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  • #291079
    Formica
    Participant

    And tonight, though the elder doesnt like the younger…”Can he sleep in my bed; because I’m going to have nightmares?”

    I was at a young enough age when I first watched some Doctor Who that I couldn’t sleep a wink once when staying at my aunt’s house because of a blue glow coming from around the corner (thanks to the Slitheen episodes)

    #291080
    Warbodog
    Participant

    I was at a young enough age when I first watched some Doctor Who that I couldn’t sleep a wink once when staying at my aunt’s house because of a blue glow coming from around the corner (thanks to the Slitheen episodes)

    The house from Ghost Light was a recurring setting across my childhood nightmares. I would have been 4 when I saw it, it took a rewatch about 20 years later to realise the source.

    #291081
    Dave
    Participant

    I was of just the right age to be properly shit up by the Kandyman. Yes, really.

    #291083
    Ridley
    Participant

    28 years old.

    #291084
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Morris “Dave” Mitchener.

    #291085
    Dave
    Participant

    28 years old.

    And then I got off the bus.

    #291086

    It honestly felt more Vic and Bob to me.

    Was quite surprised when the Doctor and Donna defeated them by tricking them into sitting in an obvious comedy prop chair and making them look stupid.

    #291088

    As a somewhat seasoned Who aficionado, I got some distinct Bob Shearman vibes from this story. The setting alone – a seemingly abandoned spaceship on the edge of reality, where the normal laws of physics don’t seem to apply – is very him, and in fact the main thrust of the story and how they use actors and characters very much reminded me of Scherzo.

    #291090
    Nick R
    Participant

    Lawrence Miles tweeted:

    It’s as if three “Red Dwarf” episodes have stood on each others’ shoulders and turned up in a trenchcoat.

    To which I thought: “That’s a pithy one-liner, but it doesn’t really make sense! OK, there are some superficial similarities like identifying the imposter in Psirens and the face deformation effects in Officer Rimmer, but everything substantial about the episode was completely different from anything RD has ever done.”

    But then I saw this…

    https://twitter.com/ganymedetitan/status/1731080147632013772

    … and now I have to concede that the similarities are undeniable.

    #291092
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Screenshot from the Red Dwarf episode Balance of PowerScreenshot from the Red Dwarf episode Balance of Power

    #291098
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    But then I saw this…

    … and now I have to concede that the similarities are undeniable.

    Although for the record, I, the author of said tweet, thought that this was a fucking excellent episode. Loved Star Beast, loved this one even more.

    #291099
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Yeah, I hope not too many people interpreted that tweet as saying “Doctor Who blatantly ripped off the idea of John Carpenter’s The Thing from a 2016 Red Dwarf episode”.

    #291102
    Ridley
    Participant

    I was thing-king of the Polymorph standoff myself while watching but had considered the episode more Davies trying his hand at a Moffat episode.

    Funny Chibnall saying he didn’t reckon RTD would reference his run but the man’s basically said “Well, you’re the Time War now.”

    #291107
    Dave
    Participant

    #291116
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    #291188
    Warbodog
    Participant

    I’ve caught up on these. Very late 2000s vibes, with the cheesy one you put up with while waiting for a really good one, and that didn’t take long. Great chemistry, great technobabble, great looming ominous cosmic horror tease, the 70s logo looks great. I hope RTD’s got plenty of exciting ideas and will go light on the tedious villain roster.

    TARDIS scooter!

    #291213
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    What I think Wild Blue Yonder was going for was to be a mashup of previous RTD stories-of-the-week, just like Star Beast was sort of a back-to-basics reprise of prior RTD-style modern day season premieres with presumably “The Giggle” functioning like an archetypal season finale, so what I like about “Wild Blue Yonder” is that is has that Dark Knight “middle act” energy of being allowed to just “be” and not introduce or conclude anything. 

    But in being the archetypal episode-of-the-week, it hones in on possibly my favorite ever Who subgenre, namely the dark futuristic RTD stories, so it’s more specifically trying to be a mashup of Midnight and Waters of Mars with some Utopia and Satan Pit thrown in for good measure, and on that front I believe it largely succeeds. It even checks the box of the sillier historical episodes-of-the-week with that Newton prologue to really hit all the points on episode-of-the-week bingo. 

