Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum Should they have continued Red Dwarf after Series VI?

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  • #220139
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    VI Starbug just about works, as whilst there is more than we’ve seen before you can just about make it all fit (the engine decks and living quarters making up part of the rear section of the Bug) and I’ve always understood it that the sleeping quarters/science room/medi-bay are all the same room but with various pieces of equipment wheeled out when necessary. Plus we do see some economy in Gunmen of the Apocalypse when it’s clear that Lister and Cat are bunkmates.

    And Phobos, you’re right – the design ethic was that Kryten had spent two hundred years refitting the ship to make it both suitable for long term habitation and to better chase Red Dwarf.

    #220140
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    Here’s the deckplan from the roleplaying game. The creators have said they put it together watching VI and that they’ve had to fudge it to make things work. The medi-bay is clearly an entrance to the cargo decks in Psirens and it’s clear there’s a door under/next to the stairs in Out of Time when Rimmer runs out to shoot the Time Drive.

    http://www.coldnorth.com/owen/game/startrek/universe/source/fun/starbugdecks.jpg

    #220141

    The Kryten retrofit does work in that deckplan, the cargo hold is a touch too small but overall it makes sense given the limited internal capacity.

    As for the Series VII Starbug, oh boy, you have to assume the inside was expanded by a factor of a hundred to even begin to make sense of the gargantuan engine deck, the crawlspaces, the medi-bay, everything. Plus, some of those areas didn’t exist even as more compact versions before the temporal paradox so I’m leaning towards the idea that the future and present Starbugs amalgamated somehow, retaining features of the present-day ship and adding new volume and features of the future craft.

    It begs the question, why didn’t the future crew upgrade to a luxury cruiser? Were the time and faster than light drives hardwired into Starbug and unable to be transferred?

    #220142
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    Kryten does mention that the cargo decks alone have expanded by 212% in Tikka to Ride.

    One thing I don’t like about the changes, more of a niggle really, is that the Starbug control sticks have turned into simple black handles instead of the white triangular ones used in IV – VI.

    Speaking of the Starbug cockpit, I’ve recently noticed how shoddy it looks in III. The controls are just a set of keyboards and instead of the jet fighter style pilot chairs they have to sit on simple folding chairs instead. Except for in Backwards, where Rimmer is sat on a high backed one that looks rather shabby.

    #220143
    Dax101
    Participant

    They did go abit far with the starbug expansion for series 7.

    #220144
    Dave
    Participant

    I don’t think they went far enough. I think they should be able to dock Red Dwarf inside it.

    #220145

    The dimensional anomalies thing is a fairly flimsy excuse for it all really, although yes it is there. But it all just seems so utterly convoluted when the far simpler solution of ‘they find Red Dwarf’ would have it all make much more sense in-universe. Most of VII is blatantly written for a Red Dwarf-sized ship, I just can’t get why Doug thought a ‘bigger on the inside’ Starbug would be the best way to achieve that.

    #220146
    JamesTC
    Participant

    We need to ask Ed Bye about this.

    #220147
    flanl3
    Participant

    Then where do we place the starbug upper deck set?

    #220148

    Now that I think about it, we all casually accept that they just lost a five mile long interplanetary tramp steamer between Series V and VI and there’s nary a peep as to how, why or exactly when. If Doug had pulled that trick, say between Series X and XI, they’d be fucking mayhem on this forum.

    So it’s not out of the question that they’re on a Sunday drive one day between Tikka To Ride (OUT OF TIME – PART II) and Stoke Me A Clipper, Cat’s at the helm snoozing and they whack straight into the side of Red Dwarf purely by chance.

    I think the original arc of the movie was to be on Starbug for Act I, find Red Dwarf with a full crew mysteriously enough for Act II and some heroic simulant bashing and saving the ship and the day in Act III so it made sense to keep them on Starbug for Series VII which also acted as a visual test-run for the movie.

    #220149

    Pray I don’t go any further.

