Should they have continued Red Dwarf after Series VI?

[Jawscvmcdia]

I refer to a comment on Den of Geek, which was:

“Once a story’s been done, characters are explored, there’s no point in continuing something just because you liked what came before.

Red Dwarf wrapped up in season six really – the departure of Rob Grant and the lack of enthusiasm of Chris Barrie after that should have meant they left it alone. I understand the draw for continuing – it’s similar to our draw towards re-watching it, but it should have been resisted.

Sometimes it’s just better to leave things well alone and keep them as happy memories. This show should have been quietly taken out to the woods and shot in the head years ago. Since Rob Grant’s departure, laughs have been very rare. It’s obvious from their two separate novels, Last Human and Backwards that Rob Grant was the creative force behind the show.”

Thoughts?

Topic

[Plastic Percy]

Here’s the deckplan from the roleplaying game. The creators have said they put it together watching VI and that they’ve had to fudge it to make things work. The medi-bay is clearly an entrance to the cargo decks in Psirens and it’s clear there’s a door under/next to the stairs in Out of Time when Rimmer runs out to shoot the Time Drive.

http://www.coldnorth.com/owen/game/startrek/universe/source/fun/starbugdecks.jpg

[Phobos And Deimos]

The Kryten retrofit does work in that deckplan, the cargo hold is a touch too small but overall it makes sense given the limited internal capacity.

As for the Series VII Starbug, oh boy, you have to assume the inside was expanded by a factor of a hundred to even begin to make sense of the gargantuan engine deck, the crawlspaces, the medi-bay, everything. Plus, some of those areas didn’t exist even as more compact versions before the temporal paradox so I’m leaning towards the idea that the future and present Starbugs amalgamated somehow, retaining features of the present-day ship and adding new volume and features of the future craft.

It begs the question, why didn’t the future crew upgrade to a luxury cruiser? Were the time and faster than light drives hardwired into Starbug and unable to be transferred?

[Plastic Percy]

Kryten does mention that the cargo decks alone have expanded by 212% in Tikka to Ride.

One thing I don’t like about the changes, more of a niggle really, is that the Starbug control sticks have turned into simple black handles instead of the white triangular ones used in IV – VI.

Speaking of the Starbug cockpit, I’ve recently noticed how shoddy it looks in III. The controls are just a set of keyboards and instead of the jet fighter style pilot chairs they have to sit on simple folding chairs instead. Except for in Backwards, where Rimmer is sat on a high backed one that looks rather shabby.

[Dax101]

They did go abit far with the starbug expansion for series 7.

[Dave]

I don’t think they went far enough. I think they should be able to dock Red Dwarf inside it.

[International Debris]

The dimensional anomalies thing is a fairly flimsy excuse for it all really, although yes it is there. But it all just seems so utterly convoluted when the far simpler solution of ‘they find Red Dwarf’ would have it all make much more sense in-universe. Most of VII is blatantly written for a Red Dwarf-sized ship, I just can’t get why Doug thought a ‘bigger on the inside’ Starbug would be the best way to achieve that.

[JamesTC]

We need to ask Ed Bye about this.

[flanl3]

Then where do we place the starbug upper deck set?

[Phobos And Deimos]

Now that I think about it, we all casually accept that they just lost a five mile long interplanetary tramp steamer between Series V and VI and there’s nary a peep as to how, why or exactly when. If Doug had pulled that trick, say between Series X and XI, they’d be fucking mayhem on this forum.

So it’s not out of the question that they’re on a Sunday drive one day between Tikka To Ride (OUT OF TIME – PART II) and Stoke Me A Clipper, Cat’s at the helm snoozing and they whack straight into the side of Red Dwarf purely by chance.

I think the original arc of the movie was to be on Starbug for Act I, find Red Dwarf with a full crew mysteriously enough for Act II and some heroic simulant bashing and saving the ship and the day in Act III so it made sense to keep them on Starbug for Series VII which also acted as a visual test-run for the movie.

[Phobos And Deimos]

Pray I don’t go any further.

[bloodteller]

“I think the original arc of the movie was to be on Starbug for Act I, find Red Dwarf with a full crew mysteriously enough for Act II and some heroic simulant bashing and saving the ship and the day in Act III”

wasn’t the movie supposed to be an entire reboot of the series though? it was mentioned as being a “non-sequel” several times i think.

[Phobos And Deimos]

Thank fuck the Duke of Manchester nixed the idea then.

[Dave]

Now that I think about it, we all casually accept that they just lost a five mile long interplanetary tramp steamer between Series V and VI and there’s nary a peep as to how, why or exactly when.

