Star Trek Crap

[Warbodog]

Sorry to lower the tone and for being so early in the morning. But if you’re a fan of ageing sci-fi franchises generally, or a fan of complaining about them, here are some things going on with Star Trek at the moment:

– Star Trek: Short Treks. Out Now! 4 x short episodes (10-15 mins) being released once a month before Discovery returns. Minimal and supplemental, but proper stories rather than DVD-padding minisodes. The second one (Calypso) is the most Trek has intrigued me since the 90s, written by Michael Chabon. I don’t know where you can watch these where you live.

– Discovery season 2 starts in January. Hope it’s good. I found S1 watchable and they’ve already concluded (abandoned) the war arc I didn’t like. Fan service tends to repel rather than attract me, but I have a soft spot for the ‘lost’ Captain Pike era (I probably watched ‘The Cage’ more than any other episode as a kid), so I’m more interested to see their take on that vaguely-defined crew than watching another reboot of Kirk & co.

– Star Trek: Lower Decks. An adult animated sitcom in development focusing on the humdrum lives of Starfleet technicians. Creator Mike McMahan explains, “I want to do a show about the people who put the yellow cartridge in the food replicator so a banana can come out the other end.” Where do they get their crazy ideas from? Maybe the same places Rob and Doug did, it’s not that similar really.

– Picard series in development starring Patrick Stewart. I didn’t find this announcement exciting, because I prefer new things, but I just found out Michael Chabon’s on the writing team, which will help. Excitement may come as details are released.

– Various rumours about other shows or miniseries invariably centred around existing characters and concepts, but I don’t think anything’s been confirmed and may all be uninteresting clickbait.

– Reboot Star Trek 4 is supposedly stuck in development hell, and something about a weird Tarantino proposal. I don’t care about the films any more.

But never mind that tot – best Trek film? I’d probably go with VI, because I love how timely its analogy is at the end of an era, but 1-IV are all classics or comfort watches in their own ways.

Topic

[GlenTokyo]

Another classic wtf casting/character decision, Lee Arenberg played ‘Gral’ in two Star Trek series, they’ve learned you might think, but no, he played Ferengi Gral in DS9 and Tellarite Gral in Enterprise.

They go through the trouble of renaming Robert Duncan McNeill and background artist Vulcan engineer for no reason, but don’t bother coming up with a different name for two characters of different species?

[Warbodog]

Ferengi are probably the worst for duplication, because they look for actors of a certain type. There’s probably an unflattering industry term for that type. Maybe ‘Ferengi.’

Armin Shimerman and Max Grodenchik each played two different Ferengi in TNG before their main roles as Quark and Rom. Seems like most others double or triple up across the years. Then there’s the greater weirdness of Ethan Phillips playing a Ferengi not only before his stint as Neelix, but after.

And aforementioned pangalactic legend Jeffrey Combs.

[GlenTokyo]

Did all the PADDs get left in a hot car during season 7 or is that fact they’re all convex a design decision.

Seems to just appear late on.

[Ben Saunders]

Worf’s gf and that Vulcan lady were played by the same actress?! Whhhaaattt?!

And yeah I gave up and went to sleep mid-Rightful-Heir and haven’t gone back since

[Warbodog]

I forgot, she (Suzie Plakson) plays a female Q at one point as well.

If you count The Animated Series, James Doohan likely has the most characters to his name, since he voiced most of the aliens, including Chekov’s replacement. He voiced the occasional glowing energy thing in TOS too.

Surprised we haven’t got into The Animated Series, there’s lots of fun to have there.

[Ben Saunders]

Yeah he was the voice of mission control or whatever in Assignment Earth and possibly the Guardian of Forever.

I watched four episodes of The Animated Series and I feel like it blew it’s load with the second episode about Spock’s childhood and was never going to reach those heights again. Everything feels so rushed in 25 mins

[Warbodog]

The other good episode is Larry Niven importing one of his Ringworld short stories with no effort made to adapt it to the established Star Trek universe. Notable for being the only Kirk-era story to not have Kirk in too.

If you were reading the episode novelisations in the 70s before home video, some of the TAS episodes would seem just as good as the average TOS, without being ruined by the laziness and ineptitude of Filmation, presided over by a colour-blind director so greys become pink at random.

