Russell Two Davies

[Nick R]

Apparently, today there was some news about a change to Doctor Who’s production staff, in some obscure behind-the-scenes role. I don’t know if anyone else heard about it?

Topic

[Dave]

Either way, Paul McGann is great in the role and he should get to come back if he wants to and there’s a good opportunity.

This is probably the crux of it. He’s really good and people have always wanted him to have more of a shot at the role, and at a time when the show is in flux and it might be hard to get any actor to commit to being the next Doctor given the uncertainty, a throwback with an old Doctor who can still credibly play the role (and who isn’t David Tennant again) might be the best way of plugging that gap.

[Ridley]

Narratively useful that his screen time is next to zero too.

[sleepey]

Maybe he’s doing the CBeebies thing? The original post just said he’s “acting”, could be voice acting

[Renegade Rob]

Paul McGann would be a fantastic Sixteenth Doctor though. And later on, an excellent Twenty-fourth Doctor. Every eighth Doctor should be Paul McGann, really. 

[Dave]

Has anyone else been watching The War Between The Land And The Sea? It’s four episodes in now with just one to go (this Sunday).

I think RTD should be embarrassed by this series. Because it’s written by someone else and it’s head and shoulders above what he’s been doing with the main Doctor Who show for the past couple of years.

It’s still not amazing top-tier TV, but it’s telling an engaging story in an entertaining way, with good performances and makeup/effects and some interesting ideas at the heart of it.

It also manages to incorporate progressive aspects (particularly when it comes to environmental stuff) without beating you over the head with it or being overly blunt.

Even Russell Tovey is likeable in it!

I wish Doctor Who had been more like this for the past couple of years. 

[Ben Saunders]

I watched the first two episodes, and they weren’t enough to convince me to keep watching. But I might tune in if everybody says it’s amazing or something. So far it’s a lot of standing around, and someone said if they really did that to the sea then millions of people would probably die, which I believe based on almost nothing.

[Ben Saunders]

Also, everybody is unbearably smug, in a really offputting way. Kate Stewart is smug, Salt is smug, UNIT are all smug. Smug. Smug smug smug smug smug.

[Rushy]

Also, everybody is unbearably smug, in a really offputting way. Kate Stewart is smug, Salt is smug, UNIT are all smug. Smug. Smug smug smug smug smug.

New Who and post-2017 Trek in a nutshell really

[Dave]

Also, everybody is unbearably smug, in a really offputting way. Kate Stewart is smug, Salt is smug, UNIT are all smug. Smug. Smug smug smug smug smug.

I know what you mean with Kate, but I found that episodes three and four pushed back on this a bit.

[Warbodog]

New Who and post-2017 Trek in a nutshell really

And pre-2017 Trek.

[Ian Symes]

I’ve only watched the first two episodes, has Russell Tovey shagged the big fish yet?

[Dave]

I’ve only watched the first two episodes, has Russell Tovey shagged the big fish yet?

That’s no way to talk about Kate etc. 

[Nick R]

I’ve only watched the first two episodes, has Russell Tovey shagged the big fish yet?

I don’t know, but he has shagged (worked with) the Big Fi(ni)sh.

[Dave]

I’ll be delighted if this entire miniseries ends up as an origin story for Jim the Fish.

[Dave]

Unfortunately the fifth and final episode was terrible. Felt like a different show entirely and threw away all the potential of the preceding episodes. What a shame.

[Ben Saunders]

“We got owned… we got rusted” and the whole bit leading up to that had me saying “ooohhhhhhhh nnnooooooooo” out loud. I haven’t seen cringe like this in a long time.

[Ben Saunders]

Listen, I’m not saying the Sea Devils got what was coming to them, but…

Episode four was my favourite, because for a very brief moment it felt like the show wasn’t being so bloody self-important and serious.

Episode five didn’t feel much different to me in the way Dave says, although I do have to ask why Doctor Who/TWBTLATS is so bad at the “emotional ending set to pop music” thing that American shows are often so good at. It was shit in Rosa and it’s shit here.

There was a line where Barclay’s mate said “she’s sushi mate”, and I genuinely thought he meant it like she’s fit/sexy, but I think he actually meant she’s dead.

[Ben Saunders]

Kate Stewart is insane. She should be locked up. She’s a danger to herself and others.

[Technopeasant]

There was a line where Barclay’s mate said “she’s sushi mate”, and I genuinely thought he meant it like she’s fit/sexy, but I think he actually meant she’s dead.