    All the Thing and Can of Worms and Polymorph comparisons are apt, but I’m really wondering if RTD’s pitch was (in my head I’m imagining it’s to the exact same Disney corporate board that greeenlit Rise of Skywalker), “You guys just want me to do Series 4 again, right? Well, um… Two of the best hits from that era were Midnight and Waters of Mars, so how about I just mix those two together and call it a day.” Not to diminish the more unique things Wild Blue Yonder was doing, but it does feel like that was the starting point. (What was the deal with the TARDIS playing that song, by the way? Was that ever explained, or just sort of a thematic thing that wasn’t necessarily plot-relevant? The title also works as just like a placeholder title for collectively any episode of the week, which I imagine is the point). 

    The enemies also evoked the Midnight entity to the point where I was surprised they didn’t explicitly reference Midnight (laudable restraint!), but for a while watching it the first time I actually was wondering if they weren’t about to pull a Can of Worms and go, surprise, this is actually a sequel story, and then state outright that the No-Things were the exact same species as the Midnight entity but were just better at copying. 

    #291215
    Warbodog
    Participant

    It even checks the box of the sillier historical episodes-of-the-week with that Newton prologue to really hit all the points on episode-of-the-week bingo. 

    I forgot that part, but even being a (largely) two-hander made it feel distinctly isolated and creepy (though obviously plagiarising Red Dwarf’s ‘Marooned’).

    #291220
    Unrumble
    Participant

    #291222
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    Golly, RTD does love some transparent window doors. That’s two spaceships in as many episodes that have had a spontaneous recreate-the-climax-of-The-End-of-Time setting, with transparent lockdown doors coming out of nowhere for dramatic effect to separate the characters. 

    #291223
    Dave
    Participant

    Proving than unlike the world of Red Dwarf, you can have French Windows on a spaceship. 

    #291224
    Warbodog
    Participant

    #291231
    Dave
    Participant

    I thought that was tons of fun. A nice ending for Tennant and you can already tell Gatwa is going to be great.

    #291232

    I guess Russell got to have his cake and eat it there, but in a funny way, it did seem fitting. I mean, you remember the first time around, he said “I don’t want to go”, because he wasn’t ready. I guess this wasn’t really what I had in mind for closure, but I’ll give them credit where it’s due for being inventive and original, and for potentially giving them a safety net if things don’t work out in future – which of course I’m sure they will. I suppose my only complaint would be that introducing Gatwa this way means that we don’t really get a chance to get to know his Doctor and the event kind of overshadows him a bit, but I guess we’ll have plenty of time for that in the Christmas Special.

    #291233
    Dave
    Participant

    Yeah, the Christmas special is his true debut I think. This is just a regeneration episode with a bit more of the new Doctor than most.

    #291234
    Ridley
    Participant

    The Toymaker Experience

    #291237
    Warbodog
    Participant

    I was really enjoying it until that happened. Last time around, some people thought Russell undermined Matt Smith with his parting words, and then there’s this. It’s a very good thing that it’s not long until the new guy gets to prove his legitimacy, now that’s (insanely and unnecessarily) required.

    I appreciated him drawing from more obscure canon than the Big 3 Baddies too, but now that’s been set up bloody again!

    #291239
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Well you can count me on the overall positive side. The Toymaker was a lot of fun as a villain, I loved Donna kicking the crap out of those dummies, and the mid-story regeneration has long been something I’ve wanted to see, which the bi-generation kind of sort of gave us? I’ve seen a fair bit of the “that hugely undermined Gatwa’s introduction” reaction around, but in a conventional regeneration episode, he would have just got like 1 or 2 lines in the last 30 seconds, so I think it balances out?

    The concept does feel weird though. Not from a “regeneration doesn’t work that way” standpoint, but just because having a second Doctor (not to be confused with the Second Doctor) and a second TARDIS just… around is going to be something people are going to keep remembering. Whenever there’s an modern day Earth invasion-type story now, we’ll have to assume that the other Doctor is just chillaxing in Chiswick, refusing to give a shit. Or he’s just conveniently off-world every time, like Superman in the Supergirl TV show.