    #220151
    bloodteller
    Participant

    “I think the original arc of the movie was to be on Starbug for Act I, find Red Dwarf with a full crew mysteriously enough for Act II and some heroic simulant bashing and saving the ship and the day in Act III”

    wasn’t the movie supposed to be an entire reboot of the series though? it was mentioned as being a “non-sequel” several times i think.

    #220152

    Thank fuck the Duke of Manchester nixed the idea then.

    #220153
    Dave
    Participant

    Now that I think about it, we all casually accept that they just lost a five mile long interplanetary tramp steamer between Series V and VI and there’s nary a peep as to how, why or exactly when.

    There’s the whole conversation in Psirens about the ship being stolen that sets up the overarching story. It’s a long-running mystery that doesn’t get resolved until the end of series VII. It’s not like they just forget to explain it.

    #220154

    I know but it’s the casualness I find funny. Older Doctor Who was the same, they would just chuck canon, continuity and whole characters out of the window with no explanation, leaving that canon-loving bastard tinker Moffat to skip amongst the ruins and pick off the best bits.

    #220155
    Dave
    Participant

    I don’t tend to mind overlooking canon and continuity concerns if it makes for a better story. And Red Dwarf has done enough rewriting of its past history that it shouldn’t be surprising when it happens.

    But the plot about losing the ship doesn’t fall into that category for me. It’s just an attempt to do something a bit different with a series arc (that obviously ended up running for a couple of series).

    Rewatching Psirens recently, I realised how much it felt like a ‘soft reboot’ for the show (a bit like the first episode of the latest series of Doctor Who). It spends a fair bit of time at the beginning restating the concept of the entire show, and in doing so moving it on from the point where we left it at the end of the previous series. It’s a bit of a jump for regular viewers but I think it works fine.

    #220156
    (deleted)
    Member

    ‘Canon’ is an overvalued, very modern dogma. If anything it actually contradicts and runs counter to the fluidity of human memory.

    Canon spring-cleaning/gatekeeping dressed up as entertainment is always joyless bollocks.

    #220157

    But I like the joyless bollocks of it all.

    #220158

    I’m not the biggest fan of the losing Red Dwarf idea as it takes things a touch too heavily into the action/adventure approach for my liking, but I can completely appreciate it as a creative decision to take the show somewhere new. It gives VI a very distinct feel, and while it isn’t one I always appreciate, I have no criticism of the decision to do so. It also adds a touch of peril to their situation, which returns to the sense of bleakness from the earlier series.

    VII just feels like a case of Doug wanting to have his cake and eat it. Let’s have them flying round in Starbug, but let’s also have Starbug big enough to have miles of ducts, a massive VR suite, large cargo decks, a science room, a big misty turbine room etc.

    Put it another way: in Dimension Jump, when the Wildfire hits Starbug, the ships are the same size. In Stoke Me a Clipper, the Wildfire docks in a comparatively cavernous room in the rear section of Starbug. If Doug wanted the scale of the mothership back, I cannot fathom why he didn’t just write it back in.

    #220159

    Well I can’t bloody well make it all non-canon. Right, here we go…

    Rimmer destroys the time drive, Starbug explodes in a ball of temporal flame and nineteen years later, we’re somehow back on Red Dwarf as Lister watches a pig race. At this point, we’re going to be down to the second half of Marooned and a seven minute video of autograph signing at Dimension Jump XV in which I’m caught almost tripping over in front of Chris Barrie.

    It’s never irked me how big Starbug is in Series VII up to recently. Now I can’t shake the ridiculousness of it.

    #220162

    I remember finding it a tiny bit strange at the time (I also remember really cringing at the pizza joke on first watch, thinking ‘wow, I hope it all isn’t this unfunny’), it’s just got more annoying every time I’ve watched it.

    #220163
    Dave
    Participant

    I remember thinking that the whole thing with Starbug expanding was just an excuse to get those turbine shots in.

