Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum Doctor Who – End of Time Broadcast Discussion

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  • #107511
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    Right stop that.

    That was absolutely fantastic. A bit fanwanky, a little self-indulgent, but 100% RTD Who – everything I was hoping for.

    #107512
    Carlito
    Participant

    I pretty much enjoyed it, understood why they had all the callbacks at the end although I didn’t get any of it having not been a regular viewer in the past… gotta say, as kneejerk and based on very little as it may seem, took an instant dislike to the new Doctor. For everything that kinda hooked me in to this two parter in the first place, that scene turned me off again.

    #107513
    JamesTC
    Participant

    They have a trailer on the website for the next series.

    #107514
    Beligium
    Participant

    Not too bad, not sure the Timelords storyline was particularly well thought out or paced, but had a few nice moments, and a fan-wanky, mawkish, yet nice goodbye at the end.

    Time to see what happens next…

    #107515
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    You’re not meant to like the new Doctor. If you do then it’s a massive failing on the part of the old one. Give the new guy a few stories and he’ll be THE Doctor.

    #107516
    redhead85
    Participant

    Erm…I may have missed a point somewhere but how come Tom Baker’s Doctor died after falling from an electricity pylon but David Tennant’s Doctor can fall FROM A BURNING SPACESHIP CRASHING THROUGH A ROOF AND FALL TO A MARBLE FLOOR and that doesn’t kill him? Well ‘ard.

    I did enjoy it, I didn’t blub once and yes, I think the obsession to tie up loose ends that weren’t really loose was a little self-indulgent but did make me smile.

    But his last words brought a lump to my throat. And when Wilf knocked four times on the glass I got chills.

    All in all, a fab finale methinks…

    #107517
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >A bit fanwanky, a little self-indulgent

    The decade is but 20 hours old, but that gets the award for the understatement of the decade. I was prepared for self-indulgence but the last 30 minutes was just that; no story whatsoever. And that’s the most frustrating thing; the actual plot was screaming out for some breathing space. Result: The Time Lords returned and buggered off in the space of 5 minutes.

    #107518
    John Hoare
    Participant

    The face-off between the Time Lords and the Master didn’t work, and I never bought the booth thing as anything other but a convenient tech reason for him to have to regenerate – which meant that what should have been moving (sacrificing yourself for ONE person, rather than many) just didn’t work for me.

    Really wanted to love it. Liked some bits. But overall, I’m disappointed. A shame. Thought the first episode was far better, annoyingly.

    #107519
    steven87gill
    Participant

    Andrew>(I don?t expect the Time Lords to be dumped again. Now they?re back, they?re back – leaving the Whoniverse as RTD found it.)

    Well, beutiful episode, i was a mess at the end, but as it happens i was right about the timelords. I genuinley hoped i was wrong and they would be back permanenley.

    #107522
    Muzzy
    Participant

    Beautiful. Really enjoyed it. The end did go on a bit yes but I’m willing to forgive it as it was a nice wrap up for everything that RTD previously gave us. Bit disappointed about the Time Lords getting sent back and ultimately not really doing a lot but hey ho. The Master saving The Doctor completely made up for that anyway in my opinion. That simple little moment made me very happy. Wilf knocking afterwards was chilling though. And, of course, no explanation about what happened to The Master! How conveniant :P

    Matt came across as promising. Seemed very reminiscent of when David took over really. I don’t think you can judge him properly from that minute at the end anyway, especially considering the massive shift in atmosphere from what we’d just been watching. Would have liked a new regeneration effect though!! And on that note why didn’t the exact same regeneration process crash the TARDIS last time round if it did here? Oh well. Nitpicking. Loved it.

    #107521
    Nick R
    Participant

    “There’s a phrase of great power that brings consolation to the soul in times of great need…
    HAKUNA MATATA
    … No, sorry, that’s The Lion King.”

    That’s what he should have said.

    Anyway, I enjoyed that. Although it kinda diluted the tragedy of his death that rather than regenerating in front of Wilfred alone, he had time to go round saying goodbye to all of RTD’s supporting characters. The equivalent of Trinity surviving for just long enough to give Neo a complete farewell speech before she pops her clogs.

    #107523

    Disappointed, but satisfied at the same time.

    Anyway I’m off to the pub so I don’t have to explain myself :).

    #107524
    JamesTC
    Participant

    So wait, who exactly was the woman Time Lord and how did she contact Wilf if the only way any other Time Lord could was through drumming in the past.
    And if the Time War was locked and the only thing that could get through was the signal from the past then how could Rassilon throw that star thing at earth.
    And why the fuck mention Rassilon, that is just wanking all over the page for the sake of it and then you give no explanation.
    Then there was the Donna cop-out.
    Then there was the Jesus pose yet again which destroyed the TARDIS despite the fact that 3 years ago Nine was in the exact same position and it had no effect on the TARDIS, 2 years ago the Master was in the same position and it had no effect on the TARDIS, 1 year ago for the aborted regeneration, no effect on the TARDIS.

    Atleast the trailer on the website is good.

    #107525
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    Okay what’s odd for me is I normally would agree with a lot of the negative chatter above. Comments about Time Lords, fanwankery, pacing and so forth. However this is RTD Who. We’ve had four and a bit seasons of getting to know how he writes the show; how he paces it, what he prioritises, what he leaves flapping in the ether.

    So I was anticipating and prepared to accept all the trappings of RTD that I’m not so fond of – so long as the pay-off and the good bits represented RTD Who zinging at it’s best.

