I don’t see the problem with Timewave

[Rushy]

This episode seems to get a lot of roasting on the forum and I’m not really sure why. I thought the satire on Twitter safe space culture was on point. The characters were so flamboyant, because that’s how people behave – acting all sugary sweet, justifying all their flaws as “quirks” while taking no responsibility.

I’ll grant you that it’s not the funniest episode ever, but I’ve also seen a lot worse. It’s very middle of the road for me. 

Topic

[Warbodog]

Right from the start (“Planet Rimmer! Planet Rimmer!”, or maybe even from the green screen if it’s that bad), it just seemed like a Buckaroo of cringe and bad gags that never turned around for me. I only really liked Cat’s (also unpopular) titties tirade, enjoyably over the top for the purpose.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

> I thought the satire on Twitter safe space culture was on point.

I’m not sure what this is meant to mean in the context of the episode, but given Twitter is overrun by nazis and bigots its an even more baffling sentence.

The main issue people take from the episode is the suggestion that without some form of societal restraint, people would descend into some mad, camp frenzy.  There’s also an undertone of homosexuality and cross dressing being a bad thing.

It also just doesn’t make sense.  Not everyone would suddenly do a different job.  Cooks cook a lot of the time because they like to cook.  They’re not all frustrated pilots with no skill.  It suggests zero competency on anyones part, which is nonsensical really.

Cat has some really dodgy and offensive “jokes” that just don’t suit the Cat’s character.

Lister is *incredibly* judgemental which is not his character at all.

The writing is poor and it’s just not really an episode of Red Dwarf in most peoples eyes.

Which is a shame as the inner critic stuff at the end is fantastic (spit on her wrist aside) – the idea and the acting from Chris is brilliant.

But it’s all wrapped up in men in dresses is bad, without being stopped people would wear pink and that’s bad. People should express themselves or even try their hand at art or being a musician that’s bad.  Being yourself in any capacity is bad.

[Dave]

It suggests zero competency on anyones part, which is nonsensical really.

[Rushy]

Right from the start (“Planet Rimmer! Planet Rimmer!”)

I feel like that’s a good gag, it’s just overacted. 

 I’m not sure what this is meant to mean in the context of the episode, but given Twitter is overrun by nazis and bigots its an even more baffling sentence.

There’s all kinds of coddling going on on Twitter, with people who refuse to tolerate anyone with different viewpoints and immediately become furious and judgmental. Like, I get wanting to be true to yourself, but also that sort of attitude is just not how you function in the world. It’s like people have forgotten how to mediate and find common ground. I’m not talking about either side of the political spectrum. It happens with both left and right wing people. 

Doug is obviously parodying certain aspects of LGBT culture with those flamboyant costumes and Ziggy’s performance, people who hyperfixate on cartoons, speak in an irritating childish vocabulary and pat each other on the back for existing, but I think that’s more down to the era the episode was set in. If he made Timewave now, I wouldn’t be surprised if they all wore red hats and Ziggy acted like Andrew Tate. My point is that it’s a decent satire of how people behave on that site. 

Lister is *incredibly* judgemental which is not his character at all. 

I also disagree with this. I noticed this earlier in DNA.

LISTER: “Look, I know it’s old-fashioned, but I’m from the school who believe if God had intended us to fly, he wouldn’t have invented Spanish air traffic control. OK, that machine might be able to cure diseases and stuff, but you shouldn’t use it to change you into what you’re not. You are what you are.”

RIMMER: “Oh, here we go. Typical knee-jerk techno-fear reaction.”

It sounds eerily similar to modern day transphobia. I know the context is sci-fi, but really think about it. Lister – before Kryten has expressed any discomfort over being human – wants to scrap the entire idea purely because he thinks people should be what they’re “meant to be”. Not because the machine is untrustworthy, but simply because he feels that Kryten altering his physical body is a mistake on a fundamental level.

Whereas Rimmer is open-minded and tells Lister that it should be fine to improve your body to what you want it to be. 

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

> I wouldn’t be surprised if they all wore red hats and Ziggy acted like Andrew Tate. My point is that it’s a decent satire of how people behave on that site. 

the concern is, it feels like Doug is in someways writing from the perspective of red hat wearing Andrew Tates of the world by writing Timewave. It’s specifically calling out difference, and implying that without normative structures of society people would stop conforming entirely.

