computer. (Nice to see the concept of entire personality downloads existed way back then, fitting with the whole Hob Watch and Master’s Ring concepts of modern Who, by the way.) The Timelords in that episode tended towards pomposity but showed the same range of morality as us.

    *I haven’t seen enough Old Who to say this for sure.

    #107407
    Steve Harris
    Participant

    Confused, surprised and entertained in equal measure.

    It somehow seemed a step away from the normal way of things and came across as a tad cluttered. As always, the question is, how are they going to cram in all the answers and have a satifactory conclussion in 45 minutes.

    Surely any story involving the Time Lords deserves more time, but, as Andrew mentioned, maybe they’re back for good.

    A world of Simms sounds familiar!

    Perhaps a planet of Masters is a tad silly but it was done well and made for an amusing sight with the various states of ‘dress’.

    What I’m looking forward to most is finding out why Bernard Cribbens is so drawn to the Doctor.

    #107409
    ChrisM
    Participant

    As to whether or not the Timelords are back for good, I kind of hope they are. However, this depends a lot on how they’re brought back.

    If the Master has turned the entire human race into timelords, i.e. himself, is it possible those people will be later altered further into individual timelords? I.e. the species DNA is in place already. Dalton’s character appears to be narrating events that have happened. Could they actually all be former human bodies with uploaded personalities/DNA? If that’s the case, I’m sure they’re not back for good as it’s certain humanity will be restored.

    Of course for this to be true, a third player needs to subvert the Master’s plans for their own ends. Then there was Wilfred, the ‘soldier who didn’t arrive in time.’ He obviously thought it was a reference to WW2, but I thought it might be a reference to the Time War. A time-lord sleeper agent maybe, prepared for a second chance? Sure he’s a sweet old man, but so was the human incarnation of The Master before the whole Fob watch incident.

    #107411
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >What I?m looking forward to most is finding out why Bernard Cribbens is so drawn to the Doctor.

    Because he never bloody leaves London, he has only bumped into him three times and they were all around the same area. Now Glitz he must be really important to the Doctor, he has bumped into him 3 times in totally different places.

    >I know the Timelords became corrupted to some extent in the sense that they became a self-centred introverted race, but, apart from the odd megalomaniac here and there, they?re not particularly evil are they, any more than humanity I mean? Sure the main ?timelord? episodes might involve the said megalomaniacs*, but they were the exception weren?t they? Wasn?t that kind of their point? Like the Doctor in a sense. To be fair, the only other time Lords I?ve encountered are Omega and The Master. (I?ve heard of The Rani and The Monk but I haven?t seen those episodes.)

    From memory these stories have rogue Time Lords –
    ‘The Time Meddler’/’The Dalek Masterplan’ – The Meddling Monk appears.
    ‘The War Games’ – A rogue Time Lord tries to find the best fighter by pitting groups of armies from earth against eachother. Later in the story the actual Time Lords from Gallifrey arrive and they are sort of rogue, they put the Doctor on trial for meddling through time and force a regeneration, it is part of their laws so if they are rogue is debatable.
    ‘Terror of the Autons’ onwards – The Master appears.
    ‘The Three Doctors’/’Arc of Infinity’ – Omega appears, sort of rogue, he is more unfortunate, he was stuck in a different dimension and went crazy, he is praised by Time Lords as a hero.
    ‘The Five Doctors’ – Borusa places the Doctor in various incarnation and loads of enemies in the death zone so he can gain immortality from the tomb of Rassilon.
    ‘The Trial of a Time Lord’ – The High Council of Gallifrey are rogue until the end of the story in which they are diposed, The Valeyard is a rogue too.

    In most of those stories it is really just one crazy guy wanting power except in ‘The Trial of a Time Lord’ in which the entire council are evil, I guess either it is the same here or they are have an evil president in charge.

    #107412
    steven87gill
    Participant

    Andrew >Ah well, at least we?re having two very different interpretations as to what that clip gives away. (I don?t expect the Time Lords to be dumped again. Now they?re back, they?re back – leaving the Whoniverse as RTD found it.)

    I really do hope so, and i think i .might’ve. worked out what the knocking in the masters head actually is now, based on the clip and the preview of part II

    I’m still no wiser as to what on earth the four knocks for the Doctor is though.

    And hats of to the casting of Timothy Dalton as a timelord, which was frankly a masterstroke. I got chills listening to his speech at the end.

    #107416
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    >> Because he never bloody leaves London, he has only bumped into him three times and they were all around the same area. Now Glitz he must be really important to the Doctor, he has bumped into him 3 times in totally different places.

    I think given that it was directly referenced mentioning that Wilf’s character is tied to the Doctor in some way is fair game.

    >> Now they?re back, they?re back – leaving the Whoniverse as RTD found it.)

    This. It wouldn’t make sense to do anything else.

    >> And hats of to the casting of Timothy Dalton as a timelord, which was frankly a masterstroke. I got chills listening to his speech at the end.

    Absolutely. Although they could have possible used a take where he doesn’t splutter a huge amount of gob whilst delivering his big speech.

    #107417
    JamesTC
    Participant
    #107418
    Pongo
    Participant

    “You could be byoootiful.”

    Here’s hoping the Eleventh Doctor doesn’t have Ten’s yen for catchphrases.

    #107419
    Tanya Jones
    Participant

    >Absolutely. Although they could have possible used a take where he doesn?t splutter a huge amount of gob whilst delivering his big speech.

    Ah, the beauty of HD. I found myself ducking.

