Racist, sexist and homophobic

[Stilianides]

In the discussion on the OS about the most recent episode, these are the accusations that have been made about certain episodes of Dwarf. Fathers and Suns (racist), Krytie TV (sexist) and Duct Soup (homophobic). I personally would disagree with all of that but I wondered what others think?

Topic

[ChrisM]

While I think they raise good points concerning Taiwan Tony, (I think I called him Taiwan Tim in another post. Heh), I think they’re blowing things waaaaaaay out of proportion in that Fathers and Suns thread. (On the official site I mean. While the same points are raised in the review and comments on this site, it seems altogether more restrained and positive. Mostly. )

Don’t get me wrong. I think it would be a good thing if Doug Naylor took offended fans’ reaction into account and was a bit more careful in future.

I wasn’t particularly offended by TT myself, getting the ironic joke. It’s just too silly for me to take that seriously. (It certainly didn’t spoil the rest of the episode for me. (Actually I felt more bothered by Cat’s comment that Taiwan is kinda Chinese for some reason than the actual obvious caricature of the machine itself, but that’s really highlights the idiocy of the character, much as I like him). I can see why some people were offended though, but boy did they go on in that thread…

As for the other stuff in that thread, I skipped over some posts but I got the gist with Krytie TV and Duct Soup. I have to say I disagree. Red Dwarf is not sexist, racist or homophobic. Some of the characters might be though. On rare occasions.

[NoFro]

I can look upon Taiwan Tony now as simply a joke that didn’t work. It’s a shame because the fact that the joke isn’t signposted well enough puts the scene and Kerry Shale’s performance in a whole different light, hence why some people are seeing it as being offensive. I know when I saw it recorded I missed the joke so can understand this entirely but now I know it’s just a poorly executed joke about him being a stereotype I realise it’s nothing to get upset about. The only thing that annoys me about it is if a casual viewer saw it and missed the joke then they may get the wrong idea about the show.

And yes it’s ludicrous what is happening on TOS forum.

[Pete Tranter’s Sister]

If the Taiwan Tony joke had appeared in the original six series run, no-one would’ve batted an eyelid to it as it was simply one element of the vast range of joke themes and tropes that scriptwriters employed at the time.

I loved the whispers sub-plot.

[Pete Part Three]

>If the Taiwan Tony joke had appeared in the original six series run, no-one would’ve batted an eyelid to it as it was simply one element of the vast range of joke themes and tropes that scriptwriters employed at the time.

Yes, we’re all blind to the faults of the I-VI. We just hate this because it’s in post Rob Grant Dwarf. That’s the only explanation.

[genericnerdyusername]

There’s an OFFICIAL forum?!

[Pete Tranter’s Sister]

Pete, I was referring to the different political climate and tolerance of such jokes even twenty years ago.

You knew that…

[ChrisM]

Yes, we’re all blind to the faults of the I-VI. We just hate this because it’s in post Rob Grant Dwarf. That’s the only explanation.

While I largely agree with you’re point (lthough not so much the way it was expressed – no offence) I did see the odd dodgy quip in the old series which is hardly ever mentioned. Rimmer referring to Lister as a ‘rectum faced Pygmy’ for example.

We know it’s not really meant to be racist, more showcasing the unpleasantness Rimmer’s character. But I doubt very much it would go down very well if it had appeared in RDX. And it’s nastier than a food machine with a silly accent to my mind.

[genericnerdyusername]

I enjoyed the “are Chinese whiskers racist?” line. I found it amusing.

[Plastic Percy]

… his critics were less kind.

[Bezzy]

you would think everyone on the TOS were non dwarf fans, so bloody picky and sensitive! im suprised they havent gone through all the dwarfs and picked out everything to moan about!

next they will be going OMG!! Rimmer in Confidence and Paranoia called Lister a monkey!

you watch, next week will be long religion based upsets..

[Pete Tranter’s Sister]

It’s one of the reasons I don’t visit the official forum, it’s full of overly sensitive twats.

Although, that’s the reason I visit this forum.

[Phil]

Things can be racist without necessarily being offensive. Offensiveness, after all, is objective…racism really isn’t. Comedy Chinese accents are inherently racist, especially when played up for effect here, but I wasn’t offended by them. I was more offended by how awful the execution of the joke was.

>Pete, I was referring to the different political climate and tolerance of such jokes even twenty years ago.

In fairness to Pete, I didn’t realize that’s what you were referring to, and I do appreciate the clarification.