    #107526
    Dessie
    Participant

    It was alright. The bit where the Master saved him was brilliant and Wilf knocking on the glass was heartbreaking. I’d have left him in there though. lets face it he’s getting on. The doctor visiting everyone was a bit pointless, i’d have prefered him to regenerate instantly. I thought the Rose scene was a bit stupid i’d have prefered her to be there knowing who he is and being devestated at him dying.

    The new Doctor seemed ok… a bit exciteable and i can see him getting very annoying if he’s like that all the way through. Thinking he was female was just weird to be honest but i liked the line about still not being ginger.

    #107527
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > Then there was the Jesus pose yet again which destroyed the TARDIS despite the fact that 3 years ago Nine was in the exact same position and it had no effect on the TARDIS, 2 years ago the Master was in the same position and it had no effect on the TARDIS, 1 year ago for the aborted regeneration, no effect on the TARDIS.

    It’s almost like they were trying to imply that Tennant was a bit special.

    #107528
    redhead85
    Participant

    > It?s almost like they were trying to imply that Tennant was a bit special.

    EPIC EMO REGENERATION!!!

    #107529
    Kris Carter
    Participant

    The more I think about it, the more I didn’t like that. Surely the Doctor’s had the best ‘companion send off’ already in Journey’s End… why the need to faff about with the ending for fifteen minutes, going around the old companians, again? Robs the regeneration of any urgency…. Oh well. At least the Master got a powerful, meaningful send-off (I’m not going to say death cos come on… who thinks he’s dead? Really?), and Matt Smith looks very promising, and the new series trailer looks great!

    #107530
    ori-STUDFARM
    Participant

    That was……okay…..nothing more.

    I’d have expected it to have been a little emotional at the end, but no! Dry eyes here! I’ve shead tears in the past, but not here. Overall opinion …..Underwhelming!!

    #107531
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    Speaking of which, when he mistook himself to be female I momentarily thought he’d said “I’M A GOTH!!”

    #107532
    Nick R
    Participant

    Didn’t Seb say in the nearly time:) thread that we’d have a separate thread for part 2? ;)

    The new Doctor seemed ok? a bit exciteable and i can see him getting very annoying if he?s like that all the way through.

    He did seem to whoop a lot in that short scene. He was alone, though, and the secene wasn’t really long enough to judge properly.

    Speaking of which, when he mistook himself to be female I momentarily thought he?d said ?I?M A GOTH!!?

    Haha, so did I!

    Also, the “Cactuses!” – “That’s cacti!” – “That’s racist!” bit was funny.

    #107533
    Rad
    Participant

    Yay! Trailer!

    At the end of Doctor Who Confidential.

    #107534
    ori-STUDFARM
    Participant

    Yay! Blink Angel thingy’s!!

    #107535
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Wait, what the fuck was special about Wilf then? Why didn’t he change? He was human and I don’t remember any indication or explanation as to why he is different and not changed by the Master.
    Did I miss the explanation?

    #107536
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >Surely the Doctor?s had the best ?companion send off? already in Journey?s End? why the need to faff about with the ending for fifteen minutes

    This. And Journey’s End was fanwanky but it was just a more concise episode. He should have had a much more understated death scene with Wilf. It robbed it of any sentimentality by dragging it out for the entire third act.

    >So wait, who exactly was the woman Time Lord

    I assume we’re supposed to believe it was his mother. But I also assume that we’ll never find out.

    >and how did she contact Wilf if the only way any other Time Lord could was through drumming in the past

    I’d consider thinking of a solution, but since RTD obviously didn’t give it a second thought, I don’t see the point. Ditto for why, when The Doctor had a gun pointed at The Master, ready to “break the link”, Rassilion didn’t think of using his mighty Power Glove.

    #107537
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    The Doctor placed him in the booth and then blocked out The Master’s trickery using the chambers controls.

    #107538
    Muzzy
    Participant

    He was in the booth thing when everyone got changed.

    #107539
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >Wait, what the fuck was special about Wilf then? Why didn?t he change? He was human and I don?t remember any indication or explanation as to why he is different and not changed by the Master.

    He got in the Radiation seal and The Doctor changed the frequency. Or something. Reversed the polarity, maybe.

    I guess the important thing about Wilf was that he was the person who knocked four times.

    #107540
    steven87gill
    Participant

    Muz> And on that note why didn?t the exact same regeneration process crash the TARDIS last time round if it did here? Oh well. Nitpicking. Loved it.

    Possibly doc 10 was doing all he could to hold of the regeneration even as it was happening (i don’t want to go!) making it paticularly violent.

    #107541
    Muzzy
    Participant

    >Possibly doc 10 was doing all he could to hold of the regeneration even as it was happening (i don?t want to go!) making it paticularly violent

    Hahaha. I like that theory :D

    #107542
    steven87gill
    Participant

    >Rad Yay! Trailer!

    At the end of Doctor Who Confidential.

    What? Been watching it on HD, there was no trailer there? Nice one Beeb.

    #107543
    Pete Part Three
    Participant
    #107544
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >The Doctor placed him in the booth and then blocked out The Master?s trickery using the chambers controls.

    Then why did he remember the bad dreams but nobody else did?

    #107545
    steven87gill
    Participant

    >Pete Part Three http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/newyear/

    haha, good man!!

    Looking good, looking bloody good infact.

    #107546
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > Then why did he remember the bad dreams but nobody else did?

    Wilf mentioned the dreams on the mini-bus, it appeared everyone had been having them, but been subconciously blotting them out save thinking about them. Presumably from his experiences with the Doctor Wilf was wiser to these things and therefore it wasn’t as easy for his subconcious to ignore them.

    #107547
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Mickey and (especially) Martha not similarly affected? It makes fuck all sense.