    Obviously it was more than just that, but even at the time I remember it feeling quite forced.

    To be honest though, even in VI there are times when it feels like the ship is a bit too big and they’ve had to stretch it for plot reasons – especially the location in Psirens with the waste compactor.

    #220164

    Godley & Creme – The History ~ Of Changes To Starbug’s Interior Volume ~ Mix Volume 1

    #220165
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    I’ve often wondered if it was the notion of not filming in front of an audience that spurred Doug to expand (Xtend, if you will) Starbug’s interior. I – V were limited to basically the bunk room, science room/drive room, a bit of corridor and one or two guest sets.

    #220166
    Paul Muller
    Participant

    The fact that they have a time machine which can transport them through time and space, as it does in Tikka, begs the following question:

    Why didn’t they just time-jump back to Red Dwarf’s last known location before it went missing, lurk around waiting for their past selves to fuck off in Starbug then collect Red Dwarf and carry on their merry way?

    That would also give a nice paradoxy, warped logical explanation as to why it went missing in the first place and avoid all the nanobot bullshit.

    #220167

    Yes, that would be a superb way to a) bring Red Dwarf back and b) get rid of all the daft TARDIStarbug nonsense from VII.

    The “we can’t use the time drive to go back to the past because it could interfere and fuck everything up” idea is a sound one, but as you say, why not just go back to Red Dwarf around the time they lost it, as that’s not going to be interfering with any timelines.

    Along the same lines, searching for the cure in Epideme could have been achieved by just using the time drive to get to the planet rather than tricking the virus into updating the ship’s engine. Just go two seconds into the future and set coordinates for the planet.

    I fucking hate the time drive.

    #220168
    bloodteller
    Participant

    they COULD’VE used the timedrive to get back to Red Dwarf, but for most of Series VII the characters seem to stop giving a shit about finding the ship at all. they never even mention that they’re even searching for it, and it isn’t even spoken of until Nanarchy (i think?) like even a brief mention that they need to find it would at least be something, but no they just spend the entire series driving around deep space in search of nothing in particular

    #220171

    There’s the deleted ‘long story’ joke in Ouroboros. A very funny joke that’s driven into the ground, VIII-style.

    #220174

    All I’ve ever wanted was a standard issue Aigburth Arms Grav-Pool table held up by chains.

    #220175
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    They could’ve used the time drive when they got back to the ocean planet from Back to Reality. Go back two hundred years or so and find Red Dwarf where they parked it. If they were the ones who stole Red Dwarf from themselves they could’ve avoided VIII.

    #220176
    Paul Muller
    Participant

    “Gosh, I just said that!”

    “Did you, really? That’s incredible! What a lovely story!”

    #220177
    Stephen Abootman
    Participant

    We badly need some Series XII news.

    #220178
    flanl3
    Participant

    What? No! This is the regular discussion of a fandom which is completely and totally not bored!

    #220179
    Dave
    Participant

    Yeah, but listen – what if they used the time drive to go back and steal Red Dwarf from their past selves? That would tie it all up nice and neatly, and avoid VIII and the nanobot stuff altogether.

    #220180

    I know what we would all do with the time drive.

    Snipe Hitler? No.
    Persuade Rob Grant to remain on for another two series? No.
    Forge the signatures on contracts promising at least two American seasons of Red Dwarf? No.

    We would crowdfund an entire series worth of barely watchable, badly compressed mobisodes and then fuck each other!

    That’s what we would do!

    #220181
    flanl3
    Participant

    What if they went back in time amd killed themselves over the time drive?

    #220182
    Dave
    Participant

    What if they went back in time and killed themselves over the time drive?

    Then explaining it would make a video camera explode, or something.

    #220184

    You know what fucks me off about the video camera exploding thing? I said that’s how it’d resolve in the school playground when I was 11. Ok I’m autistic and probably have more of a grasp of time travel / paradox logistics than your average 11 year old, but it was so fucking patronising that the idea was portrayed as so complex that it made cameras explode. There are far more complicated ideas than that in the history of the show, so to have a “lol so complex it fucks up hardware” complete highlights the dumbing down of the show in VII / VIII.

