Star Trek Crap

[Warbodog]

Sorry to lower the tone and for being so early in the morning. But if you’re a fan of ageing sci-fi franchises generally, or a fan of complaining about them, here are some things going on with Star Trek at the moment:

– Star Trek: Short Treks. Out Now! 4 x short episodes (10-15 mins) being released once a month before Discovery returns. Minimal and supplemental, but proper stories rather than DVD-padding minisodes. The second one (Calypso) is the most Trek has intrigued me since the 90s, written by Michael Chabon. I don’t know where you can watch these where you live.

– Discovery season 2 starts in January. Hope it’s good. I found S1 watchable and they’ve already concluded (abandoned) the war arc I didn’t like. Fan service tends to repel rather than attract me, but I have a soft spot for the ‘lost’ Captain Pike era (I probably watched ‘The Cage’ more than any other episode as a kid), so I’m more interested to see their take on that vaguely-defined crew than watching another reboot of Kirk & co.

– Star Trek: Lower Decks. An adult animated sitcom in development focusing on the humdrum lives of Starfleet technicians. Creator Mike McMahan explains, “I want to do a show about the people who put the yellow cartridge in the food replicator so a banana can come out the other end.” Where do they get their crazy ideas from? Maybe the same places Rob and Doug did, it’s not that similar really.

– Picard series in development starring Patrick Stewart. I didn’t find this announcement exciting, because I prefer new things, but I just found out Michael Chabon’s on the writing team, which will help. Excitement may come as details are released.

– Various rumours about other shows or miniseries invariably centred around existing characters and concepts, but I don’t think anything’s been confirmed and may all be uninteresting clickbait.

– Reboot Star Trek 4 is supposedly stuck in development hell, and something about a weird Tarantino proposal. I don’t care about the films any more.

But never mind that tot – best Trek film? I’d probably go with VI, because I love how timely its analogy is at the end of an era, but 1-IV are all classics or comfort watches in their own ways.

Topic

[Ben Saunders]

Was she the cute engineering girl? I saw her pop up again an episode later and was looking forward to her becoming a minor recurring character.

I’ll try to avoid reading the Netflix synopses, don’t think I know anything about Shades of Grey other than having heard the name a few times.

[Warbodog]

It’s an introspective character study with callbacks and references galore.

[Ben Saunders]

I just want more of that smokin’ hot Klingon babe from The Emissary, god damn.

WORF: K’Ehleyr. I will not be complete without you.
[beat]
WORF: I cannot believe I just said that.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Shades of Grey is one of those finale’s you don’t really expect, but once you settle down into it you see what they were going for and can really enjoy the romp that it is. You’ll learn a lot about certain characters from seeing events from their past that really bring them to life a little more.

[Warbodog]

I know some people recommend skipping seasons 1 & 2, I can’t really argue against that, but Shades of Grey really encapsulates what those years were about and what that crew’s been through. It’s a fitting tombstone I mean capstone for the Maurice Hurley era.

[Plastic Percy]

<<The Schizoid Man was very good, despite the fact that I absolutely hate the cunt who inhabited Data’s body.>>

Interestingly, the role was intended originally to be played by Patrick McGoohan.

[GlenTokyo]

The first time I ever watched TNG all the way through I enjoyed series 1 and 2 as much as any. There are some dodgy moments no doubt but more great ones, and I really liked Dr Pulaski.

[Ben Saunders]

Yeah there have been some really outstanding episodes in seasons one and two, and not too many I would unironically tell people to just not watch at all.

Hey wait a minute… I HAVE heard of Shades of Grey… it’s up there with Spock’s Brain as the widely accepted “worst episode of Star Trek ever.” I liked Spock’s Brain, though, so we’ll see.

[Warbodog]

They should have called it Riker’s Brain.

From Wikipedia:

“Shades of Gray” is widely regarded as the worst episode of the series, with critics calling it “god-awful” and a “travesty”

In all the history of the Star Trek franchise, only this episode had an average IMDb review lower than five out of 10, marking it as the worst episode ever.

That just makes me annoyed for all the lousy episodes that don’t deserve to be recognised as ‘average.’ IMDb reviewers are either too generous or really conflicted.

