SFX Stinker!

[si]

Got my new SFX today, found the review for the BtE DVD, and I’m not overly impressed – 2.5/5 for the story, 2/5 for the extras, plus some major slagging off of Doug Naylor’s direction.
But even worse, flicking through the letters page, there are two letters from ‘fans’, absolutely slating it. Were they watching the same show as me?

I write to you in mourning following the death of a previously much-loved friend.
Having currently endured two of the three […] eps […] I’m left bewildered and distinctly underwhelmed.
I’m not sure I can even bring myself to watch the third instalment, so bad were the previous two. – Simon Fowles

and

When I tuned in […] they seemed to be showing old episodes of Hyperdrive.
That would be the only explanation for the unfunny, flabbily written and charmless rubbish that I saw.
Oh, and Craig Charles taking the mick out of his drug habit. Woo hoo. -Keith Sullivan

Oh, fuck off.

Topic

[JamesTC]

Not all of ‘Back to Earth’ or ‘Blue Harvest’ were Blade Runner or Star Wars jokes though. I mean just look at the couch gag in ‘Blue Harvest’, one of the best gags in the special and it is a joke anybody can get. Hell even the “Don’t get penisy” can give a luagh even if you don’t know it is mocking “Don’t get cocky”.
I had never watched Blade Runner when I watched ‘Back to Earth; but it didn’t stop me enjoying it, now after watching Blade Runner I may understand more of the jokes but not alot of them, some of them work on more than one level such as the giant headed Rimmer things in Part 3, I laughed at those when they came on screen without knowing it was a Blade Runner refrence. Hell even the scene of the gang running through the glass worked well without watching Blade Runner because it is clearly explained that it is a refrence to Blade Runner in the show.

[Dave]

>the giant headed Rimmer things in Part 3, I laughed at those when they came on screen without knowing it was a Blade Runner refrence

But did you think it was a reference to Blue? Be honest. I’m not saying it can’t be both.

[JamesTC]

The munchkin Rimmer came to mind but I didn’t think it was a refrence to that.

[Mr Flibble]

Doug’s direction wasn’t exactly worthy of a BAFTA. With that lot you can put them in a room with a script and pretty much get BtE – they know the characters that well.

For example – that crane shot in Coronation Street – completely out of character for the show.

[Carlito]

Being on frickin’ Coronation Street was already completely out of character for the show. Really don’t think a crane shot made a difference.

[Mr Flibble]

It can still affect it. It’s still a jarring moment – as is the sped up Carbug montage, incidentally – that makes it not seem like Dwarf.

Wherever they are, it should still feel like Red Dwarf, even if it’s breaking the fourth wall or meta referencing.

[Ian Symes]

But the crane shot on Corrie is brilliant! You do know it’s copied from the opening titles, right? Doug’s direction isn’t spectacular, but there’s some great touches. Kochanski walking into focus when she first appears is lovely.

[Andrew]

Crane shot. Gunmen.

That is all.

[Andrew]

Oh, except: sped-up shots Justice and Parallel Universe suggest ‘speeding it up for the comic value’ is part of the show’s style, too.

[Seb Patrick]

I think it?s just a case of Doug (and/or GNP in general) believing that Blade Runner is a lot more well-known than it actually is by the general TV viewer in 2009.

There’s a shop down the road having a sale on shovels, if you’d like to dig your head out of that sand.

[JamesTC]

Isn’t ‘Back to Earth’ Doug’s first shot at being a solo director? I think he did pretty fucking well considering.

[si]

RE – speeding up shots for comic value. Final shot of ‘Legion’.

[pfm]

> incidentally – that makes it not seem like Dwarf.

Dwarf is full of stuff that ‘makes it not seem like Dwarf.’ It’s called ‘progression.’

[Ben Paddon]

“This isn’t Red Dwarf at all! Look at them! They’re leaving the ship! Wow, first episode of the second series and already they’ve jumped the shark.”

[Carlito]

For the record, I thought Doug’s direction was absolutely fine. No issues with any of it.

[Carlito]

> There?s a shop down the road having a sale on shovels, if you?d like to dig your head out of that sand.