    Also, apparently on the video commentary RTD suggested that the bi-generation retroactively applied to all previous regenerations, and that there are alternate versions of 13 or more previous Doctors out there, which is just fucking insane. Calm down with the new regeneration lore, Russell.

    Unfortunately despite how enjoyable the episode was, it did feel really rushed and messy in a lot of ways:

    – 2 days and they already have a technology developed to suppress the madness, even with alien help, and have gone as far as distributing it? How did they even convince the first people to wear it?

    – The inclusion of the puppets as an actual plot point didn’t feel well justified. The Toymaker essentially has infinite magic powers, so why does he need to use screens? He already needs to use magic to make the puppet appear on all these completely unconnected screens anyway. So the whole music/screens/giggle element just felt like it was wasting time, or it was just there to give Donna an aspect of the story to puzzle out. (Also, the commentary of “people looking at screens makes them think they’re right all the time” was groan-worthy. He even threw a “cancel” in there.)

    – I was a bit confused by this, but the Korean satelite thing was just a coincidence, right? Or the Toymaker deliberately timed things to use it as a red herring? If so it was just an excuse to get the Toymaker access to a big laser beam, but like I said, he has infinite magic, so what was the point?

    – I did not understand at all why invoking a superstition at the edge of the universe let the Toymaker into it. Given RTD apparently loves to reference the Flux, he could have just said that the universe being part destroyed also broke down the wall with the Toymaker’s reality.

    – Mel felt really out of place in this episode. Outside of the expository dialogue explaining how she even got there, her role could have been filled by anyone pretty much. And they didn’t even need her to demonstrate that previous TARDIS travellers are immune to the madness, or to have someone be with the Doctor when he regenerates. I hope it’s true that she’ll be in Series 14 too, because otherwise what a colossal waste.

    – Scratching my head a little at the idea that Fourteen needs to settle down “because he never stopped”. I’ve always assumed The Doctor was chilling out in between adventures, and there were specific times as well, like Twelve spending decades settled down with River Song. I’ll buy that him taking fatal damage but technically failing to regenerate necessitated some R&R, but it was very strangely rationalised. RTD was genuinely like:

    – Given the Toymaker’s fixation on games, it was a bit disappointing that the 2 games played were so simple, and that The Doctor didn’t have any plan to outsmart him. I did appreciate the idea of making the first game purely chance based, knowing that the Toymaker wouldn’t cheat and also couldn’t use his limitless skill with games to get any kind of advantage – and that The Doctor had “best of three” to fall back on – but the backup plan was just “be better than this pan-dimensional entity at catching a ball”? What?

    – I’ve never seen catch played as anything other than casually before. If the rule is “if you fail to catch, you lose” how do you police the throws, so that the thrower doesn’t just deliberately throw the ball just too far away to catch? Plus, given the Toymaker has full control of what his physical presence is like, he could transform himself into a 50 foot man with 100 elastic arms, and it wouldn’t technically be cheating. That’s just a natural advantage he has. It is baffling they would risk making it a physical game, or a game where The Doctor has to rely on simply being better at a game than the Toymaker. I know it was 2 vs 1 too, but that didn’t seem to help much in this case?

    Screenshot from the Red Dwarf episode QueegScreenshot from the Red Dwarf episode QueegScreenshot from the Red Dwarf episode QueegScreenshot from the Red Dwarf episode QueegScreenshot from the Red Dwarf episode QueegScreenshot from the Red Dwarf episode QueegScreenshot from the Red Dwarf episode QueegScreenshot from the Red Dwarf episode QueegScreenshot from the Red Dwarf episode QueegScreenshot from the Red Dwarf episode QueegScreenshot from the Red Dwarf episode Queeg

    #291240
    Warbodog
    Participant

    It seems there was a line/s I didn’t hear properly (due to watching quietly at 5am without subtitles, or just being too old to understand Doctor Who now) where the Next Doctor suggested he’s already been through the Previous Doctor’s rehab and is from his relative future(?) Which suggests they must eventually merge again, like Station in Bill & Ted? Either way, multiple choice current Doctors in case you don’t like the new one seems so bollocks.

    #291241
    Ridley
    Participant

    Either way, multiple choice current Doctors in case you don’t like the new one seems so bollocks.

