Only the Good… possible outcome

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  • #231318

    Timewave Part Two

    Since the users of this site are perpetually doomed to repeatedly bring up Series VIII in every discussion no matter how unrelated, I thought I could bring up this question revolving around the thing Doug Naylor fears will be asked everytime he has a fan Q&A session.

    How do you think Only the Good… bridges into Back to Earth, basically, what happened to lead us into the Dave-era in the continuity of the show.

    Personally, I like to believe nano-Rimmer is the current Rimmer in BTE-XII, so I just imagine after he kneed Grim in the testes he sodded off, obtained the luck virus from Captain Hollister’s quarters (Since the same vending machine that he meets outside Hollister’s room is the same one he is next to at the end of the episode, he should be pretty close to his room), and used it to repair the ship. But, Rimmer being Rimmer, he manages to axe himself off in a boneheaded way ala Timeslides.

    The rest of the crew (Lister, Kryten, Cat, Kochanski, Holly) all crossover from the parallel universe and thats what leads them to the depressed state of affairs in Back to Earth doing jackshit for about ten years or so and still far from Earth. But that’s just me.

    #231319

    Warbodog

    I haven’t seen the episode for about 18 years, but I watched the alternate “I see no ships” ending more recently than that, and it works fine to restore the status quo, so I go with that one.

    It’s easier to assume the hologram is nano Rimmer (preferably dead sooner rather than later) with the original’s saved memories added in to adjust his personality, so I go with that one. The other Rimmer coming back to replace this one involves working out too much lost story, plus it makes Stoke Me a Clipper more pointless if he’s not still out there.

    He’d be the same amalgamation simulation either way, since we’ve seen he’s got memories from both, so it doesn’t matter if his light bee’s had physically more wear and tear.

    #231320

    Hamish

    > Personally, I like to believe nano-Rimmer…

    You kills my brother.

    #231321

    cwickham

    Given Dave Dwarf’s affinity for the golden years, coupled with its treatment of the VIII cliffhanger, it would be odd if the Dave-era Rimmer was meant to be the Rimmer from that series. Either Doug doesn’t have a specific Rimmer in mind, or it’s meant to be the I-VII one.

    #231326

    bloodteller

    i’ve always just considered the original ending to VIII the proper one and left it at that

    #231327

    Pete Part Three

    Since any explanation requires a bit of creativity, I just retcon away the whole series and have a biscuit.

    #231329

    Flap Jack

    Red Dwarf: Series IX – Episode 1: ‘Back to Worth’
    —————————————————————————–

    Lister wakes up from his surgery at the end of ‘Nanarchy’, and walks into the cockpit.

    Lister: “Oh, man, I just had the worst nightmare. It felt like I was in it for months.”

    Kochanski: “Why, what was so bad about it?”

    Lister: “Rimmer was alive again.”

    [Audience laughs uproariously for seven uninterrupted minutes.]

    Holly: “Are you sure that was a dream? What about all those parts you weren’t present for?”

    Lister: “I don’t know, dreams are weird, aren’t they?

    Cat: “Of course it was a nightmare! The real me wouldn’t be caught dead in a lilac prison jumpsuit!”

    Kryten: “Oh my god, who the fuck cares about a stupid dream you had? At least acknowledge your restored right arm, you ungrateful cunt.”

    They then return to the rebuilt Red Dwarf. 2 weeks later Rimmer comes back too, after chickening out of his very first Ace mission. Everybody then guilts Lister for pretending that Rimmer was dead for no reason.

    #231333

    International Debris

    Karnie’s fanfic Homecoming will not be topped
    https://www.fanfiction.net/s/12067118/1/

    #231345

    Dax101

    Either Doug doesn’t have a specific Rimmer in mind, or it’s meant to be the I-VII one.

    Didn’t Doug say at DJ in 2012 that it was the Original Rimmer? i swear i remember someone saying that.

    Either way i think its likely Doug wanted it to be the original Rimmer because it kept all that History they had with the character and even if it was S8 rimmer but with old rimmers memories it takes away something when Lister keeps reminding him that he killed the crew back in series 1. especially if it wasn’t actually that Rimmer but a cloned Rimmer.

    #231349

    Timewave Part Two

    I just assume Dave-era Rimmer is more of an amalgamation of the two Rimmers but was brought about due to the death of nano-Rimmer.

    Since they could reinstall Lister with his memories of every episode from The End to Mechocracy in M-Corp, I assume it’d be easier with Rimmer and Rimmer just took it personal since nano-Rimmer was a complete recreation of the Rimmer who killed the entire crew. But idk.