    #220186
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    The video camera has obviously got AI in it, and has…ah, fuck this. I’m not defending this. It’s not worth the effort.

    #220187
    flanl3
    Participant

    A very low level of AI. It’s a fairly simple joke, it’s not like it makes everything explode. Thus, Kryten.

    #220193
    JamesTC
    Participant

    No, ketchup makes Kryten’s head explode.

    #220195
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    In fairness, Kryten lived through the paradox. The camera AI…

    …oh, I’m going to bed, this is gonna go on all night.

    #220198
    flanl3
    Participant

    I mean, I never would have guessed that the camera had AI if it hadn’t exploded. Was it actually listening to and analyzing what Lister was saying? Why?

    #220201
    bloodteller
    Participant

    maybe the camera blew itself up out of sheer frustration at Lister’s half-arsed cliffhanger explanation

    #220202

    Exploding cameras, half-arsed explanations, tedious shots of massive wind tunnels, macabre violence to end the episode, all that and more will be resolved and tidied up in the all-new, all-saucy special edition of Tikka to Ride, now titled ‘Out of Time – Part II’.

    DISCLAIMER – Will still include The Fat Basteria joke.

    #220204
    clem
    Participant

    Unless I’ve never actually gotten the joke, Jeff K is at least as bad as giant pizza. Is it just that Rimmer’s meant to be saying “JFK” in such a way that it sounds like “Jeff K” to Lister?

    The camera explodes because they’re in an unreality bubble.

    #220206
    flanl3
    Participant

    The camera bubbles because they’re in an unreality explosion.

    #220209
    Dave
    Participant

    Come to think of it, why is Lister recording a complicated explanation of the cliffhanger resolution anyway?

    #220213

    To document life on-board ship, which is code for ‘can’t be arsed weaving exposition into the story-line so here’s a big, steaming data dump at the beginning’.

    #220214

    Because that’s how you send out an SOS.

    Jeff K sort of amuses me at how crap it is, but yes it’s not a very good joke. There are a lot of not very good jokes in Tikka.

    #220218
    Dave
    Participant

    Because that’s how you send out an SOS.

    I like the idea that an SOS needs to detail everything that you’ve been up to in the past week.

    Why would people come and help you if they didn’t know the precise details of how you got into your current predicament?

    #220221

    It doesn’t really work as an SOS, does it?

    “SOS! Help! Help! The ship’s crashing! Let me tell you the intriguing and frankly difficult-to-believe set of occurrences that led to this scenario, using this handily recorded multi-angle footage of said occurences. We-”
    BOOM

    #220223
    flanl3
    Participant

    It’s a better SOS than the Samsara tried.

    “Oh, yes, let’s invite everyone to our orgy. That’ll make them want to come and save us!”

    Wait, no, that’s an excellent SOS. Never mind.

    #220229
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    Maybe the camera read this thread.

    #220230

    Maybe the camera linked into the time drive and saw Series VIII.

    #220231
    performingmonkey
    Participant

    Don’t know if there are any Oasis fans here, but, to me, VII & VIII are essentially what Be Here Now was for Oasis – the overblown ‘bloated’ 3rd album that came off the back of the huge popularity they had acquired by that stage.

    Things were starting to go this way in VI… but VII is also where the following mantra was fully embraced – ‘ohhh we’re just a silly sitcom, so let’s be a silly sitcom!’ I believe the main reason VII doesn’t work is due to how this attitude totally flies in the face of the more ‘filmic’ look and feel. It’s such a clash!

    Kryten’s character change epitomises the whole thing. Suddenly he’s being written and played like he’s ‘that silly mechanoid from that sitcom who whines, moans and cleans’, instead of simply BEING Kryten and letting the audience come to that conclusion naturally. VII is the series where they all should have been at their LEAST ‘sitcom’y’ stereotypical selves… It’s fine for them to be like that in a series like VIII (which has its own failings, for sure…..) but in VII it’s plain weird.