Oh, I’m sorry buddy. Because you’re familiar with it, everybody must be?

Of the people I’ve spoken to about the new Red Dwarf episodes (and I must have conversed about it, either in depth or in passing, to maybe 10 – 15 people) only ONE of them had seen Blade Runner. That’s people of varying ages, varying tastes, varying personalities… a random cross-section of my friends, and honestly only ONE of them had seen the movie. Most of them have seen the Star Wars movies (because most of them rib me for not having seen them).

If you’re talking people of a certain age, or big science fiction fans, then I’m sure the percentage who have seen Blade Runner will be higher. Won’t dispute that. But since when has Red Dwarf catered to a sci-fi audience only? I’ve never been a massive sci-fi fan, yet I love the show. I’d wager a large number of Red Dwarf fans love Red Dwarf for the comedy first, and the sci-fi second. Blade Runner knowledge may be rife in the sci-fi fan community… doesn’t mean it’s rife in the Red Dwarf fan community because Dwarf appeals on a much broader basis than simply science fiction alone.

[Seb Patrick]

But you’re honestly underestimating the impact and significance of Blade Runner. And you’re mistaking “my friends” for “people in general”. Maybe your friends just don’t know that much about film. Blade Runner is not just a famous piece of sci-fi cinema. It’s a famous piece of cinema full stop. It’s a milestone in the neo noir movement, it’s a genre-transcending masterpiece that even people who aren’t interested in sci-fi know about and respect. I mean, okay, it’s not as well-known to the general public as Star Wars is, but you know what? Neither is Red Dwarf. Red Dwarf, for all the mainstream appeal that it’s held, is predominantly aimed at nerds. Nerds, whether sci-fi nerds or simply film/TV nerds, should know about Blade Runner.

Either way, though, I think the general public do know Blade Runner to a greater extent than you’re giving them credit for.

[Dave]

>Either way, though, I think the general public do know Blade Runner to a greater extent than you?re giving them credit for.

My mum thought it was something to do with the Winter Olympics.

[John Hoare]

Red Dwarf, for all the mainstream appeal that it?s held, is predominantly aimed at nerds.

I very much disagree with this. I think Dwarf has always been made for a mainstream audience. Nerds took it to heart, sure, but I don’t think they’re the primary audience.

Nerds, whether sci-fi nerds or simply film/TV nerds, should know about Blade Runner.

I think this is skating on thin ice. You start getting into very dangerous territory when you say people “should” know about films, or TV programmes. Some things will inevitably pass people by, for whatever reason. I wouldn’t start arguing that if people haven’t seen Fawlty Towers, Python, and Father Ted, that they SHOULD have seen them – they may well have seen – or, hey, DONE – loads of great stuff that I haven’t. (Not to say that I wouldn’t recommend they go and watch them at some point, of course…)

For what it’s worth, I really do want to see Blade Runner properly, and I suspect I’d really enjoy it.

Either way, though, I think the general public do know Blade Runner to a greater extent than you?re giving them credit for.

I suspect you’re probably right here, although I have to be honest and say I don’t know for sure!

I think I would have enjoyed BtE more if it hadn’t been stuffed full of Blade Runner stuff… although I don’t know that for sure, either, and I certainly don’t think it was the biggest problem I had with the episodes. It’s worth pointing out that I fucking love Spaced, and 95% of the film references go over my head – but it doesn’t matter.

[Pete Part Three]

>Nerds, whether sci-fi nerds or simply film/TV nerds, should know about Blade Runner.

Irrespective of whether they know about it, should Red Dwarf be playing homage to it to such an extent that entire scenes make little sense within the context of the story?

Incidentally, I’ve seen Blade Runner a couple of times but I didn’t remember it well enough to get a couple of the references. BtE falters when it chooses needless nods over funny spoofs.

The zoom-picture sequence is over-long, but it’s clever, relatively amusing and a nice piss-take of the scene in Blade Runner. You don’t need to see Blade Runner to understand the joke and it makes sense within the story.

The Nose World scene however, makes no sense within the context of the story, is not remotely amusing and alienates anyone who hasn’t seen (or clearly remembers) Blade Runner.