    Whatever I think may or may not be completely thrown out the window if Doug ever brings back Ace in Series XIII or a stage play or a movie.

    #231350

    Ben Saunders

    Would you agree to having the memories and development of an alternate version of yourself implanted into your own personality just for the sake of fitting into the group dynamic of the last four beings you’ll ever be mates with a little better? Would Rimmer? Would VIII Rimmer? Is it ethical to create such a being, given it is sentient?

    I just pretend it’s the original Rimmer and don’t think very hard about it

    #231351

    Dax101

    I don’t know how you could bring Ace back at this point. it would probably be done Emohawk style since that would allow not having to explain things.

    But id rather Ace be left alone now personally.

    #231352

    Ben Saunders

    Did you miss Stoke Me A Clipper? Ace could come back at any time.

    Although the way the crew act in Skipper makes at seem as if they’ve completely forgotten that Ace is a thing. Their complete nonreference to Ace is even more questionable if the current Rimmer indeed is the Series 1 – VII Rimmer who went off to become Ace. Did he just forget?

    #231354

    Dax101

    >Did you miss Stoke Me A Clipper? Ace could come back at any time.

    Only if Doug is willing to explain certain things.

    #231363

    Ridley

    A while back I realised that They could have brought back Ace without undoing Stoke’s ending simply by having him coming out of the mirror and save the ship when nanoRimmer went in.

    #231369

    Flap Jack

    There’s probably an interesting philosophical discussion to be had about whether Series VIII Rimmer or Series 1-VII Rimmer is the most “real”. S8 Rimmer is an actual living human being with Rimmer’s original body and Rimmer’s mind, but is missing some key memories. Holo-Rimmer is just a computer simulation of Rimmer, but one that has equal sentience and all of his memories plus many years extra. We know which one we prefer, but is that really because he’s the most legitimate version of Rimmer?

    If a person has Alzheimer’s, is a hologram recreation of them which retains all of their memories more “the real them” than the living person?

    Are holograms even considered full persons, given that their continued existence is dependent on private corporations funding their projection in exchange for work, and they can be switched off in favour of another person without their consent?

    Somebody have this discussion. I’m too lazy.

    #231370

    Plastic Percy

    The original Rimmer returned, saved the day and sent Kill Crazy off as the new Ace Rimmer.

    #231372

    Timewave Part Two

    I think the issue of holograms is explored more in Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers but idk, I can only remember the mention of dead rights’ marches and a young Rimmer chucking rocks at them.

    “If a person has Alzheimer’s, is a hologram recreation of them which retains all of their memories more “the real them” than the living person?”

    I think with the episodes Trojan and Can of Worms you could just bring back a person with Alzheimer’s and do a sort of surgery on them that removes their illness instead of bringing them back already without it. That raises another question if say a wheelchair-bound person is brought back as a hologram, can the person now walk or does Holly need to simulate a wheelchair for them.

    #231383

    Flap Jack

    I think with the episodes Trojan and Can of Worms you could just bring back a person with Alzheimer’s and do a sort of surgery on them that removes their illness instead of bringing them back already without it.

    Sure, but I wasn’t asking about how feasible it was, but the implications of it being done while the Alzheimer’s patient the hologram is based on was still alive.

    As for the wheelchair question, it seems likely that the Holo-Person would get to choose, with the default being that they’re as they were when they did their last “backup”. After all, hard or not, it’s just a light projection. A wheelchair should be no more difficult than a different outfit or haircut.

    I’d think that mental differences between original Rimmer and Holo-Rimmer are more likely to get a “he’s not truly Rimmer” reaction than physical changes.

    Especially considering: holograms by design are meant to mimic the original person’s appearance perfectly, but they literally can’t be a perfect representation of their minds, because holograms – due to being holograms – will experience things that no living human could experience and feel things that no living human could feel. So, as they continue living they develop new memories and personalities that the people they’re based on wouldn’t.

    #231384

    bloodteller

    >That raises another question if say a wheelchair-bound person is brought back as a hologram, can the person now walk or does Holly need to simulate a wheelchair for them

    doesn’t that just raise all sorts of questions about the morality of more or less trying to “cure” someone of their disability?

    either way, the answer is seemingly no- rimmer has heart problems in Rimmerworld, so presumably whatever ailments you had as a human you would keep as a hologram.

    #231385

    Ben Saunders

    Interestingl when Rimmer had heart problems (which I interpreted as a hologrammatic illness) Holly wasn’t around to potentially fix it. If (s)he can give him a bigger haircut and a breast, maybe they can take away his heart problem. Also I don’t think it’s that unethical to imply that being able to use your limbs is better than not being able to, although mental “problems” are much more of an ethical mine field.