Nothing in the episode or what little has been said about it suggests it’s in anyway related to Twitter. The fact you see it and think it is representative of Twitter may just be your perception of Twitter

[Rushy]

Nothing in the episode or what little has been said about it suggests it’s in anyway related to Twitter. The fact you see it and think it is representative of Twitter may just be your perception of Twitter

You are correct, but at the same time, Doug is a writer from a time when satire was still employed with a certain degree of subtlety. He wrote Mechocracy without having to mention Trump or MAGA or even America itself, something that many nowadays would have (looking at you, Picard s2 subplot about ICE). So if he did do a story about people on Twitter, I fully believe he wouldn’t necessarily reference social media. 

[Ian Symes]

Doug is obviously parodying certain aspects of LGBT culture with those flamboyant costumes and Ziggy’s performance, people who hyperfixate on cartoons, speak in an irritating childish vocabulary and pat each other on the back for existing, but I think that’s more down to the era the episode was set in. If he made Timewave now, I wouldn’t be surprised if they all wore red hats and Ziggy acted like Andrew Tate. My point is that it’s a decent satire of how people behave on that site.

Part of the problem is the suggestion that being part of “LGBT culture” is just as deserving of criticism as being a racist and/or misogynist.

[Ian Symes]

He wrote Mechocracy without having to mention Trump or MAGA or even America itself, something that many nowadays would have

Crucially, he wrote Mechocracy before Trump’s first election campaign.

[Rushy]

implying that without normative structures of society people would stop conforming entirely

I think it’s meant to be a problem specific to the Enconium. The Crit Cop mentions that “the ship was a shambles. Everyone arguing, constantly choosing new captains”. None of that sounds normal to begin with, so the Enconium cannot and does not represent normal society. 

Also worth noting that Twitter itself does not represent ‘normal society’, but rather an isolated culture that exists purely on social media. 

The story of Timewave is less about what would happen in normal society and more a parable about how to behave on social media. Accepting that if you’re online, you’re bound to be criticised by other people so you should take it on the chin. 

[Ian Symes]

LISTER: “Look, I know it’s old-fashioned, but I’m from the school who believe if God had intended us to fly, he wouldn’t have invented Spanish air traffic control. OK, that machine might be able to cure diseases and stuff, but you shouldn’t use it to change you into what you’re not. You are what you are.”

RIMMER: “Oh, here we go. Typical knee-jerk techno-fear reaction.”

It sounds eerily similar to modern day transphobia. I know the context is sci-fi, but really think about it. Lister – before Kryten has expressed any discomfort over being human – wants to scrap the entire idea purely because he thinks people should be what they’re “meant to be”. Not because the machine is untrustworthy, but simply because he feels that Kryten altering his physical body is a mistake on a fundamental level.

Whereas Rimmer is open-minded and tells Lister that it should be fine to improve your body to what you want it to be. 

I can sort of see where you’re coming from, but this is a massive stretch. Kryten had never previously had any desire to change his species. He never felt like he was a human trapped in a mechanoid’s body. He only changed by accident. It would only be analogous if trans people were just cis people who happened trip and land open-mouthed in a pile of HRT tablets.

[Rushy]

Part of the problem is the suggestion that being part of LGBT culture is just as deserving of criticism as being a racist and/or misogynist.

Being part of it isn’t, but surely the LGBT culture itself is not above being criticised.

[Rushy]

Kryten had never previously had any desire to change his species. He never felt like he was a human trapped in a mechanoid’s body. He only changed by accident. It would only be analogous if trans people were just cis people who happened trip and land open-mouthed in a pile of HRT tablets.

But his entire arc is about breaking his programming – i. e. his natural state of being. Developing human emotions that his creators obviously hadn’t planned for and even found objectionable. Reaching out to become more human than mechanoid. 

That’s why I find DNA so interesting, because Lister clearly doesn’t like the idea of mechanoid servitude, but he also finds the idea of Kryten becoming fully human uncomfortable. 

While Rimmer thinks Kryten should be whatever he wants to be… as long as he follows orders. 

It makes both of their characters more complex and realistic imo. 

[International Debris]

Doug is obviously parodying certain aspects of LGBT culture with those flamboyant costumes and Ziggy’s performance, people who hyperfixate on cartoons, speak in an irritating childish vocabulary and pat each other on the back for existing, but I think that’s more down to the era the episode was set in. 

Yes because a decade ago it was common and fair game to rip into the LGBT community.

The episode has three flaws that make it unpopular:

1) what feels like a thinly veiled attack on queerness, with camp behaviour, men in dresses etc. being portrayed as bad, which feels absurdly dated and judgmental as a concept. 