And I thought they were Rimmer “munchkins” as I don’t recall the Blade Runner counterparts. Since I found out, does it make their appearance funny or welcome? No, it’s actually more irritating.

As has been mentioned, if the Blade Runner stuff had been set-up, the stuff in Part 2 and 3 would have made a bit more sense. Much like Bedford Falls in the novels.

[John Hoare]

The zoom-picture sequence is over-long, but it?s clever, relatively amusing and a nice piss-take of the scene in Blade Runner. You don?t need to see Blade Runner to understand the joke and it makes sense within the story.

The Nose World scene however, makes no sense within the context of the story, is not remotely amusing and alienates anyone who hasn?t seen (or clearly remembers) Blade Runner.

This this this this this this this.

Although I wouldn’t even say the zoom picture sequence was overlong – it’s one of the few bits which REALLY worked for me, and I had no idea about the original whatsoever.

[Seb Patrick]

As has been mentioned, if the Blade Runner stuff had been set-up, the stuff in Part 2 and 3 would have made a bit more sense. Much like Bedford Falls in the novels.

… but are the novels ruined if you haven’t seen It’s A Wonderful Life?

[Seb Patrick]

Oh, by the way, just so you know, I’m aware that I’m being a massive film nerd snob here.

But I also think you don’t necessarily have to have sat down and watched something to be aware of its cultural relevance and significance. Hence my comment about heads in the sand.

[Pete Part Three]

>? but are the novels ruined if you haven?t seen It?s A Wonderful Life?

Not at all. The novel sets up that It’s A Wonderful Life is Lister’s favourite film quite early on. And the nods are actually pretty minor. The occasional character name is slipped in but it doesn’t lift scenes and sequences from the film. The only thing the book actually uses is the location of Bedford Falls. And this makes sense within the context of the story. The location of Lister’s favourite movie is also the location of his ultimate fantasy. In fact, I may be wrong, but I don’t think IAWL is even mentioned by name in BTL, so minor are the direct references beyond Bedford Falls.

I read Infinty and BTL a few years before seeing IAWL, and while I now appreciate the fact that Dave Lister has just as much trouble leaving Bedford Falls as George Bailey, it doesn’t change my understanding of the book at all. But a common trait of the Easter Weekend, was fans coming onto forums and saying “Oh, was that a Blade Runner reference too? It makes sense now.”

I appreciate Blade Runner is an “important film”, but I don’t see why Red Dwarf has to spend 20 minutes worshipping it. Especially if it’s going to spend another 10 minutes ripping off its own finest half hour.

[Carlito]

> But I also think you don?t necessarily have to have sat down and watched something to be aware of its cultural relevance and significance. Hence my comment about heads in the sand.

But that doesn’t make any sense. Being aware of Blade Runner’s cultural relevance and significance doesn’t mean you will recognise elements of it in a homage as part of a television programme aired 30 years after it was released. You may have even SEEN the movie and not recognised these elements because it was so long ago. I’m sure a lot of people HAVE seen Blade Runner… I’m also confident that a fair few of those people watched it decades ago and haven’t seen it since.

I’d heard of Blade Runner. I’d seen ads for it now and again when it was getting an airing on TV. I’d seen posters in Matt Malone’s living room on Game On. I’d heard people mention it. I was aware of who was in it, and that it was considered a great sci-fi film. In other words, I was generally “aware of its cultural relevance and significance”.

NONE of this helped in understanding the Blade Runner elements of Back To Earth, bar those that worked as standalone jokes/story devices in their own right.

[Seb Patrick]

>30 years after it was released

Can we stop saying this, incidentally? Blade Runner’s the same age as me, and I’ve still got a few years of my twenties left, thank you very much.

>NONE of this helped in understanding the Blade Runner elements of Back To Earth, bar those that worked as standalone jokes/story devices in their own right.

Which I think is “most of them”. The only one that doesn’t is the Nose World bit, which was too long even if you DID get it. I found it hilarious and I’ll still admit that. But that’s one instance.