[Ben Saunders]

Generous, I think. A lot of episodes I really, really enjoy I only give 7/10, but giving things marks lower than 5 is quite rare. I have given a few 4s and a couple 1s and 2s but any time you’re marking something out of 10 you’re going to be a little generous

[Ben Saunders]

DATA SOMETHING’S GOT MEEEEEEEE
[Troi cries for 20 minutes]
Man that stank

[Ben Saunders]

So happy to see Dr. Crusher back

[Warbodog]

How are you finding the transition, if there’s even a noticeable change? Watching recently, I found (i.e. imagined) that episodes 1 & 2 felt like okay season 2.5 holdovers, then it suddenly becomes recognisable, “proper” TNG from ‘The Survivors’ onwards. But still with a freshness that marks it out from the later seasons. You know, in my mind.

[Ben Saunders]

Honestly I feel like that from the second episode, The Ensigns of Command. It felt like there was a huge surge in confidence and probably budget. More CG, I don’t like the new intro but the stuff in the episodes is really nice, for the most part. I thought I noticed a couple CG Enterprise shots in season two but now I’m convinced I saw some in season three. I haven’t seen Survivors yet but I’ll see if the change is even more noticeable.

I know what that feeling of a show suddenly feeling “proper is like”, I think I got that from Carnival of Monsters for Doctor Who

[Warbodog]

No CG Enterprise in TNG originally, unless the remaster has really messed around. Maybe the model just looked weird. They introduce a new shorter model later this year that was easier to film around, which stands out from the longer stock footage model because the hull plates look bulkier. Not worth making your two hero ship models visually consistent, I guess.

[Warbodog]

[Warbodog]

Or actually visible.

[Warbodog]

Never mind.

[Ben Saunders]

Hmm, that’s interesting. Maybe it was the lighting, or the cleanup process of the shots, or how it was all put together etc, but I could swear a few shots were CG. They were too… smooth, almost like they had low resolution textures.

The Survivors was pretty good. I actually caught a bit of it earlier in the year on television as I was making my lunch; some of Picard’s discussion with the survivors and the (spoilers) eventual destruction of their home. I remember thinking at the time, as I was at that point making my way through TOS, that I’d spoiled myself the surprise of what looked like a really good episode of Star Trek. However, while watching the episode just there, I couldn’t remember the details of what I had seen before, only that I had seen it before. So everything that happened remained a surprise to me, with me sort of remembering having seen it after the fact. So that was interesting.

Very heartbreaking ending, kind of strange that they just let him go without reprimand despite the enormous crime he commited. I get that he did it as a sort of knee-jerk reaction for a sympathetic reason, but that excuse wouldn’t hold up in court. I also grant that they couldn’t prosecute him if they tried, given his immense power, and maybe they decided that his grief and regret was punishment enough.

Also interesting how Picard and Beverly’s reactions to the “I had immense powers and did nothing” story are played as disgust, judgment, shock etc. Isn’t that hypocritical? Don’t they, and haven’t they done the exact same? Isn’t that what the Prime Directive dictates should be done?

I see what you mean with this being a step up, Ensigns and particularly Survivors are very meaty stories with a lot to think about.

[Lily]

Kinda inspired by this thread, I’ve been watching Voyager over the Christmas break. I watched the first few seasons when they originally aired but stopped a little while after 7of9 turned up (no idea what season that is).

I’ve got through the first two seasons now and boy has it been a slog. I didn’t remember the vast majority of the episodes from first time around, although one or two were familiar. Half the time I ended up fiddling on my phone because they were so boring though.

Season 3 seems to be picking up now so hopefully this will feel less of a grind soon.

[Warbodog]

Oh no, don’t get me started on – too late.

I have a lot of nostalgic memories of Voyager (as far as season 5), because I really liked it when I was around 11-14. But as soon as DS9 ended and Voyager became the *only* new Star Trek for the first time, I finally saw through how shallow and static it was and stopped renting the videos before the end of that year. I haven’t gone back to the series since (apart from catching up on the finale and a few others), that breakup was painful. I’ll enjoy watching the good ones again when I get over it, but I’d have to switch my critical faculties off.

Frequent TNG/DS9 writer and Battlestar Galactica creator Ron Moore gave a famously scathing interview about his very brief time working on Voyager before he quit and the fundamental problems he saw with it. Lack of ambition and no respect for their audience, I think. He may have made BSG as a gritty response of how a show like Voyager should have looked.