    #107548
    Muzzy
    Participant

    Who said they weren’t affected?

    #107550
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > Mickey and (especially) Martha not similarly affected? It makes fuck all sense.

    How can you be sure they weren’t? In the Mickey and Martha scene they were fighting Sontarans. It’s impossible to tell when in time, or where in the universe that sequence was taking place.

    #107551
    Andrew
    Participant

    Micky and Martha’s adventure could have been before or – since everyone was cured – after the events of the story by a number of years.

    #107552
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    Curious. It’s as though we’re experiencing relative time dilation in an amazingly compressed space.

    #107553
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >Who said they weren?t affected?

    The opening narration to Part One. They said that Wilf was the only human who could remember the bad dreams. So Martha and Mickey were as oblivious as everyone else.

    #107555
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > So Martha and Mickey were as oblivious as everyone else.

    If they were on earth at the time, and even if they were as Andrew said above ‘everyone was cured’ so it doesn’t make any difference, as the scene featuring them had nothing to do with the ‘Master Race’ plotline.

    #107556
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >If they were on earth at the time, and even if they were as Andrew said above ?everyone was cured? so it doesn?t make any difference, as the scene featuring them had nothing to do with the ?Master Race? plotline.

    The point I am trying to make is why is Wilf special, no explanation was given as to why he was the only one on the earth not to forget the bad dreams.

    #107557
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > The point I am trying to make is why is Wilf special, no explanation was given as to why he was the only one on the earth not to forget the bad dreams.

    Okay, but where’s the golden rule that *everything* has to be tied up and given a blatant reference? It wasn’t disclosed who the timelord (or should that be timelady?) was who visited Wilf. We’re Red Dwarf fans, a show that raises no end of questions. We’ve imagination to fill in the blanks, that’s the fun of it.

    #107558
    hummingbird
    Participant

    A little too much fanwank (they could have cut most of the last 20 minutes and the show would have been better for it), and so many references that seem to have just been thrown in for the hell of it.
    In the end, I was too busy wishing he would just get on with it to find his demise particularly moving.
    But, that said, I still enjoyed it :-)

    For me the star of the show was Cribbins, and the Cribbins/Ten scenes on the Cactus ship were genuinely moving.
    I think I may have had something in my eye at that point *sniff*

    I was almost hoping that Wilf would stay on as companion for the next few eps. He would have been fantastic.

    #107559
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >If they were on earth at the time, and even if they were as Andrew said above ?everyone was cured? so it doesn?t make any difference, as the scene featuring them had nothing to do with the ?Master Race? plotline.

    We’re not talking about being “cured” or “changed”, we’re pondering why Wilf is the only one who could remember the bad dreams.

    #107561
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >Okay, but where?s the golden rule that *everything* has to be tied up and given a blatant reference?

    I think it is just a general rule of drama.

    Atleast when Red Dwarf leaves questions it also entertains you, ‘The End of Time (5 minutes)’ part 2 did not entertain but it left too many questions, alot more than Red Dwarf has.

    #107562
    JamesTC
    Participant

    I don’t see why I am calling them questions, plot holes.

    #107564
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > We?re not talking about being ?cured? or ?changed?, we?re pondering why Wilf is the only one who could remember the bad dreams.

    So why did you bring Martha and Mickey into when you’ve absolute no way of telling whether they were on Earth during ‘The End of Time’ or not?

    > I think it just a general rule of drama.

    Who decides? It’s the auteurs choice how much they tie-up and how much they leave for the viewer to figure out for themselves. Just because you weren’t spoonfed an explanation doesn’t me one doesn’t exist.

    #107565
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > I don?t see why I am calling them questions, plot holes.

    Who are you calling Plot holes?

    #107567
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >Who are you calling Plot holes?

    Wilf being the only guy not to be effected. The Time Lady being able to break through the time lock despite the fact that it is actually stated that they can’t get a message through so they have to send one through the Master in the past. The fact that they couldn’t send anything out of the time lock but then Rassilon throws the diamond at a hologram of earth and it finds its way there out of the time lock.

    #107570
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >It?s the auteurs choice how much they tie-up and how much they leave for the viewer to figure out for themselves. Just because you weren?t spoonfed an explanation doesn?t me one doesn?t exist.

    If an explanation that made sense existed it would have either been in there or it would have atleast been hinted at. It wasn’t, every problem with the story was just ignored so it is just lazy writing.

    #107572
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >So why did you bring Martha and Mickey into when you?ve absolute no way of telling whether they were on Earth during ?The End of Time? or not?

    Sigh. Let’s retrace this. YOU said that Wilf’s adventures with the Doctor may explain why he was wiser and could remember the nightmares (explaining why he was so important). I brought up Martha and Mickey because they have also had adventures with the Doctor and, if your theory was correct, would have presumably had this insight too.

    HOWEVER, the opening narration from Part One said this was not the case. EVERYONE had bad dreams (not even just the inhabitants of Earth, EVERYONE) and Wilf was the ONLY ONE who could remember their content.

    So, to be honest, it matters fuck all whether Mickey and Martha were on Earth or not (and I must have missed the Spin-off Novel where it was established that Mickey and Martha were exploring the galaxy and having off-world adventures…Oh, and since Sontarans pop up regularly in London in The Sarah Jane Adventures, it’s clearly supposed to be Earth ANYWAY) it explicitly tells you who is affected by the memory loss. And everyone is. Apart from Wilf.

    A little mystery would, of course, be forgiveable but this is a major plot point. And we’re never likely to get a decent answer.