The not-good episodes are entertaining in their own way too, especially if you binge the series so you get the maximum impact of the endless animation reuse. All those pterodactyls.

[Warbodog]

Respect to the latest Discovery episode for showing ‘previously on Star Trek’ footage straight from the 1960s with the original actors, design aesthetic and non-remastered clunky model Enterprise (which the Berman era seemed ashamed of and would always replace with CG to fit in). It’s not a historical rewrite, it’s an update. And a TV show.

[GlenTokyo]

To me though all this desperately cramming in references is a bit like burning someone’s house down and giving them an Elddis Mistral and a £50 voucher for Asda. Yes, I have a roof over my head some natty George clothing and a bit of food, but it’s not really recompense for the original issue.

[Warbodog]

I do wish they’d cut down on the references and go out on their own more, but this feels like a continuation of what Enterprise season 4 was doing more than anything, just shunted forward to the Pike era. I don’t think Discovery S2 or Enterprise S4 are peak Trek at all, but more worthwhile to me than Braga-era Voyager & Enterprise. I haven’t stopped watching out of apathy at least.

[GlenTokyo]

As bad as Enterprise or Voyager get though, for me they still have the advantage of having likeable characters somewhere, Discovery has the most vacuous set of characters I’ve ever seen. If they said they were going to kill off Geordi during TNG I’d have been writing to CBS, if they said everyone on board the Discovery was going to get flushed into space and vaporised in a supernova I wouldn’t give two shits, I’d welcome it in fact.

I just don’t care at all. To be honest I just wish they’d stop because the more they muddy the waters the harder it’ll be for any future series. It’ll be like Mass Effect, they made the universe so difficult to exist in because of 3, they had to abandon their entire universe, get new characters and set it in a different galaxy just to avoid the continuity nightmare.

[Warbodog]

Ah well, I like most of the characters and enjoy seeing them every week. But it’s kind of a Stargate Universe deal where the things those characters are getting up to aren’t all that interesting. Which is strange, considering how epic those things technically are.

[GlenTokyo]

I think they fail on a basic level to be in any way relatable, or interesting for who they are rather than their thing.

It’s like if the writers for STD wrote TNG, Riker would be a Klingon agent from a separatist group trying to undermine the high council, Data would have metal plates on his face and exposed wiring and every episode would feature a feat of strength, and Troi would be able to melt people’s brains.

Part of the appeal of Star Trek for me is that the characters are just people for the most part in a fantastical setting.

It’s fine that people like it, I gave it a fair shake though and don’t. Still, there’s loads of other Trek to watch so I’ll make do with that.

[Warbodog]

>STD

They haven’t reached 500 films yet, but that gag will be a riot when they get there!

Pedantry about abbreviation consistency in a Star Trek thread on Ganymede & Titan, whatever next?

I’d be more down on Discovery if Enterprise hadn’t already broken things by going prequel. If Enterprise was my Red Dwarf VII disappointment, the JJ films would be my VIII (Beyond = Cassandra because it was quite good) and Discovery my Back to Earth, ‘salright. If the Picard series can be Red Dwarf X, that would be great.

[Dave]

I’m really enjoying Discovery, I think it’s a fun show that doesn’t take itself too seriously and is one of the few current shows not to fall victim to the Netflix problem of stretching everything plot development out way beyond its natural lifespan.

Also, it’s always fun to read the utterly inconsistent moans of Star Trek fans complaining about how it’s too different to the original Star Trek despite being set in the same era, then it’s sticking too close to it and leaning on nostalgia too much, then it’s too po-faced, then it’s too light, then the characters are all dull and uninteresting, then the characters are all too over-the-top and broad…

It’s almost as though longtime fans would complain about a new show no matter what.

[Warbodog]

Is it inconsistent, or just different criticisms coming from different people like me and GlenTokyo?

There’s been so much Trek (700+ episodes before Discovery) that it’s hard for them to do much that doesn’t unintentionally remind of things that have happened before (season 1’s war was like a bloodier Deep Space Nine, season 2’s future apocalypse is like an arc in Enterprise). I’m glad they’re not doing another planet-of-the-week series at least, that was played out by the end of The Next Generation.