At least Voyager had a few decent characters, which is more than I can say for Enterprise. I’ve watched the two “good” seasons of that (3 & 4) and got nothing from those guys. I like some of the Discovery characters though, so have hope there.

[Ben Saunders]

I have really fond memories of Voyager from “watching” (seeing) it as a child, I’m sure they will be destroyed by the time I actually get around to watching it for real. My appreciation of TNG and especially TOS however has only increased since my vague childhood recollection.

[Ben Saunders]

Some notes on Who Watches the Watchers.

1) The whole idea of the “duck blind” is stupid – RedLetterMedia cover this in their review of Insurrection.

2) The whole idea to re-violate the Prime Directive in one way which Picard (read: the writer) views is “better” is sketchy at best, immoral at worst. By doing this, the crew of the Enterprise are DIRECTLY influencing the development of the planet, where before they were doing so accidentally. Before beaming the woman aboard the Enterprise, the story of Picard could have been dismissed as the murmurings of an insane man, akin to people on Earth who claim to have been abducted by aliens today, and could quickly fall to the realm of conspiracy theory or legend; there is no need to extrapolate crusades and holy wars from this incident. The obvious anti-religion slant from the script and its writer gives us the idea that guiding the people towards scientific advancement is better than allowing them to fall back into religion, but I think that’s a moot point, a flimsy excuse, and is irrelevant where the Prime Directive is concerned. As a result, we have an episode which, while good, is as confused with regards to General Order One as A Private Little War was in TOS.

3) This is all Beverly’s fault, although bless her for just wanting to do her job.

[Warbodog]

That’s one of my favourite episodes. The start of Picard being great (even as he’s desperate to prove otherwise). I like the weirdly immoral and impractical pervy surveillance, the flustered Prime Directive improv making things worse and especially the overt atheism that flat-out equates supernatural faith with dangerous primitivism. If they’d made it today, right-wing Christian YouTube would be all over it.

Nice callbacks to TOS too with the recognisable Vasquez Rocks location (Arena etc), secular theme (Apollo episode) and parallel planet development, like they were feeling confident about their show’s identity now and wanted to lean on the sequel/update/improvement angle that week. In my mind again.

[Lily]

>Frequent TNG/DS9 writer and Battlestar Galactica creator Ron Moore gave a famously scathing interview about his very brief time working on Voyager before he quit and the fundamental problems he saw with it.

Interesting read and hits a lot of the niggles I have. The episodes where they have a chance of getting home annoy me, as you already know it’s not going to happen. Even when they first aired you knew it, as that would be game over for the show. It’s just waiting to see how they fuck it up. Endless shuttles, sending off probes all the time and permanent running holodeck doesn’t tell me that they’re stuck in the delta quadrant with limited supplies.

Also the lack of peril bothers me. You know that the core crew are always safe and there will always be a reset button found by the end of the episode. Actions never have lasting consequences. Like that guy says, it just doesn’t feel ‘real’.

[Ben Saunders]

That kind of “no peril”, “reset button” criticism applies to almost every TV show ever made, you just need to get in amongst it and enjoy it on another level. The stars will never die. You could note a few exceptions, obviously, but 9 times out of 10 you know everyone is going to be OK by the end of the episode.

Isn’t equating supernatural faith to dangerous primitivism antithetical to the entire idea of “Star Trek” ? Ignoring whether or not it’s a massive oversimplification of a complex cultural phenomenon, Star Trek is all about respecting people’s beliefs and cultures.

[Warbodog]

>Star Trek is all about respecting people’s beliefs and cultures.

Yeah, all your criticisms are on point and I recognise them in the ep, but for some reason I just love the bumbling and arrogant Federation in that one (and others). DS9 is more understanding about the comfort people find in religion, and it takes the contradictory Federation to task more since we get the alien perspective.

>That kind of “no peril”, “reset button” criticism applies to almost every TV show ever made

Seriously though, wait until you hit Voyager! The very best episodes all have time travel reset button endings so nothing fucking matters. It’s like a White Hole ending again and again without the humour.

Just to spoil other shows, Battlestar Galactica and Farscape both had “looking for Earth” objectives that were subverted before the end of the series in unexpected ways. With Voyager there was never any doubt from the start that they were going to punctually arrive home in episode 7×26 (but hey, maybe they don’t!) It’s about the journey, but the journey’s a slog.