    #107573
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Bob goes the shop, his wife killed him, he didn’t like the shop so he blew it up with a fork. His wife was still holding the fork though. His wife never existed. He attended the funeral for his dog the very next day as he should do.

    Yeh, that story doesn’t make much sense but I left it all down to the reader to add their explanation to it, I mean I couldn’t possibly spoonfeed you everything can I? Now explain the story to make it good, you see it is actually the best works of fiction ever made, if you don’t see that you are just too stupid to not add good enough explanations to fix inconsistencies.

    #107576
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    PP3 : Sod off with the attitude, you can’t pull it off.

    Thanks for the explanation, however it doesn’t make any difference. In the Mickey and Martha scene it’s announced that there now a married couple, despite no previous hint of it. So you can assume what you like about the where or when, ultimately however you’re using your imagination to fill in the blanks. That’s all I was suggesting could be done with the Wilf and Timelady issues.

    I came up with a Wilf backstory on-the-fly that works FOR ME as a viewer in the moment. It doesn’t have to be rock-solid science, because we’re watching a show about a 906 year-old Alien flying around time and space in a abstract imitation Police Box. I wouldn’t expect a narrator to say “all except for one man, oh and two other people who aren’t actually in this story, but I best reference them for the sake of pedantry”. It’s about the story and the emotion, it’s not about crossing the Tees and the lower-case jays.

    If you’re unhappy because a loose plot-strand prevented you from enjoying the bigger picture that was going on then I’m sorry, it appears the loss really was your own.

    #107577
    Andrew
    Participant

    Sorry Pete – the progression of the discussion wasn’t wholly clear there.

    Right, so “Wilf’s adventures with the Doctor” aren’t the explanation. I agree that that doesn’t add up, either. I agree that Martha and Mickey are likely on Earth (though “It needs a spin-off novel to set up” is nonsense, since there was no “they got married” novel either). I agree the universe was sharing in the dreams, since the Ood said so, and it was happening to them as well. I agree it’s basically a messy bit of RTD storytelling.

    How about: The Time Lord psychic chose Wilf. Her influence on him was intended to guide towards prophesy, and it’s her connection to Wilf – selected as the person placed closest to the Doctor during these events – that makes him different. I saw it as part of his being ‘chosen’.

    #107578
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > Now explain the story to make it good, you see it is actually the best works of fiction ever made, if you don?t see that you are just too stupid to not add good enough explanations to fix inconsistencies.

    I’m willing to donate a few commas and a brief explaination of grammatical tense if that would help at all?

    #107579
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >PP3 : Sod off with the attitude, you can?t pull it off.

    You asked why I brought something up. Strangely enough, I brought it as a a direct consequence of a theory you put forward. Apologies (and extreme confusion) if you’ve been offended.

    >If you?re unhappy because a loose plot-strand prevented you from enjoying the bigger picture that was going on then I?m sorry, it appears the loss really was your own.

    No, I’d be prepared to gloss over this little thing if the story had extended to the entire running time of the episode rather than coming to a sudden stop slightly further than halfway through. But when you’re going to devote 20 minutes to some pointless little sequences, the gaps in the plot become all the more grating. Yes, you can explain it such issues with your theories but the annoying thing about this episode is that it’s doubtful that RTD even knows or bothered thinking about it. Wilf is important because Bernard Cribbins is great and RTD wanted to use him more. That’s it.

    >It doesn?t have to be rock-solid science, because we?re watching a show about a 906 year-old Alien flying around time and space in a abstract imitation Police Box

    Yes, watching sci-fi excuses the writers from actually writing stuff that makes sense or explaining major plot points. Oh no, wait. It doesn’t.

    Bored now.

    #107581
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > You asked why I brought something up. Strangely enough, I brought it as a a direct consequence of a theory you put forward. Apologies (and extreme confusion) if you?ve been offended.

    As evidenced by Andrew’s comments ‘the progression of the discussion wasn’t wholly clear’. Apologies that it caused the debate to drag on.

    > Wilf is important because Bernard Cribbins is great and RTD wanted to use him more. That?s it.

    > Yes, watching sci-fi excuses the writers from actually writing stuff that makes sense or explaining major plot points. Oh no, wait. It doesn?t.

    Except in the RTD-verse that’s pretty much EXACTLY how it worked. I completely understand why the long, long goodbye must have grated on some people. It clearly wasn’t for those people. It felt like RTD decided to have one last play with his toys and stick two fingers up to anyone who didn’t like how he did business.

    #107587
    Dessie
    Participant

    An immediate regeneration would have been more moving. Wilf watching him regenerate and knowing he was the cause of it would have been great to watch. As it was i was sat there waiting for him to regenerate and getting annoyed at the fact he wasn’t.

    The scene with Wilf and the Doctor on the spaceship was brilliant, probably the best scene in the specials. The Master unleashing on the time lords was great too. In fact every scene with John Simm was fantastic. I really hope he’s used again.

    The master’s plan was a bit of a cop out in the end though It was all undone by the wave of an arm. Just out of interest has Timothy Dalton’s character been in it before?

    #107588
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >Just out of interest has Timothy Dalton?s character been in it before?

    Yep, Rassilon, he was dead a long long long long time ago. He first appears in ‘The Five Doctors’ (dead but still sort of alive) and then in some Paul McGann Big Finish Audios.