I think there’s way too much reliance on continuity and references, which I don’t enjoy in anything, but if they are going to do that, I’m much happier that it’s the formerly obscure Pike era than the overdone Kirk era.

Not the best, not the worst, and getting better. For this long-time fan anyway.

[Warbodog]

Searching the thread for opinions, it looks like 3 people are for Discovery (Dave probably enjoying it more than me and Quinn?) and 4 quite strongly against. All long-time fans except Dave. So not really as simple as fans hating the new series for being new, although that is probably how it looks online generally. I haven’t read or watched any reviews since it’s been airing, but a lot of the fan response was over-the-top toxic before the thing even came out.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I really didn’t enjoy series 1 of Discovery, just could not get into the Klingon’s or the war at all. I did however like the Mirror Universe stuff, that was cool

I’m generally enjoying each weeks episodes of series 2, and I much prefer the story arc this year. It’s actually got me interested. Pike is fantastic. We’re getting more time with more subsidary characters – where Disco started out as more of a focus on 3 or 4 characters, this is feeling like a bit more of an ensemble with Michael still carrying the lead role. There’s been some brilliant adventure of the week episodes driven by the main plot, especially at the start. It’s generally a joy to watch.

I don’t care it looks different (its 2019 get over it) and I don’t care that it isn’t just planet hoping and getting into fights with special anomalies, everyone would be bored if they did that, as Warbofrog said, that had run it’s course by the end of TNG and especially by the end of Voyager.

I LOVED this weeks “previously on” acknowledging that all that stuff happened, and now we’re 50+ years later, yes we have actors, yes we have a new design, but this is a straight continuation of a story that was filmed in 65, not aired until the 80s, but has been considered canon due to it’s references throughout Trek.

I actually re-watched The Cage before this weeks episode knowing it was going to plan a major role in it, and it reminded me why I never got to the end of series 1 of TOS because those shows are so bloody boring and slow.

I know people hold up TOS as unquestionably the best Trek, but seriously, at this point there is sooooo much more Trek that is soooo much different to that, that TOS is really the odd one out.

I don’t understand the complaining about the use of reference in Discovery. All Trek shows make references to the others at some point. They share a universe and are all part of the same Federation and space exploration team. Of course things will cross over. No-one is complaining about a new Picard series, so why complain when Discovery re-uses characters or references stories from things that were last shown 50 years ago?

I also really really enjoy the Kelvinverse films.

That’s all I have to say for now. Sorry. Bye bye. Sorry. Bye.

[Warbodog]

Enterprise and Discovery have been heavier on the continuity and established characters than TNG, DS9 and Voyager that crafted their own worlds, some going to other sides of the galaxy to find new stories. But thinking back, there probably is more referencing in the 90s than I remembered (spoilers) – Voyager had recurring TNG characters later on and DS9 had the mirror universe. But I didn’t really like those things back then either, so at least I’m consistent.

I like TOS but don’t watch much of it for pleasure, there’s only around 5-10 I’d really care about watching again. I probably would’ve preferred a series with Pike & co rather than starting again with Kirk, but then we wouldn’t have the TOS films which are some of my favourite Trek and much stronger than the old series (same can’t be said for TNG’s films sadly).

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

The mirror universe stuff in DS9 does get tiresome, it’s fun maybe once but when it starts to happen once a series it can get in the bin

The TOS films are far superior to the series, but I still prefer TNG crew. Maybe because I was raised on them I don’t know.

[Dave]

Yes, just to be clear my comments were about the larger fandom responses that I’ve read online, not directed to people in this thread specifically. No offence intended!

[GlenTokyo]

Doesn’t really matter that it’s set nearby to Kirk Trek when the tone is so different. A dog and a cat sat in the same box are not the same.

When it comes to redesigning and recasting etc, I have no issue, obviously people get old and die, and for example the Enterprise redesign didn’t bother me at all because it had a recognisable layout but you could make a leap of faith because it looked more like our technology, loads of buttons, flat panel screens.

Discovery’s redesign is too far into the JJ realm to exist in the same universe as the TV shows, I get that you have to update it but do we really need Tony Stark style holographics?

It’s not like it makes me angry when I see it, just intensely disappointed.