2) there being zero internal logic to the plot anywhere – it runs on coincidences and contradictions, characters behaving very out if character (Lister wants to leave them all to die because of bad service in a restaurant; Ziggy isn’t in charge until he is; the weird focus on the mineral sand from Planet Rimmer that doesn’t go anywhere; the entire idea that no criticism would lead to everyone doing the wrong jobs)

3) possibly most importantly, there are very few good jokes and a lot of terrible ones. It’s just a desperately unfunny episode for the most part, albeit with a couple of very good scenes (the prison one and the inner critic, minus “spit on her wrist”). 

[Ian Symes]

I don’t believe that anything is above criticism, I’m just extremely wary about who is criticising it and why. I don’t actually think that Timewave was written with any specific intent to make any comment about queer people or queer culture, I just think it was a series of unrelated production decisions combining to create an unintended implication, and that it’s both disappointing and worrying that nobody spotted this before it was too late to change it.

[International Debris]

But his entire arc is about breaking his programming – i. e. his natural state of being. Developing human emotions that his creators obviously hadn’t planned for and even found objectionable. Reaching out to become more human than mechanoid. 

Which Lister not only encouraged, but arguably started. So I don’t see how that tallies with Lister being judgmental. 

[Rushy]

But his entire arc is about breaking his programming – i. e. his natural state of being. Developing human emotions that his creators obviously hadn’t planned for and even found objectionable. Reaching out to become more human than mechanoid. 

Which Lister not only encouraged, but arguably started. So I don’t see how that tallies with Lister being judgmental. 

Lister encouraged Kryten to be more than he is, but he also never anticipated a situation where Kryten could actually become his equal.

It’s sort of how Rimmer always thinks he’s whipping Lister into shape, but gets uncomfortable every time Lister actually comes close to advancing rank. 

I’ve always felt that on some subconscious level, Lister and Rimmer are more alike than they would ever admit to. Even though Lister is content with his life, he is also capable of being ambitious, spiteful and classist. 

[International Debris]

Lister encouraged Kryten to be more than he is, but he also never anticipated a situation where Kryten could actually become his equal.

I mean if you genuinely think that subtext is there in DNA, fair enough, but I don’t find a hint of it. The episode is about being true to who you are: Kryten is not a human, he’s a mechanoid, and altering his body doesn’t change that. There is no trans allegory here, unless you believe that trans women are actually still men and trans men are still women (something that goes against all the medical and sociological study into the topic). 

[Flap Jack]

Aside from the episode being about as funny as a brick to the face for a majority of its runtime, the biggest problem is that to be an effective satire, you actually have to comment on reality. “People take the concept of safe spaces and respecting other people’s identities so far that they stop caring if things actually work and decide expertise doesn’t matter” isn’t a comic exaggeration on how liberal communities behave either online or offline, it’s wholly an invention of right wing propaganda. It’s a slippery slope argument where the top of the slope and the bottom are in different hemispheres.

There is a germ of a decent idea there, but if it were authentic it would be effectively the opposite result. Everyone would only consider themselves beyond criticism, and criticise everyone else freely and eagerly. The episode would be about how the various groups on the Enconium can’t resolve any problems because they’re constantly arguing about minor points even though they all agree on the major ones. That’s what left-wing Twitter is/was actually like. (I know this was essentially the backstory to the Enconium in the episode, but the point is there would be no feasible way to get from that state of affairs to the current one.)

It also feels disingenuous to suggest that the premise of Timewave mocks all extremes of the political spectrum, when it so perfectly lines up with the reactionary right’s talking points against “DEI” – that the left is systemically allowing incompetent people to do jobs they’re obviously unqualified for because they’re afraid of being called sexist or racist, and that if a political minority is in a position of power or influence, they must not deserve it. Ziggy Briceman being a gay stereotype who is also an incompetent leader is close as the episode can get to having Rimmer or Lister turn to the camera and say “Well no wonder this ship is in shambles. They’ve put a f***** in charge.” Doug may not have intended this to be the message, but it’s the one he put out.

Of course the right wing literally do put incompetents in powerful positions all the time, but along very different lines and for different reasons. If the Enconium had allocated all of its biggest roles to its wealthiest or most bigoted crewmembers, then it wouldn’t just be the same concept but suited to 8 years later, it would be the politically opposite concept.