    #107591
    Gwynnie
    Participant

    I’ll need to watch part 1 again but something was said about Wilf being at the heart of coincidence… possibly as some kind of explanation as to why he and the Doctor’s lives keep becoming intertwined, or rather why he was “chosen” by the Time Lords, if that was the case.
    It did seem a bit of a cop-out that the entire build up to the Time Lords returning was resolved so quickly… the Master’s entire life and insanity had built up to this moment, all these prophecies about something returning… and all it took was a quick bullet to a diamond and they were gone again. I had hoped for something a bit more… epic… and having guns play a part in any resolution always bugs me, especially when the whole mysterious Time Lord lady (or just Time Lady?) who appeared to Wilf kept telling him to take up arms… was it just for that reason?
    As for Mickey and Martha, they weren’t necessarily on earth – Jack certainly wasn’t! As the next visit was to save SJ’s son from being run over, I liked to think that he changed a bit of time before he died. Perhaps Martha was originally shot by a Sontarin and he saved her, or something.
    As for Jack… and Alonso… might we have the start of a new Torchwood crew? ;) Or was the Doctor’s final goodbye to Jack just to get him laid?
    It was fun, if not strangely paced and with slightly anti-climactic resolutions. Ultimately, though, it was part 2 of the Christmas special, a send-off for David Tennant and RTD, so it’s allowed a bit of creative freedom. And as Karl said… we’re Red Dwarf fans… surely we’re used to unanswered questions and a lack of continuity ;)

    #107595
    littlesmegger
    Participant

    It’s such a shame that people are seeming so flippant about RTD wanting to celebrate the last 5 years, and to close his chapter by filling in the blanks. I thought it was perfect, and needed. A thank you to the faithful fan base who had helped it become the success it is.

    #107597
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    I absolutely adored it, the Doctor’s miraculous dive through a roof and onto a hard marble floor aside. Almost perfect.

    #107402
    ChrisM
    Participant

    I agree with most of the comments on various plot holes and inconsistencies.

    That being said, I still largely enjoyed it. I hope Moffat’s plotting will be better though.

    Anyhow, concerning the Time Lady, since her presence was never explained, and considering the fact that they actually had Wilfred draw attention to the fact she was never explained -“Who was that woman?” followed by silence and knowing look by the Doctor- I’m wondering if she is someone specifically left for Moffat to pick up later. It seems strange such emphasis was placed on her for there to be no explanations so I think one might well be forthcoming.

    #107601
    Ridley
    Participant

    The Master hearts Cribbins.

    An immediate regeneration would have been more moving. Wilf watching him regenerate and knowing he was the cause of it would have been great to watch. As it was i was sat there waiting for him to regenerate and getting annoyed at the fact he wasn?t.

    Thought the goodbyes went on too long but I liked the slow death. I wanted him to be disintergrating from the radiation and the yellow glow building up over the goodbyes until the moment of change.

    Speaking of which, when he mistook himself to be female I momentarily thought he?d said ?I?M A GOTH!!?

    Me too. Does that mean Time Lords can switch genders then? I had first hoped Smith’s Doctor to be a goth anyway. The tweed bothers me, but less so since the trailer has alleviated my fears he and his Scottish companion are a Troughton/Hines knock-off. Although looking at the Doctor Who wikia apparently that would never happen.

    Mr. Davies’ comments on Confidential that The Doctor had forgiven Harkness can smeg off.

    #107603
    Pongo
    Participant

    Casting the diamond at Earth was cool, as was the image of the Time Lords materializing in the mansion. Otherwise, a lot of wasted potential.

    Wasn’t really interested in the knocking four times and all the hullabaloo that led up to it. But then I found all the omens and the prophecies and the foreshadowing to be fairly lazy writing.

    Why didn’t the Doctor visit Joan Redfern, why her descendant?

    I felt the partial regeneration last season was much more effective. The Doctor getting blasted by a Dalek was more traumatic, and Tennant’s reaction was subtler.

    The trailer for Matt Smith’s series looks great, though.

    #107604
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    > Why didn?t the Doctor visit Joan Redfern, why her descendant?

    Because that would reopen an old wound for Redfern. One I’m sure she’d rather forget about.

    > I felt the partial regeneration last season was much more effective. The Doctor getting blasted by a Dalek was more traumatic, and Tennant?s reaction was subtler.

    That regeneration and everything leading up to it was utter, utter, utter, utter shash of the shashiest variety. This was moving. Also touching. David Tennant and Russell T Davies touched me.

    #107606
    NitroChrisUK
    Participant

    overall i liked it. as already said the couple of plotholes were slightly annoying ( why was wilf so special) and i guess RTD did not answer the question about ” the woman ” to keep us talking.

    the last 20 minutes were slightly what i had expected from the last RTD who but i enjoyed it. and i wont judge matt smith untill i have seen a few episodes of him first, but looks promising.

    and i guess the door is always left open for ten to appear again(sort of)as he is living happily ever after with rose in the parallel world,and the 50th anniversary is not that far away.

    #107607
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > As for Jack? and Alonso? might we have the start of a new Torchwood crew? ;) Or was the Doctor?s final goodbye to Jack just to get him laid?

    Admittedly we don’t know when that scene was set (whether it was before or after Luke and Obi-Wan walk in), but my mind connected the dots back to Children of Earth so in that moment I my interpretation was “Hey Jack, you just killed your own grandson, have a shag on me”.

    As for Tovey in Torchwood won’t he be too busy in Being Human?

    #107608
    Andrew
    Participant

    > (whether it was before or after Luke and Obi-Wan walk in)

    I was thinking the same thing…

    > my interpretation was ?Hey Jack, you just killed your own grandson, have a shag on me?.

    On Confidential, RTD pitched it as Jack, having been a long time alone after the events of CoE, being given a chance to connect to someone again.

    > As for Tovey in Torchwood won?t he be too busy in Being Human?