There’s the whole conversation in Psirens about the ship being stolen that sets up the overarching story. It’s a long-running mystery that doesn’t get resolved until the end of series VII. It’s not like they just forget to explain it.

[Phobos And Deimos]

I know but it’s the casualness I find funny. Older Doctor Who was the same, they would just chuck canon, continuity and whole characters out of the window with no explanation, leaving that canon-loving bastard tinker Moffat to skip amongst the ruins and pick off the best bits.

[Dave]

I don’t tend to mind overlooking canon and continuity concerns if it makes for a better story. And Red Dwarf has done enough rewriting of its past history that it shouldn’t be surprising when it happens.

But the plot about losing the ship doesn’t fall into that category for me. It’s just an attempt to do something a bit different with a series arc (that obviously ended up running for a couple of series).

Rewatching Psirens recently, I realised how much it felt like a ‘soft reboot’ for the show (a bit like the first episode of the latest series of Doctor Who). It spends a fair bit of time at the beginning restating the concept of the entire show, and in doing so moving it on from the point where we left it at the end of the previous series. It’s a bit of a jump for regular viewers but I think it works fine.

[(deleted)]

‘Canon’ is an overvalued, very modern dogma. If anything it actually contradicts and runs counter to the fluidity of human memory.

Canon spring-cleaning/gatekeeping dressed up as entertainment is always joyless bollocks.

[Phobos And Deimos]

But I like the joyless bollocks of it all.

[International Debris]

I’m not the biggest fan of the losing Red Dwarf idea as it takes things a touch too heavily into the action/adventure approach for my liking, but I can completely appreciate it as a creative decision to take the show somewhere new. It gives VI a very distinct feel, and while it isn’t one I always appreciate, I have no criticism of the decision to do so. It also adds a touch of peril to their situation, which returns to the sense of bleakness from the earlier series.

VII just feels like a case of Doug wanting to have his cake and eat it. Let’s have them flying round in Starbug, but let’s also have Starbug big enough to have miles of ducts, a massive VR suite, large cargo decks, a science room, a big misty turbine room etc.

Put it another way: in Dimension Jump, when the Wildfire hits Starbug, the ships are the same size. In Stoke Me a Clipper, the Wildfire docks in a comparatively cavernous room in the rear section of Starbug. If Doug wanted the scale of the mothership back, I cannot fathom why he didn’t just write it back in.

[Phobos And Deimos]

Well I can’t bloody well make it all non-canon. Right, here we go…

Rimmer destroys the time drive, Starbug explodes in a ball of temporal flame and nineteen years later, we’re somehow back on Red Dwarf as Lister watches a pig race. At this point, we’re going to be down to the second half of Marooned and a seven minute video of autograph signing at Dimension Jump XV in which I’m caught almost tripping over in front of Chris Barrie.

It’s never irked me how big Starbug is in Series VII up to recently. Now I can’t shake the ridiculousness of it.

[International Debris]

I remember finding it a tiny bit strange at the time (I also remember really cringing at the pizza joke on first watch, thinking ‘wow, I hope it all isn’t this unfunny’), it’s just got more annoying every time I’ve watched it.

[Dave]

I remember thinking that the whole thing with Starbug expanding was just an excuse to get those turbine shots in.

Obviously it was more than just that, but even at the time I remember it feeling quite forced.

To be honest though, even in VI there are times when it feels like the ship is a bit too big and they’ve had to stretch it for plot reasons – especially the location in Psirens with the waste compactor.

[Phobos And Deimos]

Godley & Creme – The History ~ Of Changes To Starbug’s Interior Volume ~ Mix Volume 1

[Plastic Percy]

I’ve often wondered if it was the notion of not filming in front of an audience that spurred Doug to expand (Xtend, if you will) Starbug’s interior. I – V were limited to basically the bunk room, science room/drive room, a bit of corridor and one or two guest sets.

[Paul Muller]

The fact that they have a time machine which can transport them through time and space, as it does in Tikka, begs the following question:

Why didn’t they just time-jump back to Red Dwarf’s last known location before it went missing, lurk around waiting for their past selves to fuck off in Starbug then collect Red Dwarf and carry on their merry way?

That would also give a nice paradoxy, warped logical explanation as to why it went missing in the first place and avoid all the nanobot bullshit.

[International Debris]

Yes, that would be a superb way to a) bring Red Dwarf back and b) get rid of all the daft TARDIStarbug nonsense from VII.

The “we can’t use the time drive to go back to the past because it could interfere and fuck everything up” idea is a sound one, but as you say, why not just go back to Red Dwarf around the time they lost it, as that’s not going to be interfering with any timelines.

