How Series VII should have started

[gerrydelasel]

I never liked how at the beginning of series VII they just wave away the previous cliffhanger. “Yeah they killed us but we’re alive again now” is lazy writing. Not just that, they also added an extra clip of future Starbug shooting present Starbug, which didn’t actually add anything to the narrative. Then when I learned they filmed an alternate ending that could have been borrowed, I got even more ticked off! So I made my own edit: How Series VII should have started. Now, you’ll have to excuse me, I’ve already said too much.

 

Topic

[Dax101]

I always got the feeling that the Cliffhanger was to say either Rimmer saved the day or their future selves killed them before he could save the day. Which either way would lead to the same result. But maybe Rob and Doug were not really thinking about it that way at the time. Maybe they were to focused on Rimmer’s side of it to really think about would happen if their future selves destroyed the ship with the time drive on it.

Rimmer clearly does shoot the time drive at the same time you do see Starbug get blown up. But because we see Rimmer shoot first, you do kinda assume he got there before they got destroyed.

Its series 7 that removes the shot of Rimmer shooting it, and we just have him stop about to shoot, and then the ship is destroyed.

[International Debris]

I get the irritation from people who dislike the removal of Rimmer’s heroism – and I much prefer the original ending from that perspective – but actually just handwaving it away with a joke explanation of causality was surely the only way of actually getting out of it? I mean, they could have actually shown the timeline resetting and have them work out what’s happened, but would that really have been the best use of the episode’s runtime? Even as someone who doesn’t rate Tikka, I don’t think it’d be improved by seeing what we’re told. 

Since it was 3 years after and they had pretty much changed everything like the sets, the costumes and make up. They likely knew they couldn’t just film a scene set directly after. The starbug set for example in Series 7 looks the same, but there are noticeable differences. Krytens make up also isn’t the same.

In the end they just used the same logic but through dialogue.

To be fair, that didn’t stop them doing it at the start of BitR. Kochanski looks like practically a different person, the docking bay is a different shot with a different number of Starbugs, Kryten has different makeup…

[Podey]

The issue is purely with the explanation changing. 

What they changed it to conflicts with the later events of the episode but Kennedy being able to assassinate himself is consistent with the future selves being able to kill the “present day” crew so the rest of the episode could remain exactly the same, though whether is a plus or a minus, I’ll leave to the reader…

[Podey]

I always got the feeling that the Cliffhanger was to say either Rimmer saved the day or their future selves killed them before he could save the day. Which either way would lead to the same result. But maybe Rob and Doug were not really thinking about it that way at the time. Maybe they were to focused on Rimmer’s side of it to really think about would happen if their future selves destroyed the ship with the time drive on it.
Rimmer clearly does shoot the time drive at the same time you do see Starbug get blown up. But because we see Rimmer shoot first, you do kinda assume he got there before they got destroyed.
It’s series 7 that removes the shot of Rimmer shooting it, and we just have him stop about to shoot, and then the ship is destroyed.

We do also have the original ending to ‘Out of Time’ where they’re celebrating Rimmer saving the day by destroying the time drive, lest we forget, so we know that was the intention before they added the cliffhanger.

[Me Own Stunts]

I just started thinking about Barrie’s series 7 commentaries again and wanted to giggle to myself. 

His critical faculties suddenly left him when it came to his commentaries for series 8, though.
With Barrie criticising episodes of series 7, and Lovett criticising series 8, both seem to be largely wishing for more of their own performance, although I do feel Lovett wanted to comment more deeply on series 8’s shitness but felt he was outnumbered or wasn’t allowed.

[Me Own Stunts]

I get the irritation from people who dislike the removal of Rimmer’s heroism – and I much prefer the original ending from that perspective – but actually just handwaving it away with a joke explanation of causality was surely the only way of actually getting out of it?

I’ll say it again:  if it had been retained in series 7’s resolution to the cliffhanger, Rimmer’s heroism was perfectly placed to set up the events of Stoke Me A Clipper.

Yeah, hand-waving it away is what series 11 had to do after Rimmer’s apparent character growth in The Beginning.  But when series 7 was being written, it was believed Chris Barrie was leaving the show and not coming back.  Perfect opportunity to take the series 6 cliffhanger, recognise Rimmer’s heroism, then address it again in Stoke.

Hey, also the whole “a sonic the hedgehog burst out of the computer game and become solid!”  “what do you mean solid?”  “SOLID IT BECAME SOLID AND MADE RIMMER GO CONFIDENT” scene wouldn’t have been needed, because those seeds of confidence would have already been there and could have been built on quite naturally. 

