Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum Lost Red Dwarf content?

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  • #235216

    Are there any lost Red Dwarf content such as footage, scripts, or other material not having previously been shown to the fans?

    Only material I can think of are the unseen movie drafts and the scripts for Earth and Phwoaar, anything else?

    #235220
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    Someone else tell him. I’ve got gussets to scrub.

    #235224
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    Off the top of my head, the only other lost content I can think of is the original final 2 episodes for Red Dwarf X, which would have concluded the finding-Kochanski arc. I think Doug said in an interview one of them involved a monster that had been onboard the Trojan since they found it, but didn’t reveal itself until later in the series (hence the name Trojan)

    #235225
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    also Quarantine was originally an episode where everyone got psi-powers and put them to use

    #235227

    I think Doug said in an interview one of them involved a monster that had been onboard the Trojan since they found it, but didn’t reveal itself until later in the series (hence the name Trojan)

    I’d always assumed the title was referring to Sim Crawford’s betrayal, never knew this. I also heard there was an episode involving a circus which is probably cooler in my head than what it would’ve actually been like

    #235236
    clem
    Participant

    > an episode involving a circus

    Are you thinking of Charles Armitage on the X documentary? Can’t remember exactly what he says but I didn’t think he was talking about an actual episode, just giving an example of the kind of idea Doug writes without thinking about how much it could cost.

    #235238
    Richietee
    Participant

    The full footage of Rupert Bates from the chef’s exam in Balance of Power that plays in the background I think might be lost I seem to recall that’s the reason it wasn’t included on Bodysnatcher

    #235241
    Dax101
    Participant

    >Doug said in an interview one of them involved a monster that had been onboard the Trojan since they found it, but didn’t reveal itself until later in the series (hence the name Trojan)

    Going by Dougs recent Red Dwarf Stories i can’t imagine it would actually be some sorta monster or gelf. My belief is that it was just gonna be the monkey that he ended up using in entangled.

    They did talk of plans for the monkey with an episode where Rimmer was using it to pass the exam but lister disagreed with him doing it like they were its parents

    I feel like if this was around the series 5,6 or 7 era it probably would be a monster or something but it would probably end up something comedic for modern dwarf.

    #235244
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    An early draft of Trojan (entitled Slow Rescue) involved the ship crashed on a desert moon where an electrical storm was about to destroy the place. The posse venture over in Starbug and there’s an extremely brief scene in the cockpit where they discuss what kind of ship it is. They step out onto the planet’s surface (in spacesuits but helmetless as it’s an s3 planet) and attempt to break into the ship. Onboard, they discover a mysterious locked security vault. However it’ll take a long time to break it open and the ship will soon be destroyed, so Lister suggests bringing it into Red Dwarf’s landing bay.

    Source: Series X documentary, they show you a couple of pages of the script during the bit on Trojan. Interesting about the security vault, as that’s not at all in the finished episode. Maybe would’ve been to do with the monster that was supposedly onboard?

    #235246
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    Mind you that’s not really ‘lost’ content as every single episode will have had early drafts containing ideas that weren’t in the final version of the show.

    More trivia-Krytie TV’s second half was to be about Rimmer and Lister’s appeal (an actual one, not the guitar one like in the actual episode) only to discover their hearing was rigged to fail by Krytie TV for the in-prison gambling, because it made good television.

    The action-movie style intro to Stoke Me A Clipper was originally set in space, with Ace destroying a Simulant ship rather than a Nazi plane.

    And of course there’s Earth, the original finale to VIII. Taking place after Only The Good… the posse use antimatter from the mirror universe to travel at close to lightspeed, ending in them crashing into Earth , destroying all the major monuments (except the Taj Mahal, as Lister goes “that would be sacrieleige, man.”) and creating a huge tidal wave which wiped out all the “extremely sophisticated, happy future people”. Rimmer and the others would get out of the finally stationary ship going “Sorry, didn’t see you there. Sorry.” and then fade out as they exchange insurance details with one of the few survivors of the impact. Doug later stated it was probably better they ended up not doing this one, as someone who read the script for it told him it was too similar to the Doctor Who episode “Earthshock”

    Source: Programme Guide, Paul Alexander interview

    #235247
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    There was also a plan for a Series I episode in which the cartoon Mugs Murphy character came to life and started to roam around the ship.

    Backwards came about as Rob and Doug wanted to do an episode set entirely underwater. After being told they couldn’t, they decided to do a backwards episode instead.