[GlenTokyo]

Finished TNG now, fantastic. I really enjoyed 5, 6 and 7, whereas conventional wisdom would suggest shows weaken towards the end.

Anyway, moved onto DS9 now, onto season 2 and look who it is, Tim motherfunking Russ, as a Klingon. Tim Russ is Star Trek.

[Warbodog]

That Tim Russ episode is the inevitable decline after a very strong run of episodes, I think (Duet to The Siege) where DS9 finally started living up to its premise. Season 2 is definitely better than season one, not so many pound-shop-TNG possession/technobabble plots any more.

[GlenTokyo]

The main thing I’m enjoying more about season 2 over season 1 is the improvement in picture quality. Christ knows what they filmed season 1 on, but even in SD you can see a massive improvement.

I probably haven’t watched DS9 since it was still regularly on terrestrial TV, same with TNG really, I had the odd series on VHS and DVD but I was more of a Voyager person, I remember seeing the adverts for the start of VOY so it was “my Star Trek” I suppose.

Also I bloody love the runabouts and general special effects in DS9, some great shots. Much more adventurous than your starship based series, saying that though, I hate that they added hilariously oversized spacewalking engineers on the opening titles, so that’s a blot on the FX teams copybook.

[Warbodog]

Good to know about the picture quality. I only bought season 3+ on DVD at the time, because the sets were expensive so I had to be selective, and those always looked fine to me. Just a bit fuzzy around light sources.

The Defiant’s scale is all over the place once that shows up, but it’s not something I really noticed when watching.

[GlenTokyo]

It’s much better, it’s obviously SD but apart from a bit of vaseline esque glowing and a smidge of chromatic aberration on some of the establishing shots it’s fine.

Image quality wise, season 1 looked like it was shot on one inch tape by BBC Manchester in the late 80s, 2 is like it was shot on a decent digital cassette format by the BBC in the late 90s.

Would love to see them get the TNG HD makeover though, eagerly anticipating that documentary to see how it looks, and see how much support that drums up.

[GlenTokyo]

The list of potential actors for Star Trek in the late 80s to mid 90s really was just a post it with a few names on it wasn’t it?

Just watched an episode of DS9, and the child actor is the girl with the imaginary friend from TNG, and I’m almost certain that her mother is the alien scientist from VOY Body and Soul, although unfortunately it’s just a background artist part so she’s not named. I’m pretty sure though.

It’s really odd, I suppose you wouldn’t watch them in the manner we do today, binge watching multiple series in close proximity, but still I can’t imagine say, Sean Bean being cast as another character in a later series of Game Of Thrones.

It’s quite charming in a way, they’re “The Star Trek Players” and who knows who they’ll be week to week.

[Warbodog]

Same thing happened in The X-Files, you’d have someone play a one-off role who they liked and cast again as a major recurring character shortly after, so it’s distracting when you see the earlier episode again. Terry O’Quinn was their version of Jeffrey Combs, playing three different characters in X-Files who look the same plus a major recurring role in spin-off Millennium.

^ Somehow not the same guy. Didn’t even bother to shave.

[Ben Saunders]

Doctor Who is great for re-using actors. Peter Miles played Nyder in Genesis of the Daleks, Dr Charles Lawrence in Doctor Who and the Silurians and Professor Whitaker in Invasion of the Dinosaurs, within 4 years. Martin Jarvis plays Hilio in The Web Planet, Butler in Invasion of the Dinosaurs and the governer of Varos in Vengeance On Varos. Freema Agyeman, Karen Gillan and of course Peter Capaldi have all played multiple roles in New Who, as have Mark Gatiss and Eve Myles. Lalla Ward appeared in the final story of Season 16 of Classic Who before going on to play Romana in 17 and 18. Colin Baker playing Maxill before The Sixth Doctor. Clive Swift, Nicholas Courtney, the list goes on, and on.

[GlenTokyo]

DS9 reference watch.

”Distant Voices”

Not only a concept very similar to Confidence and Paranoia, with actual reference to those self same aspects of character, but a reference to another BBC sitcom that was big at the time. Within a minute or so one character says “One Foot in the Grave” and another “I don’t believe it”. Coincidence? Surely not.

[Warbodog]

You’re storming through! Soon to hit the ‘Improbable Cause’ two-parter, which for me has always been the turning point where DS9 becomes great.