Plus the episode got off on the wrong foot before they even reached the Enconium, in the way it retconned Rimmer’s childhood to be one where the real reason he’s so fucked up is because everyone got participation trophies and nobody was allowed to legitimately succeed or fail. You know, the exact opposite of everything we know about Rimmer, and yet another right wing talking point that isn’t a real thing. Doug should have at least limited these ideas to the Enconium crew.

The thing is we know the concept of Timewave can be done well, because the Simpsons episode “Bart’s Inner Child” exists. Even that was mediocre by the standards of that era of the show, but it worked a whole lot better because it was about people across the board neglecting their responsibilities, not them taking on responsiblities they couldn’t handle. And when things go wrong because of it, they care about it.

[International Debris]

That’s incredibly well expressed, but I think it’s important to add one thing: this was the case back when the episode aired. A lot of these ideas have become more mainstream since then, especially this year, but these right wing views were still held, and expressed very vocally, ten years ago. And that’s why the episode got a negative reception here on first broadcast, because people recognised the problematic elements at the time. Doug might write it differently now, but the issue is that he should have written it differently then, too. 

[Flap Jack]

Right, exactly. The buzzword for it now may be “anti-DEI” which I used to make the point, but before it was “anti-woke” and “political incorrectness” before that.

[Dave]

I mean if you genuinely think that subtext is there in DNA, fair enough, but I don’t find a hint of it. The episode is about being true to who you are: Kryten is not a human, he’s a mechanoid, and altering his body doesn’t change that.

Yes, I agree – I think DNA is not about Kryten becoming who he was all along, but pretending to be something he’s not. He feels motivated to remain human because he thinks it gives him a higher social standing and puts him above his mechanoid status – as evidenced by the superiority he shows when talking to his spare heads – not because he really considers himself to be human.

It’s about pretending to be what you’re not, rather than becoming what you truly are.

And I think the conversation between Rimmer and Lister (where Rimmer thinks Kryten should obviously want to be human because humans are the best, and Lister asks what’s really so great about being human) backs this up: Rimmer’s take is one of smug human superiority over mechanoids, whereas Lister sees them more as equals rather than as humans being inherently better than mechanoids.

(All of which makes Rimmer’s enjoyment of being a mechanoid in Siliconia even more interesting.)

[Jonsmad]

Based on how Doug talks about the experience of making the American pilot and being chastised by other production personnel as “the wave… (Of Negativity)”, I’ve always thought that California culture shock was at the heart of Timewave, then applied to the wider world of anti-critique. There is a little bit of roller skate and Americana diner LA cliché visible within timewaves production choices, (a production that was also due to budget-issues full of reused costumes. Things notably from “Spaced” and the film “Absolutely Anything” which further confuse the written target). Two dudes from Manchester in the 90’s may have rolled eyes at a lot of their experience in stateside TV production, from jet lag to because it wasnt going well.  

[sleepey]

He wrote Mechocracy without having to mention Trump or MAGA or even America itself, something that many nowadays would have (looking at you, Picard s2 subplot about ICE).

Minor point of order but Picard S2 was set in actual 2024 America for a bunch of reasons & had no need to try & abstract away the specifics of the era. ICE is something a Chilean spaceman with no documentation would have to deal with – that’s just a fact, if a bit of a silly one. Meanwhile Mechocracy is making broader, more relatable points about non-specific electoral politics, in a completely fictionalised time & place. It doesn’t make direct references because they would make no sense & date the jokes, not because there’s some inherent benefit to veiling commentary.

[Rushy]

Minor point of order but Picard S2 was set in actual 2024 America for a bunch of reasons & had no need to try & abstract away the specifics of the era. 

Not for any real artistic reasons. 
And abstracting the specifics of the era is essential, at least to me. It gives art a more timeless quality. Having a critique of ICE featuring the actual ICE organisation just comes across as unsubtle moralising. Even if the morals are valid, it’s just never going to be something I enjoy watching. Which also means that the lesson it’s trying to impact has less effectiveness. 
Of course, it doesn’t help that the writing quality of that show in general was shockingly poor.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

> Even if the morals are valid, it’s just never going to be something I enjoy watching. Which also means that the lesson it’s trying to impact has less effectiveness. 

“I agree with this, but I don’t like being told I agree with it to so I won’t enjoy it and take less thought from it” is certainly a pretty unique take. 

[Rushy]

> “I agree with this, but I don’t like being told I agree with it to so I won’t enjoy it and take less thought from it” is certainly a pretty unique take. 

Why?