    #231386

    bloodteller

    >Interestingly when Rimmer had heart problems (which I interpreted as a hologrammatic illness)

    i think its implied in the episode that he had the heart problems as a human too- it ran in the family and all of his relatives had died of heart attacks and strokes and other such things.

    #231388

    Plastic Percy

    It’s also attributed to a fault with his projection unit. But it does make me wonder how much of Rimmer exists. Is he effectively a hollow shell of projected light, or does he have a holographic skeleton and organs too?

    #231389

    Katydid

    This is way more interesting than trying to pretend Series VIII has any relevance to new Dwarf whatsoever.

    #231390

    Ben Saunders

    Do holograms need to sleep in order to reacharge/cache memories like we do, or do they just do so to keep up the illusion for the still living members of the crew, or do they do it to keep the hologram itself from going insane?

    If holograms need to sleep, do they need to piss as well?

    Can they jizz?

    Could a hologram holo-jizz through someone as a prank?

    #231392

    Timewave Part Two

    While we’re discussing this, anybody remember in Officer Rimmer when Kryten is talking about the Bio-Printer he says something along the lines of,

    “like celebrities, they can not have children in the normal way”

    does that mean bio-printed crews can have children who like them combust into nothing after a mission’s been completed. I always liked Red Dwarf, I always considered it a comedy set in a really depressing setting.

    #231393

    Timewave Part Two

    ” all of his relatives had died of heart attacks and strokes and other such things.”

    Its funny actually, considering Rimmer’s “father” had four strokes later in his life, but we find out they’re not related later.

    #231394

    Ben Saunders

    Maybe it was the stress of putting up with Rimmer’s mother that killed griefed them all. Although I can’t actually remember much of her characterisation other than her Poly-self bonking Fearless Lister.

    >does that mean bio-printed crews can have children who like them combust into nothing after a mission’s been completed
    Imagine you had a relationship with a bio-printed man that lasted say a year and a half, you had a child, and then his mission, whatever it was, finished. Sort of like what happened in Doctor Who S6. Horrifying.

    #231395

    Ben Saunders

    I’m now imagining a man stalling his mission for as long as possible because he doesn’t want to break it to his wife that he and their children will combust into nothing at some point. There’s an Oscar worthy script in that, somewhere.

    #231409

    Flap Jack

    Rimmer is able to ask Holly for a holo-sandwich to eat in Thanks For The Memory, so it stands to reason Rimmer would be able to piss, shit and jizz too.

    It would be holo-jizz, though.

    My feeling is that none of those bodily functions are necessary – and Rimmer can probably opt in or out of feeling the urge to do most of them – but holograms can still do them for the sake of their mental well-being. The hologram is meant to be as perfect as possible a simulation of the human mind, so the more human things they can do, the more human they feel. Hey, if you can’t touch anything else by default, the ability to wank might be the only thing keeping you sane.

    Sleeping is probably the most important “non-essential” function a hologram could do, because even disregarding the energy-conserving aspect, sleeping and dreaming is hugely important for the human brain. That’s something I bet holograms can’t even opt out of without at least getting past an “Are you sure?” pop up. Consider that neither of the Rimmers try just not sleeping ever in IWCD (that’s more because doing so might remove the competitive masculinity aspect, but still).

    Heck, even the fact that holograms have to walk around on their legs shows this in action. They could just hover in the air and fly around the place (or just straight up teleport, before the light bee was retconned in), but they don’t, because it would feel wrong to them.

    #231410

    flanl3

    But surely if the parents had a child because they wanted to have a child then its mission would be complete upon being born, at which point it would disintegrate.

    #231415

    bloodteller

    i thought the line about bio-printed people not “being able to have children in the normal way” meant bioprinted people had no sexual organs, and couldn’t reproduce.

    #231420

    International Debris

    Is he effectively a hollow shell of projected light, or does he have a holographic skeleton and organs too?

    There must be something inside of hardlight ones, as they can eat. Although given that there’s no need to digest, the food probably comes out chewed but otherwise intact at some point.

    #231421

    Flap Jack

    Are bio-printed people considered to have the same level of sentience as holograms? Because if so, bios have it way worse than holos. At least if you’re a hologram, you’ll only be created if there’s no other versions of you around, and the threat of “you’ll be erased from existence if we no longer have any use for you” is implicit and reversible, rather than explicit and permanent.