    I’ve seen this a couple of times. Why do some think it’s an heir and a spare thing rather than subverting the expectation that Tennant would poof away again (as opposed to not poofing away again)?

    There’s no evidence that RTD thinks it or has any interest in appeasing those that would want it. He does the opposite while actively laughing in their face if anything.

    #291242
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    It seems there was a line/s I didn’t hear properly (due to watching
    quietly at 5am without subtitles, or just being too old to understand
    Doctor Who now) where the Next Doctor suggested he’s already been
    through the Previous Doctor’s rehab and is from his relative future(?)
    Which suggests they must eventually merge again, like Station in Bill & Ted?

    Ah yes, there were a couple of lines suggesting this. The “I’ve already been through the rehab” one, and the “you’re older than him, because he came before you” one. On first viewing I thought the former line was just describing the regeneration itself as the rehab, and the latter line was just some waffle to justify Gatwa as the primary Doctor, but now you say it, this does line up with the idea that Fourteen will just disappear and become Fifteen in the past when he eventually regenerates properly, rather than becoming a parallel series of new Doctors.

    That does feel a bit more of a restrained choice, but it has its own weirdness to it. For one, it means Fifteen knew exactly how the encounter with the Toymaker was going to play out as he was participating in it, which is arguably cheating at the game (and also why he didn’t call out the suggestion of catch as a stupid idea, maybe). For two, it means that Fourteen’s TARDIS will eventually be abandoned (unless it merges back?). For three, Fourteen now has a Stavromula Beta thing going on, where it’s chronologically impossible for him to die.

    Either way, multiple choice current Doctors in case you don’t like the new one seems so bollocks.

    I’m with Ridley on this one. It’s not multiple choice if only one of the Doctors is going to be starring in the TV series, and the other Doctor isn’t even doing any adventuring.

    It’s definitely the weirdest regeneration yet and it did drastically change the tone of the transition between the 2 actors, but I’m broadly cool with it because it was like a throwback to the classic series, where pretty much all the regenerations were unique in some way:

    2->3 : Forced by the Time Lords, and they were able to choose his appearance.

    3->4 : Had to have his buddy kickstart the process.

    4->5 : Had to have this creepy guy called The Watcher merge into him first, like the exact opposite of The Giggle.

    5->6 : Was only able to happen due to a ghost battle between his companions and The Master going in his favour.

    6->7 : He got Sylvester McCoy’s face, height and build ahead of time for some reason.

    #291243
    Warbodog
    Participant

    it means Fifteen knew exactly how the encounter with the Toymaker was going to play out as he was participating in it, which is arguably cheating at the game (and also why he didn’t call out the suggestion of catch as a stupid idea, maybe).

    Blinovitch Limitation Effect sorts that, his memories would blank out while the future him was present.

    Fourteen will just disappear and become Fifteen in the past when he eventually regenerates properly.

    This is the most satisfying way for me to conceive it. I’m less annoyed about things than I was earlier and can go about my day now.
    #291245
    Unrumble
    Participant

    5->6 : Was only able to happen due to a ghost battle between his companions and The Master going in his favour. 

    Oh, I’ve never seen this idea before. I’ve always just assumed it was him hallucinating good (companions) and bad (The Master) from his life as he struggled to regenerate. 

    #291246

    Oh, I’ve never seen this idea before. I’ve always just assumed it was him hallucinating good (companions) and bad (The Master) from his life as he struggled to regenerate. 

    On the surface it might look like that, but I think the idea is that it represents a deeper internal struggle that contributes to his successor’s instability. Yes, it’s not a genuine physical fight, but nevertheless I’m firmly convinced that the intended reading is that it really is life or death, and if he’d given in to the voice of the hallucinatory Master, he wouldn’t have regenerated, I really think he’d just straight up have died and Peri’d be stuck in the TARDIS on Androzani Minor.

    #291247
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Fourteen will just disappear and become Fifteen in the past when he eventually regenerates properly.

    Bi-nowpaylatergeneration.

    But yeah, that’d be a nice way to tie it all up.

    He lives, gets old with Donna and Family and when he’s had about 40, 50 years of the healing Ncuti mentioned, he gets all glowy.

    I thought it was great overall. Ncuti is going to be fantastic, such fun.