There’s no artistry in just writing a Star Trek story saying that “ICE is evil”. There is artistry in inventing an ICE-like organisation oppressing a unique alien culture. 

This is like if Star Trek: Enterprise had done a story directly about 9/11 instead of having a Xindi probe attack Earth. It becomes tacky and in-your-face. 

[Flap Jack]

There’s artistry, but there can also be cowardice. People sometimes want to tell a story about real politics, but they don’t want to alienate potential readers who agree with the politics the story is against, so they make it abstract unnecessarily. This is how you end up with Star Wars and Star Trek having so many conservative fans.

Of course with fantasy and sci-fi you often need a level of abstraction for it to make sense with the setting, but not always. It can be good to directly address the point rather than dance around it, if the opportunity arises. Sincerity isn’t something to be embarrassed about.

[Dave]

[Unrumble]

[Spaceworm Jim]

Boys from the Black Stuff is a work of art. I think that’s all I have to say at the moment.

[Rushy]

There’s artistry, but there can also be cowardice. People sometimes want to tell a story about real politics, but they don’t want to alienate potential readers who agree with the politics the story is against, so they make it abstract unnecessarily. 

I don’t like the idea of intentionally alienating viewers. If people want to read different politics into something, they’re entitled to that. A person’s own experience with art is king.  

That’s why Star Trek TNG will stand the test of time, and Star Trek Picard will not. One told parables that hold true for all walks of life, and taught people to appreciate other cultures and viewpoints as equals while also holding true to your own morals. 

The other is hoarsely yelling in your ear without an ounce of the same talent and depth of character. 

[Spaceworm Jim]

Timewave alienated a lot of people (possibly accidentally, but that might be too much generosity, I don’t know).
My personal issue with it is I don’t find a single joke in it funny.

Edit – this didn’t come across, but I don’t think star trek Picard intentionally alienated anyone.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

If someone is upset by the morality of Star Trek then they’re probably worth alienating. No point treading a centrist line to keep fascists happy 

[Ben Saunders]

I laugh at “circumcisions gone wrong” from time to time.

[Ben Saunders]

It’s tough when something is woke and shit, but not shit because it’s woke. You look like one of them if you dare criticise the thing, and you have to be like nooooooo I hate it for actual reasons not just because there’s a girl in it, honest. Then you get people who are like, it’s good and unassailable because it’s woke actually. I basically completely abandoned talking about Doctor Who to anybody/reading any discussion of it partially for these reasons and honestly I think my life has improved substantially since. Star Wars was the same, nobody I know really talks about Star Trek anyway but it happened there too. 

Picard S1 and S2 were so awful no matter how many people tell me S3 is good actually, I just can’t bring myself to even torrent it.

[Dave]

It’s tough when something is woke and shit, but not shit because it’s woke. You look like one of them if you dare criticise the thing, and you have to be like nooooooo I hate it for actual reasons not just because there’s a girl in it, honest. Then you get people who are like, it’s good and unassailable because it’s woke actually. I basically completely abandoned talking about Doctor Who to anybody/reading any discussion of it partially for these reasons and honestly I think my life has improved substantially since. Star Wars was the same, nobody I know really talks about Star Trek anyway but it happened there too. 

Yeah, I think it’s become more difficult to discuss these shows and movies that are caught up in any kind of political agenda, because if you only care about whether a show is good or not, then people can misinterpret your feelings as being somehow politically oriented to whatever angle those things are pushing, when you’re just being honest about whether a story is any good or not.

It isn’t helped by the fact that progressive qualities have been cynically exploited as marketing hooks by the people who make these movies and TV shows, turning them into a political battleground before they’ve even aired.

The truth is I think there are very few people who care either way about these woke/anti-woke arguments when it comes to these things, most people just want a good viewing experience regardless of all the politics surrounding it.

But it can still feel difficult to tune out that noise sometimes and just enjoy things on their own merits.

[Rudolph]

It’s tough when something is woke and shit, but not shit because it’s woke. You look like one of them if you dare criticise the thing, and you have to be like nooooooo I hate it for actual reasons not just because there’s a girl in it, honest. Then you get people who are like, it’s good and unassailable because it’s woke actually. I basically completely abandoned talking about Doctor Who to anybody/reading any discussion of it partially for these reasons and honestly I think my life has improved substantially since. Star Wars was the same, nobody I know really talks about Star Trek anyway but it happened there too. 

Picard S1 and S2 were so awful no matter how many people tell me S3 is good actually, I just can’t bring myself to even torrent it.