    AH WELL…

    #220232
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Series VI is Be Here Now.

    Series VII is Standing on the Shoulder of Giants.

    #220233
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    Does that make Back to Earth the documentary Supersonic?

    #220234
    cwickham
    Participant

    Should they have continued this thread after Post VI?

    #220236

    Series VI is Be Here Now? Series VI is The Masterplan, Series VII is Be Here Now and Series VIII is a video of Liam Gallagher knocking the fuck out of Patsy Kensit.

    Back to Earth is Standing on the Shoulder of Giants, Series X is Heathen Chemistry and Series XI is some arsed-up free with the NME tribute to Oasis by a bunch of no-mark indie synth wanks.

    I just don’t understand people who dislike Series VI.

    #220240
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Equating Series VI to Be Here Now does not mean that I dislike Series VI.

    #220243

    VI being Be Here Now works contextually, because it makes VII SOTSOG (the attempt at doing some more ‘serious’, darker and experimental) and VIII Heathen Chemistry (the embarrassingly failed attempt to return to its roots). I suppose BtE being Don’t Believe the Truth sort of works (both were seen as somewhat of a return to form at time but have been viewed less kindly with time), whilst X being Dig Out Your Soul might work, but I’ve only heard it once, despite owning it. Largely because my girlfriend loathes Oasis.

    #220244
    (deleted)
    Member

    I hope we get the XII synopsis on Friday as otherwise we’ll be reduced to discussing what flavour Revel series VII is most like.

    #220245

    Series VI is toffee. You have to persist with them but you enjoy the end result.

    Series VII is orange creme. Nice flavour but there’s something amiss, a certain sourness and you can’t eat too many.

    Series VIII is coffee, naturally. You like them at first but then you feel sick as fuck after a few and you just throw the whole packet away and makes you appreciate the sweet, Vice Versas goodness of Series V.

    Now, if Series VIII was a war crime, what war crime would it have been?

    #220250
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Series 1 and 2 is Galaxy Counters
    Series III to V is Toffee
    Series VI is Malteser
    Series VII is Orange
    Series VIII is Coffee
    Back to Earth is the discontinued Peanut
    Series X to XII is Raisin

    #220255

    Series I is Malteser, Series II is more Aero Mint and Series III is a Smarties Easter egg with the classic brown mug.

    #220256
    flanl3
    Participant

    Should this thread have continued after post VI?

    #220257
    Dave
    Participant

    Series I and II are like Kitkats with ‘Rowntree’ written down the middle.

    Series III and IV are like Kitkats with ‘KitKat’ written down the middle.

    Series V and VI are like Kitkats with ‘KitKat’ written down the middle after they discontinued the foil wrapper and switched to the peel-off plastic strip.

    Series VII is like those limited edition orange KitKats

    #220258
    Dave
    Participant

    Series VIII is like those limited edition triple chocolate KitKats.

    BtE is like a KitKat Chunky.

    X and XI are like the new recipe KitKats that are out at the moment.

    #220261

    I dunno, Series IV feels more like a KitKat Chunky and the Bodysnatcher Series I & II documentaries are the foil-wrapped KitKats.

    I’m not sure what to think anymore. Series V is starting to imitate the 1985 CD pressing of Dire Straits’ ‘Brothers In Arms’ rather than confectionery.

    Or maybe a well-used Commodore 1541 floppy drive.

    #220272
    cwickham
    Participant

    Should someone else have made the “Should this thread have continued after post VI?” joke after I already made it?

    #220284

    Should this thread have continued after post VI?

    #220285

    With the lights out, it’s less dangerous
    Here’s Series VIII now, entertain us
    I feel stupid and contagious
    Here’s Series VIII now, entertain us

    #220286
    flanl3
    Participant

    Should someone else have made the “Should this thread have continued after post VI?” joke after I already made it?