    Series IV’s final episode was meant to be based off of the Garbage World section from the BTL novel, with all the cockroaches and rubbish and stuff.

    In Series VI, Rob and Doug wanted Cat to get a space illness that would turn him into Duane Dibbley whenever he got anxious, and so the crew had to keep calming him down to return to normal.

    There were also plans (around the time of VI) to do a Comic Relief skit where the posse battled Daleks from Doctor Who.

    #235249
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    That version of Trojan sounds great. As it is Trojan the ship is basically pointless, other than the quantum entanglement drive shite, but that brought us Entangled, which is poo, so I could live without it.

    Hopefully if they get recommissioned Doug can dig that beginning out again, although come to think of it it’s a bit similar to Timewave.

    #235252
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    as on the DVD-

    “EXT. DESERT MOON- NIGHT.

    The S.S Hoarse Trojan lies abandoned. Starbug swoops past. Lightning flashes across a
    brooding sky. There’s a storm brewing.

    INT. STARBUG- DAY.

    KRYTEN: S3 sirs, no helmets required.

    RIMMER: Bring her down a couple of clicks from the derry, we don’t want to trigger any moonquakes.

    EXT. DESERT MOON-LATER

    They tramp across the cold wintry desert towards the Trojan. Space suits, no helmets. ”

    ————————————————————

    “KRYTEN: Highly unlikely, sirs. This time tomorow the hull’s going
    to be holier than the Pope’s packet of Polo mints. This is so frustrating.
    There’s a security vault onboard and now we won’t have an opportunity to
    explore it. Forgive my industrial language but gosh, darn, cripes, fudge
    and fiddlesticks!

    LISTER: Wait a minute, readout says empty but maybe it’s not totally
    out. What’s the mileometer say?

    KRYTEN: Enough to fly seventy one miles.

    LISTER: We probably only need sixty.

    KRYTEN: (baffled) Sir?

    LISTER: Sixty miles’ll get us into orbit. We use the steering jets, drift
    the Trojan back to Red Dwarf, store her in one of the cargo bays.

    CAT: Then try to crack the combo on that vault.

    LISTER: What do you think?

    RIMMER: So long as the plan includes running away fast
    it gets my vote.”

    Honestly, this version of the script seems a little clunky. Kryten’s swearing outburst is weird, and the
    two-line long scene on Starbug feels unnecessary. Also it being called the “Hoarse Trojan” is a bit too silly

    #235255
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Yeah needs work but there’s a good episode in that concept. I like the “getting on with life” type build ups.

    Reminds me a little of the Nova 5 in IWCD if I’m remembering it correctly.

    #235256

    From what we know, the original drafts of X were much larger in scope, which was scuppered pretty early on, which is a shame. Landing on (largely) uninhabited planets, moons and asteroids is something from mid-era Dwarf that I really, really like visually.

    #235257
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    >Close to light-speed
    Nowhere near fast enough surely given that they’ve gone at light-speed already
    Also I don’t really buy the Earthshock similarity, the cliffhanger to Androzani 3 also features a ship crashing into a planet but it isn’t the same either

    #235258
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    >Also I don’t really buy the Earthshock similarity, the cliffhanger to Androzani 3 also features a ship crashing into a planet but it isn’t the same either

    The writers of the Programme Guide thought the same thing- after a quote from Doug about the Earthshock similarity, they add in brackets “(It isn’t that similar…)”

    >Nowhere near fast enough surely given that they’ve gone at light-speed already

    Yeah, I don’t get it either. You could put it down to Doug forgetting the events of Future Echoes, but it’s namedropped twice in VIII so he clearly hadn’t. Maybe they would’ve explained it somehow in Earth, I don’t know.

    #235259
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    Earth is the most intriguing “lost” episode of Red Dwarf to me to be honest, because the sequence of them smashing through all the major landmarks of Earth and then causing a massive tidal wave by landing in the sea sounds like it would’ve been visually amazing to look at. It also sounds like quite an epic and funny way to end the series, to be honest. There’s the argument that Red Dwarf shouldn’t have a finale where they finally get back home, but I genuinely think it would’ve been great. I suppose we’ll never know though.

    Side thought- I wonder if part of the script for Phwoarrr was used for XI? The premise of Phwoarr was that there was a Canaries mission where they find an crashed ship full of dead corpses who’d been sexed to death, which is incredibly similar to a scene from Samsara. Doug admitted he’s reused parts of old scripts for XI/XII in a recent interview (someone linked it in a thread on here a while back) so it’s a possibility.