[Warbodog]

“Odo, you embody my suspicions and fears. And Dax, to me you’ve always represented confidence and a sense of adventure.”

Yeah, that is similar. I never made the connection and it doesn’t seem to have been picked up on before. Plus, “Confidence” is played by American Cat (II) and “Paranoia” is drippy like a yoghurt, blatant.

[Warbodog]

[GlenTokyo]

Kira calls him a paranoid just before that exchange between Julian and them all. With the Jupiter Mining Corporation and Diva Droid given berths on the promenade I wonder if it was just the set designers or the writing team that knew of Red Dwarf.

I’m barrelling through for a couple of reasons, mostly because I’m really enjoying it but also because I don’t like things to drag on, it’s like when I play games, 60 hours in a week, sacrifice a bit of sleep and use all my free time.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Michael Okuda was the main design guy across all of Trek right? And it’d be him or his staff that snuck those little details in

[GlenTokyo]

Everyone thinks the season 4 theme remix is appalling right?

Worse than Enterprise’s remix and that’s saying something.

[Warbodog]

Don’t know what everyone thinks, but it is too fast, even if it’s the main version I’m used to. As a syndicated series, DS9 had minimal network interference compared to Voyager and Enterprise on UPN, but most of that interference was concentrated at the start of season 4. This probably included a memo to speed up the theme tune to make it more exciting. Others were the new character introduction and to focus more on that famous old-school alien race rather than the new ones they’d been developing.

Fortunately, Ira Behr & co managed to work with the studio’s demands and make DS9 even better in spite of them (they gradually get back to the original plan by season 5). The season 4 opener might be my favourite episode of all, not so much for the main story but for all those little character scenes. Quark & Garak’s laboured root beer simile, Bashir & O’Brien pissing about trying to pop peas into their mouths oblivious to the wider events happening around them, it’s like a second pilot for the rest of DS9. The “proper” DS9 most fans think of. With a silly sped-up theme tune.

[GlenTokyo]

I read that it was a conscious decision to make the series feel more alive, similar to Red Dwarf I suppose for series III. It was no longer about the loneliness in both, Red Dwarf just dispensed with the more dramatic elements and DS9 wasn’t a half empty outpost trying to stabilise itself and the Bajoran people, it was thriving so they added more ships to the titles and ruined the theme.

That could be cobblers obviously but who knows. It’s not that it’s sped up really though, and it actually starts quite well with a bit more orchestration, it’s the fact that the background squelchy bass stuff is at a completely different tempo to the theme. It’s like two songs playing at once and it’s horrible, which is a shame because they’re great opening titles.

If I read any of the above on this thread I can only apologise, my memory is not what it once was haha

[GlenTokyo]

It was a great character episode I agree, although I was somewhat destracted by O’Brien having grown a mullet between seasons haha..

I think what I’m enjoying most about DS9 is that you’re rewarded for your viewing with the little plot points that they don’t keep ramming in your face but crop up naturally and you go “aaaaahhh yes, I remember so-and-so said this”, other TV series and especially TV series today fall over themselves pointing little things out to you to make themselves appear to have a clever and well developed universe, so much so that the little things end up being the things that everyone talks about after the show.

[Warbodog]

The Dominion first being referenced in a Ferengi episode of all places shows how much you can’t afford to skip “filler” DS9 episodes (except most of season 1).

It’s not a rigidly-plotted novel like a Babylon 5, they sometimes get inspired to spin a whole character arc out of a throwaway piece of dialogue in an earlier episode and they adapt to what works as it goes along. I doubt there were too many people missing the heavy Bajoran focus after season 2, keeping that up would have been duller (even if I some of those episodes are good).

[Warbodog]

(DS9 spoilers if anyone still cares)

Watching select clips from late season 3, when things really kicked off.

“After today, the only real threat to us from the Alpha Quadrant are the Klingons and the Federation, and I doubt that either of them will be a threat for much longer.”

So even though the subsequent Klingon arc feels a bit forced and out of place, it still fits their plan. They planned it. Probably just would have been less prominent if they hadn’t needed to justify bringing in a new character.

[Ridley]

I’m slowly making my way through a rewatch of Voyager while viewing DS9 and Discovery for the first (and likely only) time.