[Ben Saunders]

This guy is awful. Generic character, generic dialogue, and I can’t tell if that’s his real accent, but it better be otherwise idk what he thinks he’s doing.

[Ridley]

Colin McFarlane has a pretty distinctive voice.

[Ben Saunders]

Well he’s at least a little less wooden there

[Dave]

Yeah, I remembered him from The Fast Show too. I’m sure he’s cropped up in other stuff, always very recognisable.

[Spaceworm Jim]

He’s in The Dark Knight, isn’t he? Drinks himself to death.

[Warbodog]

He’s in one of the better post-Quentin Jonathan Creeks too, but I did first think of the Fast Show.

[Rushy]

 And pre-2017 Trek.

I like the Abrams films. If that’s what you’re referring to?

[Warbodog]

 And pre-2017 Trek.

I like the Abrams films. If that’s what you’re referring to?

Early TNG’s enlightened arrogance was the first thing to spring to mind, because I’ve been trying to watch it again.

[Rushy]

Enlightened arrogance?

[Dave]

[Technopeasant]

I like the Abrams films. If that’s what you’re referring to?

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I also like the Kelvinverse 

Star Trek 2009 is one of my favourite films. Not just Star Trek films. All films. 

[Technopeasant]

I also like the Kelvinverse 
Star Trek 2009 is one of my favourite films. Not just Star Trek films. All films. 

Star Trek Beyond was okay I guess.

[Professor Flibble]

Well, Russell’s said “I’m not filming anything until next year”

Make of that what you will. Though it seems he’s referring to his other projects, and he’s not working on the Doctor Who 2026 Christmas special in any capacity other than writing it. There’s also the possibility he’s been told not to say anything by the BBC, and that’s why we’ve had absolute radio silence.

[Professor Flibble]

Rumour going around that they’ve already filmed the special in total secrecy. As nonsensical as it sounds, I almost want it to be true, but then that’d mean we’d get an episode that’s likely just a couple of actors in one set talking. 

And if that bloody UNIT lot are in it, I swear to god…

[Ben Saunders]

Russel said on the radio that there will be an announcement “within the next few weeks”, and I believe it’s an announcement on the next Doctor, whether or not that means “next Doctor following Billie Piper”, I don’t really know or care. He also said he’d love for it to be done all in secret and for nobody to know anything about it, but that’s beyond unrealistic in this day and age — it was unrealistic in the 80s.

[Rushy]

I also like the Kelvinverse 
Star Trek 2009 is one of my favourite films. Not just Star Trek films. All films. 

I wouldn’t go that far, but I absolutely respect the 2009 film. And J. J. Abrams in general. 

[Warbodog]

Which historic Doctor Who rumours or conspiracies did you buy into or invent in your mind?

I worked out that Heaven Sent was going to be a multi-Doctor story, but I kept it to myself so as not to spoil the surprise. I’d read that there was going to be an episode “only featuring the Doctor” or similar phrasing, which sounded cool but unlikely. There were the usual rumours of past Doctor actors appearing in the series, which I normally discounted, but I realised that “only featuring the Doctor” was cheeky code for it actually featuring several actors in that role as Capaldi conversed with aspects of his own mind or something in a few scenes.

In the end, it also featured Clara who was an aspect of his mind and there was also a mute monster and a kid at the end, so they’d just exaggerated a bit.

[Ben Saunders]

Which historic Doctor Who rumours or conspiracies did you buy into or invent in your mind?

I thought the second coming of RTD would bring about a new age of at least competence for the show and that he would be a safe pair of hands.
In seriousness, not much I don’t think. I remember the week leading up to The Tsuranga Conundrum, somebody claimed that they were going to do a subplot where the Doctor gets her period and has to deal with that. I didn’t necessarily believe it, but then the episode started and she was being weirdly pissy and combative in way she hadn’t been previously, and I thought for a moment, hey maybe that one guy was right. But it turns out she was just being a dick for no reason, then a man tells her to calm down and she does.

[Professor Flibble]

Russel said on the radio that there will be an announcement “within the next few weeks”, and I believe it’s an announcement on the next Doctor, whether or not that means “next Doctor following Billie Piper”, I don’t really know or care.

I think he tried to deflect and indicate a general press release is coming, I don’t really buy that a new Doctor could be cast when we don’t even know the shape of the show’s future.

He also said he’d love for it to be done all in secret and for nobody to know anything about it, but that’s beyond unrealistic in this day and age — it was unrealistic in the 80s.