    #235260

    sounds like it would’ve been visually amazing to look at

    Ah but

    VIII

    Maybe not.

    It’s an intriguing idea, and done well it would have been visually spectacular, but it would also be a shit end to the show. Exchanging insurance details with survivors is just really, really cartoony, in a very VIII way, that it doesn’t fit I – VII at all, so it’d be sad to have the definitive conclusion of the show in that way.

    #235261
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    >Exchanging insurance details with survivors is just really, really cartoony, in a very VIII way, that it doesn’t fit I – VII at all, so it’d be sad to have the definitive conclusion of the show in that way.

    I don’t really mind the more cartoonish parts of VIII, so I probably would’ve liked it. Exchanging insurance details after destroying something as colossal as a planet sounds pretty funny, in my opinion. Either way, I reckon it’d have been worth it just to see the spectacular model sequence of Red Dwarf crashlanding into Earth like a massive red meteorite.

    #235262
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    Either way it definitely would’ve been better than having Back In The Red Part 3.

    Although if VIII had ended with Earth, we might never have got BTE and X-XII, which would be quite sa. On the other hand, we might have ended up with an IX set on Earth with the posse exploring their home three million years in the future, which sounds intriguing at the very least

    #235284
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Yeah something tells me if we ended up getting Earth then it would have looked pretty shit given the rest of VIII also looking pretty shit. Who knows, though.

    #235285
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    the Starbug model crash looked pretty good though. so if it was on that level, then it would’ve looked amazing

    #235286
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    That was practical, if they could do the Earth crash practically it might be pretty spectacular, but I was envisioning really bad VIII-tier CGI lol

    #235287
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    The interior Starbug bit and the final coming to rest bit looked great in Twentica.

    The extremely PowerPoint 98 approach and ding off rock however, not so much.

    It would have been CG so we dodged a bullet. The practicalities of crashing a 12 foot long Red Dwarf model and the expense and probably lack of detail in a 3 or 4 foot one made for crashing would put paid to any notion of a practical effect I’d imagine.

    Chris Veale’s render farm melting and his Mum’s leccy bill would have been prohibitive too though. Doug had movies on his mind for that one.

    #235288
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    surely they would’ve done the Earth crash sequence with models- it was ludicrously hard to do explosions and interactions with materials like sand and water in CGI at the time (see Bodyswap Remastered for an example) which is presumably why Starbug crashing in BITR is model work- it would’ve actually been harder to do it with CG. So presumably had we had Earth,the crash would’ve involved models to some extent.

    Plus Doug says in the scriptbook they were working out costing for Earth and found out the crash sequence alone would cost them $100,000. So they must’ve been planning to do it with models to end up with that high of a price. Either that or Chris Veale was extorting the shit out of them

    #235289
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    >The interior Starbug bit and the final coming to rest bit looked great in Twentica.

    The extremely PowerPoint 98 approach and ding off rock however, not so much.

    The Twentica crash sequence was really weird, I thought. It’s the only model sequence in the whole of Red Dwarf that so wildly fluctuates between looking great and looking shit. It’s usually one or the other

    #235290
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    All true, Bodyswap remastered is horrific, and for that reason they would have wanted models, but the absolutely would have had to climb down and do it with CG because of practicality and it would have been absolutely terrible for said Bodyswap remastered reasons. $100,000, that would be I imagine about a sixth of the budget for a late 90’s Dwarf series?

    I think it would have been easier to do CG in terms of man hours and cost, but it would have looked worse obviously. I mean if you’re crashing into Earth you’re going to destroy a lot of it, you’re not going to stay in the desert, you’re going to gouge your way through a city or two. In that case with models you’re talking hundreds of tiny details, buildings, cars, people, compositing, multiple scales, massive model stages.

    I think they would have gone the Enterprise route, when the Xindi carve a big trench in the Earth, it was from a long way away. Basically Google Earth with effects on top.

    Basically I think Doug was on something strong if he ever thought that was realistically an option for anything other than a well funded movie.

    #235291
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    Maybe after the “sensibly ridiculous” budget of VII he assumed the BBC would give him similar for VIII? And then was subsequently horrified when presented a buget of about £7 and a bowl of grapes.

    I imagine the Earth crash sequence would’ve been done in a similar way to the Starbug scene from Back In The Red- the vast majority of the sequence done in CGI but then the actual impact and/or explosion at the end of the scene done with a model.