    It’s possible to do both – these aren’t American series lengths, after all. (And even then it’s possible to do a long-running series AND a movie or two each year.) But I query the likelihood of the Beeb wanting to weaken Being Human’s status and identity by using the same actor as a lead in both shows.

    #107609
    steven87gill
    Participant

    And i guess the door is always left open for ten to appear again(sort of)as he is living happily ever after with rose in the parallel world,and the 50th anniversary is not that far away.

    It’s good because it avoids the need to use time travel to bring him back.
    He essentially is playing the same (but different) character. Doesn’t he have part of Donna’s personality in him?

    #107610
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    True, but as you say generally speaking a lead actor is only associated with one show.

    Having just re-watched last night’s episode I enjoyed it all the more. The long pay-off actually felt more justified and perfectly pitched on second run through. The surprise appearance of Jessica Hynes had me welling up.

    It’s not really been said, but as much I’ll miss Tennant I’m going to miss John Simm’s Master if that’s the last we are to see of him too. Alongside Bernard Cribbins he played his role perfectly across the final episodes.

    Finally the Timelady, during the original watch when she shared a look with The Doctor I jumped to the conclusion ‘It’s the Doctors mother’, a bit foolish really as I’m sure Rasillon or The Master would have recognised this. Re-watching this morning I noticed when Wilf asks at the wedding who she was The Doctor glances across in Donna’s direction.

    #107613
    Gwynnie
    Participant

    Interesting! We never really find out what becomes of Donna, presumably she forgets everything again?
    Ooh, the other point I was going to make… Wilf already knew about the prophecy – “he will knock four times” – he brings it up as they’re hurtling down to earth, before the Doctor makes his awesome (realistic or not) plunge through the glass. So if Wilf knew this, wasn’t it just a bit… well, mean, to knock on the glass in a rhythm of four?

    #107615
    Nick R
    Participant

    It?s such a shame that people are seeming so flippant about RTD wanting to celebrate the last 5 years, and to close his chapter by filling in the blanks. I thought it was perfect, and needed. A thank you to the faithful fan base who had helped it become the success it is.

    Conversely, you could argue that it was letting the real-world circumstances of the show’s production intrude in-universe, to the detriment of the story.

    I wouldn’t go to that extreme: I do agree there should have been some element of acknowledgement that it’s the end of RTDOBE’s era – just that maybe it shouldn’t have been so neat, or so long.

    Maybe instead of the Doctor surviving for long enough to go round visiting all those people, then while he was curled up in the chamber being hit with the radiation, there could have been a montage of flashes of all those supporting characters’ current situations. Then he’d regenerate in front of Wilfred.

    That would have had the same effect of reminding us of all the characters introduced by RTD, but preserved the tragedy of the Tenth Doctor being unable to say goodbye in person. The fact he was able to do so really diluted the idea of him going when he’s not ready: he said he wasn’t ready, but everything being so neatly wrapped up meant that we, the audience, were.

    Having said that, I must emphasise that though it had its problems, I really did thoroughly enjoy the episode!

    #107616
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > That would have had the same effect of reminding us of all the characters introduced by RTD

    As a viewer I was actually really pleased The Doctor got to go and say goodbye, how many of us will actually get that chance? The “I don’t want to go” line really then punches back that even despite getting to see everyone he’s still not ready, still wants to fight on.

    #107619
    Jonsmad
    Participant

    Enjoyed it. It nearly touched me to a tear, but not quite, during the lying on the floor in the booth bit. But it’s like the lord of the rings for the number of points the ending could have been at. Over all as much as I’ve loved Tennant era and really enjoyed the last few episodes of it. It’s been a looooooonnnnggggg year of goodbye, ever since the half regeneration in series 4 it’s felt like the end nearly here, and by the last few minutes of that episode I was thinking “yeah get off already.” I think he’s gone at the right time. I suspected the wilf thing ever since the moment in part one when he was being mentioned as part of it all.

    Why do the timelords who supposedly have some power over all of time and space, knowledge of fixed points etc? Need a stupid witch fore-seer who’s so dumb she scribbles. Even on her own face I think! That’s Time-Lock in’s for you, stuck round one table in the dark listening to the daftest most drunk one there! Time wars are hell then.

    #107621
    ChrisM
    Participant

    So if Wilf knew this, wasn?t it just a bit? well, mean, to knock on the glass in a rhythm of four?

    Heh. That occurred to me too. I think we’re supposed to assume that was unintentional on Wilfred’s part. From his point of view he was tapping, not even thinking about the amount of times.

    That being said, tapping three times seems to be the natural way most people use. Maybe old Wilf is that bit different… the kind who thinks of a marrow when when someone asks him to mention the first vegetable that springs to mind.

    #107622
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    Having the Doctor regenerate there in the radiation chamber would’ve lost a lot of emotional impact. I wasn’t crying when he fell to the ground and curled up in the chamber. I was crying by the time he’d said his goodbyes and made it back to the TARDIS.

    #107625
    Petetranterssister
    Participant

    Ok my 2 cents worth is i thought the whole 2 part episode was complete rubbish. A lot of things weren’t really explained that well, such as in other episodes the Dr made out that all timelords and daleks were dead (unless he didnt know i suppose). I thought the whole “timelords returning” was weak and not well thought out and it didn’t really interest me as it should have done.

    I thought the way the Dr “died” was really anti climatic, why couldn’t it have been something exciting and dramatic, an enemy finally getting advantage of the Dr but a bloody radiation chamber to save wilf! i mean come on!.

    The wway he felt the need to go round and say goodbye to everyone was unnecessary as he can still see them anytime and is still the same person essentially although parts of him will change and was just a ploy to pull old faces back in.
    and micky and martha married?? yeah right as if she would marry that twerp!