Along the same lines, searching for the cure in Epideme could have been achieved by just using the time drive to get to the planet rather than tricking the virus into updating the ship’s engine. Just go two seconds into the future and set coordinates for the planet.

I fucking hate the time drive.

[bloodteller]

they COULD’VE used the timedrive to get back to Red Dwarf, but for most of Series VII the characters seem to stop giving a shit about finding the ship at all. they never even mention that they’re even searching for it, and it isn’t even spoken of until Nanarchy (i think?) like even a brief mention that they need to find it would at least be something, but no they just spend the entire series driving around deep space in search of nothing in particular

[International Debris]

There’s the deleted ‘long story’ joke in Ouroboros. A very funny joke that’s driven into the ground, VIII-style.

[Phobos And Deimos]

All I’ve ever wanted was a standard issue Aigburth Arms Grav-Pool table held up by chains.

[Plastic Percy]

They could’ve used the time drive when they got back to the ocean planet from Back to Reality. Go back two hundred years or so and find Red Dwarf where they parked it. If they were the ones who stole Red Dwarf from themselves they could’ve avoided VIII.

[Paul Muller]

“Gosh, I just said that!”

“Did you, really? That’s incredible! What a lovely story!”

[Stephen Abootman]

We badly need some Series XII news.

[flanl3]

What? No! This is the regular discussion of a fandom which is completely and totally not bored!

[Dave]

Yeah, but listen – what if they used the time drive to go back and steal Red Dwarf from their past selves? That would tie it all up nice and neatly, and avoid VIII and the nanobot stuff altogether.

[Phobos And Deimos]

I know what we would all do with the time drive.

Snipe Hitler? No.
Persuade Rob Grant to remain on for another two series? No.
Forge the signatures on contracts promising at least two American seasons of Red Dwarf? No.

—

We would crowdfund an entire series worth of barely watchable, badly compressed mobisodes and then fuck each other!

That’s what we would do!

[flanl3]

What if they went back in time amd killed themselves over the time drive?

[Dave]

What if they went back in time and killed themselves over the time drive?

Then explaining it would make a video camera explode, or something.

[International Debris]

You know what fucks me off about the video camera exploding thing? I said that’s how it’d resolve in the school playground when I was 11. Ok I’m autistic and probably have more of a grasp of time travel / paradox logistics than your average 11 year old, but it was so fucking patronising that the idea was portrayed as so complex that it made cameras explode. There are far more complicated ideas than that in the history of the show, so to have a “lol so complex it fucks up hardware” complete highlights the dumbing down of the show in VII / VIII.

[Pete Part Three]

The video camera has obviously got AI in it, and has…ah, fuck this. I’m not defending this. It’s not worth the effort.

[flanl3]

A very low level of AI. It’s a fairly simple joke, it’s not like it makes everything explode. Thus, Kryten.

[JamesTC]

No, ketchup makes Kryten’s head explode.

[Ben Paddon]

In fairness, Kryten lived through the paradox. The camera AI…

…oh, I’m going to bed, this is gonna go on all night.

[flanl3]

I mean, I never would have guessed that the camera had AI if it hadn’t exploded. Was it actually listening to and analyzing what Lister was saying? Why?

[bloodteller]

maybe the camera blew itself up out of sheer frustration at Lister’s half-arsed cliffhanger explanation

[Phobos And Deimos]

Exploding cameras, half-arsed explanations, tedious shots of massive wind tunnels, macabre violence to end the episode, all that and more will be resolved and tidied up in the all-new, all-saucy special edition of Tikka to Ride, now titled ‘Out of Time – Part II’.

DISCLAIMER – Will still include The Fat Basteria joke.

[clem]

Unless I’ve never actually gotten the joke, Jeff K is at least as bad as giant pizza. Is it just that Rimmer’s meant to be saying “JFK” in such a way that it sounds like “Jeff K” to Lister?

The camera explodes because they’re in an unreality bubble.

[flanl3]

The camera bubbles because they’re in an unreality explosion.

[Dave]

Come to think of it, why is Lister recording a complicated explanation of the cliffhanger resolution anyway?

[Phobos And Deimos]

To document life on-board ship, which is code for ‘can’t be arsed weaving exposition into the story-line so here’s a big, steaming data dump at the beginning’.

[International Debris]

Because that’s how you send out an SOS.

Jeff K sort of amuses me at how crap it is, but yes it’s not a very good joke. There are a lot of not very good jokes in Tikka.

[Dave]

Because that’s how you send out an SOS.

I like the idea that an SOS needs to detail everything that you’ve been up to in the past week.

Why would people come and help you if they didn’t know the precise details of how you got into your current predicament?

[Author]

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