The other stuff? Not problematic in the slightest, in my opinion. The photo gag was funny. The Tyrell building was a beautiful shot that worked as “weird place where the Creator lives” if you haven’t seen the film. All the stuff with the Creator was flagged up by him specifically mentioning the film as inspiring that scene. The origami bits worked on their own as a clue to the real nature of things in BtE, much as they did in BR.

[si]

And what’s wrong with being thirty?

[Carlito]

Yeah, I’ve only got a couple of years to go, don’t bring me down.

[Mr Flibble]

As important as Blade Runner may be, there are plenty of important films that people know of – possibly even know the storyline of – that wouldn’t help them enjoy a parody of it.

Things like The Godfather, Shawshank Redemption… how many people have actually seen Casablanca, or *all of* Singin’ in the Rain?

I could do a TV show where obscure scenes in one of those was parodied and I bet people wouldn’t have a clue. Yet they’re all good, “important” films.

But if you want to parody, you have to do so lightly (see the “It’s a Wonderful Life” stuff in BTL) rather than just do entire scenes no-one will remember.

Unless it’s a famous scene like OFAH’s falling chandelier or something.

(Sorry that’s not very well written)

[Steve Harris]

Personally, I think the whole storyline was self explanatory enough in itself not to be totally reliant on the viewer having seen Bladerunner.
(Of course, being aware of BR would add to the enjoyment perhaps)

Regarding extras, in particular the documentaries. Nobody seems to have picked up on the fact that this is the first time that GNP etc have made a show with DVD’s in mind, everything that has gone before has been reliant on memory and involved scraping around for archive material. The DVD end product has spoken for itself in quality, so this should be even more spectacular and fresher. Reading the revue it’s as if it’s the same old stuff, OK, it’s a similar recipe but surely there’s fresher ingrediants and a wider range to look forward to.

[Carlito]

> Personally, I think the whole storyline was self explanatory enough in itself not to be totally reliant on the viewer having seen Bladerunner.
(Of course, being aware of BR would add to the enjoyment perhaps)

Indeed. Never said that Blade Runner references ruined the story. Just that they were inaccessible to those who weren’t very familiar with the film, and that the reliance on the audience having quite detailed knowledge of Blade Runner was baffling and possibly a slight misfire. You certainly CAN enjoy Back To Earth without having seen Blade Runner, because I most definitely did, but there were moments that left me scratching my head, especially the Nose World scene which seemed to be shoehorned in simply to spoof Blade Runner and had zero relevance to the story in its own right.

The picture zooming scene was amusing and made sense even if you hadn’t seen the movie. The Nose World scene didn’t.

[Carlito]

The problem is the blurring of responsibility… we are never told within the story exactly what the Blade Runner references are, bar the window smashing scene (which even then is implied). If it hadn’t been for this site, a lot of BTE’s references I may have credited to Doug Naylor as storyline elements of Back To Earth that he himself conjured up (such as the origami). Some of that stuff would have left me scratching my head in confusion as to how it was really relevant. Therefore it did rely on knowledge of Blade Runner in order to fully appreciate the story, which ever way you slice it.

[Andrew]

> Therefore it did rely on knowledge of Blade Runner in order to fully appreciate the story, which ever way you slice it.

Sure. And you have to know who Rudolph Hess was to appreciate that joke. If you refuse to reference anything unless EVERYONE will get it – thus going for things that are always as contemporary and populist as possible – suddenly Dwarf’s doing Jade Goody gags.

If the story plays, it plays. If you don’t get the odd bit because you haven’t heard of Goering, Karl Malden or Blade Runner…tough. Go read a book, or watch a DVD. And, as has been said, Blade Runner – which stands below only 2001 and Star Wars in its popular SF influence – is hardly a massively elitist choice.

> the Nose World scene which seemed to be shoehorned in simply to spoof Blade Runner and had zero relevance to the story in its own right.

But the scene is ‘crew get directions to Craig Charles, plus a vehicle, from an eccentric old RD prosthetic artist’. Without the Blade Runner stuff, it’s still a story beat that needs to happen – progression is made, a problem is solved, and the guys get closer to their goal. From general public to fan, fan to crew member, crew to cast, cast to creator. There’s a structure to that.