    #231423

    Plastic Percy

    <<There must be something inside of hardlight ones, as they can eat. Although given that there’s no need to digest, the food probably comes out chewed but otherwise intact at some point.>>

    Perhaps it’s able to break down the proteins, fats and sugars in the food and convert them into energy for the light bee.

    I always figured that the program running the hologram was sophisticated enough to simulate human states of unwellbeing – stressed, tired, hungry etc. But that a command to the computer could delete it as necessary. If Rimmer had a hangover, it would be simple enough for Holly to delete it and return him to a healthier state.

    #231427

    bloodteller

    > If Rimmer had a hangover, it would be simple enough for Holly to delete it and return him to a healthier state.

    in the novels they mention if Petersen was brought back as a hologram, he’d forever have a massive hangover (he was drunk and they had to sober him up before recording his brain) so presumably hangovers as holograms are incurable?

    #231447

    Timewave Part Two

    Well this discussion went in the direction I was planning. Yep.

    #231453

    Plastic Percy

    <<in the novels they mention if Petersen was brought back as a hologram, he’d forever have a massive hangover (he was drunk and they had to sober him up before recording his brain) so presumably hangovers as holograms are incurable?>>

    I took that to mean that he’d be revived in the initial same state he was recorded in, which was hungover, but that would pass. Rimmer has a hangover in ‘The Last Day’ but isn’t hungover for the rest of the series. If the hologram program is sophisticated enough to simulate the stages of inebriation then it’s presumably sophisticated enough to simulate the recovery process. It certainly allows for the personality to learn, grow and adapt as we see with Rimmer getting over his death and to an extent his daddy issues.

    #231495

    Ridley

    >This is way more interesting than trying to pretend Series VIII has any relevance to new Dwarf whatsoever.

    VIII is in the Dave era’s DNA.

    #231497

    bloodteller

    to be fair they reference VIII in three episodes of X and that’s in the Dave era, so it is sort of relevant.

    #231504

    Katydid

    What are these “Dave episodes” you speak of?

    I went to the Complete Guide for answers and this is all I could find:

    “Will there be a Series IX? The demand is high, but while attempts to fund the film take precedence there seems to be no definitive answer. Still, there’s no shortage of enthusiasm, or demand, and it may be that Red Dwarf will soon return.

    But in what form…?”

    I wonder when the film is coming out.

    #231510

    Timewave Part Two

    I can name two episodes.

    Fathers and Suns when Lister is retrieving his spacesuit you can see a Canary outfit behind him in the closet and obviously The Beginning where the final cliffhanger is mentioned multiple times.

    #231511

    bloodteller

    yeah you’re right, it is only those two. i thought they mentioned the chameleonic microbe during the charades in Dear Dave, but i checked and it’s actually “chameleonic mutants”

    #231547

    Dax101

    I imagine Doug wants fans to forget about Series 8. not because he doesn’t like series 8 but because if he keeps reminding fans of series 8 then they will expect answers.

    Treat the show like its still 1-5 and just hope people enjoying it enough to forget the gaping hole between 8 and BTE.

    #231570

    cwickham

    Rimmer also mentions Morris Dancer Monthly in “Cured”, and the Captain Hollister of “Skipper” is clearly drawn from VIII’s portrayal rather than I or II.

    #231582

    Timewave Part Two

    I always thought Captain Hollister wasn’t that different between his VIII and his I & II appearances. He was still called fat in the first two series such as in Stasis Leak, arguably the reason he’s more hard on the VIII boys is cause they did more damage to the ship and broke more laws as opposed to Lister and Rimmer in I & II who were really just annoying and in Rimmer’s case arrogant.

    Granted we also saw very little of Hollister in the first two series, only in three episodes; The End, Me2, and Stasis Leak.

    Plus the Hollister we saw in Skipper was an alternate version so that excuse could be used for most things in that episode really but it still works. Explains why Hollister is more cowardly than his portrayal in Me2, since this is an alternate him. You could say he was kinda cowardly in Only the Good but that was more a dick-move and an expected betrayal since he evacuates the entire ship apart from the prisoners in the Tank, since they consist of mostly murderers and other psychopaths, its a good chance to get rid of them since for all Hollister knows the JMC is defunct now (Since he is aware of the crew being rebuilt by nanobots) so there’s no reason to keep harboring them. That, and he just hates the boys, though I think we only ever see him acknowledge Lister and Rimmer.

    #231601

    International Debris

    Dennis the Donut Boy is the sticking point with the VIII Hollister, isn’t it? I mean, he’s more broadly written than before, but that’s true of all the characters.

    #231602

    MANI506

    Good fact about the canary outfit in Fathers and Suns. I’ll watch that today and see if I can spot it!