Though I can’t speak for you folks, in America I think we’re far more lenient and accepting of “racist” jokes than we were 20 years ago. I don’t mean that we’re all major racists now and are just bursting with it, but I do mean that it’s a lot more common for racism (or sexism, or homophobia) to be mined for humor than it was 20 (or 40) years ago. Due in large part to shows like The Simpsons, South Park, The Boondocks, Chappelle’s Show, etc…all of which pushed the boundaries so far that imitators are free to tread there as well. I think folks (again, can’t speak for over there…you’d know better than me…) are more willing to go along with “offensive” jokes with the expectation that they will eventually pay off as being a joke at the expense of racism, sexism, etc., rather than a joke in which something racist or sexist is said or done…and then just sits there waiting for you to laugh.

I’m sure the point of Taiwan Tony was that the racism *was* the joke. But I’m also sure that the joke landed with a pretty embarrassing thud, and the execution really didn’t make its intentions clear.

>you watch, next week will be long religion based upsets..

I honestly can’t wait.

[Slainmonkey]

Look I have even picked hole in episodes of the first 6 seasons, like Emohawk being nothing more then a cheap trade in on former glories. As for Taiwan Tony…..I get the joke, I don’t think it is racist but at the same time I do thing it was weak and really held the episode back……it’s a shame too because Fathers and Sun IMO had one of the best plots in Red Dwarf to date and had moments that felt iconic to me.

[Pete Tranter’s Sister]

For the record, you’re all smelly paki bastards and you should fuck off back to your own fucking country.

[Pecospete666]

What’s a paki? is that like a gook?

[Pete Tranter’s Sister]

And the strange thing was throughout the morning she kept referring to the Indians as niggers. “No no no” I said, “the niggers are the West Indians. These people are wogs”.

[Ian Symes]

Now now, let’s not all be cunts.

[Paul Muller]

I nominate this thread for SHUT THE FUCK UP status.

[NoFro]

I just glanced at the title of this thread and my mind automatically changed it to:

Racist, homophobic and quite frankly duller than an in-flight magazine produced by Air Belgium!

[Freebird]

To be fair I think the conversation moved on from Taiwan Tony about a few posts…to a much broader discussion about racism, so-called political correctness, basic misinterpretations, etc (weather that’s a good thing or not is down to the individual I suppose.)…until someone said they thought series 8 was sexist and it all kicked off again in a rather ‘entertaining’ manner.

But yeah, I don’t think that white honkie mother fucker, Doug, meant anything by it..

[genericnerdyusername]

>weather that’s a good thing

I agree. Weather is a good thing.

FUCK YOU, I’M FUNNY.

[Freebird]

> I agree. Weather is a good thing.

Tee hee, hoddle ha!

Actually that did almost raise a chuckle….but only almost :P

[thomasaevans]

Short and to the point – this racist crap about Taiwan Tony…. I think the majority are missing the point.

I can hear Doug explaining It In my head, and me going – ah yeah I see. Much like the vaudeville stuff from BTE.

I’m not offended. Then again… I’m not Taiwanese – but we are talking about a vending machine in a sitcom here.

[Freebird]

> Short and to the point – this racist crap about Taiwan Tony…. I think the majority are missing the point.

The general consensus seems to be simply that Doug didn’t make his intentions very clear. I’ve not seen or heard many, if any outright accuse it of being intentionally racist.

[Pete Tranter’s Sister]

I miss Tony Slattery.

[thomasaevans]

> The general consensus seems to be simply that Doug didn’t make his intentions very clear.

Precisely my point in reference to some of the humour in ‘Back To Earth’, does Doug ever :D ???

[Reece]

I miss Tony Slattery.

We all do.

[clem]

This thread’s reminded me of a bit of one of the DVD documentaries where Bobby Llew talks about the cast mucking about in rehearsals, pretending Starbug’s been hit by a ‘gay ray’ and made the crew behave in a very camp fashion. Anyone remember which DVD that’s on, or how he gets onto the subject?

[Danny Stephenson]

I think it was Series VII, they’re talking about performances, and Robert mentions that Kryten may have have a bit of ‘reflected gay ray’.

[Pete Tranter’s Sister]

Kryten was quite the camper in Series VII, although this was due to him becoming an overly hen-pecking mother to the boys as soon as Kochanski stepped onboard.

[clem]

Yeah that would make sense. Thanks guys, I’ll have a look for it when I get in.

[Slainmonkey]

Well with regards to Kryten in Series VII I always look it that Kochanski, this might have worked better had it been dialed down a notch and being far too annoying (particularly in Ouroboros and Duct Soup). In series VIII however Kryten became just a cleaning obsessed buffoon who’s whininess didn’t even make sense anymore.

[Pete Tranter’s Sister]

Kryten was a bit of a spare prick in VIII.

HO HO, DID YOU SEE WHAT i DID THERE.

[Slainmonkey]

Kryten at least had a reason to act insecure in series VII, his characterization in VIII was just flat out inexcusable…..I couldn’t even view him as being the same character. Then again they were all dumbed down in series VIII to they point that they were almost too stupid to be left walking around without wearing crash helmets and a life preserver.

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