[Carlito]

> But the scene is ?crew get directions to Craig Charles, plus a vehicle, from an eccentric old RD prosthetic artist?. Without the Blade Runner stuff, it?s still a story beat that needs to happen – progression is made, a problem is solved, and the guys get closer to their goal. From general public to fan, fan to crew member, crew to cast, cast to creator. There?s a structure to that.

Did the crew really need to go to an old prosthetic artist to get directions to the set of Coronation Street? Or could they have just looked it up? Asked the guy in the sci-fi shop? If they needed to introduce Carbug, fair enough, I’ll give you that. Going to Nose World to find out where Craig Charles could be found was rather unneccessary though, and devoid of humour unless you ‘got’ the joke by having seen Blade Runner.

[Carlito]

> And, as has been said, Blade Runner – which stands below only 2001 and Star Wars in its popular SF influence – is hardly a massively elitist choice.

I’m only basing it on the general knowledge of those around me. When only one person I know has seen a movie, then I tend to assume it’s maybe a bit of a cult movie, a B-movie, or a flop. Of course, Blade Runner is no flop. But then if you take into account that it’s nearly three decades old, then it’s a pretty safe bet that it won’t be as well recognised in 2009 as it may have been in, say 1989. Yeah, there’ll be a higher level of recognition within sci-fi circles, but I’ve never considered Red Dwarf to be exclusively tailored towards sci-fi fans before.

[Carlito]

And by going on about it now I’m starting to feel like I’m being the negative guy bringing everyone down, yet I’ve repeatedly stated how much I loved BTE and wasn’t personally phased by the Blade Runner aspects despite having not seen it… all I was doing was trying to put into context reasons why some people may have had a bad reaction to it… one of which I strongly feel is the Blade Runner homage running through it, if the viewer hasn’t seen the film, and is but a casual RD fan. Speculation, that is all.

[Andrew]

Devoid of humour’s too subjective to argue with. (“He make your brain. It was a Friday”. That joke doesn’t need BR.) But as I said, if you insist that every joke and reference play to literally everyone, you want a different show.

Of course the scene COULD be written out. You can write almost any scene out of any film, if ‘get to the end’ is your only concern. The guy in the sci-fi shop didn’t have cast info. That’s storytelling – you introduce an obstacle, then you find a way to overcome it. And the guys weren’t sure until Swallow told them that Craig was the guy they needed to see.

Plus, as I said, there’s a specific escalation on the journey. Cut the scene, you miss a step. But it’s story-relevant, structurally appropriate and tonally important (the Cat finding someone else using his coat because here it’s just a prop; the guys anxieties making them harsher; and, crucially, it’s the first sequence to be more dreamlike in style, which is vital foreshadowing for the finale which would otherwise come out of nowhere).

Dislike the scene by all means, but it’s not ‘just a Blade Runner scene’, and it’s only cuttable if you take all the listed elements and move them elsewhere. Which is to say: if you build the narrative, tone and character steps into another scene that’s kinda like it.

[Carlito]

I don’t dislike it, I just didn’t understand the significance of it’s homage value, I got the story developments within it, but upon learning it was a take-off of a scene from Blade Runner, the reaction was basically ‘oh. so that’s what that was all about’.

[Carlito]

What I’m saying is, if “nameless viewer A”:

i) has not seen Blade Runner
ii) enjoys the show but is not a hardcore Dwarf fan (and therefore less likely to get the little back references) and just has casual interest in watching new ones
iii) is not likely to bother reading into it online (and therefore find out what the significance of these little moments are)

then I can perfectly understand why they might think the new episodes weren’t up to scratch, and/or gave up on them during the run. And I would assume that a good number of viewers fall into that “nameless viewer A” category.

[Pete Part Three]

>thus going for things that are always as contemporary and populist as possible – suddenly Dwarf?s doing Jade Goody gags.

Or references to banks collapsing?

>If you don?t get the odd bit because you haven?t heard of Goering, Karl Malden or Blade Runner?tough.

We’re not talking about the “odd” bit. We’re talking about entire scenes and sequences in the tail end of Part 2 and the majority of Part 3. This is different to a one line reference or a joke/parody. People wanted a celebration of Red Dwarf and they got a tribute to Blade Runner. Some people wanted that; fine. I expect they also enjoy cross-over fan fiction.