[Lily]

>>That kind of “no peril”, “reset button” criticism applies to almost every TV show ever made

>Seriously though, wait until you hit Voyager!

Glad it’s not just me then :) I think the problem is that most shows will take their characters right up to the edge of mortal peril, then do something clever or interesting to save them, so that the show can carry on. However Voyager is perfectly content to let them die, then wave a technobabble magic wand and it’s all OK again. It’s significantly less satisfying that way.

[Warbodog]

That technobabble reset button ending trope is mainly down to Brannon Braga. He wrote some of the most popular episodes of TNG later on that also fall back on that, but characters at least remember the events. In Voyager, it gets really old and the premise begs for strong continuity and ramifications. But you could watch a season 1 or season 7 episode and they’d look basically exactly the same, apart from one cast change and Janeway changing her hair. Fine if you just want more TNG, but that’s not how it was sold.

I think Voyager improves a lot in season four, that has more continuity between episodes and a sense of moving forwards rather than literally going in circles (they’re travelling in a straight line as fast as they can, but keep running into Seska and the same Kazon for two years?) But in season five, that momentum’s lost and it just feels like random episodes again. Maybe the best year in terms of individual episodes (epic action, moral quandaries, light comedies), but not much sense of the big picture. I don’t know much after that, I quit!

[Ben Saunders]

TNG S03E11: The Hunted

ZAYNAR: It was the will of the people.
TROI: To allow them to suffer?
ZAYNAR: There was a referendum. The people weighed the costs involved.

Presented without comment.

[Warbodog]

I enjoyed that one more than expected this time around, felt like TNG’s Space Seed.

What did you think of the Romulan episodes? I know The Defector’s very well regarded, but they didn’t do that much for me, just ending in repetitive Cold War stand-offs before going their separate ways. They’re useful when you need an enemy in an episode (like the Iconian gateways one), I just don’t find Romulans that interesting.

Worf’s dangerous moral stubborness in The Enemy is interesting though – Roddenberry was getting sick and not so involved any more, so character conflict starts to sneak in.

[Ben Saunders]

I thought The Defector was pretty great, got a 7/10 from me. I liked us being unsure as to the Romulan’s real loyalties, and then the final reveal that he was actually set up, it was pretty tragic. Also a nice little bit of continuity to have the same Romulan commander pop up again. I thought The Enemy was alright too but not noteworthy enough to give it a rating.

I don’t know if it’s because I’ve watched 59 episodes of The Next Generation in just over a month or because I just woke up or whatever, but remembering specific details about those episodes is quite the challenge for me, lol. LaForge is left behind… meets some Romulan dude… convinces him to help him… some shit happens on the Enterprise. Another Romulan dude appears wanting to defect but he doesn’t do it particularly convincingly, gives a nice speech and Picard quotes Shakespeare or something. I enjoyed it while it was on, for sure.

[Warbodog]

They were probably trying to depict a sophisticated high-brow utopia with all the holodeck Shakespeare and string quartets, but when the more relaxed spin-offs come along with their more flawed characters who seem to spend a lot of time pissing about, it makes the 1701-D stand out as the elite and stuffy flagship in retrospect. Where you might be embarrassed to admit you’ve just never been that into 600-year-old, copyright-exempt entertainment from one specific continent.

[Ben Saunders]

I’ve never really “got” the whole thing about Shakespeare, the prestige it entails. I mean sure Macbeth is pretty good and he had quite the influence on many modern stories, but why is his work SO revered? Like why do people get rounds of applause for being able to quote a couple of lines from Hamlet, when I could recite the entirety of Jesus of Suburbia right now and at best people would just ask me nicely to stop? To me it’s a bit like jazz, where because there’s a slight barrier to entry (being able to actually understand it) it invites snobbery. I love Picard, but if my captain was constantly banging on about Henry VIII and classical music in real life I’d probably ask to be transferred to another ship.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I’M THE SON OF RAGE AND LOVE

I’m with you Ben … but then maybe we just didn’t pay close enough attention in our English classes.
I think it’s something to do with how he uses language and stuff, he sentence structure, how it’s poetic and powerful blah blah etc.