    As for RTD saying every regeneration makes a new Doctor, now, I’m not a whovian, so there may be an in universe explanation already but couldn’t that explain how in the multi Doctor stories every Doctor has aged considerably from the point they regenerated? Split off and run parallel with Doctor Prime, just without regeneration, when they go they just reunite with Doctor Prime at the point of regeneration, because time doesn’t matter and its scifi.

    #291248
    Ridley
    Participant

    That’s basically what he suggests: https://twitter.com/dalekium/status/1733882461153550604

    It is just a suggestion though. Doesn’t sound like he’s made any move to canonise it when he’s sticking around for a while..

    Big Finish thrilled to have a shot at a 10/14/Meta-Crisis Tennant box set, no doubt.

    #291249
    Dave
    Participant

    Big Finish thrilled to have a shot at a 10/14/Meta-Crisis Tennant box set, no doubt.

    They can call it Tennant’s Super.

    #291251
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    On the surface it might look like that, but I think the idea is that it represents a deeper internal struggle that contributes to his successor’s instability. Yes, it’s not a genuine physical fight, but nevertheless I’m firmly convinced that the intended reading is that it really is life or death, and if he’d given in to the voice of the hallucinatory Master, he wouldn’t have regenerated, I really think he’d just straight up have died and Peri’d be stuck in the TARDIS on Androzani Minor.

    I agree for sure, I was just being facetious by describing it as a ghost fight. But regardless it’s a unique feature of that regeneration.

    #291252
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    I actually like that, but only in the context of the Toymaker affected universe.

    A universe altering shitshow occurring at the time, then go for it. A special treat.

    #291253
    Renegade Rob
    Participant
    Sounds like Disney Plus now gets to make multiple new kids series sub-franchises for every single one of the Tecteun experimentation Timeless Child regenerations, who now all have their own splinter universes thanks to the bi-generation rippling back through the Doctor’s timeline. 

    Also, yeah, I get the distinct impression that when it’s 14’s time to go, he’ll somehow disappear back into the UNIT rooftop bi-generation, since 15 explicitly states that he’s the result of 14 fixing himself and that they’re “doing rehab out of order.” So it’s still a single lineage even if in this case the line does a loop-de-loop over itself. 

    Bi-generation could be awesome in the future if handled well. I have a bigger problem with 15 making his roundel LED’s yellow. Bleck. The jukebox is dope as hell though. 

    But man, just imagine every Doctor renegeration getting its own sub-franchise. Not just the numbered ones, but the one that regenerates in Journeys’ End and the forced regeneration Master-Doctor from POTD, with those episodes playing out differently in new continuities. And every regeneration in Curse of Fatal Death for good measure. Jim Broadbent has earned it!

    (Crap, I’ve lost the 1.5 spacing when editing a typo and now it’s all smushed together. Apologies.)
    #291254
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Seen a few people on twitter not getting Ncuti not wearing any trousers which is making me think they should have either put Tennant in a Rab C. Nesbitt string vest to make it clearer that they got half of an outfit each.

    #291255
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    They should have had David completely topless and Ncuti completely bottomless, just to make it extra clear.

    It is funny that for 14 to 15 they were very particular about the outfit continuity making sense, but for 13 to 14 they were like “fuck it, the regeneration turns Jodie’s outfit into a suit by magic”.

    #291256
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    For some reason I forgot to type “or topless with just the waistcoat” but yeah.

    #291257
    Unrumble
    Participant

     I was just being facetious by describing it as a ghost fight

    #291262
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    #291264
    Formica
    Participant

    This episode is the closest the show’s gotten in a while to resembling JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure. (This is a good thing.)

    #291266

     (This is a good thing.)

    #291573
    Ridley
    Participant

    Probably just Tauincidence.

    #291580
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Xmas special was brilliant. I love Gatwa and Gibson right out of the gate, and my mouth was left agape by the outrageous song and dance number. Something like that could so easily fall into cringe territory (see The Greatest Show In The Galaxy, which I like) but there is nowhere I can imagine it working better than in an RTD Xmas special.

    #291581
    Formica
    Participant

    Nearly missed my flight home to get my mom to watch this with me after we’d talked about her watching a lot of 4 reruns back in her day. King Goblin had her shouting at the TV for the Doctor to swing in and save the day.

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