Anybody: Well, I thought…

The Internet:

[Warbodog]

I always meant to get around to [enriching celebrated classic], but I was too busy watching [derided franchise show] that I wasn’t enjoying and polluting my experience.

I fell for it too in the 2010s, but we should all know better now.

[International Debris]

I don’t like the idea of intentionally alienating viewers.        

Yes, all the best art has traditionally made its message oblique for fear of upsetting the very people it is criticising. 

[Nick R]

It’s tough when something is woke and shit, but not shit because it’s woke. You look like one of them if you dare criticise the thing, and you have to be like nooooooo I hate it for actual reasons not just because there’s a girl in it, honest.

“You boycotted the live-action remakes of The Little Mermaid and Snow White because they didn’t cast white actors as the princesses. Whereas I didn’t watch them because Disney’s live-action remakes don’t have a good track record and these looked like particularly poor examples.”

[Technopeasant]

implying that without normative structures of society people would stop conforming entirely
I think it’s meant to be a problem specific to the Enconium. The Crit Cop mentions that “the ship was a shambles. Everyone arguing, constantly choosing new captains”. None of that sounds normal to begin with, so the Enconium cannot and does not represent normal society. 

Kind of renders the satire pointless then doesn’t it?

But yeah, Timewave would be terrible even without the subtext. I’m not even that fond of the Inner Critic, though Tut Johnson is at least somewhat endearing.

[Technopeasant]

  Not for any real artistic reasons.

Because Star Trek has NEVER had an episode set contemporaneously.

For the record, I haven’t seen any Nu Trek. Just started going through TOS week by week. I might get to it in ten years.

[Technopeasant]

He wrote Mechocracy without having to mention Trump or MAGA or even America itself

Yeah, Ive always thought it odd people assumed it was about the 2016 US election (the timing aside). The absurd party names are much more a parody of European politics if anything.

[Rushy]

If someone is upset by the morality of Star Trek then they’re probably worth alienating. No point treading a centrist line to keep fascists happy 

Centrism is not fascism. And conservatism is not automatically fascism either.  

It’s tough when something is woke and shit, but not shit because it’s woke. You look like one of them if you dare criticise the thing, and you have to be like nooooooo I hate it for actual reasons not just because there’s a girl in it, honest. Then you get people who are like, it’s good and unassailable because it’s woke actually. I basically completely abandoned talking about Doctor Who to anybody/reading any discussion of it partially for these reasons and honestly I think my life has improved substantially since. Star Wars was the same, nobody I know really talks about Star Trek anyway but it happened there too. 

Picard S1 and S2 were so awful no matter how many people tell me S3 is good actually, I just can’t bring myself to even torrent it.

Yes, this is what I meant. I don’t generally mind the message they’re trying to convey, but it’s so hamfistedly told that it puts me off. 

The whole reason for conveying a message through television is to try and educate the audience, to make them think. If you do a bad job at that, it sabotages the lesson much like a bad teacher would make you not care about what you’re trying to learn. 

[Technopeasant]

Centrism is not fascism. And conservatism is not automatically fascism either.

[Technopeasant]

I laugh at “circumcisions gone wrong” from time to time.

[loadoftottnumb]

If you don’t see the problem with Timewave then there isn’t one. It’s just an episode of a sitcom. 

FWIW I don’t think it’s particularly trans/homophobic or right wing rhetoric. That gives Doug and the episode too much credit. 

It’s quite explicitly about how people can’t take criticism. The idea is to show what a shit show life is going to be if it carries on like that, but as others have mentioned, it’s executed poorly (in my/their opinion). 

A society without criticism doesn’t mean no one would fix a broken lift and it doesn’t mean law enforcement uniforms would be flamboyant. 

Like I say, to suggest it’s a veiled attack on LBGT or anything left wing I think gives the writer too much credit whilst at the same time doing him a disservice. There has been nothing in nearly 40 years of Red Dwarf to suggest he’d attack people for their sexuality or gender. 

[sleepey]

Pretty sure everyone’s given him the benefit of the doubt over it being an intentional attack. Saying the episode has homophobic elements isn’t an accusation, any more than saying the plot is nonsense & the jokes are unfunny mean he’s secretly been a bad writer the whole time. Sometimes shit just comes out wrong.

[Technopeasant]

I’d broadly agree the homophobia isn’t intentional, but the St. Trembles stuff is a bit too close for comfort, especially since as discussed it directly contradicts what we know about Rimmer’s parents.

[Technopeasant]

[Author]

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