    On the plus side i liked the new drs entry, he looks like he fits the part and i look forward to watching the new series.

    xxxx

    #107629
    Ridley
    Participant

    he can still see them anytime and is still the same person essentially although parts of him will change

    I think the point was to establish he’s not the same person. ;)

    #107630
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    The actual “death” (by which I mean the bit in the booth) was one thing I did really like, despite it being rather hammy in performance. The reveal of the 4 knocks was brilliant. Unfortunately, it was surrounded by the worst conclusion to a plot ever (The Time Lords are back…and they’ve gone again!) and the prolonged goodbye. It was like Doomsday ramped up to 11.

    Why was this treated like a death rather than a regeneration which has occurred 10 times already to the character? Eccleston dealt with death with a shrug of the shoulders while Tennant mopes away. It was symptomatic of the 2009 send-off year, really. Making this far too much about the death than the actual story.

    I guess that’s what frustrated me most of all. Part One was focused so much about prophecies and hype (an RTD mainstay) about where the story was going, but Part 2 wasn’t about the Master or the Time Lords returning, it was just about Tennant snuffing it and the regeneration. And I guess that’s why it seems to have got a very good response from the audience. That’s primarily what they were tuning in for.

    #107631
    Petetranterssister
    Participant

    They shouldnt have treat it as though it was death though, the way christopher eccleston dealt with it was brilliant, a shrug of the shoulders as pete part three says then straight into a new dr, it felt good as it kept the continuity, what you want as a fan is to know and feel that even though the dr looks different he is the same man so its a bit silly to emphaise that it isnt!

    #107632
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    >A lot of things weren?t really explained that well, such as in other episodes the Dr made out that all timelords and daleks were dead (unless he didnt know i suppose)

    It’s a TIME TRAVEL programme. They’re the TIME LORDS. They TRAVELLED THROUGH TIME from a point BEFORE THEY’D ALL BEEN WIPED OUT.

    #107636
    Gwynnie
    Participant

    Doctor 10(ant) mentioned that it felt like dying every time, he comes back in a different body but it isn’t really “him” anymore. This particular incarnation was apparently just one with a rather fragile ego, he didn’t want to die (you can see how much he clung onto this identity when he used the DNA from his preserved hand to regenerate as himself, and the little tantrum he had before saving Wilf), while Eccleston’s Doctor was the kind who faced death more bravely.
    And yeah… swirly whirly, timey wimey… the TimeLords attempt to return would have been a fixed point in time, too, I guess, seeing as it was at that point (for them) that they put the signal in the Master’s head and sent it back through time. So for as long as he had heard the drums, the whole event had already happened in the would-be going to have has happened in the…we don’t exist here anymore!!!

    #107640
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    I really loved this. It’s true that the plot was quite thin and contracdictory at times, but that this basically was a collection of frankly awesome interactions with some equally awesome acting.

    As to why this regeneration destroyed the Console Room, I thought it was made quite clear that Ten was fighting the regeneration from the moment he got out of the chamber, which would explain why it started slowly and was more violent when it finally happened.

    #107642
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > what you want as a fan is to know and feel that even though the dr looks different he is the same man so its a bit silly to emphaise that it isnt!

    Surely you’re saying that’s what YOU wanted as a fan. No two people will want exactly the same thing.

    I want whoever writes the show to put their own stamp on the show without utterly distabilising it. I’m far from the biggest RTD fan in the world, but he’s done and absolutely terrific job in growing the legacy of this show and passing it on it far ruder health than it was before his involvement.

    #107645
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    Not to mention that he absorbed all that radiation – that’s gotta expel itself during the regeneration process, surely.

    #107648
    Andrew
    Participant

    I have to say, I find the quickie regenerations – Eccleston to Tennant, Jacobi to Simm – to be unusual in their treatment of the process as ‘same guy, new face’.

    Both had their reasons for being that way, of course. A catchphrase or two aside, RTD wrote nine and ten more or less the same, at least early on – he wanted the Rose relationship to be maintained, and it often feels like he’d really have preferred to have had one Doctor all the way through his run (that being Tennant). And once The Master was back, big and bad, it was a case of ‘grab the TARDIS controls and leg it’ – the character’s just been through one personality change, another so soon would be painful to write.

    But the deaths I remember – sorry the regenerations – were huge and mortifying and frightening and sad. They were much closer to a death than any kind of joyous rebirth. The process was painful, hard on audience and character alike. Not so much with the ‘farewell to friends’, of course, but then RTD’s been mainly responsible for bringing more substantial friendships and loves to the series. So in that respect there’s not much precedent.

    #107651
    Ridley
    Participant

    I’m not particularly savvy on the ‘Classic’ Doctors. Is Tennant the first to die by choice and without an audience?

    #107652
    JamesTC
    Participant

    > Is Tennant the first to die by choice and without an audience?

    Troughton died alone sort of, he was sentanced to regeneration by the Time Lords so he was and he wasn’t alone, you’d have to watch it and decide yourself. McCoy regenerated after death inside a morgue alone.

    #107653
    steven87gill
    Participant

    >I have to say, I find the quickie regenerations – Eccleston to Tennant, Jacobi to Simm – to be unusual in their treatment of the process as ?same guy, new face?.

    Both had their reasons for being that way, of course. A catchphrase or two aside, RTD wrote nine and ten more or less the same, at least early on – he wanted the Rose relationship to be maintained, and it often feels like he?d really have preferred to have had one Doctor all the way through his run (that being Tennant). And once The Master was back, big and bad, it was a case of ?grab the TARDIS controls and leg it? – the character?s just been through one personality change, another so soon would be painful to write.