Personally, I’d have been equally pissed off if Billy, Sebastian, Jake and Duane had ended up at the Daily Planet for the last five minutes of Back to Reality. That would be jarring and out-of-nowhere too.

[si]

>The guy in the sci-fi shop didn?t have cast info.

Just playing Devil’s Advocate here, but he could’ve surely said, “Craig Charles is in Coronation Street now – get yourselves to Granada Studios in Manchester.”

[Andrew]

Again I refer you to the ‘create obstacle, overcome obstacle’ thing. ‘Could write it out’ isn’t the same as ‘don’t need it’. (Besides which, in the hallucinated fiction Corrie clearly isn’t the same as here – the sets are inside the exterior ‘location’ for a start. There’s no reason to think that Noddy knew where that street was. Plus at that stage in the story they weren’t specifically after Craig.)

Neo could start The Matrix with all his powers. Luke could start Star Wars as part of the Rebellion. We could cut all Peter Parker’s personal life crises out of Spider-Man. All it takes is a rewrite and you can remove practically anything. Doesn’t mean you should.

[JamesTC]

No I disagree, I think they should cut every scene apart from the first episode and a shot of Red Dwarf over earth, you know, for closure.

[Pete Part Three]

You’ve got to wonder which of the crew likes Coronation Street, which of them likes Blade Runner and why none of them know what a post box is despite clearly having seen one before.

[Seb Patrick]

… and the hallucination has to be based on things the crew have already seen becaaaaaause…?

[Carlito]

You could argue that a world in which Blade Runner, Coronation Street and post boxes exist was created by the hallucination… but as the universe created by the crew in BTE is not our own, then these things can’t have been CREATED in the hallucination, but rather embedded in it. Or in the Red Dwarf universe, OUR world simply doesn’t exist.

[Pete Part Three]

>? and the hallucination has to be based on things the crew have already seen becaaaaaause??

Because otherwise it’s an improbable coincidence that they’ve dreamt up a TV show which closely resembles “our” TV show called Coronation Street. And, as a solution, that actually makes less sense than mine; it’s slightly more feasible if it’s inspired by an actual show, rather than dreamt up completely independently…but being very much the same thing.

[Seb Patrick]

Because otherwise it?s an improbable coincidence that they?ve dreamt up a TV show which closely resembles ?our? TV show called Coronation Street.

Is it, though? It’s a fictional universe. The “story”, as such, is simply that they dreamt up a fictional TV show, and a fictional movie by which their fictional adventures could be inspired. Making it one that we in the “real” world know simply makes the story more entertaining to us the viewer (in much the same way as having aliens speak English in just about every sci-fi film or TV show ever makes it possible for us to watch the bastard things – is THAT an improbable coincidence?). In Dwarf’s universe, though, it’s just some weird show that the Dwarfers’ minds have made up. It doesn’t have to be something that they’ve seen in real life for them to imagine it.

[pfm]

> You could argue that a world in which Blade Runner, Coronation Street and post boxes exist was created by the hallucination? but as the universe created by the crew in BTE is not our own, then these things can?t have been CREATED in the hallucination, but rather embedded in it. Or in the Red Dwarf universe, OUR world simply doesn?t exist.

The Dwarfers are from a universe in which Blade Runner and Coronation Street do NOT have to exist for real in order for this plot to work. In fact, what are the chances of Lister never hearing of Corrie when he knows other TV shows? ANYTHING is possible in a parallel world. You could have a universe where every single film and TV show exists exactly the same as in our universe EXCEPT for Corrie and Blade Runner, which for an infinite number of potential reasons (maybe Ridley Scott decided to turn left one day) did not get made. And because anything is possible, those two could be created within the hallucination. There could be another universe where the actor Craig Charles is working on an entirely different and original show.

I give up. Doug is crap.

[pfm]

> It?s a fictional universe. The ?story?, as such, is simply that they dreamt up a fictional TV show, and a fictional movie by which their fictional adventures could be inspired.

THIS THIS THIS. THIS.

[Author]

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