Most of the plays themselves aren’t anything original … it’s like Disney doing fairy tales … but the way he wrote (a lot of which I’m told is quite funny when delivered correctly) was accessible to the masses and became a bed rock of English language.

I suppose it has historical importance, but beyond that Shakespeare, it’s over!

[Warbodog]

Shakespeare’s an easy shorthand in pop culture for old writer bloke you’ve heard of, like Leonardo, Mozart and Beat-hoven in their fields. Mentioned in several Red Dwarf episodes as an easy target for Rimmer’s classical aspirations, before he changes his mind.

There are lots of old writers whose works I love, but Shakespeare never really did anything for me. He’s the Romulans of English literature. I avoided him almost entirely during my degree, I thought it was more worthwhile to study Star Trek in-depth like some crazy millennial.

I’ve seen… Forbidden Planet, that’s based on one of them.

[Ben Saunders]

Just finished Yesterday’s Enterprise… now THAT was a good episode. This is why I love sci-fi. For the kinds of stories you can tell, with lots of timey wimey bollocks, bringing characters back from the dead, raising the stakes to astronomical levels. The dynamic between a man who should have died in the past and a woman who should have died in the future. Allowing a character who died senselessly to die again in glory. The idea that one ship FAILING its mission in the past and being destroyed could be the catalyst through which the honour-bound Klingons find peace with the Federation. Cracking stuff.

It ends a bit abruptly, there’s no real “whoosh, everything is okay now”, no time to calm down after it’s all over, but perhaps because of that, it sticks in your mind long after the credits have rolled. And that final line from Guinan to LaForge is supremely touching.

[Ben Saunders]

The Offspring actually made me cry, that was beautiful. Two incredible episodes in a row, shaw a show.

[Ben Saunders]

What a show*

[Warbodog]

This is the good shit! I’d say from Deja Q on (because I love that lightweight comedy classic) they went up another gear and this is peak TNG now… with noticeable dips, admittedly.

The Offspring: Best Data episode and one of the best TNG episodes. It even makes the reset button ending part of the story – Data just gets on with life unfazed and we have to grieve on his behalf. Racist funnyman Jim Davidson once referenced this episode on Big Break, trying to impress an Indian contestant by showing off that he knew a Hindi word (‘Lal’). He’s apparently a big Star Trek fan. Weird how these things work.

Yesterday’s Enterprise: Classic, but didn’t wow me watching again after so long, maybe because I know it too well. Felt a bit like a City on the Edge + Mirror Mirror mash-up/reimagining, coming from the new season 3 writers who really know Star Trek and wanted to celebrate it. Don’t think it was even an anniversary or anything.

A Matter of Perspective: Less interesting now I know the stylistic device is just Rashomon. Not that I’ve seen Rashomon, but I’ve seen several shows’ Rashomon episodes. Most interesting thing this time around was that the sexual harrassment claim against Riker isn’t considered worth investigating on its own right once the murder charge is dropped. We know he’s innocent, but weird that they raised that doubt just to leave it hanging.

Deja Q: forget season-ending cliffhangers, best ending ever?

[Ben Saunders]

People who recommend skipping the first two seasons are barmy, because then Yesterday’s Enterprise loses a lot of its impact, and you miss out on Measure of a Man et al.

Déjà Q was fun, and A Matter of Perspective was interesting first time ’round at least. But whatever episode comes after that with Worf and his brother or whatever, man was I bored watching that. Totally fails to keep up the steam from the past two/three eps.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I actually think the first two series of TNG, whilst a little inconsistent to (what would later become) established Trek quality, are the closest the show comes to fulfilling its mission statement of exploring strange new worlds and new civilisations. From series 3 on wards The Enterprise D and it’s crew become a glorified taxi service, ferrying important diplomats around The Federation, very rarely interacting with any new species. Most of the time they’re interacting with known elements, known species, known civilisations.

I love TNG for what it becomes but it isn’t the show of exploration it claims to be.

Voyager on the other hand, by way of the fact they are stranded on the other side of the galaxy, basically hit something new every week (with some recurring races / characters every so often) and as much as it has it’s problems, it’s one of my favourite of the series because of it.