[Dave]

“a sonic the hedgehog burst out of the computer game and become solid!” 

[Me Own Stunts]

Correct!

[Warbodog]

I don’t know how he made it through all the old games without dragging a big metal sword around.

[Moonlight]

I have bad news for you Warbo. This game is older than Sonic 1 was when it came out. It is the old games.

[Me Own Stunts]

Nah, it’s newer than Indiana Jones plus the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull which everybody knows came out yesterday.

[Rushy]

His critical faculties suddenly left him when it came to his commentaries for series 8, though.
With Barrie criticising episodes of series 7, and Lovett criticising series 8, both seem to be largely wishing for more of their own performance, although I do feel Lovett wanted to comment more deeply on series 8’s shitness but felt he was outnumbered or wasn’t allowed.

I think Barrie was just doing a bit. He had more words for Stasis Leak than anything in VII. 

Norman, though, was 100% real and I think the cast were trying to mitigate it by playing up the stereotype of him being the moaner so it wouldn’t be as obvious. He was fully justified in criticising how little he was in it. I mean, after Back in the Red, he gets about one gag per episode, isn’t it? Barrie left on his own volition, but Norman had probably thought series VIII was going to put him back in the limelight and give him a career boost. Instead he finds himself as a walk-on in a show that barely resembles what he was familiar with. 

He’s also the only one who pointed out how everything in VIII is oversexualised. Multiple times. 

[Podey]

I don’t really know how you fit Holly in on a show with Kryten in it, which was part of the reason the character was axed, as I recall. I feel for him being underused in that series but I don’t know how he could have been better employed. In fact, it’s a miracle he got in at all given they’re in prison. 

Any ideas?

[Rushy]

I don’t really know how you fit Holly in on a show with Kryten in it, which was part of the reason the character was axed, as I recall. I feel for him being underused in that series but I don’t know how he could have been better employed. In fact, it’s a miracle he got in at all given they’re in prison. 
Any ideas?

Kryten is a maintenance droid. Holly is an advanced supercomputer. Even in a senile state, he should be significantly more knowledgeable. If Blake’s 7 found room for both Zen and Orac at the same time, I don’t see why Red Dwarf can’t do the same. 

Not to mention that Norman and Robert’s humour is entirely different, so it’s not like they’d fulfil the same comedic function. 

[Warbodog]

Red Dwarf doesn’t normally have room for 5 regulars getting their fair share, but Series VIII could have been the exception and planned around this to showcase everyone across its longer run, since it already took the first step of splitting up the cast. Unfortunately, the next step was a doozy and it fell over into a big pile of dino shit.

[Podey]

I don’t really know how you fit Holly in on a show with Kryten in it, which was part of the reason the character was axed, as I recall. I feel for him being underused in that series but I don’t know how he could have been better employed. In fact, it’s a miracle he got in at all given they’re in prison. 
Any ideas?

Kryten is a maintenance droid. Holly is an advanced supercomputer. Even in a senile state, he should be significantly more knowledgeable. If Blake’s 7 found room for both Zen and Orac at the same time, I don’t see why Red Dwarf can’t do the same. 
Not to mention that Norman and Robert’s humour is entirely different, so it’s not like they’d fulfil the same comedic function. 

I meant more that Kryten does all the exposition that Holly used to do. 

If anything, Hattie works better in the full cast alongside Kryten because she at least adds a different dynamic and can react in ways that Norm wouldn’t (like swooning at Ace). 

[Turk Thrust]

I don’t really know how you fit Holly in on a show with Kryten in it, which was part of the reason the character was axed, as I recall. I feel for him being underused in that series but I don’t know how he could have been better employed. In fact, it’s a miracle he got in at all given they’re in prison. 
Any ideas?

While it’s true that Kryten took away some of Holly’s role, I think it would be possible to give Norman’s Holly a reasonable amount to do. 

He and Lister shared plenty of funny conversations in the first couple of series that weren’t simply about exposition. 

But Series VIII had far too many characters (and I think there are also far too many voices on the DVD commentary).

[Dave]

Red Dwarf doesn’t normally have room for 5 regulars getting their fair share, but Series VIII could have been the exception and planned around this to showcase everyone across its longer run

It’s even more challenging if you consider it to be six regulars, with both Holly and Kochanski.

(Having said that I think some sitcoms historically have managed to handle six leads, I’m sure there was some obscure American one from the 90s that did alright.)

[Ian Symes]

Ah yeah, the American remake of Coupling.