Also DS9 spoilers:

Having bashirisshapeshifter two-parter right before an episode about using the character as a template to make copies of them throughout the quieter parts of Starfleet is not great planning.

[Warbodog]

(Spoilers cont.)

The Bashir double-whammy is one of the prime examples of their making-it-up-as-we-go-along approach not being so successful, since both twists cause problems or at least mild irritations in hindsight (especially for that Confidence & Paranoia episode discussed earlier). The actor wasn’t aware of either revelation until he was filming the episodes, so don’t bother looking for any subtle foreshadowing in his earlier performances.

I don’t really mind, because In Purgatory’s Shadow / By Inferno’s Light is so good. I overwatched that two-parter on video, season five is so damned tense.

Seems like a lot of people found DS9 off-putting at the time (that’s partly the idea) and are only coming to it now. I came in just when it was getting good in season 3, so got to skip the shaky seasons and was hooked right away (caught up later).

[Plastic Percy]

(Spoilers)

Yeah, the Bashirling thing doesn’t make sense in retrospect. We’re led to presume that it’s this Bashir who performed the delicate brain surgery on Captain Sisko in ‘Rapture’ and didn’t take the opportunity to kill him with a slip of the scalpel.

[GlenTokyo]

Just an unrelated point, I’ll come back and read the spoilers when I’ve finished watching DS9 but I was just thinking, when Voyager got launched to the Delta quadrant, why didn’t they try to go into the Gamma quadrant and use the wormhole? The first episode of Voyager is on DS9, so the wormhole is open for business, Janeway knows this, and the Delta quadrant is so much closer to the Gamma quadrant than the Alpha. In fact on the Star Trek star charts, Voyager ends up at 1 o’clock on the outer rim of the Delta quadrant and the wormhole is at 10 o’clock in the Gamma. A long way still, but closer than going through the Delta and Beta to get to the Alpha.

There’s the Dominion to throw a spanner in the works but it could have been a plot point, maybe they had to turn around or summat.

Anyway, just a thought.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I’ve read answers to this questions before. One of the prevailing thoughts is that it isn’t in the direction they need to go.

Until the discovery of the Bajoran Wormhole, all other wormholes have proven to be unstable. They have only known about the Bajoran Wormhole for a couple of years, if not less, by the time Voyager is stranded in the Delta Quadrant. They have no reason to believe that just because it has remained stable longer than previous wormholes, that it will continue to remain stable after the decades it would take to reach it. Whilst it is closer to where Voyager is stranded, it’s not close enough to risk it, it is still tens of thousands of light years in the wrong direction. If they were to get there and find it collapsed, they would have wasted so much valuable time to get home.

They also have no reason to believe they won’t find another short cut back. The Caretaker’s array and the wormhole are two recent discoveries that have proved to be able to transport ships vast distances in seconds. Between Voyager and Earth it’s possible they will find another such shortcut, and if not, at least they’re heading in the right direction and will be home eventually.

As it is, they do discover technologies and beings capable of shortening their journey, so they made the correct choice.

[GlenTokyo]

Surely Janeway would know about the Prophets and Sisko and the wormhole being stable, or more stable and more real than any potential wormhole? Starfleet obviously believe in the stability of the wormhole because they’ve commited men and equipment. You’d go for facts now than potential later surely. I get the heading in the right direction for home bit but in reality, if they travelled at max warp constantly which is unrealistic, they’d all be either dead or well past 100 when they got home.

Anyway, it wouldn’t have worked because they’d have been destroyed by the Dominion, but it would have seemed less of a cop out/more synergistic to go through the Bajoran wormhole than join the Borg version of the M1, to me anyway.

[Ben Saunders]

We’re coming up on a month now of me just not bothering to watch Trek

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Point is, just because something is stable now, doesn’t mean it will be in decades time, especially when all evidence points to wormholes collapsing fairly frequently.

As for the wormhole aliens, who is to say they wouldn’t throw a shit fit and close it off.

Sisko would be long dead by the time they reach it too.

If you’re lost, going the most reliable route is much more sensible than taking a chance at a shortcut that wouldn’t save that much time in the long run

They’re going to be old/dead when they get back whatever happens unless they can find a much quicker way

[Author]

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