    #235292
    Dax101
    Participant

    Doug was just excited to have CGI to play with so they could do a lot of what would have been concidered cool back in 1999.

    As for the clunky Kryten dialogue in that script… I wish I could say there wasn’t a fair bit of that in XI,XI and XII.

    #235293
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    Doug seemed to have a thing for ambitious setpieces in VIII , often resulting in them being done mostly with CGI- there’s no way you could have done the rat-arsed scene with models, after all. Not unless you wanted to get arrested.

    Pete the dinosaur was also a combination of models and CGI- which is a weird one as the result isn’t terrible, but it hasn’t aged well as looking at it now it’s pretty obvious when they switch between the two.

    #235294
    Dax101
    Participant

    The Dinosaur, The Rat (originally a Cat), The Blue Midget Dance. It was all just to show off the effects they could pull off on the show.

    They don’t look spectacular today, but at the time just be it able to do it was probably a big deal.

    #235296
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    The dinosaur model is worse than the CG, the CG is just low res but it’s not bad really. The foot is so bad it’s not even worth this sentence mentioning it.

    The rat is a fair few polygons short of being photo realistic, and the animation is shithouse, and it’s got shoddy textures but an animatronic rat to scale with a Starbug would have probably looked worse for more money, the real success for me is the fan vent bit, good camera work there, nice and dynamic. I remember watching that in 1999 and thinking “holy shit, that’s cool”.

    VIII was just all over the place model and prop wise. You have nice models like the mirror universe generator and the crashed Starbug and hangar, and then utter rubbish like the baby dinosaur, dinosaur feet and time wand.

    And the dinosaur hole is possibly the worst effect of the lot. A horrible cartoony hole that’s all shimmery and weird. Ew.

    #235300
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    >And the dinosaur hole is possibly the worst effect of the lot. A horrible cartoony hole that’s all shimmery and weird. Ew.

    Oh yeah, definitely that looks shit. I really like most VIII but even I can’t defend that effect. It looks terrible and it’s also completely unnecessary- you could easily cut it from the episode, because even without the shot its obvious the dinosaur is rampaging.

    #235302

    I generally don’t care one way or the other for the VIII effects, but the worst offender is that cow prop. Words can’t properly sum up how fake and hokey that looks.

    #235304

    surely they would’ve done the Earth crash sequence with models

    I can’t think of a single British TV show in the history of TV that would have had the budget or facilities to do a genuinely impressive ‘five mile long spaceship obliterating Earth monuments’ sequence. It would have been CGI I’m sure, and it would have looked average at best.

    #235305

    The ship crashing into Big Ben in Doctor Who isn’t altogether terrible, in fact it looks pretty good.

    #235307
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    That was six years later and with a bit more money thrown at it than Red Dwarf.

    Red Dwarf VIII’s budget was the same as dinnerladies.

    dinnerladies.

    dinnerladies!

    I realise everyone knows this, but it’s not been stated for at least 17 minutes.

    #235308
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Doctor Who CGI frequently fluctuates between “surprisingly good” and “I an embarrassed to be watching this show”

    #235309
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    I seem to remember it going around at the time that New Who had a bigger budget per episode than Dwarf did per series by some margin.

    The Slitheen hitting Big Ben was a model but it’s one model building and one model ships wing. Bit different to Red Dwarf cutting a swath in the Earth.

    #235310

    If I remember correctly Doctor Who Series 3 was the one with the worst CGI like the Lazarus creature

    tho I explicitly remember for the Series 1 episode where Rose tries to save her dad or something, that flying obviously CGI creature actually has an effect with the environment so that was nice

    #235311
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    I’ve just watched that bit again, the Slitheen crash. Apart from the model section (which was only the wing and top of Big Ben) it’s not a million miles away from Series VIII to be honest. Not “fantastic” as Ecclescake would say. But as I say, that’s the world’s smallest new potato on the small potatoes scale compared to the potential crash in ‘Earth’.

    #235312
    Dax101
    Participant

    >I generally don’t care one way or the other for the VIII effects, but the worst offender is that cow prop. Words can’t properly sum up how fake and hokey that looks.

    Was that actually meant to be a real Cow? i really hope that wasn’t the idea.

    #235313
    Dave
    Participant

    That was six years later and with a bit more money thrown at it than Red Dwarf.

    Red Dwarf VIII’s budget was the same as dinnerladies.

    dinnerladies.

    dinnerladies!