As I said, I almost want it to be true but even if they tried, I’d rather have a Doctor Who Christmas special that actually feels like an event rather than just mopping up loose ends with constant dialogue in one room.

[Professor Flibble]

Which historic Doctor Who rumours or conspiracies did you buy into or invent in your mind?

Uh…I mean like a lot of people I thought Wild Blue Yonder was going to be this big anniversary fanwank session, but it was just David Tennant and Catherine Tate in a bunch of corridors. Not that it wasn’t a good episode of Doctor Who but I can’t deny I was disappointed by its context as a 60th anniversary special, that Matt Smith and Peter Capaldi weren’t the two hidden guest stars. And I think it was disappointing that it really was occam’s razor; nothing leaked cause there was nothing to leak. 

[Ben Saunders]

I’ve been basically out of Dr Who fandom since around 2017 and believe me, I am a lot happier because of it. I dip in every now and then, and am paying attention to it now because Twitter keeps feeding me it, but it means I’ve managed to avoid all sorts of rumours and speculation. I never heard the stuff about Wild Blue Yonder so couldn’t be disappointed by it not happening.

[Professor Flibble]

I think it wasn’t so much that the fandom were particularly spreading rumours but I personally hoped that the lack of any information and redacted names for guest stars meant there was a lot we weren’t seeing. 

Also, Tennant saying in 2022 or so, “Oh its not just me and Catherine, we were on a soundstage with lots of people. We’re just small cogs in the machine.” Yeah, that didn’t mean anything. He was clearly just talking about that bloody UNIT lot.

[Flap Jack]

I never bought into the omnirumour, but I did – and kind of still do – believe the rumour that Web of Fear Episode 3 was found along with the other episodes but was stolen before it could be recovered.

I bought into the theory that The Fugitive Doctor was between the 2nd and 3rd Doctors, and that Chibnall was effectively using her to canonise the old Season 6B theory (although I guess it would technically be Season 6C?). That theory honestly still makes way more sense than the strong implication that she was a pre-Hartnell Doctor.

For at least a brief time I thought they might reveal a level of unreality had been secretly at play in the RTD2 era, what with the overabundance of outright fantastical premises, fourth wall breaks, Ruby’s whole deal, “I made a jigsaw out of your history” and all that. Obviously those kind of theories were pure uncut wishful thinking from people who just thought that those being the surface level stories was shit, but given everything was so different from the way RTD did things before, it did seem somewhat plausible. Especially when the S15 finale was revealed to be called “Wish World / The Reality War”.

Of course, revealing that some or all of the events you’ve already seen never actually happened is almost always hack bullshit, so it’s not even bad that it turned out not to be true, but it does show how desperate folks became for coherence.

I also bought into the popular theory that because Susan appeared as a vision in The Interstellar Song Contest, that meant she would be coming back properly before the end of Series 15. What a fool I was!

[Warbodog]

I don’t know if Series-7A-is-in-reverse-from-the-grieving-Doctor’s-perspective is confirmed, heavily implied at all, or wishful thinking to enhance a lacking run, but it’ll always be in my mind when I watch those. (Including Pond Life with its lampshading of the TARDIS light bulb being faulty or something like that).

I flicked through a David Icke conspiracy ebook in 2015, back when it was still possible to laugh at that sort of thing, and it had a section calling out The Power of Three as being Satanic Illuminati subliminal messaging or whatever, I think based on its theme of the number ‘3.’ (See also: the telecoms provider, ‘3’).

[Professor Flibble]

I never bought into the omnirumour, but I did – and kind of still do – believe the rumour that Web of Fear Episode 3 was found along with the other episodes but was stolen before it could be recovered.

I was surprised when I first heard people doubting it, I still think (or at least want to think) it’s in the hands of a collector.

I bought into the theory that The Fugitive Doctor was between the 2nd and 3rd Doctors, and that Chibnall was effectively using her to canonise the old Season 6B theory (although I guess it would technically be Season 6C?). That theory honestly still makes way more sense than the strong implication that she was a pre-Hartnell Doctor. 

Oh, I had this thought at the time that Jo Martin was actually the 14th Doctor after a mindwipe. I’d still prefer if she was a future Doctor tbh.

I don’t know if Series-7A-is-in-reverse-from-the-grieving-Doctor’s-perspective is confirmed, heavily implied at all, or wishful thinking to enhance a lacking run, but it’ll always be in my mind when I watch those. (Including Pond Life with its lampshading of the TARDIS light bulb being faulty or something like that). 