[Warbodog]

Early TNG is its own distinct entity bridging TOS and Proper TNG that I appreciate, but I’d recommend people avoid it if they just wanted to check out the series to see if they liked it or had seen it before but just wanted to watch a load of random episodes with a better chance of them not being ‘The Outrageous Okona.’

If someone’s already decided they’re going to watch a show, I don’t know why they’d ask which bits they can skip and not be incredibly curious about the parts they’re not seeing or feel like they’re missing out. “Do I need to watch the Ninth Doctor?” Nah, just wonder forever what that might have been like and spend the time you could have been watching an episode and deciding for yourself asking this stupid question instead and reading the inevitably inconclusive replies.

[Warbodog]

That happened with me and Buffy. I caught one bad season 1 episode (‘The Pack’) that was all the bad things I’d assumed the series would be, so didn’t watch it again for years until my brother showed me season 4’s ‘Hush.’ Then I was in.

[Warbodog]

Eesh. Just read that they’ve confirmed one of the rumoured Discovery spin-offs focusing on Michelle Yeoh’s [ridiculous and completely unlikeable] character doing shady things for Starfleet’s Black Ops (which was introduced in a few decent DS9 episodes before getting out of hand).

Didn’t even read past the headline before quitting that one, that’s a new record. Some of my favourite Trek episodes are when they go surprisingly dark and challenge the franchise’s lofty ideals, but making that the whole series? Oh well, I’ll inevitably end up watching the pilot at least. It’s all about the quality of writing, isn’t it?

Discovery S2 starts this Thursday/Friday (depending on location). Can’t say I’m feeling very positive, but I liked some… a couple… one of the Short Treks, so they do have the ability to write decent stories, I hope they use it. I don’t mind if it’s not Star Trek, just make it worth watching please. For the record, I enjoyed season 1 more than late Voyager or all of Enterprise.

[Ben Saunders]

It took me until S03E20 to realise Marina Sirtis is wearing contact lenses. I thought she just had really nice, dark brown/black eyes. When I saw Majel Barrett with black eyes I assumed it was just to make her look different from… Majel Barrett, and make her look a bit alien-y. But then I saw Tin Man and realise that holy shit, it’s a Betazoid thing and Trio has them, too. I thought those were just her eyes since I’ve never really seen her out of character.

[Warbodog]

I always noticed them on non-Troi Betazoids, I think I’d assumed that was because Marina Sirtis’ eyes were naturally like that so they made it a trait, but apparently not.

Allegiance: Patrick Stewart lets his metaphorical hair down, pretty enjoyable Twilight Zone style mystery.

Captain’s Holiday: Captain Picard lets his metaphorical hair down, pretty enjoyable Indiana Jones style mystery.

Tin Man: feels like a classic Arthur C Clarke style sci-fi short story imported into Star Trek with the regular cast just observing and Romulans as functional villains, loved it.

Next few excellent.

[GlenTokyo]

Christ, as if it wasn’t bad enough that Discovery is centred around a completely unlikeable character in Michael Burnham, they go and plan a spin off around Phillipa Georgiou who may well be the worst character in any Star Trek ever. I’d rather watch a sitcom based on the continuing adventures of Tom Paris and Janeway’s lizard children.

[Warbodog]

Discovery season 2 looks like a mild improvement. Lighter, maybe not trying to be an edgy Game of Thrones / Torchwood in space so much, more focus on the ensemble (who I mainly like). But it took me three sessions to get through the 1-hour episode, so not a great sign.

People who claim it’s some kind of franchise-ruining abomination have forgotten how bad the last 5-6 years of the Berman era were. It’s not much of an improvement, but Trek’s not really been any good since late 1999.

[GlenTokyo]

For me Enterprise did enough to elevate itself above Discovery, some episodes are fantastic Star Trek episodes not just fantastic Enterprise episodes, most of the characters are likeable, and the Xindi storyline was interesting and a brave choice quite well done mostly. It’s just a bit cheesetastic and Mayweather was acquired from Oak Furniture Land I think.

Discovery has a long way to go. There’s no connection to any character on Discovery for me, they’re so unreal, the character they’ve tried to turn into “us” in Tilly, saying holy shit at everything is so out of universe it takes you out of the show. I honestly can’t say I like any of them. Maybe if they start making it more Star Trek in tone and have a few stories about other less miserable characters I might find some enjoyment in it, but thus far it’s been a hard old slog.

[Author]

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