    I realise everyone knows this, but it’s not been stated for at least 17 minutes.

    Yep, and Dinnerladies also had to abandon its planned finale in which a five-mile-long spaceship obliterates life on Earth by crashing through all its major landmarks. It’s a tragedy all round.

    #235314
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    Yeah, a ship’s wing smashing Big Ben isn’t that big compared to what would have been “caroming through the White House, totalling the Arc de Triomphe, skilfully skidding around the Taj Mahal but wind up causing a tidal wave that would wipe out the entire planet”.

    The smashing-monuments part sounds at least possible, but a tsunami wiping out the entire population of Earth? How did Doug think they were going to be able to do that? The production crew must have figured out how to do it to some extent considering they told him they’d come up with an accurate costing and it would cost nearly £100,000, but it still sounds like such an impossible sequence to do.

    Similarly ridiculous was Doug wanting a “life-sized Starbug that would take off” built for the Red Dwarf Movie. No wonder he never got the funding for it.

    #235316
    Dax101
    Participant

    Was it a life size starbug? or was it just the motor thing they have for movies that tips back and forth.

    #235317
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    My bad, it was actually described as “a life-sized Starbug construction that would be lowered on a massive hydraulic crane. We’d clamber down the exit ladder and look at the new world we were visiting”

    It still sounds a bit ridiculous, but at least they weren’t actually going to try to get it to take off and fly around.

    #235318

    but a tsunami wiping out the entire population of Earth?

    Easy

    #235319

    <block quote> Similarly ridiculous was Doug wanting a “life-sized Starbug that would take off” built for the Red Dwarf Movie. No wonder he never got the funding for it. </block quote>

    Is it ridiculous for a movie? Given the right budget it’d be possible. Serenity was a full size, fully built built set. It wouldn’t be completely impossible to build a Starbug like that

    #235326
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    It’s not ridiculous to have a full sized Starbug, for it to be strong enough to be moved around on a crane is a tad ridiculous though. Entirely possible with a healthy budget obviously.

    If they wanted to do it sensibly build the centre section where you exit practically, and have that on an arm, and then CG the rest in.

    A lot of the time I hear things Doug says and he expects people to go “that would have been cool, they were stupid to not give you the funds to do that” but I just think “why did you want to do that anyway?” haha

    #235339
    Dax101
    Participant

    Simple answer is Doug likes cool visuals. even with BTE Doug was very keen to grab as much film-esk stuff as he could get in there whether its HD cameras and wire work, green screen sets, a 4 wall set.

    And i still remember him telling SFX magazine in 2009 that he felt BTE was one of the best stories they have ever told.

    #235350

    And i still remember him telling SFX magazine in 2009 that he felt BTE was one of the best stories they have ever told.

    despite the episodes flaws, it might be one of the better stories RD has done IMO. It definitely could have been funnier, but it is sort of up there with Tikka in terms of scope and story telling. It’s interesting and different to the extent that it is very meta which Red Dwarf doesn’t really do.

    I kind of wish they were able to give Tikka the same treatment tbh. Whilst it’s commendable they cram soooo much into 30 mins, I imagine a little bit more of a quest in the story to correct things, and a bit more self discovery in terms of characters would have really added to Tikka if they’d had an hour or so

    #235351
    Dax101
    Participant

    >to the extent that it is very meta which Red Dwarf doesn’t really do.

    I imagine there is a good reason for that.

    #235353
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    >I imagine there is a good reason for that.

    Is showing that you shouldn’t do meta by making an episode that’s really meta, meta?

    #235356
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    BTE has quite a big scope with the storytelling and parts of the meta stuff are really quite good- the stuff in the Creator’s office and the Kochanski scenes which really analyse the core of what kind of character Lister is were excellently done, I thought. The subtle thing of the four of them having drifted apart over the years but coming back together to work as a team was quite well done too- they start off Part 1 separate from each other, all doing their own thing. They’re clearly not as chummy as they once were, with Lister getting genuinely angry at Rimmer etc. The ending of Part 3 is the four of them all together in the same shot- the journey they’ve been on has brought them back together. There’s lots of clever little bits like that, and those bits are nice

    It’s just a shame those bits are surrounded by the shitty Coronation Street scene and the godawful Carbug stuff.

    #235410
    flanl3
    Participant

    If the elation squid has been in the water tank for so long, have the crew been hallucinating since shortly after, or even during Back to Reality?

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