    Should somebody really have pointed out that I accidentally stole a joke?

    Should somebody have noticed that it was in dire need of being made again?

    #220710

    I’ve just read this entire thread from beginning to end. Thanks for keeping me entertained for an hour and a half guys.

    Got completely with the Oasis comparisons and coffee Revels are the best so fuck the lot of you.

    Also, I think possibly the reason people like Tikka so much, despite some of its flaws, is that it’s the most heavily sci-fi concept Red Dwarf has ever attempted I think, at least at the time. I love the idea of JFK shooting himself to fix the timelines, and it plays with history in a somewhat more informed way than you might expect from a sitcom.

    Also think it’s the more focused of the episodes of VII, the most Red Dwarfy. It’s a rounded story that’s about putting the characters in a comedic situation, whereas the rest of the series is more character drama with funny elements to it.

    To answer the threads title question … yes it bloody well should have. Even if the show is shit it gives us something to watch and discuss as fan. Some of us will love bits others don’t, we’ll get excited and apprehensive for new episodes, but ultimately it gives us something to come together and discuss that’s new and different. Even if we are capable of spending a year discussion post s06 and everything else in one post thread … comparing series to Oasis albums and Revels.

    #220981
    Tranter
    Member

    I haven’t bought a Radiohead album after Amnesiac. I know the later stuff exists but who gives a shit?

    My Series I to VI collection looks very neat without the rubbish that comes after.

    Series VII gets a pass but it sits away from the main collection like a purple special needs bus.

    #220986
    cwickham
    Participant

    Should Tranter have continued after being banned from account VI?

    #258546
    flanl3
    Participant

    yeah

    #258552
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    Just imagine if it had been cancelled after Series One. Is “Souper” really a good line to finish a show on ;)

    #258558
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Should they have continued Red Dwarf after Holly’s April Fool’s joke?

    #258561
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Red Dwarf should have ended part of the way through Back to Reality, before it’s revealed to the audience that it’s just a hallucination.

    #258565
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    Cancelled after Tikka to Ride… Lister’s story ends with his ship mates beating the crap out of him ;)

    #258655
    Jonsmad
    Participant

    I love most of Tikka to Ride. I suffered a bit of series VII but it’s mostly watchable. I enjoyed VIII on broadcast though I acknowledge now it’s a broad serial approach not the best stuff and some jokes grated. I loved Back to Earth I’ve watched it’s new dr who style of shooting and story multiple times and love it’s differences. It’s a revival triumph given it’s clip shop commission origins. I attended Berkeley square and A few Dimension Jumps rejuvenated in interest, as well as 4 Great show recordings in 3 more quality inventive series none of them any more patchy than I find half of the original 8 series to be. Just mostly enjoyed a Special.

    While it’s true the show’s writing is far more hugely repeating itself and themes these days. I still love it.
    Duct soup I loathe and the questionability of parts of time wave need taking out into the woods and shooting. But that’s all. Any completist critic can switch off fuck off and go watch watch Dark Ages with their bullshit Rob was God nonsense, however much I agree that Backwards beats Last Human.

    #258656
    Dax101
    Participant

    Honestly, if it came to Doug writing alone or Rob Writing alone. id always go for both writing together. even their solo novels they were not as good as their combined work. and with Doug, i don’t think he has a filter writing alone.

    I also think its abit unfair to judge Rob based on Dark ages to how Doug writes Red Dwarf. because how Rob would write Red Dwarf would be different to how he would write another show. its abit like judging Doug on Over to Bill, which i never watched so i have no idea what it was like. but then i also sorta thing Doug has had alot of trial and error with Red Dwarf. if you didn’t like 7? well he had the new improved series 8 to fix that mistake. you didn’t like 8? well BTE is here. oh you weren’t fond of that? well here is the new improved Series X

    Its not a simple situation.

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