[Flap Jack]

If Blake’s 7 found room for both Zen and Orac at the same time, I don’t see why Red Dwarf can’t do the same.

That’s a big “if”. They did kind of make it work by making Orac the one who would actually do advanced science stuff, while Zen would mainly just follow ship control requests, but IMO it never stopped feeling weird that they had 2 voice only computer characters. There was no practical reason it couldn’t have just been Orac doing both.

Although personally I would have picked Zen, because Zen is generally pleasant while Orac is kind of a prick, to put it mildly.

In Red Dwarf’s case, I don’t think dividing Kryten and Holly up by “one is a maintenance droid, one is an advanced supercomputer” really works. In theory it makes sense, but in practice the science and exposition aspects of Kryten were the dominant part of his characterisation from Series III onwards (e.g. he’s the one to suggest and administer the mind swap in Bodyswap). I know that Kryten’s status as a toilet cleaning robot got emphasised as a joke more and more as the show went on, but he was always a proactive and equal member of the gang. If you took away his science stuff and handed it to Holly, he would be effectively reduced to a tag-along who just offers quips about how much enjoys washing pants. It would be a betrayal of the character as we know him.

I do think it is possible to include both Kryten and Holly and give them both enough to do, but I just don’t think that would be the way to do it.

[Dave]

If you took away his science stuff and handed it to Holly, he would be effectively reduced to a tag-along who just offers quips about how much enjoys washing pants.

[gerrydelasel]

Kryten and Holly are both machines but they have completely different personalities. Kryten is dilligent and eager to serve; Holly is laid back and indifferent. Kryten has personal autonymy; Holly is trapped inside screens. A good writer can handle these two characters with ease and give them both air time.

[International Debris]

And yet Rob and Doug really struggled.

[Turk Thrust]

And yet Rob and Doug really struggled.

True.

I wonder what would have happened if Norman had stayed. Something tells me that he would have fought hard for his character and maybe Holly wouldn’t have become quite so sidelined.

I know that later on Holly was just a bit part, but that was when Norman was returning to the show as almost a guest actor.

[Dax101]

Zuzp

[Ian Symes]

[Dax101]

I suspect the issue is that they often forgot Holly existed. If they needed something explained then Kryten could do that. Hollys role at least for Hattie was about ship related stuff but how often was that a thing going forward?

Doug said Norman hated doing the explaining stuff and just wanted to do jokes. Which really we got that in Series 8. 

I imagine Holly often ended up written in later rather than naturally.

[Moonlight]

I recently slogged through VIII in a complete series watchthrough and basically any time Norman pops up after Back in the Red I’m like “Oh, right, Holly’s in this.”

[Rushy]

Holly’s return to glory is by far my favourite thing about the Promised Land. I’m so glad they got it right. 

[Dax101]

Oddly i think Norman is more Holly after they reboot him up to default settings, then when they restore his memories and whatever later on. And i think that’s because Series 1 and 2 Holly, even though senile, also felt more grounded and had more personality rather than just quirks. He felt like a character who had opinions and would ask questions. But the moment they restore his memories in TPM, he sorta falls back into that series 8 clueless-about-everything character. Now that might be because he didn’t get a lot to do after that. But it still felt that way to me. 

Same with his scene in Skipper actually, when he is playing pre-radiation leak Holly. He seems to have been written better that time also

[Rushy]

Oddly i think Norman is more Holly after they reboot him up to default settings

The bit that could be straight out of series 2 is when he reveals he heard the whole conversation. That cheeky smirk is pure 1988 Holly. 

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I think Holly and Kryten can co-exist together but the show needs 90mins to really allow for 5 characters to shine in screen. Hell, even 4.  Lest we forget Cat it basically a punchline machine most of the time and never drives story.

Holly in TPL is fantastic because he is given the opportunity to do the things Kryten can’t do, and is allowed to exist as a computer and have jokes about that existence be a part of it.

In series 1 and 2 he is great when he’s just having a laugh and being mischievous – whilst a slightly different take on it in TPL, he does sort of force the crew into a situation in much the same way he does in Queeg, only this time genuinely rather than for a laugh.

He then is placed at the end as Red Dwarf, and it is Red Dwarf in a way that ultimately saves the day and comes to their rescue.

But you can’t squeeze that into a 30min episode

He could have had more to do in VIII if it wasn’t for the fact there were about 16 other characters all fighting for screen time. But he is reduced unfortunately to just being a gag machine once an episode.