    #231607

    clem

    Dennis the Donut Boy could well be an homage to “Pinback” in Dark Star, which makes me hate it ever so slightly less.

    #231618

    Pete Part Three

    Hollister is not a comedy character in The End or Me2. And even his appearance in a chicken costume in Stasis Leak is not “ha, look at that twat in a chicken costume” but “ha, Rimmer thinks he’s tripping balls”. Rimmer makes him an object of ridicule in Series 1 and 2, but we know it’s for his misguided POV and Hollister was likely a perfectly competent captain and a fair judge of character.

    Hollister is a comedy character in Red Dwarf VIII and get more to do than Holly, The Cat and Kochanski. The fat jokes, the smelly poo jokes, the jokes about his anus, the jokes about him really being an unqualified deadbeat who’s snuck into his role as captain; this is not the guy from Series 1 and 2. It’s like a realisation that Doug had that “hey, Max’s funny but we gave him a boring character back in ‘87 – let’s completely retcon that”.

    #231619

    Pete Part Three

    *Mac*, obviously.

    Poxy edit button.

    #231620

    Dax101

    In series 1 and 2 Hollister was the Captain. in Series VIII and Skipper he is a bad captain and thats what makes it funny.

    #231622

    Paul Muller

    I really like S1-2 Hollister. Mac is basically playing his character from Aliens, which I’ve always enjoyed. He’s an incredibly funny guy so I can see why the temptation was there to give him more jokes and turn Hollister into a comedy character – but I think the series suffers from it – especially as he’s the primary antagonist throughout the series. Once you’ve seen him buggered by a dinosaur, struggling to hide an erection, admitting to being Dennis the bloody doughnut boy, any looming sense of threat that he might represent evaporates completely.

    #231628

    Dave

    Once you’ve seen him buggered by a dinosaur, struggling to hide an erection

    Removing the comma from this sentence makes it even funnier.

    #231636

    Timewave Part Two

    Would it not have already been retconned in Justice that Hollister wasn’t a good judge of character since its heavily implied the leadership should’ve never gotten Rimmer of all people to try and repair a drive plate.

    #231649

    flanl3

    To be clear, the Dennis the doughnut boy line doesn’t actually mean that Captain Hollister’s real name is Dennis, right?

    #231652

    bloodteller

    no

    #231654

    Warbodog

    I used to wonder if it was an unfamiliar American pop culture reference (apparently not), like the weird “barney with Barney” in Pete that deftly blends a US-coddling reference with US-alienating cockney slang.

    #231655

    Ben Saunders

    Tbf Barney is pretty universally recognised, I knew who he was as a young child and I’m Scottish. Don’t you remember the playground rhymes about him?

    “Barney is a dinosaur from my imagination, stick a pencil up his arse and give him constipation” and I love you, you love me, let’s tie Barney to a tree with a rifle and a shotgun pointed at good head, la la la la Barney’s dead” were both recited daily at my school in about primary 4/5. We were lovely little kids.

    #231656

    Ben Saunders

    At his head*

    #231657

    Warbodog

    I was aware there was a purple educational dinosaur called Barney, but hadn’t ever seen it on when I used to watch kids’ TV (i.e. up to 1-2 years earlier). Maybe it was on a different channel or arrived late here? The reference has always stuck out because I figured the average UK adult viewer wouldn’t know who Barney was, since I barely did. I was used to Red Dwarf references being ones I’m too young to get, not somehow too old to get even at 13.

    #231658

    Warbodog

    It looks like Barney & Friends was broadcast by Channel 5? That explains why I didn’t see it then.

    #231660

    quinn_drummer

    There’s no way Barney was only on channel 5, I used to watch it as a kid before channel 5 was even a thing.

    That said, I can’t find any reference to what channel it did air on, other than when it came back in 2002 which was on channel 5.

    #231661

    Warbodog

    I was CBBC loyal, so it could have been on ITV or C4 was and I wouldn’t have seen it. Or CBBC after mid-1997. I watched Teletubbies religiously when that first came out and recognised that it was the height of the art form, so abandoned children’s TV after that.

    #231662

    quinn_drummer

    Yeah I was CBBC loyal too … although I did betray that to CITV when it came to Power Rangers. It might have been on there around then.

    #231664

    Warbodog

    I never saw Power Rangers either. I think we’ve determined the problem is me.

    #231671

    International Debris

    When I was a kid Barney was a loveable sheepdog.

    #231680

    Ian Symes

    G&T Admin

    I’d quite like to see Ricky Grover and Jake Wood punch a sheepdog.

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