    #107422
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Ducks do well in water.

    Boom tsssssh!

    I wouldn’t mind but he doesn’t spit only once!

    (After my awful joke I just noticed Tanya’s avatar too. The pun that just goes on giving. Somebody shoot me.)

    #107425
    pfm
    Participant

    I loved the spittle! Even if it kind of gives away the character’s slant. He can’t spit like that and be nice. It’s president evil bastard time! Although did we really expect the Master’s son to be a good guy? It’s not hard to believe.

    #107426
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Master’s son?

    Looks like I missed something there.

    #107427
    pfm
    Participant

    I’m just messing. That’s my theory for who Dalton is.

    #107429
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    “Is that theory yours?”
    “Yes. I built it. Do you like it?”
    “It’s crap, son.”

    #107433
    steven87gill
    Participant

    My theory is that The ‘Doc 10 likes being 10 and doesn’t want to regenerate/seeing it as dying’ storyline is a sort of meta in reference to the publics reluctance to let tennant go and accept a new face.

    I liked the fact that it was the departing Eccleston who says goodbye and the new guy Tennant who remindes/reassures us that ‘it’s still me, i haven’t gone anywhere/ died ect ect.’

    Hoping they do that here.

    #107444
    Gwynnie
    Participant

    I turned on the TV the other day and they were showing an old Weakest Link with Who cast. I couldn’t stop watching…

    #107460
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Ok, so presumably the woman who kept on appearing to Wilf is a Time Lady? Just watched part 1 again and it’s a bit telling that there’s two women behind Tim Dalton covering their faces.

    Also, surely, that radiation lock has ~something~ to do with the regeneration? The whole thing about one person having to let the other one out is fair enough, but its explanation seemed a little clunky considering what else was occurring.

    #107464
    JamesTC
    Participant

    If the Master is dying then why doesn’t he just regenerate, he was brought back by the Time Lords presumably with 12 more regenerations, he has used 1.

    #107466
    pfm
    Participant

    I’d like to see the Master killed outright here. I highly doubt Moffat would want to use him anyway (after Jacobi and Simm wherever they went with the character would be boring, it wouldn’t top that), and it would be great for RTD to end his tenure by leaving his mark on Whodom with something ballsy and permanent.

    #107467
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >I?d like to see the Master killed outright here. I highly doubt Moffat would want to use him anyway (after Jacobi and Simm wherever they went with the character would be boring, it wouldn?t top that), and it would be great for RTD to end his tenure by leaving his mark on Whodom with something ballsy and permanent.

    If you think just because the Master dies it is permanent then you don’t know Who.

    The Master was killed at the end of all these stories –
    ‘Planet of Fire’
    ‘Mark of the Rani’ (not actually killed but just about to die by a dinosaur inside the Ranis TARDIS)
    ‘Survival’
    ‘The TV Movie’
    ‘Last of the Time Lords’

    Just because a character dies it doesn’t mean they die forever, same for the Daleks, killed forever more than once –
    ‘The Evil of the Daleks’
    ‘Dalek’
    ‘Parting of the Ways’
    ‘Journeys End’

    Hell the Cybermen were all killed in their first story and they returned.

    #107479
    JamesTC
    Participant

    After seeing the latest clips (which you can find on blogterwho.blogspot.com) I give my prediction on the four knocks –
    Wilf is the Doctors Dad under one of them chamelion things and when he arrives his heart beat is the four knocks of a Time Lord. Maybe the woman in white is his mother.

    Normally if I found out they were showing the Doctors Dad I’d cringe but if Wilf is his Dad then I’d be rather happy with that.

    #107480
    Ridley
    Participant

    …it would be great for RTD to end his tenure by leaving his mark on Whodom with something ballsy and permanent.

    Jack Harkness.

    #107484
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Torchwood Series 4.

    #107488
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    I’M SO FUCKING EXCITED. THAT IS ALL.

    #107489
    JamesTC
    Participant

    This episode will be the first I will watch when it is first aired all the way from start to finish since ‘Midnight’. So obviously I am more excited, mainly about Matt Smith though.

    #107490
    JamesTC
    Participant
    #107491
    Ridley
    Participant

    *clap* *clap* *clap* :D

    #107502
    Gwynnie
    Participant

    6.40pm? That’s longer away than I thought…. ah well, off I go to the house of a friend with an actual television. EEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!! (excited noise, just to avoid confusion)

    #107507
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Small spoiler:

    Apparently Russell Tovey will be back as the same character he played before. (The bit concerning Doctor Who is nearer the end of the article, it’s mainly concerned with Being Human. Series 2 starts quite soon by the way.)

    Considering he played an alien character (well, I assume he’s an alien being a crew-member of the Titanic spaceship… although there wasn’t much alien about those folks was there? Apart from the little cyborg conker guy.) I’m curious how he’ll fit in.

    Anyway, we’ll see soon.

    #107508
    NitroChrisUK
    Participant

    10 mins to go !!

    #107509
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    This better be good. Tennant needs a swansong as good as his performance over the past 4 years.

    #107510
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    In short; didn’t particularly like it. The Time Lords return seemed like a pointless afterthought and was concluded badly. Liked the radiation scene, but they ruined it by having the longest death scene in TV history. WAAAAY overdone. Rose in the snow wasn’t bad, but everything else was ridiculous. Particularly Mickey & Martha and Captain Jack.

    Regeneration scene wasn’t bad but doubt Matt Smith will endear himself to the naysayers with that small performance.

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