[Dax101]

 He could have had more to do in VIII if it wasn’t for the fact there were about 16 other characters all fighting for screen time. But he is reduced unfortunately to just being a gag machine once an episode.

I don’t know if the amount of characters is a good excuse for it really. The setting with holly worked best when he could appear on a monitor. But when they kept using the Holly watch i think it reduced the amount of times he could appear as you had to keep cutting away to the watch. But at the same time, maybe he could have been mixed into the bunkroom scenes with Lister and Rimmer like he would in the early days? Rather than just appear for a sketch about turning into a dog and then being turned off. So I’d say it had more to do with how he was used rather than not having the time

That cheeky smirk is pure 1988 Holly. 

He did that in Series 8 also. But then i think Norman appears more smirky than deadpan in series 8. 

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Well, the whole of series VIII did no-one any favours. Setting, number of characters, premise, writing ….

[Dave]

[gerrydelasel]

[Unrumble]

But Series VIII had far too many characters (and I think there are also far too many voices on the DVD commentary).

Yeah, my predominant memory of my one viewing with the commentary, was of too many people talking over each other. 

The format was already creaking in III & IV, with four blokes giving Hattie no room

[Rushy]

Mac was the dark horse of the VIII commentaries. I wish they’d brought him in for I and II. 

I could also listen to Craig and Norman talk about anything really. 

[Flap Jack]

But when they kept using the Holly watch i think it reduced the amount
of times he could appear as you had to keep cutting away to the watch.

I don’t think this is a substantial enough reason on its own. The watch is an excuse for Holly to be visually in the scene so that cutting to him speaking makes sense, but that doesn’t mean the character wearing the watch needs to stop and look at their wrist every time he speaks. Practically it should work just like a regular scene with Holly on the ship, just without him featuring in the wide shots.

Obviously the Holly watch is bad, but for me it’s because it feels wrong for Holly to be quite so compact and portable.

[International Debris]

The problem with VIII Holly is he has no authority. In the first two series he’s basically the dad, whatever he says and does actually affects everyone else, he drives the plot, he’s the ship personified. In VIII he’s… well, I dunno, is he in prison? It’s never really explained. But he’s just a face on a screen, he can do the odd joke about looking at supplies or whatever, but ultimately he’s like the rest of them, really: someone to do a gag when it’s needed.

The closest thing to proper Holly we get is, ironically, the conehead version.

[Warbodog]

[Me Own Stunts]

I absolutely adored Hayridge’s version of Holly, and the dynamic with her and Llewellyn in the cast was the first one I knew before the 1994 repeats.  I learned on the DVD commentaries that Rob and Doug were embarrassed that they couldn’t give her a bigger role, but I felt she was omnipresent on the ship and never really experienced her lack of lines as a lack of being there and being amazing.  I missed her so much in series 6.

Just having Holly humming away in the background in series 1-5 was amazing.  This life of the ship that had its roots in everything and its face on the screen patiently waiting to be involved in discussion.  I loved that.

[Me Own Stunts]

Mac was the dark horse of the VIII commentaries. I wish they’d brought him in for I and II. 
I could also listen to Craig and Norman talk about anything really. 

One of my favourite parts of the series VIII documentary is when he points out how underbaked the mirror universe concept is by saying that when he was there he could play violin, because that’s the opposite of not being able to play violin.

[Warbodog]

Just having Holly humming away in the background in series 1-5 was amazing.

Yeah, I’m happy with that. But considering they ‘fixed’ Rimmer’s limitations in series VI and got Cat more involved, they didn’t seem to want passive characters any more.

[Podey]

This thread has made me realise that series 4-5 is my “default” view of the show, both in terms of personnel and tone/feel. I never saw Norm’s Holly until I got the videos, so Hattie’s Holly was the one I saw first.

[Turk Thrust]

I’ve always felt that bringing Norman back at the start of Series VII would have been one of the best chances to utilize Holly. Not that he could have been a direct replacement for Rimmer, but it might have cushioned the blow of Chris leaving a little. Plus, having both Holly and Kochanski on board might have been a better bet than what was seen as the straight swap of Kochanski for Rimmer.

[International Debris]

Hurrah, another vote for the ‘they should have found Red Dwarf at the start of VII’ team. 

[Unrumble]

Hurrah, another vote for the ‘they should have found Red Dwarf at the start of VII’ team. 

[gerrydelasel]

Hurrah, another vote for the ‘they should have found Red Dwarf at the start of VII’ team

Bingo. The video I created at the start of this thread is a setup for that. 

[Dave]

[Author]

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