    A lot of the trauma of this regeneration had to do with the fact that Doc 10 simply likes being the 10th
    Doctor.

    I like the idea of regeneration being presented as form of reincarnation.
    The idea that the self consiousness remains but everything else around it changes.

    I loved the fact that Doc 11 instantly snaps you out of all the melodrama of the death and the almost year and a half build up to it with ”Legs! I’ve Still Got Legs!” :)

    #107656
    Jonsmad
    Participant

    I thought it was a bit odd that a humanoid character, on his 11th humanoid incarnation from a race we’ve always seen as humanoid would need to be checking things like legs, eyes etc. The hair stuff and checking he was male I thought was better the new dr’s start and the steal of Holly’s line. Matt Smith’s first Dr Dwarf Moment right there. “Oh, that’s right. Look Out, A Crash is about to hit the Tardis”

    #107663
    Andrew
    Participant

    Confirmation on the End of Time commentary that Moffat did write the final section (and indeed supervised the shoot), the TARDIS destruction clearly agreed as part of the new series plan. It’s vague as to who put pen to paper on the big bangs – the implication is that the Doctor’s last line was the end of RTD’s work, but the kabooms were seemingly shot under Davies’/Tennant’s auspices.

    So, if you want to get into the continuity of the last moments of regeneration – and I’ve no idea why one would – then Moff’s the one to blame for it being more explosive/destructive than ‘normal’…

    #107674
    ChrisM
    Participant

    I thought it was a bit odd that a humanoid character, on his 11th humanoid incarnation from a race we?ve always seen as humanoid would need to be checking things like legs, eyes etc.

    I think that’s more fear of the idea that the process might go a bit wrong and he could come back deformed, rather than a different looking species. The impression I get is that regenerations are rather chaotic, and can go wrong. Look at the first episode for Tenant’s doctor for example. He was on his back for most of that episode recovering.

    Doctor 10(ant) mentioned that it felt like dying every time, he comes back in a different body but it isn?t really ?him? anymore. This particular incarnation was apparently just one with a rather fragile ego, he didn?t want to die (you can see how much he clung onto this identity when he used the DNA from his preserved hand to regenerate as himself, and the little tantrum he had before saving Wilf), while Eccleston?s Doctor was the kind who faced death more bravely.

    I agree with the first sentence. Mostly. Deep inside I think he is always the same, but since personality determines a person’s sense of self and that changes… it is arguable each incarnation is a different person as you say.

    As for the rest, I think 9’s reaction was mainly due to the fact he was a more depressed cynical Doctor. He was mending after the time war, and all the guilt, associated with it, but he wasn’t there yet. I think 10’s reaction was more due to the fact he’s really enjoyed life in this incarnation. He still retains some of the guilt, and the last episode took him to a rather dark place, but overall he’s had a bit of a blast. And now it’s over, it’s much harder for him to accept.

    A lot of things weren?t really explained that well, such as in other episodes the Dr made out that all timelords and daleks were dead

    Some stuff wasn’t explained that well, but that bit actually was. The Doctor himself states that they will be leaving the time lock before their deaths. He says it quite quickly though so it’s easy enough to miss.

    #107675
    pfm
    Participant

    I don’t think people should be disappointed about how quickly the Time Lords came and went. Even though their return was brief it meant a lot, some questions were answered and new mysteries laid out.

    They ARE alive in that time lock and they could still return again, most likely IMO through the Master who’s now trapped with them. Say Rassilon dies just after they disappear and the Master takes the Presidency, like it was suggested he could. He finally burns out and regenerates (we don’t have to see that). He uses the Woman (whoever she is, Susan, Romana, the Doctor’s mother etc…) to project out of the time lock like she did before to Wilf. He contacts the only race other than Time Lord that could get them out of the lock…the Daleks, or specifically Davros and/or Dalek Caan. It could work. The Master and Time Lords will definitely be back one day unless the show is axed.

    #107682
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    The Doctor has said previously that the thirteenth regeneration (that is, the regeneration of what would be the last incarnation of the Doctor) is “usually” fatal. We’ve also seen a pattern of the Doctor’s post-regenerative stress get worse and worse since, I think, the fourth Doctor’s regeneration into the fifth. This is a bit fanon-y, but it’s not unlikely that the closer a Time Lord gets to the final regeneration the more likely he or she is to experience trauma including incomplete regenerations and mental frazzling. That explains why both the tenth and eleventh Doctors checked for limbs, and it also in part explains the Master’s decrepit appearance in “The Deadly Assassin” and “The Keeper of Trakken”.

    #107705
    Carlito
    Participant

    It’s got to be highly unlikely the show will end for good after 13 regenerations right? How are they going to explain that one away?

    #107706
    Andrew
    Participant

    > How are they going to explain that one away?

    Seriously?

    In a show where – just recently – the ‘last Dalek’ was killed only for mass-Dalek invasion to become a recurring plot line, and the ‘last Time Lord’ has twice battled the Master AND just tussled with Rassilon and his pals, the solving of a little thing like the Doc’s longevity is nothing.

    Since the ability to regenerate itself was only lobbed in to allow the show to continue, and the 13-times rule was grafted on even later for the purposes of a then-current story, I see no difficulty in writing a way out of the problem.

    #107713
    John Hoare
    Participant

    I would love – LOVE – the regenerations “rule” to be COMPLETELY ignored. Not explained away, not even in a throwaway sentence – just entirely forgotten about. Purely to annoy those people who think it’s in any way a major deal.

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