Oh, that’s interesting, and I think it’d reconcile the whole “companions hopping on and off the TARDIS” thing I have an issue with in that era, if the Doctor’s already seen them “die.”

[Ben Saunders]

I bought into the theory that The Fugitive Doctor was between the 2nd and 3rd Doctors

Unfortunately this makes too much sense. He had the perfect opportunity to do this, but decided to fuck with the very foundations of the show and open up an enormous can of ridiculous worms for no fucking reason (why does she have a police box, what was the point of Hartnell’s character development, isn’t it all a MASSIVE coincidence, should you be locked up, etc).

>Of course, revealing that some or all of the events you’ve already seen never actually happened is almost always hack bullshit

Well he basically went and did this with Belinda anyway as well. It was definitely fan cope talking so I never took it very seriously. I liked the idea people had that all the nostalgiafanwank was going to be a big meta commentary on nostalgiafanwank itself, but again that’s just wishful thinking.

The Susan shit he tried to pull is so crazy because it might actually have been worse than what we eventually got. More pointless fucking with the lore and bringing up stupid questions about canon and invalidating the original character development and forever tainting the classic stories with “oh yeah she’s the wish baby’s mother”, fucking hell. It felt like RTD trying to do Moffat extremely poorly with the whole “oh I’m not a grandfather yet” shit. Shut up!

[Rushy]

I’ve gotten into the habit of treating virtually any idea introduced after series 5 as pseudo-canon at best. It’s less of a headache. 

Edit: I think the better way of handling Gallifrey would have been to have the Time Lords evacuate from it right than just die. 

They all go to different times and places, and start unique colonies. That way they’re no longer this overarching power over the Doctor, but you can still do stories with them. 

[Flap Jack]

Unfortunately this makes too much sense. He had the perfect opportunity
to do this, but decided to fuck with the very foundations of the show
and open up an enormous can of ridiculous worms for no fucking reason
(why does she have a police box, what was the point of Hartnell’s
character development, isn’t it all a MASSIVE coincidence, should you be
locked up, etc).

Honestly, while I oppose the Timeless Child twist on basic principle (The Doctor should not be inherently special among their own kind), I think it could have otherwise worked if they made it clear that whoever they were before was NOT The Doctor. They didn’t call themselves “Doctor”, they didn’t have a police box shaped TARDIS, they didn’t dress in quirky outfits, and most importantly they were not a hero. All those aspects of the character were forged in their new life as Hartnell and beyond, but the proto-Doctor was a ritually tortured and exploited alien refugee who was pushed into doing unspeakable things as a Division agent. Learning this is a fine motivation for an existential crisis on Thirteen’s part, but the self-doubt is kind of undermined if she’s already met her old self and found she was fundamentally the same sort of person as she is now. (Except now she tells people to shut up less.)

But I guess revealing that this other Time Lord is actually The Doctor in a previous life without using the name “Doctor” or a police box TARDIS as clues would have just been too hard.

Well he basically went and did this with Belinda anyway as well.

Kind of, yes, though the way I remember it is that reality was actively changed to make single mother Belinda a thing, not that it was this way all along but the true nature of things was being obscured.

In any case it’s a very different vibe because it’s replacing one normal situation with a different normal situation, not explaining away anything supernatural.

[Ben Saunders]

but the self-doubt is kind of undermined if she’s already met her old self and found she was fundamentally the same sort of person as she is now

It was a bold move to have the Fugitive Doctor tell Thirteen (and hence the audience) “oh shut up, none of this matters anyway so it’s all a bit pointless really”. Why do it then?

though the way I remember it is that reality was actively changed to make single mother Belinda a thing, not that it was this way all along but the true nature of things was being obscured

It came off as the latter to me, but I could be mistaken. It’s the same thing to me really, I think. Either way, the Belinda we all knew and… loved? Did anyone love her? Is dead and gone, and either doesn’t exist or never existed, which is the same result ultimately. I really haven’t thought or talked about The Reality War at much length because I want to just distance myself from it. I’m sure if I thought about it more certain aspects would make more sense and certain things would make me more annoyed.

[Ian Symes]

I think I’d feel more strongly about the revelations of the Timeless Child if I wasn’t bored shitless by the episode itself. The Doctor is just sat in a chair having everything explained to her. It’s not a drama, it’s a Wikipedia entry.

[Author]

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